Archery

[forever]

Just thinking maybe we could find a way to have archery get some sort of gc atleast

 

Reason I say this is that every skill gives profit with the exception of archery

 

We spend gc and gc and gc and don't get very much because it takes a good 50gc per kill

 

where as a person killing monsters gets constant gc + bones and other skills get levels + gc

 

Idk if it's possible to make it so that archery gives soem sort of gc at all

 

Just an idea... discussable

[bkc56]

Reason I say this is that every skill gives profit with the exception of archery

Wow, this is one of the more amusing things I've read in a while now. Actually, most skills are a net-loss (especially when you factor in the books and the cost getting your levels high enough to make things that will sell). Harvesting and Alchemy are the only skill that are really profitable from the start. Some skills like Tailoring (and it would appear Archery/Ranging) are specifically designed to be money-sinks.

 

If Entropy had wanted Archery to be profitable, he wouldn't have made the training arrows cost 10gc each, and only available from an NPC. (yes, in theory the bows and PK arrows are suppose to be mixable (engineering and crafting respectably), but we'll see if that actually happens).

 

Archery is kind of like Tailoring in that it's not for poor players. They are both harder and more advanced skills requiring a good supply of gc to do them. I'm actually very surprised there aren't a set of 10K or 20K books required to learn how to use them (no, that's NOT a suggestion!).

[Troger]

as bkc told.

Magic skill > no profit at all

Manufacture > net lost untill you can make certain items...

Crafting > I would say is lost, but there are things that are profitable

Engineering > at the begining you need tones of money to start

Tailoring> just like engineering

Fighting skilles(a/d) > The drops from animals dont cover the price of essences and srs and broken items used in combat

Summoning > loss untill you can make summoning stones

I was talking only about the gc part. But you have to see the xp part too, and as you advance in a skill you have items that give more xp, and you can make more and more...You became stronger.

 

I would think on something different, like to have 1 or 2% chance that the arrow shoot on the target to appear in the targets db.

[Cycloonx]

When arrows are craftable they might be cheaper too. And as an archer you don't need to heal, don't need to wear armor, and no chance on dieing (in case you are a good archer ofcourse ).

[forever]

It was only a suggestion, and as previously stated...

 

as you level you are actually able to make more gc I've fiddled with manu. Once you can make steel armor, if you make all your own stuff, it becomes quite profitable

[masterpiter]

I hope archery stays highly unprofitable so ppl wont play as an archer for making money

[Tempest]

as bkc told.

Magic skill > no profit at all

Manufacture > net lost untill you can make certain items...

Crafting > I would say is lost, but there are things that are profitable

Engineering > at the begining you need tones of money to start

Tailoring> just like engineering

Fighting skilles(a/d) > The drops from animals dont cover the price of essences and srs and broken items used in combat

Summoning > loss untill you can make summoning stones

I was talking only about the gc part. But you have to see the xp part too, and as you advance in a skill you have items that give more xp, and you can make more and more...You became stronger.

 

I would think on something different, like to have 1 or 2% chance that the arrow shoot on the target to appear in the targets db.

Magic Skill -> Good profit, if u know how to use it.

Manufacture -> right. but even certain items (i think u mean high lvl stuff) don't give any profit.

Summoning -> loss till lvl 62, else you fail too much stones. and till lvl 62, you surely have to invest more than a million gc.

Tailoring -> totally wrong, people make robes for like 5k ingredents and they sell for 25k or so, so theres a HUGE profit.

(therefor the books are expensiv, since you needs lots of them and not everyone wants to buy clothes + they don't break. so profit is limited.)

 

 

to piter: look at all skills, theres is no way of making money with them anymore, cant there be at least 1 skill that gives "some" profit? i mean i can understand the "omg too much gc the economy is ruined~1!" thing but no reason to cut off all gc sources :/ (not that i want archery to be profitable, but just as a note.)

Edited April 9, 2008 by Tempest

[Enly]

Tailoring -> totally wrong, people make robes for like 5k ingredents and they sell for 25k or so, so theres a HUGE profit.

(therefor the books are expensiv, since you needs lots of them and not everyone wants to buy clothes + they don't break. so profit is limited.)

Haha, thats a good laugh.

 

Actually tailoring profit is not just limited, its virtually nonexistent, the top tailors have poured millions of gold coins into reaching the levels they have to make items. And even then, making a robe or skirt for most of them requires several critical failures, ingredients may be a small price compared to the price of the actual item. But the rest of the money is to compensate for critical failures, and to pay the person who has poured so many gold coins into achieving the levels necessary to make clothes.

 

Tailoring is not a profitable skill, forget whatever you might assume from the prices.

 

And I agree with bkc, most skills aren't really very profitable. I'm sure archery will be a little bit easier when bows and arrows and such are mixable, but really its just like the rest of the skills

Edited April 9, 2008 by Enly

[anima]

snip...

to piter: look at all skills, theres is no way of making money with them anymore, cant there be at least 1 skill that gives "some" profit? i mean i can understand the "omg too much gc the economy is ruined~1!" thing but no reason to cut off all gc sources :/ (not that i want archery to be profitable, but just as a note.)

 

there is, its harvesting, if every skill made a loss everyone would be out of gc lol

 

profit is decided by prices (selling price-(ingreds+fails)) and prices are decided by people, the only way to make profit is form a cartel of everyone who has the levels to make a certain item and charge over the odds for it, this is sort of happening in black dragon scales since few people can kill them but that does take a lot longer than clicking 'mix' so maybe they don't make any supernormal* profit at all.

 

*net profit after all costs have been paid including the oppurtunity cost, i.e. the amount someone could have made harvesting in the same time must also be deducted as a cost.

Edited April 9, 2008 by anima

[Mango]

Every new thing nowadays, has to be a money sink it seems .

[scarr]

i think archery should be same profit level as fighters imo ..like u can choose to be a archer or a fighter

why should archery be harder?

[Wizzy]

I think we all need to give it a little time, There are other arrows then trainning arrows, and with a decent bow and rang level, maybe shooting some mobs will lead to a little profit.

[Tempest]

the cheapest arrows are 10gc each, and u cant make any profit.. how do u wanna make gc on yetis/acw/giants/dragons if u use 200gc or 100gc arrows pls?

[LilBear]

Here is a real suggestion for archery that's going to make me unpopular with the archers, but I don't care. I am wondering why shooting an arrow doesn't COST you anything. No hp deducted, no mana, no food. Doesn't it take energy to shoot arrows? From what I hear, irl it's quite difficult and requires muscles. So, my suggestion would be to make each arrow shoot COST something, like, 1 food point for the training arrows, more for the other arrows. After all, everything else in the game costs something (hp, food, mana) too, even harvesting (esp. the higher level items).

 

lilcnoot

[Cycloonx]

Here is a real suggestion for archery that's going to make me unpopular with the archers, but I don't care. I am wondering why shooting an arrow doesn't COST you anything. No hp deducted, no mana, no food. Doesn't it take energy to shoot arrows? From what I hear, irl it's quite difficult and requires muscles. So, my suggestion would be to make each arrow shoot COST something, like, 1 food point for the training arrows, more for the other arrows. After all, everything else in the game costs something (hp, food, mana) too, even harvesting (esp. the higher level items).

 

lilcnoot

 

Well, every shot costs you 10gc Hitting something with your sword doesn't cost you anything either.

[Desertus]

Here is a real suggestion for archery that's going to make me unpopular with the archers, but I don't care. I am wondering why shooting an arrow doesn't COST you anything. No hp deducted, no mana, no food. Doesn't it take energy to shoot arrows? From what I hear, irl it's quite difficult and requires muscles. So, my suggestion would be to make each arrow shoot COST something, like, 1 food point for the training arrows, more for the other arrows. After all, everything else in the game costs something (hp, food, mana) too, even harvesting (esp. the higher level items).

 

lilcnoot

so arrows are free?

[Andhaka]

Here is a real suggestion for archery that's going to make me unpopular with the archers, but I don't care. I am wondering why shooting an arrow doesn't COST you anything. No hp deducted, no mana, no food. Doesn't it take energy to shoot arrows? From what I hear, irl it's quite difficult and requires muscles. So, my suggestion would be to make each arrow shoot COST something, like, 1 food point for the training arrows, more for the other arrows. After all, everything else in the game costs something (hp, food, mana) too, even harvesting (esp. the higher level items).

 

lilcnoot

 

And wielding a sword is easy and doesn't require muscles?

[Tempest]

EDITED out. people pointed it out enough

Edited April 10, 2008 by Tempest

[kl4Uz]

Archery will be a highly unprofitable skill. By the time you are able to kill higher level monsters with a decent (i.e. small) amount of arrows, meaning the costs for the arrows is lower than the gain from the drops, you will have spent hundreds of thousands of gc into the skill.

 

However, for the time being, I think that is totally okay. Since it's a new skill, people will do it whether or not it's profitable. It's just a fun new thing to, there is the race to be the best in this new thing, etc. So I wouldn't worry about this, right now.

 

The questions is: Will ist ever be a _usefull_ skill? I'm sure it will always stay a fun thing to do, however not as fun as in the beginning. However I doubt it will ever be a very usefull skill. You can't use it for killing monsters for drops, it's just highly unprofitable. And we will see whether it will become important in pk. My fear is that in many cases archers will be the ones who do a lot of the killing work and other close combat fighters will receive the drops. We've seen it in the bethel invasion. There were many people who just lured for the archers to kill the monsters, then quickly got the drops.

 

I do not suggest making the arrows cheaper (though it would be very nice for me ). My feeling is that maybe we could come up with other ways of making the skill more "usefull". Maybe a party mode which would equally distribute drops to all the party members or similar things could be implemented. Such mechanisms would both serve the purpose of being a money sink (since arrows would still be expensive) and provide the archers some sort of reward.

[LilBear]

I knew I'd get some heat, but look people, just because the arrow costs you money that doesn't mean it shouldn't also take up hp or food points. After all, wielding a sword might not cost you hp, but you lose them anyway cause the creature hits you back. In archery they don't, unless you get too close. And there are plenty of other examples of where you have to buy things, like leather for leather helmets, or vials for potions (now makeable, I know, I know, but the vial still disappears when you use the potion). It doesn't matter that the arrow costs money. All skills involve items, and items have value. The point I was making was not about the value of this item, but about the cost of using the item. And that cost is currently zero in archery -- and my suggestion was to change that. You may not like the suggestion, but pointing to the value of the item doesn't get you anywhere with a tailor, who has to spend 70 gc to make an item (white fabric) that gives the experience of a fire essence, but costs 14 (I think) food points. Trust me, I *know* about item value. It's cost of usage that I'm talking about.

 

lilcnoot

[scarr]

be able to pick up your arrows that miss !

[Sayre]

I knew I'd get some heat, but look people, just because the arrow costs you money that doesn't mean it shouldn't also take up hp or food points. After all, wielding a sword might not cost you hp, but you lose them anyway cause the creature hits you back. In archery they don't, unless you get too close. And there are plenty of other examples of where you have to buy things, like leather for leather helmets, or vials for potions (now makeable, I know, I know, but the vial still disappears when you use the potion). It doesn't matter that the arrow costs money. All skills involve items, and items have value. The point I was making was not about the value of this item, but about the cost of using the item. And that cost is currently zero in archery -- and my suggestion was to change that. You may not like the suggestion, but pointing to the value of the item doesn't get you anywhere with a tailor, who has to spend 70 gc to make an item (white fabric) that gives the experience of a fire essence, but costs 14 (I think) food points. Trust me, I *know* about item value. It's cost of usage that I'm talking about.

 

lilcnoot

Noone forced you to be a tailoring factory for riva so please dont cry about how hard it is please.

 

Anyway, on topic. I can hit plenty of critters that don't hit me back. I don't expend anything to do so. When I fail a summon, I don't lose any health or mana. Every time I fire and for the most part miss a target I lose at LEAST 10gc. I also had a leopard break my elven bow on its head. Archery costs already, trust me.

 

What is the cost of wearing a robe? Hasn't cost me a damn thing so far, and I have been wearing them longer than most.

 

S.

[Hex]

Noone forced you to be a tailoring factory for riva so please dont cry about how hard it is please.

 

She didn't cry. Bad manners Spleen. She tried to express an opinion on something about the game's logic. I fail to see your rebuttal contributing to a logical discussion.

[Sayre]

Noone forced you to be a tailoring factory for riva so please dont cry about how hard it is please.

 

She didn't cry. Bad manners Spleen. She tried to express an opinion on something about the game's logic. I fail to see your rebuttal contributing to a logical discussion.

 

And I posted an opinion pertaining to the motivation of her opinion. Afterwards I continued the rebuttal.

 

It is possible I am not understanding the nature of where the flaw is. It is not for lack of trying.

 

Skills are not meant to be identical in both difficulty or logistics. I can speak for summoning in that, up until the point where you can make summoning stones, there is nothing but loss. Archery cost significant amounts of gc, and it is not without risk either. Given that inequity among skills is common and accepted, where does the unfairness lie?

 

S.

[Hex]

Thank you for explaining yourself better SF. Now I can respond. Here's my response. I agree with you. Here are my reasons for disagreeing with lil's idea:

 

Firstly, The truth is, many skills are lopsided because this is an artificial economy with infinite resources. That lopsidedness is intentionally built into the game because 4M gc enter the game every day. (Blue Lupines, anyone? 10k Fluffies, anyone?) If everyone wants to make a profit in every skill, be prepared for insane inflation, and then we can have gc amounts that exceed the bit capacity of the server's variables.

 

Secondly, food is used for mixing skills, but ranging doesn't fit that profile. It is true that drawing a bow 10k times takes a lot of energy (I own a recurve and a compound in rl), but that wouldn't be consistent with swinging a weapon not costing food. If fighting doesn't cost food, drawing a bow shouldn't either.

 

Thirdly, the matter of risk is also moot, since there is plenty of risk with archery. Lag causes you to fire up to 1 second (generally) after you've clicked, which means in roughly 25% of instances, the creature may have moved within retaliation distance by the time you've fired. (I lost an elven and a recurve so far in this manner).

 

I'm glad the discussion is refocusing on the issue, and not flaming.