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Summoning stones revisited :D


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#1 Egarra

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 05:03 AM

Due to the changing dynamics of the game, I feel that the summoning skill could use some minor adjustments to make it more attractive for players that may be interested in starting the skill and more balanced with other skills in the game. I’m hoping to spark some POSITIVE conversation that can lead to a better game for all of us. I’m only going to touch on summon stones, and only a few of those.

I will use the following average prices as a baseline for my conclusions. These prices have changed dramatically since summon stones were introduced to the game. This is due to a changing demand, and the fact that many of the items are rare.

LE: 4.5gc
ELE: 3.5k GC
EME: 4Kgc
EWE: 3.2K GC
EDE: 1.5k GC
Serpent Stones: 1.7Kgc
Bear fur :12gc
Thread: 2gc
SR: 15gc
Binding stone 6.8k
EMP: 450gc
White Tiger Fur: 75gc
FP 12gc
Gypsum 0gc (not many buy/sell it for summoning... Gypsum actually limits how fast you can level. Due to its heavy weight it is more efficient to haul ingredients to the gypsum and mix. I personally can haul ingredients for 15 tigers stones each trip.. so if time = money, then gypsum is expensive, many others can haul less then I do)
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Bear stone
Cost to make: ~130gc
npc buys :~125gc
cost to buy from NPC: 250gc
Usefull in PK: yes

Conclusion: The bear stone is good to level up summoning for those just starting to make stones, and can be sold to other players since there is a pk use. if sold to other players, then the cost of the stone from the NPC does not limit the marketability. For those that just want to level fast, they can sell straight to the npc, but they will lose money. My suggestion- leave as is :D
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Tiger stone
Cost to make: 231gc
Cost to buy from NPC: 650 gc
Npc buys: 325gc
Useful in PK: yes

Conclusion: The Tiger stone is the summoners mainstay for leveling the skill. This stone actually requires a bit of cooperation with high A/D players, due to the difficulty of killing Tigers. The cost of tiger furs has risen dramatically due to the demand. Overall, this is a very balanced stone and profitable for summoners to make. There is a solid demand from pk’rs. Please leave this one as is.
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Phantom Warrior:
Cost to make: 1535gc
npc buys : no
cost to buy from NPC: 2500gc
Usefull in PK: yes, although very limited.

Conclusion: This stone is ok as is, but since it requires a rare ingredient and its marketability is limited and the NPC does not buy it, most summoners don’t level with this stone. Although that’s ok, the price from the NPC does not limit the ability to sell. My suggestion, leave as is.
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Fluffy:
Cost to make: 3545gc
npc buys : no
Cost to buy from NPC: 4000gc
Usefull in PK: Somewhat usefull

Conclusion: I have only been able to sell this stone when priced around 2-2.5K, due to the new costs associated with the ELE this stone is a loss to make. And when compared to the Sslesser which is much more powerful, its cost to make is way overpriced. Suggestion: Either change the ingredients to lower the cost of manufacture, or set the NPC to buy or a combination of both. If ingredients are left alone, may want to increase the cost of this stone so that summoners are not in direct competition with the NPC. Give the fluffy a ‘special skill’ like the tiger/bear stones to increase its value to pk’rs.
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SSlesser:
Cost to make: 2159gc
npc buys : no
cost to buy from NPC: 7000gc
Usefull in PK: ?? I don’t really know, but it does sell well, so I assume so.

Conclusion: leave as is, I believe that as the price of the serpent stones rise, this may need to be reevaluated. But, as it stands currently, Its good. The rare item required limits the amount of stones in the game and the cost from the NPC allows for some room for a price increase before summoners are in direct completion with the NPC.
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Yeti:
Cost to make: 13512GC
npc buys : no
cost to buy from NPC: 13k
Usefull in PK: yes

Conclusion: It is obvious that is costs more to make this stone then it costs to buy from the NPC. Recommend raising the price from the NPC to 26K. May want to remove it from the NPC all together and let only the summoners make the higher level stones.

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Arctic Chim:
Cost to make: 14859gc
npc buys : no
cost to buy from NPC: 16K
Usefull in PK: yes

Conclusion: Due to the rising cost of ingredients, this stone is very borderline to make. The price from the NPC is so low that summoners are in direct completion with the NPC. Raise the price from the NPC or remove from the NPC altogether.
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Giant:
Cost to make: 21312 gc
npc buys : no
cost to buy from NPC: 24K
Usefull in PK: yes

Conclusion: Same as for yeti and arctic chim, due to the raising prices of ingredients, summoners are in direct completion with the NPC.
_____________________________________________________________
Overall thoughts and suggestions:

Since summoners don’t get to create luck items like an ‘orc slayer of mana drain’ , I think that there should be some reasons for summoners to want to level besides the ability to make a stone that can be bought from the NPC. That is why I recommended removing the top 2-3 stones from the NPC and making them obtainable only from summoners. I would also like to see the ‘Dragon’ summonable, but NO stone for this creature. This would give a pk party a reason to include a summoner and even a better reason for summoners to level the skill. Before stones, summoning was really a pk skill, stones are great, but lets get the PK back into the skill.

Edited by Egarra, 16 May 2007 - 06:19 AM.


#2 2coolfool

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 05:11 AM

i used to summon(lvl 50) and have to agree with most of what's been said here. there isn't really much point to level more, tiger/bear stones are 90% success rate for me if i use summon pot and higher level stones are easy to get from npc and not really high demand.

would be interesting to see it get useful again as a skill, and i might get back to summon god which i left since i dont use it anymore :D

#3 bkc56

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 05:45 AM

Iím hoping to spark some POSITIVE conversation that can lead to a better game for all of us. Iím only going to touch on summon stones, and only a few of those.

Very interesting analysis. I'm not a summoner, but I enjoyed reading it.

#4 masterpiter

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 06:37 AM

Nice analysis.
About Yeti and AC stones, imho they r not usefull if u can summon giant instead.
Giant makes 70-90 dmg in every round( no1 can block it and probably no1 ever will, so if some1 fight it and dont wanna get eaten very fast he uses mirror cape- with a lot of luck u can survive hug from 2 giants if u use extra manas, i managed it only once on test server ;p).
600 health of giant is also very important, coz even if u deal big dmg to them(60+ with thermal) it still takes a lot of time 2 kill it.

All in all, giant stone is something like that new bronze sword but a lot better(bronze sword breaks very fast+ makes about 20 more dmg in every hit than thermal).
Giants makes -def on ur opponent(multicombat so -5 or -15def if ur enemy was stupid enough 2 take icd ;>) and of coz deals big dmg 2( like i told before, around 70-90dmg in every hit, 100% hits in every person unless that person wears mirror cape).

About bear/tiger stones, they r very nice 4 pking ppl on pvp/training, in a normal fight most ppl use mag immune so tiger/bear wont make special effect on them, althought they still can catch ur opponents diss, so good 2 use that stones at the end of a fight(+ u can mana drain them :D ).

eMPi

#5 hades

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 09:21 AM

-15def if ur enemy was stupid enough 2 take icd ;>


or brave enough :blush:

I think stones were a great maquievel idea to burn money in pk.

Giant stone rocks.

Good post.

#6 Marwen

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 09:29 AM

very nice and most of it is right, but about giant stones:
1) why waste 24kgc (48kgc... bc hi lvl fighters can kill 1 summ giant) to kill someone, when he lost only rosto (15kgc) (I want greet bep this way :-)
2) Its good on no rosto day, but last 2 no rostos days I was some hours in KF with items ~200kgc and noone used it on me :-(
3) once I killed 2 summ giants only with mirror 6 hits for 100+ in row, pro EL "random" number generator :-)

and about tigers and cooldown, I must ask each time I cd anyone in PK, why he hadnt imunity?, but I still cd and kill ~4 players/day, so its very good stone :-)

and about icd, it should be -20 def in 2vs1, -25 in 3vs1 ... (based on 1 of many possibles constructions of this perk label) ... and what I wanted to tell, ah yes, if I summ giant I dont do it bc I want multi anyone \o/ (see 1)

#7 sithicus

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 09:39 AM

Nice analysis. The only thing i miss is the armed orc stone. I suppose that stone is not too useful ( it doesn't sell as good as bear or tiger stone), so perhaps you have suggestion for this stone as well?

edit: and spider, which is probably worse than orc stone :blush:

Edited by sithicus, 14 May 2007 - 09:39 AM.


#8 LadyReni

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 10:10 AM

what you wrote is nothing new to most of top summoners :blush:

#9 Dejan

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 11:08 AM

Egarra, excellent post, and excellent analysis (essay)! Good work and thanks - I'll redirect all my fellow conjourers here. :blush:

#10 EaglePrince

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 01:45 PM

Nice analysis. The only thing i miss is the armed orc stone. I suppose that stone is not too useful ( it doesn't sell as good as bear or tiger stone), so perhaps you have suggestion for this stone as well?

edit: and spider, which is probably worse than orc stone :blush:

I don't agree with that last comment, since spider has a chance to freeze you if you don't pwn it with first hit. I also think that the orc stone should have some special effect to make it worth buying, like a chance to do something nasty (poison comes to mind) :devlish:

#11 Gohan

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 02:01 PM

Nice analysis. The only thing i miss is the armed orc stone. I suppose that stone is not too useful ( it doesn't sell as good as bear or tiger stone), so perhaps you have suggestion for this stone as well?

edit: and spider, which is probably worse than orc stone :blush:

I don't agree with that last comment, since spider has a chance to freeze you if you don't pwn it with first hit. I also think that the orc stone should have some special effect to make it worth buying, like a chance to do something nasty (poison comes to mind) :devlish:


Extra damage jumped into my mind. Like a damage ring or the Eagle Wing of extra damage.

"X was hit by the Armed Orc for 20 extra damage."

-Blee

#12 Tico

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 02:03 PM

I also think that the orc stone should have some special effect to make it worth buying, like a chance to do something nasty (poison comes to mind) :blush:


I agree about Orc Stone with Eagle prince... they are very good for us summoners to make and requires manuing help (since they use swords to be done) and would raise market value for this stones, they arent very usefull for anything since armed orcs have no special effects like mana drain or paralisis... altought it would mean that all armed orcs woulh have such effect would got influence in a/d training for a certain number of ppl that train on them... so maybe the point here isnt as simple.

But to make it buyable from NPC would help summoners...

IMO keep the stones as it is wouldnt be so bad anyway. Im happy as it is now, but some adjustments as the ones egarra posted could help

#13 RallosZek

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 03:19 PM

Alltough it would mean that all armed orcs woulh have such effect would got influence in a/d training for a certain number of ppl that train on them... so maybe the point here isnt as simple.


There's a reason most people pvp the ogre/fluff gap, spawn time of armed orcs is the main reason. So, any special effect would put more people into pvp, which then stimulates pk :blush:

The armed orc stones used to be useful to hunt low level furs, like racoon and skunk and even feran horns, cause they follow real close, unlike animal type creatures. With the introduction of the max health based poison of summons, these got hit the hardest, cause they only live 3 minutes and the cost of the stone doesn't give enough furs anymore.
So maybe give them (and only the stones) 3 casts of restore, autoactivated at 20 health, which would give limited advantage in pk, but a lot of use in fur hunting. :devlish:

#14 2coolfool

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 03:59 PM

but a lot of use in fur hunting.


gotta agree here, summon was fun for drops and interesting too before the change in health loss. maybe health loss could be as it was before, but still high health loss on PK maps?

#15 Entropy

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 05:48 PM

I understand the concern over some of the stones not being very useful, or being close to the NPC price.
However, the thing is that you also gain quite a lot of experience from them, so if you factor that in, it is still in your advantage to sell your stones at slightly below the NPC price, even if you lose a few gold coins for some stones.

#16 El Ninho

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 06:04 PM

... you also gain quite a lot of experience from them, so if you factor that in, it is still in your advantage to sell your stones at slightly below the NPC price, even if you lose a few gold coins for some stones.

That sounds like: "buy your exp at NPC!" :blush:

#17 Beaverhunter

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 06:10 PM

Summoning skill might be one of those overlooked skills but compared to crafting and manufacturing where all products have lower price than their raw ingredients... summoning is a dream...

The stones give lots of exp, nothing worth making for leveling in crafting/potioning/manufacturing gives much exp and is also a profit compared to time spent.

Point:
If your going to try and get some items/products revised and repriced and so on... then please consider all products rather than those that are allready pretty good.

#18 2coolfool

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 06:18 PM

However, the thing is that you also gain quite a lot of experience from them


isn't it easier to just buy ingred for say 100 tiger stones instead of 1 giant stone, make tigers, get about 3 times the exp and a gc profit? :blush:

The stones give lots of exp, nothing worth making for leveling in crafting/potioning/manufacturing gives much exp and is also a profit compared to time spent.


you have to factor in the time taken too. gypsum is heavy and in the middle of nowhere, so with my emu of 540(when i was levelling) max 10 stones per trip, 6 trips/h. that's 20k or so exp per hour, while i could easily make 70-90k on crafting polished gems in that same time..

for pots, SRs. all i can say :devlish:

#19 Ermabwed

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 06:31 PM

you have to factor in the time taken too. gypsum is heavy and in the middle of nowhere, so with my emu of 540(when i was levelling) max 10 stones per trip, 6 trips/h. that's 20k or so exp per hour, while i could easily make 70-90k on crafting polished gems in that same time..

for pots, SRs. all i can say :devlish:

Yes, how come you suddenly forget that time when it comes to other skills? :blush:

#20 Beaverhunter

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 07:07 PM

...

The stones give lots of exp, nothing worth making for leveling in crafting/potioning/manufacturing gives much exp and is also a profit compared to time spent.


you have to factor in the time taken too. gypsum is heavy and in the middle of nowhere, so with my emu of 540(when i was levelling) max 10 stones per trip, 6 trips/h. that's 20k or so exp per hour, while i could easily make 70-90k on crafting polished gems in that same time..

for pots, SRs. all i can say :blush:


Well let's say potioning was suppose to be the 3rd in place of worse income and exp...
LoL... are you saying your able to make 60 stones per hour which is umm over 10kgc if it's the low level stones, if you are talking about higher lvl stones were talking 20-60kgc...and making 20k or so exp... You sure are laughing at other skills by saying this... First off you make much more gc per hour than any other skill, second 20k exp takes 3 hours when it comes to harvesting.

Also you seem to have forgotten that polishing sapphires for example require ingredients worth about 23gc and give 60 exp. Getting all __WEs__+sapphires+sand papers(EXPENSIVE) needed takes years.... And compare that too let's say alchemys' HEs, 65exp and 6gc each or less...it's also "laughable"/not very logical (even considering that crafting is said in encylopedia to be a more expensive skill).

So I agree with ermabwed, where did the other skills go?




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