Snos as he signs here harrases noobs againt the rules

[Rayna]

Here is the link to the post with the full log, since snow chose to add it and forgot some of it.

 

 

Well I too was attacked by this player and his pumas.

 

He was summoning in a busy area, there were at least 7 players there and we were fighting wolf, and many just standing nearby at the entrance to cave in VOTD.

 

I accidentally pocked his puma, actually, it was around my feet and I was trying to poke a wolf, but it got it instead, and bammm, I was dead.

When I came back several players who saw what happened said he jumped my bag. I asked him for it back and started a trade.

 

He accepted the trade, then after a while ended it. What do you think he was waiting for, money?

 

He refused to give my things back and continued arguing and pming me, harassing me even after the mods told him to put ignore on, and same for me.

 

Even an hour later he still PMed me nasty abusive content. And in the local made comments in public.

 

[18:49:14] Snosrap cast Heal Summoned

[18:49:18] Snosrap: grr

[18:49:22] nahadu:

[18:50:40] Snosrap: i see a noob

Hourly time-stamp: log continued at 2008-03-14 18:51:27 localtime (Mountain Daylight Time)

[18:55:17] Snosrap: noob

[18:56:34] Snosrap: wow...the stench continues

[18:58:16] Snosrap: tj

[18:58:20] (*) Snosrap summoned a Puma

[18:58:29] nahadu: me 2 want some wolf :|

[18:58:43] Snosrap: well kill some

 

[19:02:26] (*) Snosrap summoned a Puma

[19:02:49] Snosrap: trouble maker

[19:04:51] Snosrap: oh my the stench

[19:05:24] (*) Snosrap summoned a Puma

 

[19:07:43] [PM from Snosrap: dont just stand there...train]

 

The text between these is private between a mod and myself. He had called the mod claiming I was insulting him. I hadnt realized he had PMed me yet again and my pm went to him instead of the person I was talking with:

 

[19:08:24] [PM to Snosrap: so bye, and thanks, I really do appreciate you folks being there for us.]

[19:08:36] [PM from Snosrap: lol]

 

 

He goes on, again while I am talking with someone else:

 

[19:11:23] [PM from Snosrap: u so full of it...i hope u quit]

 

I had been playing the game for a long time and was chatting with a friend when I got this:

 

[21:06:12] [PM from Snosrap: u still a turd]

 

I told the friend and was asked why he wasn't on ignore, well that was dumb of me, and I did it right then. I had just forgotten when I came back from the game.

 

I never said, or made a single comment to Snos the whole time he was doing that as I was busy, and very done with this player who finds fun in harassing the new player and jumping their bags.

 

Interestingly their guild claims:

 

Guild Limited Addiction has 65 members. The guild URL is: http://home.comcast.net/~Limited_Addiction

General info: A guild made for training and fun. NO BAG JUMPERS, SCAMMERS OR TROUBLE MAKERS! Guild map, Guard bot and Trade bot active.

Joining the guild: You must be 18 years or older, have Att/Def 80+ & No bad EL History. Joining is by invitation ONLY! PM BadDude or MissPriss for info.

 

 

I believe Snos is all three of those things. If he were in it for the fun and the training, he would protect your bag until you returned, and then advise you what happened.

 

Instead he is rude and insulting, and addicted to trying to get you to fight with him, and calls a mod as interference. Very sad indeed.

 

 

I have left all the nasty PMS back and forth out, snos called the mod, when I told him he was wrong and when he least expected it he would die and his bag would be gone when he came back.

 

But perhaps he cannot PK and only picks on the new players? There are other posts here regarding this exact same behavior.

 

 

This is harassment, is it not?

Edited March 17, 2008 by Rayna

[korrode]

I have left all the nasty PMS back and forth out

I wanna see them. An uncut log from start to end... i guess if you want to edit out PM's to and from mods u can, but imo you shouldn't.

I have no doubt your PM's to Snos will warrant whatever attitude he gave you. Prove me wrong if i am.

[anima]

there are written rules like the one matty quotes and unwritten rules, this forum is for posting people who break the unwritten ones, if you break the written ones you will end up banned probably, that is a whole other forum.

 

people are free to post people in this forum for bajumping or not returning stuff

Edited March 16, 2008 by anima

[sora_barzahd]

I'd also like to see the full chat logs to. Really, you can't just make claims, show half of the logs when something obviously led to an escalated point, and expect everyone to go along with it.

[caecus]

I don't want to step on any toes because it seems snosrap is quite popular but I've recently seen first hand on my newb alt the tactics he uses.

 

One, I know he has the right to summon anywhere but have you ever wondered why it's that one particular spawn when there's a better spawn in nc by skf exit?

Two, when you, the fighter, have just killed an animal/monster, what do you do next? Point the cursor at the bags and pick them up. Guess what snosrap did with his summons every time I killed the wolves? He led his pack deliberately near the bag to cover it up. And yet you guys all blame new players to this game to know better. Why not say newbs should know better than being led into unknown maps?

 

I agree this is a great tactic and but one that will surely continue to spur countless threads like this because most newbs don't know otherwise. Look in the outlaw section and see how many there are already.

[WolfWitch]

I agree with St, I would like to see FULL logs they are always handy in cases like this.

 

I have always known Snos to be polite, helpful and always there for an ally in need. I fail to see how training summoning has caused such accusations. People train summoning in votd all the time, I don't see the area in question as highly populated so where is the problem.

 

If you think someone is summoning in the wrong area, alert the mods with #abuse, but be sure of your facts and don't waste thier time.

 

And as for "[19:07:43] [PM from Snosrap: dont just stand there...train]" well this is just my take on it but I would interpret that as meaning "I am not here for wolves so carry on I am not trying to get in your way" or "I do not object if you attack my puma if you wish too" but I don't see it as "Go ahead and try a puma you are strong enough".

 

As for the charge of harasment......IMO NOT guilty!

 

With Love and Light

Wolfy

[Aphistolas]

I agree with St, I would like to see FULL logs they are always handy in cases like this.

 

I have always known Snos to be polite, helpful and always there for an ally in need. I fail to see how training summoning has caused such accusations. People train summoning in votd all the time, I don't see the area in question as highly populated so where is the problem.

 

If you think someone is summoning in the wrong area, alert the mods with #abuse, but be sure of your facts and don't waste thier time.

 

And as for "[19:07:43] [PM from Snosrap: dont just stand there...train]" well this is just my take on it but I would interpret that as meaning "I am not here for wolves so carry on I am not trying to get in your way" or "I do not object if you attack my puma if you wish too" but I don't see it as "Go ahead and try a puma you are strong enough".

 

As for the charge of harasment......IMO NOT guilty!

 

With Love and Light

Wolfy

 

I trust your judgement Wolfy, but is Snos were really the gentleman you portray him, surely he would've been chivalrous enough to move his summons away?

 

In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether you've been playing five minutes, or fifty years, the rules (both written and community) apply to everyone, regardless of location/levels/experience/daily routine/other trivial factors/etc. I dislike the mentality where everyone thinks only new players cause trouble, when surely it's the polar-difference. Selective justice, I believe the term is, Snos is an old-time ELers and therefore allowed more leniency when dealing with the community/forum/game rules, the same goes for all 'old time ELers'. Newbs in general, must abide by the rules precisely. This is fair, how?

[LevinMage]

I trust your judgement Wolfy, but is Snos were really the gentleman you portray him, surely he would've been chivalrous enough to move his summons away?

 

He isn't summoning there for the sake of just summoning, but to also get wolf/deer furs to summon with. He chose that place like other beginner a/d trainers because of the high density area of monsters, and has just as much right as a a/d trainer there to be training his summoning skill. Misclicking on an animal or monster happens and I think almost all of us have died from it at one time or another. Deal with it, move along, and just pay more attention to what you are doing. Also, people dont have to click on a bag to open it, just drop some random item onto the ground and the bag will open. That way you wont have blame someone else for your mistake and killing you.

 

Rayna: Please let us see the full chat logs. BTW, you said "I have left all the nasty PMS back and forth out" and yet did not post, which is EXTREMELY unusual and makes me think you said some very not so nice things to Snos.

 

Edited for grammer/spelling

Edited March 16, 2008 by LevinMage

[Snosrap]

OK...just found this post and thought i would post this to show why I reported Rayna. I only summon to help me get wolfs to train with on summoning. Like always, I only summon one at a time. Yes I give some players some crap when they complain about what happens, but the problem was Rayna's following me around and pm me serious insults.

 

***Guild messages only thing removed****

 

[18:25:36] rayna wants to trade with you. Use the trade icon then click on him/her in order to accept the trade.

 

[18:25:52] You aborted the trade.

 

[18:26:08] rayna wants to trade with you. Use the trade icon then click on him/her in order to accept the trade.

[18:26:13] Snosrap: stop

[18:27:05] [PM to rayna: u will be reported as a nuisance if u do not stop]

[18:27:10] [PM from rayna: give my my stuff back]

[18:27:13] [PM from rayna: jerk]

[18:27:18] [PM to rayna: f off]

[18:27:26] [PM from rayna: fuck you dude]

[18:27:42] [PM to rayna: now u get reported]

[18:27:47] [PM from rayna: I will come back with a friend to kill you, lmao]

[18:28:10] [PM to rayna: i did not take stuff...so back off b4 u get abused]

[18:28:13] [PM from rayna: hes twice you, so watch out buddy]

[18:28:25] You see: Snosrap

[18:28:28] [PM from rayna: bull I have witnesses, lol]

[18:28:58] [PM to rayna: so what u attack my summon...u deserve to die...now stop pm me]

[18:29:15] Can't attack, you are already fighting!

[18:29:19] You see a tree.

[18:29:28] You see a road.

[18:29:50] [PM from rayna: you ass]

[18:30:03] [PM from rayna: who knew that?]

[18:30:59] [PM from rayna: he will rip you apart, lmao, you big guy picking on little girls...what a dum as they do that in your LA guild?]

[18:31:15] [PM to rayna: u now ignored]

[18:31:19] rayna was added to your ignore list!

[18:31:34] Snosrap: i smell a turd

[18:32:16] Welcome to Nordcarn

[18:32:44] You see a rock.

[18:33:04] Welcome to Valley of the Dwarves

[18:33:34] Warning: rayna is on your #ignore list

[18:33:34] [PM to rayna: u dumb noobs think u know how to play this game...grow some nads and grow up]

[18:34:46] Fenrir kicks ghost

[Vanyel]

I'd suggest not trying to interprete rules in a way they support your point.

If we extend rule no. 16 as it was suggested in this thread summoning would be a bannable offence as it may cause lags per se. If we consider every single place that has more than 5 people around (what range, though?) finding a quiet and lonely place would be pretty impossible. Additionally, using summoning arenas would have to be considered breaking the rule as well. Might happen there are 5 or more people using the same arena after all.

Honestly, summoning near NPCs, entrances to specific areas (storages, arenas, caves) is considered a rule violation. Summoning in a plain field? Rather not.

Additionally, I'm getting irritated by people summoning rats (even one:P) around me. Does it mean they are breaking the aformentioned rule or rather something's wrong with me?

Isla Prima is an absolutely different case, though. The rule is very strict about summoning on IP. No other creatures than natural inhabitants or IP and its insides (i.e. tavern, houses, caves). No summoning at all near the Beam or the Wraith. No leading your summoned creatures to the Beam or the Wraith. Reasons? Both the Beam and the Wraith are rather populated areas (15+ players). Moreover, there are lots of newcomers to the game on IP. They have no idea about summonned creatures and attacks them happily. They often get killed due to differences in attack and defence between regular and summonned creatures.

[Eternity]

Despite the questioned validity of this post, I do think it was rather unnecessary for all of L.A. to come and flame a newbie. Obviously Rayna thought it was bagjumping, and it is up to us to tell her she attacked the summon and died, so it is Snosrap's bag. She stated she learned not to get in unnecessary flame wars with anyone anymore as well.

 

It was a mistake. Mistakes should be handled civilly.

[robotbob]

As a person now fully pursuing summoning (bear stones atm,why he is doing wolves at his level I have no idea) again I would like

for some clarification on allowed summoning behavior.

 

1) if pumas are not natural to votd and he uses them to kill wolves, can I summon skeletons or better there for the same goal?

 

2) How many is -too many- summons.

 

3) isnt it better to summon in an arena, save mana, and pay newbs for wolf fur. It is cheaper, since srs are far more expensive?

 

4) isn't it the right of the newb to kill your summons for exp, the same as any perceived right to they remaining unharmed?

 

5) If I see someone die to a monster, is it not bjing -if- I was the person who created\made it enter the game? Or is it now just

free to take and not bjing?

 

The natural-inhabitants part is only about Isla Prima:

I just saw this line, can someone give a official clarification. Can I summons MCs in votd?

(Edit2: Or a fluffy rabbit for that matter, I imagine all the non natural-inhabitants carnage I can get with this one)

Edited March 18, 2008 by robotbob

[Aislinn]

As a person now fully pursuing summoning (bear stones atm,why he is doing wolves at his level I have no idea) again I would like

for some clarification on allowed summoning behavior.

I'll take a stab at these...interesting questions and not easy to answer.

 

1) if pumas are not natural to votd and he uses them to kill wolves, can I summon skeletons or better there for the same goal?

Answering as a mod here. In theory yes. That said, I feel that the wolf spawn in votd is definitely one of those "grey area" locations. It is a popular spawn for both experienced and new players for a variety of reasons, plus it is very close to one of the busiest storages in EL. Unfortunately, there is no one answer. It will be judged on a case by case basis, depending on who's there, how many are there, and common sense. If somebody wants to press for a definitive yes or no, I would say no because unfortunately common sense tends to be lacking here way too often.

 

 

2) How many is -too many- summons.

Answering as a mod again. Impossible to answer That would depend on where you are, how many people are there, what effects are happening because of the summons, and what creature(s) are being summoned. Again this would be determined on a case by case basis.

 

A note to questions 1 and 2: While these seem like unhelpful answers, I do believe they are better than giving a flat out "No" and limiting summoning even more than rule #16 already does. As the rule states, if problems arise that are not specifically covered, a mod can be asked for and that mod will make a judgement call. Both sides are expected to honor that decision.

 

3) isnt it better to summon in an arena, save mana, and pay newbs for wolf fur. It is cheaper, since srs are far more expensive?

Answering as a struggling summoner: I believe the answer is yes. However, it also is not fair of us to decide for others what constitutes fun play. Not everyone wants to only do things to be practical and cost effective. Some people might just get a kick out of watching their summons do the work.

 

4) isn't it the right of the newb to kill your summons for exp, the same as any perceived right to they remaining unharmed?

Ehhh tough one. As a mod: I guess yes they have a right to kill your summons. As a summoner: I think it is horrendously rude to do so. It's my creation, leave it alone! If you do kill somebody's summons without their permission, don't expect to be on their favorites list.

 

5) If I see someone die to a monster, is it not bjing -if- I was the person who created\made it enter the game? Or is it now just free to take and not bjing?

Fortunately not a mod question I believe in the doctirine of "if it's in a bag for any reason including unintentional death or tp-ing off a harvest bag, it's fair game for everyone else". However, I think that if somebody died to my summons for any reason other than my summoning it in a pk map to intentionally pk someone, I would do the "right thing" and return the bag's contents. That said, I wouldn't be posting in outlaws if somebody didn't, it's still a deathbag and if you get it back you are VERY lucky.

 

Just saw your edit re: MC's and fluffies summoned in votd: Pretty much the same answer as your first question. It is only looking for trouble. It isn't like you have a shortage of more appropriate maps to summon them on. There are just too many new players there to make this a sensible thing to do. Again...common sense. If I answered a complaint about this as a mod, I would (of course assuming nothing out of the ordinary involved) ask the summoner to stop and I would kill off the remaining summons. You might get away with goblins and skellies and the equivilent as you described in question 1 depending on the current situation, but not much more.

[robotbob]

Thank you very much, Aislinn.

(and sorry for midly hijacking, it seemed an opportune time to ask these)

[Blodoks]

Thanks Aislinn.

To complete this "summoning guide", I would like to know if there are so many "grey area" about the punishment.

 

+2 years ago I was locked (1 week) cause I summoned two pumas in IP rat cave (after this, the rule was changed with more limitations), but in the same time MrMind was made pkable (1 week) cause pumas summoning in WS City.

From that episode I avoid to summon animal creatures in the standard maps to avoid any problems.

I think it limit a lot the fun of the game and the chance to collect ingredients (I'm thinking to the bones that I need in the other skills, for example, if I could summon 10-15 bears in the PL titanium cave), but it protect me to meet players like this Rayna

 

Which is the punishment to break rule #16?

Edited March 18, 2008 by Blodoks

[Ermabwed]

Would it be possible to copy the above few posts (including the answer to Blodoks' question) to the Skills/Summoning subforum? I think that might be useful for the general summoning populace

[Sayre]

Cleaned up this thread.

 

LA: Mind keeping your cheerleading to the edge of NC arena and not here?

 

Everyone else not directly involved or with nothing pertinent to say, bugger off.

 

Love. S.

[Aislinn]

Thanks Aislinn.

To complete this "summoning guide", I would like to know if there are so many "grey area" about the punishment.

 

+2 years ago I was locked (1 week) cause I summoned two pumas in IP rat cave (after this, the rule was changed with more limitations), but in the same time MrMind was made pkable (1 week) cause pumas summoning in WS City.

From that episode I avoid to summon animal creatures in the standard maps to avoid any problems.

I think it limit a lot the fun of the game and the chance to collect ingredients (I'm thinking to the bones that I need in the other skills, for example, if I could summon 10-15 bears in the PL titanium cave), but it protect me to meet players like this Rayna

 

Which is the punishment to break rule #16?

Not to pick a fight here, but Blodoks you were banned for a week because the puma was not your first summoning offense, or the first time you were warned and advised of the rules. It was an intentional gamble breaking the rule and you got caught

MrMind178 was made pkable for pretty much the same reason: almost daily abuse reports of him breaking the summoning rules intentionally. And the decision was made in his case that almost all of EL would LOVE to kill him

There is no one set punishment, nor was there a set length of time. There are always other factors involved, such as if it's a repeat offender, attitude to other players/mods when the issue is being handled, how BAD was the "crime", etc.

Also I bet it could be up for debate which was the worse punishment. Each case is discussed and decided upon based on it's own merits or lack of them, as always.

 

However I will caution you, that if any rule breaking is deemed lock/ban worthy (or an accumulation of enough to qualify as a chronic troublemaker and therefore falling under rule #25), it now falls under the new policy of an automatic 1 month (see my pinned post in the bans section).

[Raz]

3) isnt it better to summon in an arena, save mana, and pay newbs for wolf fur. It is cheaper, since srs are far more expensive?

Answering as a struggling summoner: I believe the answer is yes. However, it also is not fair of us to decide for others what constitutes fun play. Not everyone wants to only do things to be practical and cost effective. Some people might just get a kick out of watching their summons do the work.

Summon monsters in an area where you can get ings for more - ie snakes in Naralik - let them do the work for you! (srs/le/bones/meat can be bought - getting loads of snake/wolf skin can be hard)

Once you get to the level of mixing stones - you don't really summon ever again - just get high on Gypsum fumes.

If you do use an arena - NC-SKF is fast - just need protection in SKF

 

Just saw your edit re: MC's and fluffies summoned in votd: Pretty much the same answer as your first question. It is only looking for trouble. It isn't like you have a shortage of more appropriate maps to summon them on. There are just too many new players there to make this a sensible thing to do. Again...common sense. If I answered a complaint about this as a mod, I would (of course assuming nothing out of the ordinary involved) ask the summoner to stop and I would kill off the remaining summons. You might get away with goblins and skellies and the equivilent as you described in question 1 depending on the current situation, but not much more.

To be honest given the cost of summoning fluffy and above - they really only have a use in pk - or an extremely lucrative spawn (if such a thing exists) - certainly not in VOTD!

[Aislinn]

Once you get to the level of mixing stones - you don't really summon ever again - just get high on Gypsum fumes.

I disagree with this, I do both...partly because I need breaks from the monotony of mixing the stones at the gypsum, and partly because it's still fun to summon creatures! That was the point of taking up the skill, to "create" life and have it follow me around.

[Tempest]

Once you get to the level of mixing stones - you don't really summon ever again - just get high on Gypsum fumes.

I disagree with this, I do both...partly because I need breaks from the monotony of mixing the stones at the gypsum, and partly because it's still fun to summon creatures! That was the point of taking up the skill, to "create" life and have it follow me around.

actually this is the point why im also still summoning pumas/wolves. but im doing it there, where no newbie has to bother with it. i mean it's not really hard to let the newbies train in peace and summon your stuff somewhere else. Still fun for me tho (and you will never get in trouble with the mods )

 

 

EDIT: sorry for getting a bit offtopic.

Edited March 18, 2008 by Tempest

[Wynand]

Cleaned up this thread.

 

LA: Mind keeping your cheerleading to the edge of NC arena and not here?

 

Everyone else not directly involved or with nothing pertinent to say, bugger off.

 

Love. S.

lol... I see your head has become larger but it still weighs the same?

 

I request that you re-instate my first post, since i see it as quite valid and 'pertinent' to the situation.

 

And now, to make this post 'pertinent' by just randomly talking about summoning, like everyone else:

 

While we are on the topic of normal summons vs stones. Why on earth do stones cost less and give more experience than a normal summon? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Another thing: why are all those low level creatures (like gobs/orcs/cyc's/etc) so expensive to summon, as opposed to their usefullness in battle? I think the ingredients should be thought over again, now that we have advanced so much further in the combat skills. People on this thread critisiced Snosrap for summoning wolves normally because stones give much more experience for less gc/exp ratio, but it shouldn't be that way.

 

And a last question: Due to lag, i have often summoned a bear/tiger in the underworld. I have once been reported for this and was told i had to kill off the creature. I also once saw a person with several bears around him in the underworld, but no1 seemed really concerned about it. Is it illegal to summon in the underworld?

[Tempest]

and now you wanna change the whole skill again... sure... what else.. as if u guys got nothing better to do.

i totally got nothing against snos or bernie or you or whoever.

but if you guys would be as smart as u pretend to be, then snos would move away from the newbies and summon his goddamn pumas somewhere else.

theres nothing hard about that and the whole discussion here wouldnt end up in changing the summoning skill again. its annoying.

 

 

EDIT: now i finally understand how uber pissed ent must be sometimes

Edited March 18, 2008 by Tempest

[Aislinn]

I request that you re-instate my first post, since i see it as quite valid and 'pertinent' to the situation.

 

I looked at your post and the verdict:

***unless otherwise stated, my posts are a load of crap, NOT worth reading.***

 

Also your last post's rant is more suitable to the skills section than this thread.

[wilbur_whateley]

actually this is the point why im also still summoning pumas/wolves. but im doing it there, where no newbie has to bother with it. i mean it's not really hard to let the newbies train in peace and summon your stuff somewhere else.

 

I agree with Tempest. People should understand that for newbs Votd is a place where to train a/d. It's not just a simple spawn point. I think that it's not "fair" to use summoned creatures in populated area like Votd that is also considered a training area. Also: you can summon creatures and take more spawns even if in a "training place", but you can't kill spawned creatures because it's rude... I don't understand this, sorry.