Cooldown On Summoning Stones

[Talixim]

During some semi afk time I was thinking about the cooldown of summoning stones. I know quite a few PKers who think that it is way to short of a time so I came up with this:

 

When using summoning stones anywhere, every time you use one the amount of cooldown on it increases slightly (or greatly). This would prevent massive zoo's and decrease the unfair advantage of summoning 6 giants in quick succession against an opponent.

 

One of my guildies also suggested cooldown be affected by your summoning level as in the higher your summon level the less cooldown on summoning stones. This would give more incentive for people (PKers) to level summoning.

 

Combining these two together you would get: The higher the summoning level, the less your cooldown is increased when using stones.

 

 

[Wizzy]

I would say something needs to be changed on the cooldown for sure, (I like the summon level or charm effecting the cooldown time)

[Entropy]

Interesting idea, but a little difficult to implement.

Will keep it in mind.

[Hannibal]

Yes please.

Always annoying having 2-3 GODZ members and a arseload of tigers in combat.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Hannibal

[korrode]

Yes please.

Always annoying having 2-3 GODZ members and a arseload of tigers in combat.

ditto

[Michic0_oL]

Yes please.

Always annoying having 2-3 GODZ members and a arseload of tigers in combat.

 

smitte summon ? everything is implemented ingame so you can fight against a summoned zoo imo. summon back + diss tele and leave their giants to die ? imo if someone spends 6 giant stones = about 80k gc for ur ~17k rosto, then you shouldn't be so easy to escape.

[Kaddy]

Yes please.

Always annoying having 2-3 GODZ members and a arseload of tigers in combat.

ditto

 

 

Yes please.

Always annoying having 2-3 GODZ members and a arseload of tigers in combat.

 

smitte summon ? everything is implemented ingame so you can fight against a summoned zoo imo. summon back + diss tele and leave their giants to die ? imo if someone spends 6 giant stones = about 80k gc for ur ~17k rosto, then you shouldn't be so easy to escape.

 

Ditto for both

 

 

But why in the world you want to make everyone increase summoning level by adding "level effect" to everything related to summoning? Already we have a/d increasement on their summoning levels, its enough mkay?

 

P.S. I might sound crying, but we train a/d to kill kk? i dont wanna waste billion of gc to level up summoning

[Nahtepa]

Main reason for "zoo"ing people is A)Defense Penalty = easier to hit opponent and To catch diss and make sure opponent doesnt get away, getting them cooleddown is an added bonus ;s so even if stones took longer to recover if u keep using them, still going to have loads of summons.... unless it was changed to a long ass time if u do a certain amount of stones back to back.

[korrode]

Just make summoning stones non-stackable

[ohmygod]

Just make summoning stones non-stackable

lol summoners will bitch about this, imagine carting 1k stones to npc to sell 36 @ a time

[Schmurk]

Just make summoning stones non-stackable

lol summoners will bitch about this, imagine carting 1k stones to npc to sell 36 @ a time

Manuers don't bitch when they have >1k leather helms to sell.

And I don't think summoners are in position to bitch about their skill...

[korrode]

The fact they sell these stones to an NPC, that pays them enough to buy all the ingreds to make another stone, warrants making them non-stackable, irrelevant of zoo's in PK.

 

Look what happened when Ent lowered the gc the NPC pays a while back;

The market price for WTF's went down.

Summoner's dictate that price, they'll only pay what allows them to at least break even when they sell the stone to the NPC.

 

I don't really care if summoners have to make a few more runs to level their profitable/break-even skill, if it stops damn zoo's in PK.

 

Zoo's in PK is just another one of the things that makes PK too expensive... to combat a zoo, u summon one of your own, suddenly your 1 PK fight is costing thousands and thousands of gc.

[Light Lan]

Just make summoning stones non-stackable

lol summoners will bitch about this, imagine carting 1k stones to npc to sell 36 @ a time

Manuers don't bitch when they have >1k leather helms to sell.

And I don't think summoners are in position to bitch about their skill...

 

manuers can easily carry 100+ ings for leather helmets to trik and mix them right there, summoners can't.

[PaulB]

Yes please.

Always annoying having 2-3 GODZ members and a arseload of tigers in combat.

 

smitte summon ? everything is implemented ingame so you can fight against a summoned zoo imo. summon back + diss tele and leave their giants to die ? imo if someone spends 6 giant stones = about 80k gc for ur ~17k rosto, then you shouldn't be so easy to escape.

 

 

6 giants go for 144Kgc in AA (Maybe you mean cost of ingreads to make is ~80Kgc?)

 

But I dont know many that have a 75 summon lvl to make them lol.

 

And yes you may die to them and loose a rosto but think what you just made the giant "summoner" loose.

 

 

Smite summon ftw!

 

 

PaulB

[Light Lan]

aa is cheapest for giants, ings for giant stone cost ~26k, normal summon costs ~27k, in aa it's 24k.

[Aphistolas]

Manuers don't bitch when they have >1k leather helms to sell.

And I don't think summoners are in position to bitch about their skill...

 

Cross check the weight of the ingredients for one bear summoning stone (level 30, IIRC, which is very hard to get to as it is) against the weight of the ingredients of a leather helm. Also, the level for a helm is significantly lower than that for a the first summoning stone. Manufacturing may not have much profit, but until summon 20 (which is a painfully high fail rate) it's not possible to make any money from summoning. Not to mention that manufacturing helms in particular requires ingredients that can be readily bought from a store. Most people who do summoning need to go hunt for their skins/make their LEs/etc. which is considerably less luxurious than going afk at the lupines bush.

 

After that, I'm not going to argue how profitable summoning is (no experience of it beyond Bear Stones), but in the first 20 (realistically the first 25-30) levels, summoning is much harder than manufacturing. At least if you wish to make a gold, or just break even.

 

The fact they sell these stones to an NPC, that pays them enough to buy all the ingreds to make another stone, warrants making them non-stackable, irrelevant of zoo's in PK.

 

Uh, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Lets cast aside the facts you need to:

 

-Travel to C2 in the first place. Though this isn't a particularly big obstacle, I'm usually active on C1, and paying for a ring to C2 costs me a minimum of 1.6 of 1 Bear Stone's cost (assuming NPC pays ~125). That's an additional two stones I need to make, but no biggie, it's just two extra stones.

 

-Cost of ingredients. Here is where it gets interesting. Admittedly, I haven't mixed a Bear Stone in three, or so, weeks, but I doubt the prices will have changed significantly.

 

3 SRs (lets be kind and assume 14GC each) = 42GC

1 Bear Fur (NPC price is 30, usually sold for about ~25, lets assume its the latter) = 25GC

30 Gypsums (price is variable, but I believe at sto's it can cost up to 10gc each, but at point (gyp mine) it costs a little less. Lets say 6gc each) = 180GC

15 Life Essences (can be sold for up to 5, but lets be favourable and assume 4) = 60GC

1 Summoning pot per 5 stones (if you need it) ~whatever GC, possibly around 70GC

 

So, not including the summoning potions, and with the most favourable outcome: 307GC for all ings. Not including time, of course.

That's a net loss of 182 gold coins per stone. Not even considering the fact most people pay about ~110-120 for that particular stone.

 

I don't really care if summoners have to make a few more runs to level their profitable/break-even skill, if it stops damn zoo's in PK.

 

As TK already pointed out, it is possible to defend against them. Either that or just boycott PK all together (letting your opponents bears go up in a haze of wasted gold) until the person is gone/runs out of money. Yes, that's hardly practical, but I'd much appreciate it if you didn't shove your problems onto another group of people. See: summoners don't make people use stones in PK, neither do manuers make people use pinky swords/other high level items. Should we blame the manuers by making rare manu's 100,000,000 times less likely? I think you see my point .

 

Not to mention there is also a spell that will work wonders to the summoned creatures. I'd guess most people who do "hardcore PKing" (NCA, KF, TD, etc.) all have magic 49 and a good reasoning/will, not counting the pure-mages, yes?

 

As the game develops you adapt. Summoning stones have been around for long enough, people have sought and found ways around them, if someone is too lazy to use them, they shouldn't complain.

 

But why in the world you want to make everyone increase summoning level by adding "level effect" to everything related to summoning? Already we have a/d increasement on their summoning levels, its enough mkay?

 

P.S. I might sound crying, but we train a/d to kill kk? i dont wanna waste billion of gc to level up summoning

 

Yes, the AD increase is direct result of a perk, yes? A perk which costs 5PP and 20kgc.

 

Conversely, you could spend those same PP (or less) and get self destruction, evanescence, Underworlder, FR, which all help you in or before battle.

 

Also, summoning consumes mana, just as stones consume EMU/a slot, which could all be used for other things. Admittedly, the main strategy for low 100s people seems to be summon-horde-and-run, but it's a tactic nonetheless (which does prove effective sometimes, I'd wager).

 

Moreover, you spend PP to have better restore, or hit more, or get hit less, right? You level up AD to become a better fighter, right? A good fighter, in my mind, is now not just someone with the highest A/D/P/C. It's someone who can think, plan, anticipate, and execute decisively with the tools s/he has available. Increase your tools to include powerful summons, or, frankly, stop whining.

 

Oh, I just noticed, your post is somewhat hypocritical. You're arguing that you don't want a zillion animals on you, but you don't want to level summoning so you can use those stones quickly yourself....?

 

@Talixim: (OOC: Whew, finally ). I do like the idea. It believe it would do the following:

 

-Encourage teamwork. If I understand correctly, Entropy and the developers dislike the idea of a one-man-pwns-all tank class. This way, not even equipped with lots of expensive rocks will one person be able to rule a arena/fort/map/whatever. Two or three, maybe more, will be needed to fill the field. Which would probably cost more, thus reducing the likelihood of a zoo in the first place.

 

-Decrease player prices for summoning stones slightly. As eventually people would stop using as many in PK, given the fact they are not as useful now. That's a blow, but whatever, from a low-level summoner who sells to NPC (for a - profit) that's acceptable.

 

-Lead to a greater number of mid-level summoners in game. Hopefully a new breed of PKers would emerge (we have tanks, mages now, and are looking forward to archers soon....? ) which would shift the gold around a little to newbies as more people would purchasing the raw materials of summoning. After this, people would probably pay money to mid-level trainers to harvest furs for them. Or maybe they could try to make their own profit off stones at this point, but it's unlikely since the skill is not profitable unless you put in lots of time, and I guess PKers do alch/harvest as they're the quickest, easiest, ways of earning GC for those precious rosotogols .

 

-Leave the annoying "300 bears in KF pwned lolol!" people (who, are potential charbuyers anyway ) out in the cold as they are forced to either work on summoning until high levelled enough to spam animals as quick as they could before, or actually make them train AD and (hopefully) apply tactics when fighting.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Aphistolas

[korrode]

The fact they sell these stones to an NPC, that pays them enough to buy all the ingreds to make another stone, warrants making them non-stackable, irrelevant of zoo's in PK.

 

Uh, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Lets cast aside the facts you need to:

...

That's a net loss of 182 gold coins per stone. Not even considering the fact most people pay about ~110-120 for that particular stone.

Now lets do tiger stones (same prices as you used, but i'm not including c2 rings and summ pots, as i dont think they should be taken into account):

20 LE = 80gc

20 Gypsum = 120gc

4 SRS = 56gc

 

Total: 256gc.

NPC buys stone for 295gc

 

So, that only leaves 39gc for the WTF, granted they are currently selling for more than that...

...but, the reason they sell for more is because any serious summoner is finding ways to get their LE, Gypsum and SRS at slightly less than your stated prices. I know of high level summoners setting up on-going deals with people to mix LE's for ingreds, through the use of HB's pay much less for gypsum, and many of them make their own SRS.

 

Not to mention that Tiger stones, afaik, are sold to players for 320-350gc.

 

I don't know about bear stones, but on Tiger stones, they break even, or make profit.

 

 

I don't really care if summoners have to make a few more runs to level their profitable/break-even skill, if it stops damn zoo's in PK.

 

As TK already pointed out, it is possible to defend against them.

Firstly, you are killing the summon zoo as you go. You cast smite summoned and then a minute later there's a new zoo... plus, smite summon costs 30 mana, quite a lot.

As for "boycotting PK" ...pfff, that's not a solution.

 

So, as to who does and doesn't know what they're talking about...

Edited September 5, 2008 by Korrode

[Troger]

I smell we are heading again to the "my skill is the hardest" story...

[Aphistolas]

Now lets do tiger stones (same prices as you used, but i'm not including c2 rings and summ pots, as i dont think they should be taken into account):

 

If you're good with math you'll realise I never factored in the cost for either a pot or a ring

 

20 LE = 80gc

20 Gypsum = 120gc

4 SRS = 56gc

 

Total: 256gc.

NPC buys stone for 295gc

..

So, that only leaves 39gc for the WTF, granted they are currently selling for more than that...

 

Incomplete argument =/= an argument. Not to mention that is a complete fallacy. Factoring in a WTF (which you conveniently missed out) that's a loss of at least 41GC.

 

Not to mention that Tiger stones, afaik, are sold to players for 320-350gc.

 

You do not remember correctly, they are bought for 300-325 (according to the multiple sources I've obtained). Under the worst of conditions, that's still a loss of 11gold coins.

 

I don't know about bear stones, but on Tiger stones, they break even, or make profit.

 

According to my information, that statement is not correct.

 

Firstly, you are killing the summon zoo as you go. You cast smite summoned and then a minute later there's a new zoo... plus, smite summon costs 30 mana, quite a lot.

As for "boycotting PK" ...pfff, that's not a solution

 

Sure it is. It's a helluva lot better than screwing up the game for the rest of the people. Sorry, but the facts are, despite PKers probably buy the biggest lot of summoning stones, they are a minority in the game. I don't see why we should unbalance an already accepted game component just to satisfy a smaller portion of the player base, sorry.

 

So, as to who does and doesn't know what they're talking about...

 

Yeah, echoing my sentiment exactly.

 

edit:

 

And about the "30 mana thing", you're a tactician, find a way around it, or hard lines.

 

@Troger: I don't want or think that's going to happen.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Aphistolas

[korrode]

Not to mention that is a complete fallacy.

How so? which part?

 

Factoring in a WTF (which you conveniently missed out) that's a loss of at least 41GC.

Err no, i addressed WTF. i said 39gc was left after other ingreds (obviously, talking in relation to breaking-even with selling to NPC). I didn't 'miss out' on anything.

 

You on the other hand, conveniently didn't address this part of my argument:

any serious summoner is finding ways to get their LE, Gypsum and SRS at slightly less than your stated prices. I know of high level summoners setting up on-going deals with people to mix LE's for ingreds, through the use of HB's pay much less for gypsum, and many of them make their own SRS.

 

You do not remember correctly, they are bought for 300-325 (according to the multiple sources I've obtained). Under the worst of conditions, that's still a loss of 11gold coins.

kk fine, 300-325gc... for any smart summoners it's still not a loss. (i.e. see last quote before this one)

 

According to my information, that statement is not correct.

Your information is wrong/incomplete.

 

Sure it is. It's a helluva lot better than screwing up the game for the rest of the people.

lol... come on...

How long did it take Blodoks to get to 100 summoning? (who did most of his leveling pre-stones), and then how quickly did others who'd been playing YEARS less than Blods also get to 100??

That is the effect of the stones... "screwing up the game", no, re-balancing the game.

 

Sorry, but the facts are, despite PKers probably buy the biggest lot of summoning stones, they are a minority in the game. I don't see why we should unbalance an already accepted game component just to satisfy a smaller portion of the player base, sorry.

PK'ers may be the minority, but they are pretty much still the only people who actually use the stones (certainly the only people who do on a regular basis). IMO that puts weight in their opinion on this topic.

 

And about the "30 mana thing", you're a tactician, find a way around it

I have.

Doesn't mean summon stones shouldn't be made non-stackable.

 

 

EDIT:

Here is an experienced summoner describing the cost of making Tiger stones, taken from the "Summoning stones revisited " thread in the Summoning section of the forums:

tiger ings = 20 gypsum (60gc if u buy it in a hyperbag @3ea) + 20 les (100gc) + 4 srs (56gc) + fps (12gc each) + tiger fur (90gc each)

318gc each.

In his example, he accounts for the food cost, prices LE @ 4.5gc each and uses 90gc for the cost of WTF's, which afaik they sell for less now (that quote is from before the NPC buy prices was lowered a little, which drove down WTF prices).

 

...so, yeah

Edited September 5, 2008 by Korrode

[Aphistolas]

any serious summoner is finding ways to get their LE, Gypsum and SRS at slightly less than your stated prices. I know of high level summoners setting up on-going deals with people to mix LE's for ingreds, through the use of HB's pay much less for gypsum, and many of them make their own SRS.

 

That part. As it is based on highly subjective and, probably incorrect, logic and reasoning. That entire argument is rendered otiose as it is not valid.

 

Err no, i addressed WTF. i said 39gc was left after other ingreds (obviously, talking in relation to breaking-even with selling to NPC). I didn't 'miss out' on anything.

 

No, you did not address it in your calculations. 39GC is also a beyond ludicrous prediction. If you didn't get my previous point, allow me to explain it:

 

Fallacies and incomplete arguments can be brought on by both sides. That is to say, SRs are 300 gold coins each, and the total cost of each WT stone is 1kgc. Also the stones only sell for 80gc each... (though that's only the cost of a WTF, but still....)

 

Conveniently ignoring facts, bringing in subjective 'evidence' based on your own personal experience is not acceptable either.

 

You on the other hand, conveniently didn't address this part of my argument:

any serious summoner is finding ways to get their LE, Gypsum and SRS at slightly less than your stated prices. I know of high level summoners setting up on-going deals with people to mix LE's for ingreds, through the use of HB's pay much less for gypsum, and many of them make their own SRS.

 

Again, this is subjective evidence, and therefore not valid.

 

kk fine, 300-325gc... for any smart summoners it's still not a loss. (i.e. see last quote before this one)

 

Under typical debate rules, this is untrue.

 

Your information is wrong/incomplete.

 

Nope, my information is pretty much correct. Though if you can present some empirical evidence instead of vague recollections and your opinions, feel free to attempt and correct me.

 

lol... come on...

How long did it take Blodoks to get to 100 summoning? (who did most of his leveling pre-stones), and then how quickly did others who'd been playing YEARS less than Blods also get to 100??

That is the effect of the stones... "screwing up the game", no, re-balancing the game.

 

That's not evidence, at all.

 

If you're specifically referring to Fedora, then my simple answer would be "power levelling", or even "smart training". It doesn't take a genius to realise that someone playing 23 h/day will reach level 100 faster (or almost as fast as) someone playing for 1 hr/day, indeed?

 

Regardless of the "damage" the stones have done, they are here to stay, like it or lump it. Arguing so vehemently is a great measure of one's egotistical nature. Sure, I'm willing to make a compromise by putting this suggestion forward (which would severely hamper my ability with stones), but you seem to want to make them potentially useless?

 

PK'ers may be the minority, but they are pretty much still the only people who actually use the stones (certainly the only people who do on a regular basis). IMO that puts weight in their opinion on this topic.

 

Yes, and I'm for this suggestion. Despite the fact it will reduce my ability, but ultimately make people like you (i.e. PKers) happier.

 

The echo continues.

 

Yeah well, on one hand I'm trying to be reasonable, concise and sensible, while adhering to the rules of debating and such. You, on the other hand, are not. What does that make you think?

 

I have.

Doesn't mean summon stones shouldn't be made non-stackable.

 

My point is: You have the means to fight the zoos, either use them, or stay out of PK.

 

OOC: damn, reached maximum number of quotations allowed. The first part of my post is in reply to the first of yours, of course.

[korrode]

Conveniently ignoring facts, bringing in subjective 'evidence' based on your own personal experience is not acceptable either.

Did you see my edit? i'm not using only my own personal experience.

I quoted a high level summoner from another thread.

 

EDIT: in my last post i also hit max quotes when i tried to add the edit, lol... removed the echo bit

Edited September 5, 2008 by Korrode

[Ermabwed]

Two things:

@Korrode: Tempest has no clue whatsoever.

@Aphistolas: Churchill is wrong.

 

PS: Please wait with non-stackable summoning stones until I've had my turn at them, kk, thanks

[korrode]

@Korrode: Tempest has no clue whatsoever.

He must have some clue... idk his exact summoning level, but he summons dragons, so it's not terribly low.

 

I've also had guildmates in the past who used to harvest Gypsum and put it in HB's at the ore for certain high level summoners, i've also seen conversation between high level summoners and their "mixing-LE-for-ingreds" friends.

 

So, i know first hand that these things do happen.

 

EDIT:

PS: Please wait with non-stackable summoning stones until I've had my turn at them, kk, thanks

QUICK! change them before Erma gets another one to 100!!

Edited September 5, 2008 by Korrode

[Aphistolas]

That's old. It isn't valid. Not to mention it appears to be his own personal interpretation of it so one can choose to rely on that quote as factual or not. I choose not.

 

@Erma: I choose not to agree