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#21 Aislinn

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 01:04 PM

Because some bot code isn't as smart as others or the bot owners have hard coded ads.


My opinion is that there should be some sort of code standard.

#22 vinoveritas

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 02:24 PM

Well i agree changing advertising to the avaiable items, for the price sounds, good, as does the idea of having the free slots and emu shown.
To stop advertising because slots or emu is full, i think is a bad idea, because that might change in the 15 minutes of the time from advertise to buy/sell
but if it is shown on a wanted question or link of a said webpage you should know to go there or not.

As for gc Mercator wants the gc for buying products at the time i ask him to buy it. if it is not done that way, the amount of gc should be shown.

#23 revi

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 03:07 PM

So it looks like most people are in favor of bot code not offering to buy things when the bot has no gc or no free inv slots.

Dogbreath (and other bot coders) - can you please make this change to your code?

I always make sure to keep enough gc on my bot to buy anything it is trying to, but I will put my money where my mouth is and make this update to my bot code too.


One little nit here:
not buying because no free slots is going to be a bit of a pain to code correctly, as there's enough items that stack... As long as there's free emu you still can buy those, provided you have at least one in inventory. So you'd have to be able to reliably identify non-stacking items (item_info.txt does not have that information). (If you have none of a given item in stock, and no free slots, it's easy...)

#24 FeaRM

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 04:12 PM


So it looks like most people are in favor of bot code not offering to buy things when the bot has no gc or no free inv slots.

Dogbreath (and other bot coders) - can you please make this change to your code?

I always make sure to keep enough gc on my bot to buy anything it is trying to, but I will put my money where my mouth is and make this update to my bot code too.


One little nit here:
not buying because no free slots is going to be a bit of a pain to code correctly, as there's enough items that stack... As long as there's free emu you still can buy those, provided you have at least one in inventory. So you'd have to be able to reliably identify non-stacking items (item_info.txt does not have that information). (If you have none of a given item in stock, and no free slots, it's easy...)


well you can always get the number of slots and emu available from http://bots.el-services.net/

it takes 5 seconds to go check that so id say its not such a big deal if you dont code that in but for amount of gc the bot has on him, i think that would be very useful and at the moment, you cant get that info for most bots

#25 Nardo Lala

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 04:57 PM

Normally I also check webpages first before travelling. There are bot owners who would mind if their gc amount on the bots would be made public, I don't, but if not too difficult to code: add the option to opt out/in and any botowner would be happy. Its up to the customer to trust and travel to bots without their gc amount not public.

#26 saxum

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 05:06 PM

well you can always get the number of slots and emu available from http://bots.el-services.net/


Just to let you know not all bots listed on that site, just those hosted there.

#27 Quesar

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 05:22 PM


well you can always get the number of slots and emu available from http://bots.el-services.net/


Just to let you know not all bots listed on that site, just those hosted there.

I keep trying to spread the word about using querybot instead. A good chunk of bots are not listed by el-services. Thank you for bringing this up too.



So it looks like most people are in favor of bot code not offering to buy things when the bot has no gc or no free inv slots.

Dogbreath (and other bot coders) - can you please make this change to your code?

I always make sure to keep enough gc on my bot to buy anything it is trying to, but I will put my money where my mouth is and make this update to my bot code too.


One little nit here:
not buying because no free slots is going to be a bit of a pain to code correctly, as there's enough items that stack... As long as there's free emu you still can buy those, provided you have at least one in inventory. So you'd have to be able to reliably identify non-stacking items (item_info.txt does not have that information). (If you have none of a given item in stock, and no free slots, it's easy...)


This is a good point that I hadn't considered.

Even just adding the 'sufficient gc' test to the ads and the wanted list (and website too ofc) would be a giant improvement.

Edited by Quesar, 17 October 2011 - 05:25 PM.


#28 Learner

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 05:56 PM



well you can always get the number of slots and emu available from http://bots.el-services.net/


Just to let you know not all bots listed on that site, just those hosted there.

I keep trying to spread the word about using querybot instead. A good chunk of bots are not listed by el-services. Thank you for bringing this up too.

Using ANY external query service is likely to have even more outdated information then any other source. The information can easily be old or incorrect! Suggesting anyone use use a third party query tool to avoid a bot not having enough GC is NOT a good solution. Those sites are good for initial research, but not for anything that is valid.

For instance, anyone attempting to scrap my bots websites will get DIFFERENT results there from WANTED ! In my case, the WANTED information is much more up to date & takes into account gc, slots, & EMU while the website shows the raw public wanted quantity without attempting to account for everything.

#29 Quesar

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 06:36 PM




well you can always get the number of slots and emu available from http://bots.el-services.net/


Just to let you know not all bots listed on that site, just those hosted there.

I keep trying to spread the word about using querybot instead. A good chunk of bots are not listed by el-services. Thank you for bringing this up too.

Using ANY external query service is likely to have even more outdated information then any other source. The information can easily be old or incorrect! Suggesting anyone use use a third party query tool to avoid a bot not having enough GC is NOT a good solution. Those sites are good for initial research, but not for anything that is valid.

For instance, anyone attempting to scrap my bots websites will get DIFFERENT results there from WANTED ! In my case, the WANTED information is much more up to date & takes into account gc, slots, & EMU while the website shows the raw public wanted quantity without attempting to account for everything.

Querybot is updated every 10 or 15 minutes, so it won't be very far out of date. It's best to confirm it with a /botname wanted before actually going to it though of course.

#30 aredhel

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 08:38 PM

Dogbreath (and other bot coders) - can you please make this change to your code?


Grrrrr.. obviously, Quesar and Nova, you are soon going to invent a bot that can read minds, the owner's as well as the customer's, and miraculously find an intelligent compromise that satisfies both sides.

ok, having let off the steam, I agree with many here, owners should keep their prices up to date, and putting very unrealistic prices (in the hope someone is an idiot or desperate) isn't exactly very becoming, either. Better take them off the INV/WANTED lists altogether.
Those bots don't get many trades i hope.

The orange for 19k advert is a good example for having become "the odd furniture" to instancers. But what can we do, when a bot owner is away from game ? This would be a good question to solve in this thread.

As for the not enough gc issue, in any case it can only work with INV and WANTED, i guess you need to listen to Learner's and Dogbreath's assessments what is realistic to achieve, since the mind-reading computer (as opposed to many users' wishes) has not been built yet.

#31 Learner

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 08:46 PM


Dogbreath (and other bot coders) - can you please make this change to your code?


Grrrrr.. obviously, Quesar and Nova, you are soon going to invent a bot that can read minds, the owner's as well as the customer's, and miraculously find an intelligent compromise that satisfies both sides.

ok, having let off the steam, I agree with many here, owners should keep their prices up to date, and putting very unrealistic prices (in the hope someone is an idiot or desperate) isn't exactly very becoming, either. Better take them off the INV/WANTED lists altogether.
Those bots don't get many trades i hope.

The orange for 19k advert is a good example for having become "the odd furniture" to instancers. But what can we do, when a bot owner is away from game ? This would be a good question to solve in this thread.

As for the not enough gc issue, in any case it can only work with INV and WANTED, i guess you need to listen to Learner's and Dogbreath's assessments what is realistic to achieve, since the mind-reading computer (as opposed to many users' wishes) has not been built yet.


I wonder how Dogbreath likes having all of the bots he hosts scraped every 15 minutes? Might also help explain why sometimes that service seems slow when you look at the number of bots involved. I make it a habit to block people that abuse my service like that with getting permission beforehand.

#32 Nova

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:29 PM

Bot's don't have minds, they have code. Code can be read and it's pretty amazing what you can do with the right code.

#33 Quesar

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:34 PM



Dogbreath (and other bot coders) - can you please make this change to your code?


Grrrrr.. obviously, Quesar and Nova, you are soon going to invent a bot that can read minds, the owner's as well as the customer's, and miraculously find an intelligent compromise that satisfies both sides.

ok, having let off the steam, I agree with many here, owners should keep their prices up to date, and putting very unrealistic prices (in the hope someone is an idiot or desperate) isn't exactly very becoming, either. Better take them off the INV/WANTED lists altogether.
Those bots don't get many trades i hope.

The orange for 19k advert is a good example for having become "the odd furniture" to instancers. But what can we do, when a bot owner is away from game ? This would be a good question to solve in this thread.

As for the not enough gc issue, in any case it can only work with INV and WANTED, i guess you need to listen to Learner's and Dogbreath's assessments what is realistic to achieve, since the mind-reading computer (as opposed to many users' wishes) has not been built yet.


I wonder how Dogbreath likes having all of the bots he hosts scraped every 15 minutes? Might also help explain why sometimes that service seems slow when you look at the number of bots involved. I make it a habit to block people that abuse my service like that with getting permission beforehand.

I specifically requested being added for my bot. The service is in your best interest anyway, as it helps to lead customers to your bots. A few kb every 10 or 15 minutes should not be a big deal.

@aredhel - I am suggesting a change to the code. As you apparently have 0 experience coding. Perhaps you should keep your suggestions in line with your knowledge?

Edited by Quesar, 17 October 2011 - 09:36 PM.


#34 revi

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 01:11 PM


...

One little nit here:
not buying because no free slots is going to be a bit of a pain to code correctly, as there's enough items that stack... As long as there's free emu you still can buy those, provided you have at least one in inventory. So you'd have to be able to reliably identify non-stacking items (item_info.txt does not have that information). (If you have none of a given item in stock, and no free slots, it's easy...)


well you can always get the number of slots and emu available from http://bots.el-services.net/

it takes 5 seconds to go check that so id say its not such a big deal if you dont code that in but for amount of gc the bot has on him, i think that would be very useful and at the moment, you cant get that info for most bots


You missed the point, which was NOT about the bot's clients checking free emu and slots (let alone available gc, especially the latter is none of their business). Instead, we were talking about the bot not offering to buy items it couldn't accept (either through not having enough gc, not enough emu or not enough slots). Hint: bot code has no problem figuring out free emu, free slots or available gc.

To be honest, I'd rather not advertise free space or available gc, if only to make life just a little bit more difficult for scammers (let them waste their time on empty bots ;) )

#35 Schmurk

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 05:54 AM

I'm also very disappointed each time I want to sell something to a bot and it says me that it doesn't have enough gcs. For the emu and slots, it can easily be checked before moving to the bot so that's ok.

A simple solution to display what the bot can really buy is to add a third column to the wanted list. This column would show for each item how many it can really buy according to the available slots/emu/gcs.
This way, you don't need to remove the items from the list which will not confuse users.

Just my 2 cents.

#36 revi

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:24 PM

For me, it is the responsibility of the bot owner, to make sure the bot has a reasonable amount of gc to buy stuff,
and sufficient free slots if you want non-stackables. If the owner gets lazy/sloppy, so that the bot is regularly
out of slots/emu/gc, that bot will lose customers.

Having the code adjusted, so that the bot only advertises what it actually can buy based on slots/emu/gc is:
1 - not all that simple (stackables, trade in kind: item against item, etc)
2 - making the code more complicated (so more chances for bugs)
3 - putting a burden on the wrong person (i.e. on the coder, not on the owner)

I agree it is unpleasant to arrive at a bot that can't buy what it offered to buy (and yes, it happened to me as well).
But I don't think the coder should be the one to solve the problem, so the owners can continue to be lazy.

That said, some fairly simple intermediate solutions are possible:
- no 'wanted' list when out of emu (or gc below a certain level), just a message (simple, and you cannot buy anything when out of emu)
- filter the list to eliminate all items of which there's none in stock when out of slots (still not too complicated).
You'll still end up running into bots that cannot buy what they advertise as buying, but well, see above :P

#37 Learner

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:39 PM

For me, it is the responsibility of the bot owner, to make sure the bot has a reasonable amount of gc to buy stuff,
and sufficient free slots if you want non-stackables. If the owner gets lazy/sloppy, so that the bot is regularly
out of slots/emu/gc, that bot will lose customers.

Having the code adjusted, so that the bot only advertises what it actually can buy based on slots/emu/gc is:
1 - not all that simple (stackables, trade in kind: item against item, etc)
2 - making the code more complicated (so more chances for bugs)
3 - putting a burden on the wrong person (i.e. on the coder, not on the owner)

I agree it is unpleasant to arrive at a bot that can't buy what it offered to buy (and yes, it happened to me as well).
But I don't think the coder should be the one to solve the problem, so the owners can continue to be lazy.

That said, some fairly simple intermediate solutions are possible:
- no 'wanted' list when out of emu (or gc below a certain level), just a message (simple, and you cannot buy anything when out of emu)
- filter the list to eliminate all items of which there's none in stock when out of slots (still not too complicated).
You'll still end up running into bots that cannot buy what they advertise as buying, but well, see above :P

It is a complicated process, but can be done. My bots for years have adjusted their internal wanted lists & and advertisements based on available GC, EMU, number of slots, and your status with the bot (normal, friend, enemy) as well as a smart bot owner can even specify certain items are no longer desired if the available EMU is below a limit. In my case this information is available in game, not the website, since that is a general reference.

This is something the bot developers have to do, first before the bot owners can do anything though. Yes, a bot owner should be responsible for making sure the bot has GC if he expects to buy the item, but he shouldn't have to keep adjusting his wanted list just because of the GC level since sometimes a bot can run out of GC in a very short time when expensive items are involved. This is an issue about features in the bot code, not how users use the bots.

#38 Quesar

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 05:19 PM

OK, after about 15-20 minutes of coding, I've added a whopping total of 8 lines of code to my bot, and changed 2 lines. Now it will not list items for querybot that it doesn't have gc for, it will not print them in the wanted list, and it will not advertise them.

This is not an undue strain on bot coders. This is a simple change. While it's easy to say "but it's the bot owners job", the simple fact is many are too lazy, or not even in game anymore to do it. This is something that can easily be fixed with code.

Handling item slots would be much more difficult, yes. I did not do anything to code for that. But in my opinion, gc is the biggest problem from the experiences I've had so far, and that is VERY easy to code for.

#39 revi

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:20 PM

It is a complicated process, but can be done. My bots for years have adjusted their internal wanted lists & and advertisements based on available GC, EMU, number of slots, and your status with the bot (normal, friend, enemy) as well as a smart bot owner can even specify certain items are no longer desired if the available EMU is below a limit. In my case this information is available in game, not the website, since that is a general reference.


Of course it can be done. It's just that a full adjustment of the wanted list taking into account all factors that could stop a bot from buying an item that is listed as wanted gets a bit complicated.

This is something the bot developers have to do, first before the bot owners can do anything though. Yes, a bot owner should be responsible for making sure the bot has GC if he expects to buy the item, but he shouldn't have to keep adjusting his wanted list just because of the GC level since sometimes a bot can run out of GC in a very short time when expensive items are involved. This is an issue about features in the bot code, not how users use the bots.


As in many things, both have their responsibilities.
Yes, a bot can run out of gc very fast. That can always happen, and that's not in itself difficult to code for.
There remains the problem that barter becomes difficult to take into account when you don't list items as wanted when you don't have enough gc to buy them.

My reasoning was more that the problem of slots and emu is the bot owner's problem, in that he should have a realistic 'wanted' list (and not 40+ items where there's only 36 slots, and I've seen such bots) and keep an eye on things to prevent constant lack of gc, slots or emu. If simple coding can then catch the remaining problems, all the better. BUT, I refuse to pander to the owners that systematically have too little gc/slots/emu on their bot. All the more so as doing this properly is a complicated process (as you said above)

This ties in with remarks elsewhere about bots listing ridiculous prices (in today's market) in their wanted lists.

#40 vinoveritas

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 06:37 AM

I am going to make an website for game items list, that will be editable in a way for the known items, all known statuses will be not editable, but the stackable and non stackable list will be, and mercator himself will be able to change the "Flag " stackable if he sees that one item uses more then 1 slot. Hope having a list with all informtation about if item is stackable or not, will make it easier for people to implement a feature that makes a change in wanted list at free slots+ but i will be sure to include a + in a wanted list if i want more items then a slot has free. Because on mercator i will predefine the money to the items, in the quantity i buy. so he will never run out of money.
btw. http://rip-el.forumo...etsearch-h1.htm that uses http://greypal.el-fd...gi-bin/querybot database too has if avaiable the links to the website of those bots.
so people can and should have a list there what is there and not.




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