Laws discussed in germany relating to violent video games

[Entropy]

Long time ago, teenagers that were 15, or even younger, were pretty mature. What changed?

Well, the main cause, as I believe, is that now we overprotect the children. They can't go out and play (omfg, the pedophiles). They can't have jobs (omfg, child exploitation). They don't come home from school by themselves, because letting your child alone at home is child neglect and shit.

So basically the state is postponing the maturity age by quite a few years.

 

Just 100 years ago, and even today in some countries, children that were 15 worked their ass off and even had children, and it was OK. Now, in this brave new world we are living in, they are treated as if they are some fragile, precious things that can't be trusted with any responsibility, because they might break or something.

 

Given the fact that your personality forms in the early teenage years, I think it is very bad for a society to impose such strict laws that deprive children from any decission making. And this already shows, but wait for 10 more years to see the disastrous effects of such policies.

[Aislinn]

Long time ago, teenagers that were 15, or even younger, were pretty mature. What changed?

I absolutely agree with you here. BUT: life was a lot different 100-200-300-etc. years ago. People didn't live even half as long, we did not have the medical technology or knowledge then to cure and heal what we can cure and heal now. Also the majority of people did not go to college or get much of any education. They manually labored in mines, rudimentary factories, farming, sweat shop type jobs...girls got married young and had children young. That was mostly "what they did", there wasn't much else. People didn't get a fancy education then get a job offer on the other side of the country to "save themselves" for. Families were extended then, everybody helped and worked. That was all they had. One had no choice but to be responsible and work. And kids didn't have nintendo, Xbox, the internet, movies, fancy cars, etc etc etc to take the place of responsibility and work. Lots changed.

 

Given the fact that your personality forms in the early teenage years, I think it is very bad for a society to impose such strict laws that deprive children from any decission making. And this already shows, but wait for 10 more years to see the disastrous effects of such policies.

I agree with this too. BUT: given the society that is in place NOW and the requirements needed now to succeed even marginally, how does it benefit our children (kids, teens, all groups) to just let them do as they please and if they get in trouble (arrested for dwi, pregnant, etc), say: "oh well, go on welfare now"?

 

Let me add here, that while it's great that we have all this technology and toys and gadgets and long life...I think people as a whole are too spoiled, too unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. Something did go wrong imo. So much progress on one level, and so much backsliding on the other. But now we are stuck having to deal with and fix the social mess we created. I expect there will be a lot of trial and error, but at least government is trying. We have to work with what we've got. Preaching about an ideal world doesn't help anything.

[Ghostsong]

Ok, well, as far as the video game censoring goes, I believe (for the sake of compromise) you should just sensor the age, not that I totally age with censors but lets face it, people will whine so some measures should be taken to shut them up, at least a little lol

 

As far as minors having sex with each other etc, This should not be punished by the law. Early education is the best defense against pregnancy, STD’s etc. Warning them about real life facts and not what god or gods want you to do and not do, just isn’t logical (no offense to religion). Sure, waiting till until you are ready and mature is a good thing, but teenagers will be teenagers and not listen to anyone but themselves, but at least give them a head start and really try and related to them and maybe they will at least be a little safer about it, that is the responsible way to handle it in my opinion.

 

Yes, the U.S. is going through some dark days, we use to stand for something and now we have become a weak country that panders to big corperations that don’t give a damn about what happens to the citizens of this country, as long as they make a profit. We use to stand for freedom, now we stand for a lot of things that we use to stand up against. It is sad, hopefully one day we can get back to being a country that upholds its own ideals instead of trashing them and circumventing all of the principals we use to stand for.

 

Just my 2 cents, if you disagree, that is your right…..I hope.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Ghostsong

[Entropy]

BUT: given the society that is in place NOW and the requirements needed now to succeed even marginally, how does it benefit our children (kids, teens, all groups) to just let them do as they please and if they get in trouble (arrested for dwi, pregnant, etc), say: "oh well, go on welfare now"?

 

I would not advocate telling children: Do whatever the fuck you want.

For example, DUI is really bad, because it has the potential of killing or injuring others. But telling kids not to drink is stupid. Instead, they should educate them and tell them about the fact that DUI is not cool. Same with getting pregnant. Now I am aware that the cunts from MAD and DARE to some extent tell kids that DUI is bad, but they don't tell them: If you drink, please drink responsibly, and do NOT drive if you drunk more than 1 beer. Instead, they tell them: Don't drink at all, drinking is bad for you, and other bullshit like that. Then DARE comes and tells kids that weed is a bad, strongly addictive drug.

So when kids realize that all this is bullshit, they will think: HMM, maybe the DUI stuff is also bullshit.

[Aislinn]

Education is the key.

It also is a sad reality that not all parents are responsible and educate their children.

It is a sad reality not all children have parents to educate them.

It is a sad reality that some parents don't discipline their children in any manner to teach to be responsible for their actions, but rather blame everything else under the sun or say "it's not that bad, he's only a kid".

So when these children do not do the responsible thing, whether it be no sex, safe sex, no drinking, responsible drinking, not killing or stealing, not smoking, pick something... it still ends up a drain on our society: financially, emotionally, and socially.

It is not surprising that governments are choosing to try to combat this.

[bromber]

I agree with this too. BUT: given the society that is in place NOW and the requirements needed now to succeed even marginally, how does it benefit our children (kids, teens, all groups) to just let them do as they please and if they get in trouble (arrested for dwi, pregnant, etc), say: "oh well, go on welfare now"?

 

Let me add here, that while it's great that we have all this technology and toys and gadgets and long life...I think people as a whole are too spoiled, too unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. Something did go wrong imo. So much progress on one level, and so much backsliding on the other. But now we are stuck having to deal with and fix the social mess we created. I expect there will be a lot of trial and error, but at least government is trying. We have to work with what we've got. Preaching about an ideal world doesn't help anything.

 

I have to agree socity today is not what it was the big diffrence is that teens now a days know how to use the system and get from it mostly this is past down from the adults around then (normaly from greed), i know this as i see it evey day where i live, teens having kids just so they dont have to work and to get housing (btw im in the uk and its so easy to get housing if u have kids), it use to be teens aged 16 (or around that) now its getting younger and the parents are not stopping it, some in the area that i know of openly let there kids do it just so they will get housed.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11...3-baby-age.html

 

What going to happen next kids teaching kids how to grow up..... this can only go wrong

[Ghostsong]

I would not advocate telling children: Do whatever the fuck you want.

For example, DUI is really bad, because it has the potential of killing or injuring others. But telling kids not to drink is stupid. Instead, they should educate them and tell them about the fact that DUI is not cool. Same with getting pregnant. Now I am aware that the cunts from MAD and DARE to some extent tell kids that DUI is bad, but they don't tell them: If you drink, please drink responsibly, and do NOT drive if you drunk more than 1 beer. Instead, they tell them: Don't drink at all, drinking is bad for you, and other bullshit like that. Then DARE comes and tells kids that weed is a bad, strongly addictive drug.

So when kids realize that all this is bullshit, they will think: HMM, maybe the DUI stuff is also bullshit.

 

I have to agree to some extent with Ent here, responsible education over fear mongering and telling teens etc that all this stuff is just bad and don't do it is the first way to just entice teens to disobey and do whatever they want. If teens are going to drink, show them the hard facts about what happens when they get into a car and what can happen, but don't tell them, don't drink at all because it is bad and that's it. Sure, not all may agree that under age drinking is a good thing, but if it happens, contain it, tell them if they are going to do things like that to hang up their keys and at least be safe about it.

 

As far as Dare, I don't even want to go there because D.A.R.E and the U.S.'s so called drug war have hurt the U.S. more than it has helped it, imho at least.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Ghostsong

[The_Piper]

It is not surprising that governments are choosing to try to combat this.

 

Well.. its surprising that governments combat this:

 

Smoking is bad, BUT governments support farmers who plant tobacco and make good money from taxes on tobacco and cigarettes.

 

Alcohol is bad, BUT governments make good money from taxes on alcohol.

 

Violence is bad, so lets ban violent video games (YAY, back on topic ), BUT governments dont even DARE to make sure, that kids dont have access to weapons easily (even here in germany, just go to fathers cabinet and take his gun, if he is a member of a shooting club, or become a member of a shooting club yourself)

 

And now i am somehow with Radu: Its simple bullshit to forbid everything but not to enforce it, or even make money with it! Or, just try to cure/forbit the sympthoms, but not the root of all evil.

 

Drugs? All evil, fine, but what is a drug? Heroin? Wrong, thats a cough medicine. Beer? Thats rated as food over here, now think.

 

Hemp? Very evil, because it could be used to substitute a lot of stuff, like steel, plastic, cotton, could be used as a pain reliever too, but where will we end when everybody grows his own pain reliever in his garden and doesnt buy it from the chemical industry??

 

Well, my 2 euro cents, which would fit as 2 US cents aswell, i guess.

 

Piper

[ShYne]

You can't really pick a few things and call the US a Facist nation ent ;/

 

iirsex minors can have sex with each other but non minors cant with minors

 

edit- epic grammer fail

 

Nope, the age of consent(legally have sexual conduct) is 15-16 depending on where you live in the U.S.

Edited June 18, 2009 by ShYne

[Entropy]

You can't really pick a few things and call the US a Facist nation ent ;/

 

iirsex minors can have sex with each other but non minors cant with minors

 

edit- epic grammer fail

 

Nope, the age of consent(legally have sexual conduct) is 15-16 depending on where you live in the U.S.

 

It's 15 (or 16) to 18.

There wasa case in Georgia where a 17 yo kid had oral sex with a 15 yo girl. The guy was sentenced to 10 years in jail. I love the laws that are there to protect the kids from themselves.

[Aislinn]

@piper:

I never said governments are doing it well. I never said they are doing it correctly. And of course they are hypocritical. I am just saying there are reasons that they do anything at all, and they all aren't bad. However they are trying to please themselves, and the people, and the businesses, and the contributors, and the news media, etc etc etc. and of course it will all be a disaster.

Of course the root of the problem(s) should be addressed but that's too hard Same as anywhere: doing the right thing, whatever that is, will naturally offend somebody (group, organization, corporation, $$$$$$$$$$) so nothing worthwhile gets done, just bandaids.

 

But meanwhile there are still some major societal problems that should be fixed somehow. I wouldn't chalk this current day's society as a shining example for humankind to be remembered by. And preaching how things (government? parents? education?) should be in the perfect world won't fix them. We have to work with what we've got.

[GarfieldClowntje]

Nice subject to talk about ... and good to see that most are more or less on the same page on what is good / bad.

 

My 2 cents:

 

Age restrictions: bad (doing stuff when you are actually too young is cool in most teenagers eyes)

Age recommendations: good (if there is a good education behind it)

 

I would not go as far as "total freedom" do whatever you like, no age restrictions what-so-ever... but turn them into age-recommendations.

 

Like drinking, smoking, doing (soft/hard) drugs, sex, movies, games, driving, etcetera etcetera... (minimum age for driving would still be handy though lol)

 

Educate the dangers of every thing kids will encounter in the rest of their lives.

Somehow they will get in contact with all of the above (don't we all know people who do or have done hard drugs once or twice or even got addicted to it? Even if we didn't do it ourselves?)

 

When properly educated, kids have at least the knowledge to act on there own, for the bad or for the good. And it starts the moment the can talk and come with questions untill they leave the house to live on there own (even then you are not done as parents... they probably will come back once in a while with new questions).

 

If you add a recommended age in the education, you give the kids the possibility to decide what is good or bad for themselves without breaking the law if they do it earlier. And when they go out and experiment, they can also do it in a safe way.

I didn't start smoking untill I was 20, just to try it out, I didn't like it so I stopped ... Now I am 27 and I know I will not smoke the rest of my life, just because it is not my thing

 

(I did start drinking with age 15, didn't do any other kinds of drugs so far, and started having sex on age 24 ... not because I didn't want to but I didn't have a partner yet )

 

I am blessed with the education I have had, my mom did a good job (parents divorced), and school / talking with friends / my own experiences filled in the rest of the questions. Live and learn.

 

That were my 2 cents.

 

Jerome_NL

Edited June 18, 2009 by GarfieldClowntje

[Soldus]

I think the only law we really need is the costs-by-cause principle, established worldwide.

 

You wanna make money with ego shooters? go ahead...if someone proves you caused a highschool massacre you better have a damn good insurance...but no one will insure such a venture.

 

Same for nuclear power, weapons of mass destruction, weapons in general...heroin, cocaine, crack, you name it...legalize it, but make those fuckers LIABLE for producing/selling it!

 

you wouldn't believe how fast ppl would drop harmful products if they had to pay for the consequences.....

 

[robotbob]

I think the only law we really need is the costs-by-cause principle, established worldwide.

 

You wanna make money with ego shooters? go ahead...if someone proves you caused a highschool massacre you better have a damn good insurance...but no one will insure such a venture.

 

Same for nuclear power, weapons of mass destruction, weapons in general...heroin, cocaine, crack, you name it...legalize it, but make those fuckers LIABLE for producing/selling it!

 

you wouldn't believe how fast ppl would drop harmful products if they had to pay for the consequences.....

 

 

This is a massive exaggeration. Placing combat games inline with those other items.

 

If after reading your post I became angry and killed my mailman, and my lawyer can prove

you put me "over the edge", should you go to jail with me?

[Bahamut_Zero]

I don't think anyone MUST play video games.

Either way, only a fascist government would dictate what its people are and are not allowed to do so long as it does not affect anyone else. And yes, US is a fascist nation as well (can't do drugs, minors can go to jail for havign sex with other minors, you need prescriptions to buy even relatively harmless medicine, and shit like that).

You want underage kids having sex with each other to be legal?

Ok, jail is a bit rough on a kid but if you don't threaten kids, they won't learn. Exactly how hard is it to wait till you're 18 before having sex?

Also consider the consequences of underage sex in a community like the US where people think sharing audio/video media is ok, illegal software is ok, all because of "OMG! freedom". Are you telling us you're ok with 15 year old pregnant teenage girls running around? Underage sex isn't exercising freedom, it's plain ignorance and lack of proper education. Even if it doesn't affect you personally, it still harms your community.

I seriously doubt the US is a fscist country.

 

Have you ever wondered why girls can get pregnant at that age..?

IT´S FUCKING NATURAL, it´s supposed to be like that... now if your are talking about your different culture now thats something else...

 

(Not saying it´s all cool... i´m just trying to make you see things as they are, now the culture that you absorbed and makes your opinion is something different, even today there are places where getting married with an underage girl is perfectly normal as it was with all cultures just a few centuries back...)

 

And threaten..? I would hate to be a son of yours... as u said... EDUCATION, not threats...

Kids will always have sex, it´s up to you they do it safely...

[Aphistolas]

Kay, Bahamut, lets not turn this into a flame war. I highly doubt Hussam intended to make any personally offensive or derogatory statements in his post.

 

Also, I disagree that it's the parents responsibility to ensure kids have safe sex. Sure, it is the parents duty to make sure their child knows all about contraception and the physical/mental/emotional consequences of pursuing a sexual relationship, but it's entirely up to the kid to decide if he acts upon this.

 

Course, If I ever have children I would expect them to listen to me. Even if I believe they should be able to have sex under the consenting age, my opinion doesn't matter against the court's. You're fifteen and you had sex with another fifteen year old? No cell phone; grounded; PS3/Xbox removed; an embarrassingly long and drawn out talk about condoms and such. You will learn to obey the law, whether you respect it or not. It's up to you to do something to change that law if you feel strongly enough about it.

 

Honestly though, although I fully understand the teenage drive to have sex (since I am sixteen), abstinence is a lot more rational when you look at it: if you're motivated by pure hedonism, then sure go out and sex everything that moves up. If you and your partner supposedly love (as, I'm sure, most people in a committed relationship do) each other, then the relationship will endure until age of consent (and I would give my blessing if such a relationship did endure for this long).

Edited June 18, 2009 by Aphistolas

[Entris]

Whats wrong with that? I can't see anything wrong with 2 teenagers having sex with each other as long as they are both in on it, who are we to say that they can't do shit before they turn 18, thats just dumb!

You'll change your mind when you have a younger sister or your own daughter, at least I hope so.

 

If/when i get a doughter i would educate her in alot of things and birthcontrolls and condoms will be a big part of that, i won't tell her she can't have sex or that she can't drink alcohol I would tell her to protect herself If she is going to have sex and tell her what might happen if she doesn't protect herself while having sex and I won't tell her that she can't drink alcohol But i would tell her to be carefull and try not to drink too much and if she gets sick or too drunk call me so i can come and pick her up and take her and her friends if they want to home safe, i won't get mad on her and thats the most important thing she has to know i would just want her to be safe! The same goes for my son when/if i get one!

 

I would probably be the kind of dad that stays up all night to see that my kids are getting home alright...

[kl4Uz]

For politicians it's quite comfortable to ban or outlaw certain types of computer games. There is no real lobby for them, they are not considered to be of cultural or educational value by a majority of the population and they are the perfect scapegoat.

[dawench]

In the 1920's "the establishment" were upset by the flappers...not only did these wanton women show their ankles they showed their knees!!!

 

In the 1950's comic books were considered harmful to young minds and all sorts of censorship had to be used just so that little Timmy can't see a picture of a zombie oozing slime.

 

In the 1950's Rock and Roll was the 'devil's music" and listening to it would cause innocent little white girls to go out and have sex with nefarious teenage boys. (OMG did you see that Elvis Presley on Sullivan last night??? He moved his hips in SUCH a suggestive manner!)

 

In the 1960's the hippies scared the bejezus out of everyone over 30.

 

In the 1970's Dungeons and Dragons was largely seen by the public as a gateway to mental illness. I am not joking. When my parents found out that every Saturday I was a half-elf fighter/magic user, I was given a long lecture on the evils of D&D and they told me how worried they were for my sanity.

 

In the 1980's the world despaired over rap music (which I think totally sucks but thats just a matter of personal taste).

 

The point of all this is simple... every single generation engages in an activity or behaviour that upsets the hell out of their elders. Our parents did things that upset their parents who upset their parents etc etc etc. Each and every time one of these major cultural shifts occur the establishment has a knee-jerk reaction to try and stop this change. This is human nature and won't be changing any time soon. So we will do what we always do when we are told we CAN'T do something... we will do it anyway...just secretly.

 

Censorship and prohibition of any kind always fails.

[PumbaPL]

And i dont think, that 10 year old kids must play games where they can do chain saw massacres with real blood spluttering effects.

 

I don't think anyone MUST play video games.

Either way, only a fascist government would dictate what its people are and are not allowed to do so long as it does not affect anyone else. And yes, US is a fascist nation as well (can't do drugs, minors can go to jail for havign sex with other minors, you need prescriptions to buy even relatively harmless medicine, and shit like that).

 

IMHO parents should know about games that they kids play. Why family keep in mind to check medicine used by kids, movies watched by them, even if kids smoking, but not the games? Then there's comments like "Playing games is sin!", "Games make world bad!", "He killed his family/friend/teacher/etc. because he played this game!". This sort of thinking take us to place, where's nothing to do with it. It's easy to comment something, without ANY knowledge about it. Games can even teach something. Like EL. Most young players from our language channel used to learn grammar and tolerance. That's what I think about it.

 

Greetings,

PumbaPL

[Entropy]

Yes, games are a great teaching tool, I learned English partially from games (maybe about 10% of my vocabulary). But obviously, the parents should monitor their children and see what games they are playing. I am talking mainly about young childrem under 13. Older children should be smart enough to determine what is good and bad for them.

[Erdie]

I am against any overstated regulations. If I forbid my kids to climb on a chair because I am afraid that they hurt themselves they will do it as soon as I am not around and then they will hurt themselves even more. BTW I have 2 kids so I know what about I am speaking.

Regulations by the government are totally unsuitable to compensate parents weakness. I am really worried about what currently happened in Germany.

[rauch]

We have even come so far that american media say our name in one sentence together with china when it comes to control... Just read this Wallstreet Journal article. People here are actually protesting against many changes our politicians are making, the last years have been hard times for us and, looking into the near future, will become even harder. But our politicians are so ignorant, they even chose to ignore the largest petition ever with over 134000 votes against a law establishing an internet censoring infrastructure.

 

Therefor me amongst many others went to demonstrate last saturday, yet again where totally ignored by the established media (which are more or less all state-near).

 

I call ALL germans here reading that to help us in our fight against the reduction of our civil rights, against politicians violating one of the most importants articles in our constition, §5 GG (which says, amongst others: "censoring is NOT taking place.") and against a law abolishing the separation of powers, an essential part of every democracy.

 

Hopefully see you soon at an demonstration near you,

rauch