A few thoughts on the future development of the game

[Entropy]

The EL council idea has been tried to some extent long time ago (2005 I think), and for some reason it didn't work. There were some other talks about ressurecting it, but it didn't work again.

I think it is generally a good idea, but many people feel it would turn into a popularity contest if players vote for them. And if players don't vote for them, I am sure some will say: Yeah, that moron (me) picks only people who always agree with him.

[Shea]

perhaps making it not up for vote, using objective means to pick the council?

 

1) Length of time playing EL.

2) Average number of hours per day.

3) Which skills are high levels.

 

What I mean is, pick people who have played a lot, either for a long time or lots of hours per day, and pick people who have high levels in different skills to get a balance.

 

It might prevent the cry babies before they even get started.

 

Shea

[korrode]

And Korrode WTF dude if you are so intelligent and such a God at designing MMOs why did you have to use EL as the basis of your own QEL game ?

Why did Radu need other people to write client code?

 

FAIL at attempting to put yourself in charge of EL as well OMG

 

*edit* I KNEW this was coming I just KNEW it !! it was just a matter of time before Korrode decided it was best left to him to decide the fate of the entire game its absolutely hilarious

You're just so on the ball Ateh... you've seen through my evil plan of the 20 people all being my alts, damn Ateh is just so smart... look at the way he actually reads posts and waits until he's got all the information before making assumptions!

 

Amazing.

 

 

 

EDIT:

perhaps making it not up for vote, using objective means to pick the council?

 

1) Length of time playing EL.

2) Average number of hours per day.

3) Which skills are high levels.

 

What I mean is, pick people who have played a lot, either for a long time or lots of hours per day, and pick people who have high levels in different skills to get a balance.

But none of those points you made directly indicates a person would be capable of good MMO design...

 

Clicking 'Mix All', or holding home and occasionally clicking, for 12 hours a day, proves nothing.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Korrode

[Shea]

true, but the idea of the council would be more as a guide, not code developers. The people who have experience in EL and have seen things change should be able to provide some input.

 

I suspect the logs can show who is actually active in the game and playing it regardless of what the skill is.

 

The input should not be limited to only those who know how to design a game. I still believe that experienced players can provide some valuable insight on the game from the players point of view.

[Entropy]

There are many requirements to pick a council.

First, they must have good communication skills, and the ability to read, not selectively.

Then they must be totally, 100% objective. They should care about the game as a whole, not about their best interest.

Another requirement is for them to know the game pretty well, and not just their main skills.

And, of course, they have to be well liked by the players, because they are supposed to represent them.

[korrode]

The input should not be limited to only those who know how to design a game. I still believe that experienced players can provide some valuable insight on the game from the players point of view.

Some valuable insight, from some of them... sure... but so many of EL's 'experienced' players are so stuck in a particular mindset, that bases around their current situation in-game, that their views are badly skewed and bias.

 

Another huge problem with much of the EL playerbase is that they focus on the (lack of) difficulty of things in times-gone-by.

 

For example (and i'll lag on fighters here just to keep the "oh korrode just wants fighting easier" crowd quiet):

 

When game changes are proposed that will invoke a balanced and more interesting system, but reduce the exp per hour potential at some levels, we see a veritable uproar about it from some higher level a/d'ers:

 

"BUT ALL <THESE> PEOPLE GOT TO EARN 1mil EXP P/H MULTI'ING AND NOW I WONT BE ABLE TO!!111 UNFAIR UNFAIR!!!!"

 

"BEFORE I COULD GET 350K P/H ON FEROS TS'D BUT NOW I CAN ONLY GET 280K ON FCW!!111 UNFAIRRRRR!!~"

 

... with no consideration to the fact that from a start to end gaming point of view, the system is being

changed in such a fashion that will in years to come, for the potentially thousands of new players that will come to this game, make for much more balanced char progression, and bring at least some variety to the grind.

 

So anyways, my point is, my recommendation based on what i've seen of a large amount of the current EL playerbase, would be to put little value in an opinion purely on the basis that it comes from a player with high levels.

 

EDIT:

I just thought of another great example;

Not so long ago, i heard complaints from a player with quite a few skills very high...

This person cried that the Yeti gc drop being decreased from 350gc max down to 300gc made Yeti "not worth it" and "no better than chims"... Turns out this person is out trying to kill Yeti with a cutty (iirc), in Augmented Leathers, with only 20inst, almost no Vit, and 20 Will... No shit they'd be costing him/her a fortune in HE/SR... they want to fight them in pissant armors but have stats that would suck for them even with pr0 armors... (and the issue wasn't a lack of pickpoints... in fact, it wasn't even a lack of available pick points.)

 

I tried to discuss it with the person, try to help them, and they basically turned around and laughed at me because they were Mr~140 a/d'er and they have so much game experience and there's no way that they could be wrong, and even lesser chance that they could actually learn anything from me... These are not the sort of people who should be making game-changing decisions.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Korrode

[conavar]

pick people who have high levels in different skills to get a balance.

 

Not really a good choice to base it on high levels. unless you can 100% guarantee that its not a bought char... Mr 140's a/d might have only been playing the game for a few months

[bkc56]

There are many requirements to pick a council.

I bet you and a mod or two could come up with a pretty good first-cut at a list of people simply from your experience reading the forums for the last few years.

 

Also, such a council doesn't need to have any voting power (if you will) on the direction the game will take. Simply having a set of qualified advisers to run ideas past would be helpful.

[Marikei]

I like the idea of a council to help and to represent the people as a whole. I think the community should have a say in who those people are. Maybe Entropy decide how many members are needed. Take a week for players to suggest names, narrow down the field by having the community vote in a pole who their choices would be.

Make a thread where players can submit someones name for consideration and why (No one can submit themselves). And go from there.

 

Just a thought.................

[Ateh]

whats so wrong with asking everyone ? whats the guarentee that this handful of ubber geeks will know what is going to make this game work ?

 

was it wrong to ask everyone about the NMT cape breaking ?

was it wrong to ask everyone about the attributes cap ? ( TWICE! )

or what about the latest resource poll ? was it wrong to ask everybody because the vote turned out to be a NO vote ?

 

you know what that exact same thing is happening with the Lisbon Treaty at the moment in Europe, every state gets to vote if they want the treaty and so far Ireland have said NO ! Because they need every member state to agree , Ireland saying NO has fucked the whole thing up

 

So what do they do ? They make Ireland vote again , and if they say NO ! they will make them vote again and again until they say YES ! which as you can imagine is just utter bullshit on a monumental scale, but anyway ...........

 

next time anyone wants to make a poll wait until the discussion has reached flaming , shut the topic and then open the poll so everyone has had a chance to understand wtf is being suggested

 

also , instead of allowing a topic to get flooded with opinions , why not allow only LEGITIMATE questions regarding the suggestion ???? That way , instead of people having to sift through 400 opinionated replys to get any information, each reply will be an answer to a question related to the suggestion.

[bkc56]

whats so wrong with asking everyone ?

Because that never happens.

 

Significant decisions about the game are made based on the feedback from players who just happen to be on and listening to @6 when Radu asks a question.

 

Polls (sometimes poorly worded) are placed in the forums to gather input, but only from players who read the forums and feel that voting/participating has value.

 

The current system does not ask "everyone" nor does it make any attempt to get a well-rounded representative sampling of the player-base.

 

No one ever said (or implied) that Entropy would use "ubber geeks" to decide things (such wild generalizations do not help support your position). But I'm sure a set of respected and knowledgeable active players could be identified who could provide more reliable feedback and advice than the current methods provide.

 

And when a wider range of input is desired (like from the self-selected set of forum readers) this group could put together a well written post and poll to gather it.

[Entropy]

Polls (sometimes poorly worded) are placed in the forums to gather input, but only from players who read the forums and feel that voting/participating has value.

 

I think most players that care about the issue were able to vote, the poll was open for a few days. Yes, not everyone has a forum account, but the fact is, those who do represent a pretty homogeneous sample of all the players in the game. In my experienced based on similar polls we had in the past, once ~50 people vote, the results will not be very different than when 400 players vote.

[bkc56]

In my experienced based on similar polls we had in the past, once ~50 people vote, the results will not be very different than when 400 players vote.

My statistics is really rusty; I have no idea what sample size of the EL player-base would be statistically significant and to what error tolerance. But I can accept that players without a forum account probably represent the more casual EL players. And while not necessarily accurate, I can believe that a sample of 50-100 could well give a good idea as to what the total population might vote.

 

That said, I would still tend to believe a well chosen set of "consultants" could provide better feedback with less pain-and-suffering for changes/features under consideration. Once the ideas have been refined some, forum posts/polls could provide the opportunity for the larger player-base to give their feedback.

 

But as 50 people may show you how a poll will turn out, 20 consultants will provide most of the useful feedback and opinions that a 10 page forum thread will. And with less flaming.

[majestyk]

I think most players that care about the issue were able to vote, the poll was open for a few days. Yes, not everyone has a forum account, but the fact is, those who do represent a pretty homogeneous sample of all the players in the game. In my experienced based on similar polls we had in the past, once ~50 people vote, the results will not be very different than when 400 players vote.

There were a couple polls in the recent past where Europeans could not participate due to the time the poll was started and the short duration of the poll. This time, the poll was open for almost two days, which is a great improvement. Even if the vote of 50 players is a good sample, it feels good to know you're not left out. I was on the brink of thanking you in the poll thread, but I didn't dare to be off-topic. Now that you mention it I feel a bit safer, so thank you for letting me participate in the last poll

[Marikei]

whats so wrong with asking everyone ? whats the guarentee that this handful of ubber geeks will know what is going to make this game work ?

 

Why? Because someone always has to come in with a flame. If Player A posts an opinon and Player B comes back disagreeing with him, Player C jumps in flaming player B claiming he is only pissed cause Player A attacked him blah blah blah.

Unfortunately in a room of 20 people, only a handful are very good at debating, or expressing themselves in text format. Many GREAT Ideas get buried under flames and jabs. Very rarely do you see someone come up with an opinon backed up with a good arguement as to why they have this opinon.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Marikei

[Marcvs]

Councils (parliaments) in rl is needed 'cause people cannot take care of the same laws they have to respect. The problems of parliaments is, in fact, that very often the council members makes laws for their personal purposes (with less or more hidden intent). For that reason this game goes well while is only Ent to take decisions: he doesn't play directly at the game, so their acts will not influence his skills and/or way of gaming. If we will have a council, must be of people who don't play directly. But the point is: who will have the power to nominate the council members? if we give the election power to the crew, this game will become a persistent political campaign ("I will promise to do this!" "If you vote for me I will force ent to give you the rights to have a manu strike!") in wich ent will become a code-machine to write what the council likes this day (will last very short time...). On the other hand, if only ent can choose/fire the council members, we will have a ghost medieval state with no real power (that will last very short time...).

 

We at least can create a comitate of players (not elected, just people who wants to cooperate to find the ways to make this game better - indeed I like this game as it is now...for example ) who have only a couple of spokesmen who will post the suggestions of the comitate, surely planned with ent. A first wave of members of the comitate can be choosen by ent with the help of the mods, than to enter the comitate you have to know at least three other members, who have to invite you. of course the suggestions of the comitate will not be in any case final decisions. i think that in this way the comitate can post real argumentated suggestions, full of details pre-planned by the members in their discussions. Suggestions that create disputes between the members theirselves, probably will not work in the game, and will not appear on the official forum at all. The comitate can take place in a reserved area of this forum.

[Ateh]

I dont understand what the up roar is surrounding this recent poll ?

 

The No votes won so lets take away everyones chance to debate and vote ? huh ?

 

I would personally rather rely upon a thread where anyone with a genuine question regarding the subject, was able to pose that question and get an answer, therefore giving insight into the proposal for others to read and review instead of

 

A) surfing through 200 opinions to find any decent replys regarding the suggestion

 

B ) take away alltogether everybodys chance to have a say

 

Its a matter of communication, and your actually asking to have that chance of communication with the developer taken away from you ?

 

*edit* argh !

Edited May 7, 2009 by Ateh

[Marikei]

Its a matter of communication, and your actually asking to have that chance of communication with the developer taken away from you ?

 

not at all, I am sure in 20 people (especially if we the community can pick who they are) there is someone that shares my concerns. It would be up to them to express them to Ent. Ent has the LAST WORD as he does now as to "if and when" a change will be made. I am not giving control of the game to a council, Just a handful of people to collect information from all of us and present it to Ent. Do you really think the man sifts through each and every post? If he is like most of us, once we get to the flames we close it. Therefore I am sure missing some great ideas.

 

The problems of parliaments is, in fact, that very often the council members makes laws for their personal purposes (with less or more hidden intent). For that reason this game goes well while is only Ent to take decisions

 

And it STAYS his decission. the man is smart I have faith he would see through a scheme for a council member to OVERLY benift by one of his proposals

[The_Piper]

Council..

 

Parliament..

 

Whats next? The Players Republic of Eternal Lands?

 

I think, the only problem is, that most polls or even threads end up with flaming, no matter what the topic is.

 

If we could solve that problem and force ppl to stay on topic, everything would be fine and radu might get some opinions from forum posts.

 

Piper

[robotbob]

I have a better idea; I'll give a list of ~20 names and from now on only those people will discuss and vote on new game changes.

 

Most people around here don't even have the foresight to see what's best for themselves let alone the game as a whole.

 

(EDIT: and by "best for the game as a whole" i mean inducing the most fun (i.e. people smiling, having 'yay' feelings... and i do mean long term, not just when change is made) and highest retention rate of new players)

 

Well other games use this sort of system:

 

Player Advocates: Candidates are elected by majority vote and final selection is made by

the staff\developers of the game. Players submit ideas to their respective advocate and that

person petitions the developers for particular changes.

 

Makes things easier, the developers only interact with a handful of players, submitting proposal-like

ideas in a sane and concise manner (required for the position). If player want to bitch, they bitch to the advocate.

Players are never allowed a debate of any sort with the game actual developers, only with the elected advocate.

 

The advocate can be voted out by players, or fired by developers at any moment.

 

(also the Radu does whatever he wants to his game and we play or not works too.

It is his project, we have chosen to play, Can you all imagine how frustrated you would get if

anything you wanted to do to -your- project had to pass a damn committee?)

 

But I understand about keeping a client\user base happy, and perhaps player advocates is a nice middle ground.

(It worked nicely in one game, currently coming to an end after 6 yrs (commercial game) )

[Learner]

People forget that Entropy is a Capitalist, so pushing for any sort of Democratic process is unlikely to work unless the voting is done with money.

 

Pay per vote, the suggested feasture that raises the most money get implemented, then start another voting cycle, including the option to remove recent features.

[Entropy]

There were a couple polls in the recent past where Europeans could not participate due to the time the poll was started and the short duration of the poll. This time, the poll was open for almost two days, which is a great improvement. Even if the vote of 50 players is a good sample, it feels good to know you're not left out. I was on the brink of thanking you in the poll thread, but I didn't dare to be off-topic. Now that you mention it I feel a bit safer, so thank you for letting me participate in the last poll

 

Well, it's not like the Europeans and the Americans have different preferences about stuff.

[Peeves]

People forget that Entropy is a Capitalist, so pushing for any sort of Democratic process is unlikely to work unless the voting is done with money.

 

Pay per vote, the suggested feasture that raises the most money get implemented, then start another voting cycle, including the option to remove recent features.

"Being the communist I am, I came up with a clever way to even up the social status of the people a bit. " Taken from Here

 

Make up your mind Radu...

 

Edit: Suppose I'd better keep on topic.

 

Does it really matter who decides on the development? I'm sure most of us will continue playing no matter what. Being given the choice by the devs is a privilege that I'd rather keep though.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Peeves

[Krystal V]

:x you might get a forumz ban tsk tsk

 

and I see a CelticLady reading

Edited May 8, 2009 by Kharn

[Entropy]

"Being the communist I am, I came up with a clever way to even up the social status of the people a bit. " Taken from Here

 

Make up your mind Radu...

 

Edit: Suppose I'd better keep on topic.

 

Does it really matter who decides on the development? I'm sure most of us will continue playing no matter what. Being given the choice by the devs is a privilege that I'd rather keep though.

 

That was almost 5 years ago

"If you are not a socialist by the time you are 25, you have no heart. If you are still a socialist by the time you are 35, you have no head"