Whats up with fire essences?

[Aislinn]

I made 499/500 (then couldn't stand sitting there anymore and went to do something different).

 

The speed was barely noticeably slower. A whole lot of fuss over nothing, imo.

[Sistema]

People, is losing one or two ingredients per 100 or 150 or 200 worth bitching about? Geeez....

 

And I agree with the over production. Even though FEs are the very first thing that is made in the Alchemy skill, it's still much too common. And more FEs mean more bars, more rings, more armour/swords, etc. And not to mention the EFE's which enter the game through the shop.

 

I'm pretty sure that all that the creators want is the balance of the economy, we should thank them for their hard work instead of getting ourselves banned...

 

 

- Sistema.

[Guest Wyteniz]

In my opinion this is a good change because the price of FE most probably will go up.

[iktor]

 

I'm pretty sure that all that the creators want is the balance of the economy, we should thank them for their hard work instead of getting ourselves banned...

 

 

 

Agreed, I appreciate the hard work put in by the creators as I hope all who play do. However, does posting a thread mean that I am trying to get myself banned? I certainly hope not. I am curious as to why some things are taking place, surely we are able to ask questions....

 

To this end i have another question. I understand Ent's point of having too many items in the game, I myself have 2 full sets of iron plate in storage (and yet these were the best armour available only a short time ago), and i am sure some ppl have plenty more than that. On the other hand, manufacture already seems to be a slow skill to level (i think largely due to the large req's of ingredients to gather). Will the manufacture exp for items be changed or is this to stay the same as well?

Edit: although not a crafter i guess this may also apply to them as they too have a fair need for fire essences.

 

P.S. I AM NOT trying to upset the creators/mods, I simply have questions that i wish to ask. If they are not happy with me asking I would prefer that they told me and I will ask nothing further!

Edited July 22, 2006 by iktor

[Entropy]

Just asking questions is OK. What is not OK is when people are smart asses about it.

 

To answer your question about more manufacturing exp, I don't think so. This change is not going to affect the manufacturing skill that much at all.

However, there will be various new items to manufacture and some price adjustments, so yeah, some things will change slightly.

[iktor]

Cool as thanks Ent, we always look forward to new stuff

 

I'm assuming that the new stuff will be a lot lower manu req's than the new swords and armour we just had. Hopefully they wont require so much metal either

 

Keep up the great work

[Arnieman]

Are you being sarcastic? If not.... how can you complain about that?

Actually, I was being full truthful, not sarcastic this time. Someone 14 levels lower than me critically failed the essence, and it looked to me that Entropy was expressing disbelief that this was happening. So, I recounted my experience. If I mesread what he said, I'm sorry. But my experience stands.

 

I can appreciate the slowdown, but FE have been no-fail for so long... if this is the new way of things, and I should expect times that I will fail 2-3 or more FE close together, then I'll either live with it or stop making my own FE. If, I read his post right, and he thinks there's a problem, maybe posting my experience helps. In either case, I maintain my opinions, and I will speak them respectfully.

 

As for balancing the market - why am I a level 77 alchemist making my own FE? Shouldn't I be able to buy them on the market, and let someone of lower levels work on them? One reason - I went flat broke. I couldn't have afforded FE, if someone wanted to give them to me - which is why I'm making my own now, and working on orders for others. When you need money, you do what you can for it.

 

There's a problem with that - actually, 3. The first: There is one skill that REALLY rakes in the cash, and that's harvesting - particularly a certain flower in a certain location. There is one other skill that can turn a more all-at-once profit, but takes a lot of work - alchemy. The rest, you have to have very high levels before you can even consider turning much in profit. One bush probably porvides most of the ingame cash supply. Someone willing to plunk down at a bush can easily make over 1000 gold coins an hour, for sitting at a bush and walking to a store - another can sit in a mine for hours, then at storage a few more hours, and make a more substantial profit (which may be the same as the bush, if not less, but more all at once). Several skills spend faster at low and mid levels, and a couple even at the highest levels, than they can ever hope to make... something needs to be tuned up there.

 

The second problem: the major need to mass-produce lower level goods to be able to get to higher levels - an inherent problem in a level-based RPG - don't know you can really do much to fix this. The problem becomes inherent in lots of goods produced without a decent exit for them - and so prices fall for this reason.

 

The third problem - money sinking. The new books that cost gold from NPCs pull money out of the game, at high rates - which would be alright, if gold passed in the economy at high rates for most producer skills. Now, increasing gold coin drops from monsters helped, but creating new money sinks in the process - that encourages the first probem, and compounds the second. Granted, it shouldn't be cheap to get the newer books - they are high level items to be made. On the other hand, making people lose ingredients on FE will help with this problem?

 

I honestly have only sought to help with my comments - If that is not clear, I apologize. I want to see a stable economy happen in the game - if failing FE is the way, I'm willing to at least try. I'm not willing to say that it certainly doesn't seem the way, but if time is what it takes, I'll either be proven right or wrong, and if it's all fixed then, that's what I really want.

[ttlanhil]

So, I recounted my experience.

and to chime in myself... it has been a long, long time sice I made many FE, they're just too low in XP, so I buy them on market, usually a few thousand at a time. the other day I went to make 300, to see what the change was like. used to be about 1 sec, AFAIK, now 2, 2.5 seconds, I made 299/300 with a few non-critical fails. I'm alch 90, 5th highest in EL last I checked, so it does happen way up there, but not often... I don't see it as a big problem

Shouldn't I be able to buy them on the market, and let someone of lower levels work on them? One reason - I went flat broke. I couldn't have afforded FE, if someone wanted to give them to me - which is why I'm making my own now, and working on orders for others. When you need money, you do what you can for it.

I usualy have some spare cash to buy FE, and until really recently, I didn't have too much touble doing so. now, however, the supply seems to have dropped, and prices gone up (4gc seems a current estimate). I expect that to go back towards 3gc as people realise the change isn't that big, but with ingredient losses it may not get back to 3 (and a standard round number made things a lot easier when trading )

The second problem: the major need to mass-produce lower level goods to be able to get to higher levels - an inherent problem in a level-based RPG - don't know you can really do much to fix this. The problem becomes inherent in lots of goods produced without a decent exit for them - and so prices fall for this reason.

in some cases, this isn't a problem. for example, the FE, no matter how many newbies are mass producing them, there'll be people to buy them. for other stuff, like leather kit, yes, it's a big problem. one solution might be to reduce the XP given, increase the sucess rate a bit, then add an experiment option.

when experimenting, you're far, far more likely to lose the ingredients, but there's more XP given, even if you do lose ingreds (you'e not interested in the end product, you're experimenting and learning)

this is similar to the schools idea previously proposed, except that you can do it anywhere, and there's no need to track who takes and gives back how much stuff

The third problem - money sinking. The new books that cost gold from NPCs pull money out of the game, at high rates - which would be alright, if gold passed in the economy at high rates for most producer skills.

oh one hand, I agree, there's a lot of cash going out to book sellers, and not much coming in; even making it so all monster drops were cash or rare items, with cash amount bumped up to compensate for loss of other stuff, you can't counter that.

on te other hand... why does everyone want to have all the books? a lot of people are buying or have read books they can't use... knowledge they may never use (I'm one of them, I've read fluffy summon, but I doubt I'll get to summoning a fluffy any time soon)

there are vaious reasons people will do this, some of them deeply ingrained in EL itself (I can do any skill? cool, well, I want the knowledge ready when I get the levels to do this net year), some not (it looks nicer if ctrl+k is all filled in)

this is more a complaint at the middle level players. those who are spending money on stuff that they don't need for months or more. low level players probably couldn't afford tog et too many of those books even if they wanted to (which was a reason for increasing book prices a while back, as I recall), and high level players should be able to afford them... there's not enough gc in the economy for them to be able to have the cash to spare though

[Cycloonx]

Jep because fe becomes slower to mix you now need even more time to do something but still get the same exp... You don't fix the mass problem here, you just make people more bored imo, that's how it works on me. So I will just keep buying my fe and my mass production will stay on level to get new levels

 

Edit: Just an example, If you want to make 1k steel bars you need 3k fe, before you did this on 50 minutes without harvesting. Now you need 1h40 minutes to do this. And then you need to take the harvest time in account for sulfur/flowers/coal/iron and you are busy 10-12 hours now for 1k steel bars, mix steel longs of them and you have about 70 without fails. So if you consider you work 2 hours a day on this you need a full week to make. So changing the fe is a big change, it asks you for 10% (!!) more time. 1 sec change looks small, but 2 secs is double of 1 sec. And you need tons of fe so that 1 second makes a big change. Make swords mixing time 10-20 secs or whatever and give like 25%-50% more exp and you will stop the mass producing for sure. Swords exp are worthless for the time you invest in them when you compare to leather stuff where you can get the same exp on 10 minutes instead of working 10-12 hours to get same exp on swords.

Edited July 22, 2006 by Cycloonx

[Entris]

I haven't done FEs for a long time now but if i need em i wont mind if they take longer time mixing them, i'm used to have long and big projects to reach my goals so making 10k FEs would be a drop in the ocean for me.

Everything takes some time, reach a sertain lvl, make a sertain amount of items that u need, you can't expect to make items in a blink of the eye.

I thought the radom thing makes it so everyone no matter wich lvl you have can lose the ingreds (critical fail) every now and then, i might be wrong about this tho?

[Entropy]

Or you can do this:

Go to Ila Prima, wait for newbies to come in the game, then 'adopt' a newbie. Tell him how to make FEs, possibly give them some ingredients, then you buy them from him, so everyone profits.

[Arnieman]

Or you can do this:

Go to Ila Prima, wait for newbies to come in the game, then 'adopt' a newbie. Tell him how to make FEs, possibly give them some ingredients, then you buy them from him, so everyone profits.

"buy" requires some money - I had a grand total of about 100gc at one point. Besides, with the slowdown, for the amount of FEs needed, you need at least 2 newbies going. Even more, with fails, since my level is higher, I have less fails, meaning more FE anyway.

 

Edit: What I am trying to point out: It becomes less profitable to hire someone to make these when they are going to fail several of these. 1 in 100-150, as the case has been to me, is a lot better to plan for...

Edited July 22, 2006 by Arnieman

[Pyewacket]

while they are mixing your FE atahn, try picking some flowers

[Bleuren]

Well, I am making FE's now, after making a few hundred of them you kind of get used to it, it isn't that bad now that I shutup and accually tried it....

[Entropy]

"buy" requires some money - I had a grand total of about 100gc at one point. Besides, with the slowdown, for the amount of FEs needed, you need at least 2 newbies going. Even more, with fails, since my level is higher, I have less fails, meaning more FE anyway.

 

Edit: What I am trying to point out: It becomes less profitable to hire someone to make these when they are going to fail several of these. 1 in 100-150, as the case has been to me, is a lot better to plan for...

 

I am sure many newbies would do it for free, so long as you provide the ingredients and tutor them for a while (like explaining stuff, maybe giving them some free or discounted newbie items, etc.)

[nathanstenzel]

Hmmmm...so lets see if I understand this....

To reduce the amount of EFE in the game, you make them harder to make.

To reduce the amount of FE in the game, you slow down the time it takes to make them.

Then, I somehow manage to make 2 EFE in one day, suggesting they are not as rare anymore, so the price might go back down while still making them more rare.

Then, it turns out the FE can have critical failures so that you lose ingredients.

I the rarity of the EFE making event went back closer to what it was before while still having them more rare due to FE being slower to mix I think that is a Great trade-off.

 

Granted, I am a manufacturer, but I would rather have FE go up in price than have EFE stay ate 4Kgc and not be able to make them myself.

 

EFE items are a key way for me to make money. I want my EFE.....it seems they just figured out a different way to make them rarer besides adjusting the odds of an EFE event. Time is how. I like it.

 

As for the schools, that will help me advance quicker. I don't care if I lose more ingreds. Are they functional yet?

 

Good luck with the game economy, guys. I know there will be alot of complaints with every change. I am sure people will get used to them in time though.

[Arnieman]

A.) How easy is it to get passed the newbies that just want to beg free stuff, and spam, and scream when people don't do everything for them, and beg more when you do... granted, not everyone is like this, but many of them are. I used to help out on channel one, what seems a long time ago now - I left when I felt my help was no longer appreciated or wanted. I'm not about to stick myself in such a position and ruin my gameplay, when I don't feel it's worth it.

 

b.) I also have the Artificier perk - that *should* mean that I've got a greater chance to make EFE, among other rares - it certainly isn't seeming that way.

Edited July 22, 2006 by Arnieman

[Entropy]

Hmmmm...so lets see if I understand this....

To reduce the amount of EFE in the game, you make them harder to make.

 

Umm, the chance of EFE has not been changed lately, it was always 3/10K (unless you have the artificer perk).

 

Arnieman: There are at least 100 newbies/day. If 5% of them are willing to cooperate, you can still get a lot of FEs for free.

[Arnieman]

Entropy: sometime soon, I'm going to try that - either to prove you wrong, or to prove me wrong.

[kat]

I honestly don't see much of a change...

But then again i have always been able to occupy my time when doing less 'interesting' stuff.

[Blodoks]

This is my efe rating and I don't have artificier perk:

 

 

Now fe. I read about a production of 3-500 fe, no much changes, etc...

I don't know which players they are, but I know my game.

 

A summoning level, for example the lvl 72*, need (without to lose ingredients):

30.912 titanium ores

30.912 iron ores

30.912 coal

41.860 sulfur

41.860 red rose

41.860 red snapdragon

 

to make:

3.864 titanium bars

3.864 steel bars

41.860 fire essences

 

to make:

644 titanium short swords

 

A part the summoning, I have some guild goal about new swords, new armors,

etc. and this mean other tons of fe.

So, 42 hours of fe's production instead 21 hours I think isn't fair, without to consider

the harvesting time, etc.

 

*I made the example of lvl 72 because I already done all about lvl 71

[Entropy]

As I was saying, make up your mind. Slower build times, or overproduction. Can't have them both.

[Arnieman]

As I was saying, make up your mind. Slower build times, or overproduction. Can't have them both.

I think we may still end up with both... as long as the only way to level in a skill is to mass manu, and everything takes like 2-3 seconds to make, there will be overproduction in many items - except essences. For the most part, as soon as essences are made, they get used - I'm hearing that Energy Essences are in high demand to crafters. Fire Essences have always been in demand by manuers, mage-trainers need tons of Air Essences, and fighters with magic need tons of Health Essences...

 

The over-production problem with Fire Essences, as you say, is not with the essences themselves, but with what they make. Maybe a few slowdowns could be put on them some - say, have it so people can make 1 item in the time they make 10 now, and for that 1 item they get the experience that they get for 10 now. It's a simple solution, lets them have one item made (less item flood), while giving them the same experience they get now and using the same amount of time. If this were the case, you'd have people leveling at the same rate, with less item flooding - maybe not the best solution, but easier than having to make creative new exits for items flooding.

 

Personally, I haven't a big issue, if any, with the new time - I still prefer the old long make times to the current food cooldowns. The other system made it a long time, regardless of what you did; the current one makes it too easy to "bypass" an intentioned delay. I'll work in this system, but I still hold my opinions.

[Entropy]

Many people proposed a bigger delay and more exp, but the problem is that many others pointed out that such a system would be boring (more boring than the current one).

[Cycloonx]

A bigger delay on the END PRODUCT might work, don't make the beginning work already boring ... Fire essence is the basic of the game, I think it's the first item made by 80% of the players in the game. Fire essences have such a high demand that people rarely sell them. Make delays on end product mixing much bigger and let the beginning products as they are. But give more exp...