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The_Piper

Get rid of rule #5?

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Maybe it's the time to start another discussion about illegal multiplay, rule #5, maybe because of some stuff i read in channel #6 during the last days..

 

So, what do you think, is rule #5 helpful to prevent cheating or is it more causing players to leave, or, not even force them to continue to play, after they created a char and played for a while?

 

Opinions?

 

Discussions?

 

Feel free to post your opinions here, the NSA is watching you anyways, even aluminium foil hats cant stop them :P

 

Piper

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I think I'd be OK with, perhaps, modifying/relaxing it in some way. I'm definitely against getting rid of it entirely. I'd be fine with 'fair' trade between alts but this has a lot of potential for abuse and would probably be pretty time consuming for the mods to enforce properly.

 

I think, though, it would not hurt the game to allow a player to make a one-time gift to a new alt, with some cap on the value (say, 1Mgc?)

 

Z

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I think the opposite - it is too lenient and it hurts the game. We know items are sold on off-market site and it drives up costs.

I think, again it is my opinion, that all alts should be flagged as such with who owns 'main' character.

This helps prevent new cheating alts to get around bans on characters who have cheated players before.

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Just an attempt to clarify:

 

Rule 5 does not forbid alts, it is against multiplay where the alt benefits the main.

  • Hence rule 5 does nothing against harvest alts that bring in gc (converted to $$) for the owner.(hurts economy)
  • It also does not prevent law-abiding players to have an alt to hold a guild, test some different build or just give some variety in game-play (player fun)
  • It does make it difficult for families/housemates to play (they cannot interact), but these situation can be solved if players contact the mods.
  • It does not prevent banned troublemakers from creating a new char (alt of locked char) to cause new trouble with (mods headache)
  • It does not prevent a scammer/bagjumper/griefer from creating a new char to cause anonymous mayhem (players headache). This is legal as long as the main is not on an no-alt restriction.

Given the things stated above, does rule 5 do what we want it to do? If not, what would be better?

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Maxine, that's actually the wrong question I think.

The rules are made by radu according to his ideas, so the question should be:

Does rule 5 do what radu wants it to do?

 

Taking your points in order:

- How do harvesting alts (under the current rules) hurt the economy? They don't add gc to the game, only resources, which should in theory lower the market price of harvestables... And how would that change when rule 5 disappears?

- That wouldn't change if rule 5 disappears

- An extra explanation somewhere clearly visible with the game policy would perhaps help there. If rule 5 disappears, this problem would as well.

- Again, no change when rule 5 disappears, and frankly, I don't see any working solution to prevent new character creation, short of IP ban (perhaps if you could ban on MAC address, but I'm not sure that's possible).

- Same remarks as the previous point. In addition, there are cases where the main got a name change and kept straight on causing mayhem (with the benefit of the attributes (s)he had)

 

On the other hand, when you allow (unlimited) alts, what would that do to the economy and player interaction? It would not be that difficult to set up a series of alts to create a nice mixing pipeline for some of the more common items (keeping it going is less easy...).

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Personally, I'd rather see rule 5 go and blackmarket made illegal. I have far less problem with people benefitting from their own work on multiple characters they created and leveled/grew themselves, than all these overpowered pre-made uber characters getting recycled, and all the gc sales. I would never agree with eliminating rule 5 with the current black market allowed to run unchecked.

 

For the most part, this is a social game. Most people are social and will still continue to interact and rely on others to buy/sell.

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If you eliminate rule 5 then players can create an alt to buying from / sell to stores.

Every player gets 10 free pick points even if they do it with bags.

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What saxum said. Also there would be a penalty to those that invested pps/hydro into nexus. If you eliminated rule #5, it would make sense to create 1 potion char, 1 craft char, 1 harvest char, etc.

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I think a few changes are worth trying...

 

First I would remove rule #5. Then I would limit every IP address to 1 free account and then charge $5 per month (or $50 per year) per alts per IP address. now a lot of people will say, "my brother and i play on the same IP address!?!?!??!!!!", and we already have something in place to work with that, and that is the white list. charge $2 per application to be put on the white list where you and your brother, sister, mom, dad, or who ever plays on your IP address. If for any reason you are thought to be the same person or you start shearing accounts then you are ban from the white list or any further attempts to be put on the white list. now people will also say to this idea "i don't want to have to be limited in the game by paying money for a free game", to them I say STOP BEING A *****!!! and we should also put in the following opportunity for people to not have to use RL money!

 

Enriched Essence(all except ELEs)= $1 usd trade in value

Enriched Life Essence= $.50 usd trade in value

Binding and serpent stones= $1 usd trade in value

Rostogol stone= $3 usd trade in value

 

this will allow people who don't want to use there real life money to have alts and will also remove more of the items from the game witch will allow for more being brought in by real money spenders...

 

also i DON"T agree with removing/banning black market, it brings in more people who do spend money in the game and they DO spend money threw radu and the not all there money on the black market... the black market is slowly dieing however the account/toon market allows people who don't have a whole lot of time but who do have a whole lot of money to find a home in EL and not be turned off of EL

 

I think the changes I have talked about will help the game bring in more, NEEDED, money as well as help cut down on rule 5 bans

 

If you eliminate rule 5 then players can create an alt to buying from / sell to stores.

Every player gets 10 free pick points even if they do it with bags.

 

not true, everyone in the game has at least 1 friend who can buy then stuff from shops if they get antisocial... LOTS of people don't like the thought of neg perks... i myself have removed all but 1 neg perk and that last 1 neg perk ill remove when i get a chance

Edited by Orick

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Players with anti-social already can do their "buying from store" (I suppose that's NPCs) through friends or bots, the only things that would really get easier is selling to NPC, which is afaik mostly relevant to mixers (and even then, only for a few items).

 

Making the black market illegal seems rather difficult to enforce, same as a ban on creating new characters. And adding a rule that cannot be (efficiently) enforced is worse than

no rule: if there's one rule that can be ignored without repercussions, others will also be ignored or at least bent out of shape (potentially more mod hassle).

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I don't think black market can or would be enforced any more or less efficiently than rule 5. Neither is or would be perfect, ie relying on game mechanics to make it not possible to do, and can only be enforced when we are alerted to a need to investigate. No alarm goes off when somebody multies, it requires one of many triggers to research it.

 

Edit:

1. Any rule enforced results in "mod hassle" anyway.

2. I think the way to approach it is to lay out what the problems are (economy, bored maxed-out high-level characters, etc) and then list what could solve that problem. Then look at those solutions and see if they are feasible, and if the end result would have enough improvement gain to accept that they aren't going to please/affect/catch 100% of the people.

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Personally, I'd rather see rule 5 go and blackmarket made illegal. I have far less problem with people benefitting from their own work on multiple characters they created and leveled/grew themselves, than all these overpowered pre-made uber characters getting recycled, and all the gc sales. I would never agree with eliminating rule 5 with the current black market allowed to run unchecked.

 

For the most part, this is a social game. Most people are social and will still continue to interact and rely on others to buy/sell.

 

This

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Personally, I'd rather see rule 5 go and blackmarket made illegal. I have far less problem with people benefitting from their own work on multiple characters they created and leveled/grew themselves, than all these overpowered pre-made uber characters getting recycled, and all the gc sales. I would never agree with eliminating rule 5 with the current black market allowed to run unchecked.

 

For the most part, this is a social game. Most people are social and will still continue to interact and rely on others to buy/sell.

 

This

This is more or less my point of view and the reason why i started this thread.

 

If ppl do level chars/alts on their own and do not macro, let them do it, who cares, it doesnt hurt the game (or not that much IMO).

 

Getting rid of the black market and evil char buyers would of course be really nice, but honestly said, i have no clue, how to really do and enforce that :(

 

Piper

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Personally, I'd rather see rule 5 go and blackmarket made illegal. I have far less problem with people benefitting from their own work on multiple characters they created and leveled/grew themselves, than all these overpowered pre-made uber characters getting recycled, and all the gc sales. I would never agree with eliminating rule 5 with the current black market allowed to run unchecked.

 

For the most part, this is a social game. Most people are social and will still continue to interact and rely on others to buy/sell.

 

This

 

agreed

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so, ill try to describe my situation now. I got really bored with my main char (dubro) now. not much stuff worth to do, so im thinking about making another char (tank probably) my bro would like to back to el too (different ip). but i just cant transfer mystorage to my new char, so all i can do is do some "blackmarket" stuff, sell to some1 and buy back from different person later. but i dont want it, i just want to play on diferent account. also, its posible that my bro or i will log sometimes on each other ip (maybe willdo stuff together like instances) BUT WE WONT BE PLAYING ON BOTH CHARS ON SAME IP SAME TIME. anyway we will need to trade (breaking rule 5). The game is dieing, but some rules making it to die even faster, Sorry for grammar mistakes :)

Edited by DuBro

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Ooooh goody this old chestnut again....

 

As perhaps the most active high level all rounder - I could gain a lot from this....

 

Never mind creating an alt and taking anti - take anti and create lots of alts :- raz_leather, raz_pofs, raz_thread, raz_arrows etc... so that means no more bothering with ch3, bots or indeed any other players - just more and more grinding! (no thank you)

 

Better yet - create an alt - transfer my 20M+ storage and you have a 10 minute old character with huge storage and resources -spend a day or two mixing stuff doing the odd daily, pop off a couple of magic day stones - get no fail restore - and you have a 'fun' low level invance char.

 

Can't see how either of those two scenarios help EL in any way at all (or indeed any changes to rule 5) ... In fact it would make the situation for EL worse as I see it - the market is fucked, we are haemoraging existing players and not getting any new ones.

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Ooooh goody this old chestnut again....

 

As perhaps the most active high level all rounder - I could gain a lot from this....

 

Never mind creating an alt and taking anti - take anti and create lots of alts :- raz_leather, raz_pofs, raz_thread, raz_arrows etc... so that means no more bothering with ch3, bots or indeed any other players - just more and more grinding! (no thank you)

 

Better yet - create an alt - transfer my 20M+ storage and you have a 10 minute old character with huge storage and resources -spend a day or two mixing stuff doing the odd daily, pop off a couple of magic day stones - get no fail restore - and you have a 'fun' low level invance char.

 

Can't see how either of those two scenarios help EL in any way at all (or indeed any changes to rule 5) ... In fact it would make the situation for EL worse as I see it - the market is fucked, we are haemoraging existing players and not getting any new ones.

BUT, now ilts only way - the same- sellstuff and buy it back on new char.

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Never mind creating an alt and taking anti - take anti and create lots of alts :- raz_leather, raz_pofs, raz_thread, raz_arrows etc... so that means no more bothering with ch3, bots or indeed any other players - just more and more grinding! (no thank you)

 

If this is unappealing to you, why would you do it? Nobody would be forcing you to do this.

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Removing rule #5 would employ a game where the advantage is to those with a better PC. Whoever can handle more clients wins. Sure, you may say that because of mini events, multiple harvesting accounts would be somewhat hard to manage. I do not think so, I was able to manage 4 characters just fine. Not to mention the possibility of botting, which I am sure many would at least try - and maybe a few would even succeed.

 

Some have correctly pointed out that rule 5, even now, can be toggled with. Some may sell stuff for $, and then buy stuff on other characters using those $, thus basically transferring gold from one character to another.

 

Even by disallowing black market trades, people will still feel the need to play more characters at once, transforming this game into an even bigger grind fest. People would train with one character while harvesting with others, gaining both experience, gold and levels in different areas. Black market trades did not introduce new gold into the game, they just transferred existing gold from one player to another. They only brought in resources, resources for which there was/is a huge demand. I think the problem of EL at the moment is that it is focused on just one thing : hydro. Hydro is the game's final goal, whoever gets more hydro and thus pick points wins. The resources that help you get more hydro are the ones that are highly demanded.

 

Overall, I think EL needs to introduce new end goals, gold sinking goals that would help players by giving them something new to work for, as well as remove gold from the game. Removing rule 5 is very stupid imo, especially in a game like EL. The idea of this rule removal has come and gone, and people realized up until now that it is a stupid idea. I do not know why people keep bringing this up, instead of figuring out ways of balancing the existing economy - a thing which could never happen if rule 5 was to be removed.

Edited by Soul

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Ooooh goody this old chestnut again....

 

As perhaps the most active high level all rounder - I could gain a lot from this....

 

Never mind creating an alt and taking anti - take anti and create lots of alts :- raz_leather, raz_pofs, raz_thread, raz_arrows etc... so that means no more bothering with ch3, bots or indeed any other players - just more and more grinding! (no thank you)

 

Better yet - create an alt - transfer my 20M+ storage and you have a 10 minute old character with huge storage and resources -spend a day or two mixing stuff doing the odd daily, pop off a couple of magic day stones - get no fail restore - and you have a 'fun' low level invance char.

 

Can't see how either of those two scenarios help EL in any way at all (or indeed any changes to rule 5) ... In fact it would make the situation for EL worse as I see it - the market is fucked, we are haemoraging existing players and not getting any new ones.

 

What happens when you have 5 bots running the market Raz :)

 

Im against this idea to.. but just my 2 cents, if alts were able to trade with there main, the market would get worse, since they will get gold faster and get what they want, hence stuff would be in more demand, and prices will rise higher. (Actually can go both ways, but i see this as the higher probability).

Edited by ISnipe

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Never mind creating an alt and taking anti - take anti and create lots of alts :- raz_leather, raz_pofs, raz_thread, raz_arrows etc... so that means no more bothering with ch3, bots or indeed any other players - just more and more grinding! (no thank you)

 

If this is unappealing to you, why would you do it? Nobody would be forcing you to do this.

 

A side effect of this could be that new/low level players have no market for their stuff (harvested or mixed, like FE):

much easier and more reliable for the higher levels to have some alts harvesting while another mixes, so why bother with trading/@3?

 

I have no idea how many would start such 'factories' but the possibility would clearly be there.

 

@ISnipe: the difference is that a bot can't do anything but trade (no harvesting, no mixing), so he still needs to get the ingredients and mix

(and bots aren't really useful when you get to trades of several 1000s of an item)

Edited by revi

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Soul, being able to run multiple clients well on your computer does not mean you can actually focus on all of those clients very well. I have ran 3 clients at one time in a non-multi-play fashion and I tell you that you get really inefficient doing so. Your efficiency turns into about 1.5 characters' output tops.

 

I have mentioned this before, but I would much prefer a non-moderator based punishment for multi-play if radu feels it is necessary to punish folk for multi-play. Ideally, this would be some pickpocket that shows up and steal a random easy to snatch item sometime in the next game day if are detected as trading with someone from your IP address. There would be a 10% chance of the dude showing up. He would probably show up when you seem afk. He might avoid storage and temples. It would be alot less stress than having the mods have to track stuff and families and friends being punished for having families and friends without telling mods. Who really wants to track all those real life relations anyway?

 

I agree that it is more damaging to have characters sold than it is to have multi-play.

 

About the thief idea, lets say you have one character mixing and another mining. Each trade being a 10% chance of a theft. after 10 trades/bag-accesses, you have probably been robbed 1 time and as much as 10 times after the end of 6 hours. Another way to work it is that you get +10% chance of theft for each same IP trade/bag-trade and every hour it goes down 10%. That meaning that over a 10 hour period after 10 flagged trades in one hour, you have a 100%,90%,80%,70%,60%,50%,40%,30%,20%,10% chance of being robbed of some easy to steal item or multiple of that item.

 

By easy to steal, I mean things that are not equipped or they are in a bag. The total weight would be under 500 emu.

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Soul, being able to run multiple clients well on your computer does not mean you can actually focus on all of those clients very well. I have ran 3 clients at one time in a non-multi-play fashion and I tell you that you get really inefficient doing so. Your efficiency turns into about 1.5 characters' output tops.

Thats not the point - you only need to play one actively - you only play the alt between spawns etc. All you use the alrt for is walking to and from NPC or to and from harvestables. It's how the gold farmers (boo - hiss) run / used to run multiple chars.

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