"Market" value of EFE?

[Shujral]

Here is the sad truth about things. Entropy wanted iron plate and other EFE based items to be rare. They ended up not being rare, but more expensive instead. He will probably never manage to reduce the number of items that he wanted to be rare, but we will get to pay like crazy for them.

 

They could have a high break rate, but no one would like that, not to mention no one would buy them...

[Lexi]

They could have a high break rate, but no one would like that, not to mention no one would buy them...

 

Well, the rate of the break wouldn't have to be EXTREMELY high.

 

But really, this is not giving the horders a reason to stop hording them. If anything, it's giving them a reason TO horde them.

 

1. They Know That The Rate Will Not Be Lifted.

2. People Will Need Them, It's Not Just For One Thing, EFEs Are Used In A Lot Of Items.

3. It Will Take a While For The EFE Count To Go Back Down To 10k. Thus, Giving More Time For The Prices To Raise.

 

Now I ask you this... If you're a horder, and you were told the rate wouldn't be lifted until the count is under 10k, what would you do? You wouldn't sell now... because you're holding a good chunk of them. You know it will take a while for the count to go down, in this time, the prices will raise.

 

Why sell right now... when you can sell a few months from now and make an easy 2k offer EACH essence?

 

I am not a horder, but I have a couple that I wont rid of right now, just because I have read this topic.

[frogimus]

I'm surprised noone (in this thread) has suggested NPC sales. That would give a price baseline (variation occurs through antisocial behavior) and also provides another gc drain to the game.

[trollson]

I'm surprised noone (in this thread) has suggested NPC sales.

If you mean an NPC selling EFEs, that would not be a good idea.

• NPCs put upper limits on the price of goods they sell, and lower limits on those they buy.
  
• NPCs represent unlimited supply and demand for goods they trade in.
  

An NPC selling EFEs means that there is an unlimited supply on tap; terrible since exotic items are the one scarce resource in the game (unlike money).

• If the price they charge is high it does not affect the market, except more EFEs are introduced into the game (competition may even reduce the value of the EFE, despite people paying the premium to get them from the NPC on demand).
  
• If the price is too low, then an awful lot of EFEs are introduced into the game.
  

On the other hand, and NPC offering to buy EFEs at a greater than market rate, but only for a limited time, may encourage horders to off-load their stocks. Especially if the EFE rate will return to 'normal' after the NPCs offer expires.

[Entropy]

The hoarders will be in for a nasty suprise when the EFE rate goes up.

Since 4 months ago, we got about 1K off the game. People don't buy many EFEs from the shop because they are not a good way to make money (rotstos are better for this purpose).

When the rate was 2 in 10K, their price was around 4Kgc. And by the way things are going, we'll be back to that rate by the end of the summer (don't quote me on this, it's just an estimate).

[Lexi]

I don't know what the current rate is, but 2/10,000 seems a LOT better than what I am getting

 

I have made over 50k and I have gotten 2 (or 3...can't remmeber)... I may just have bad luck at them. By my current counter (from about 2 months ago maybe...) I have made 21k Fes, and only made 1 EFE, I even mixed a few thousand on a day or 2 where the rarity of making one is decreased (I forget the name of it, dangit..).

 

And if I wanna make gc by paying dollars, I would just buy EFE from the shop, if I bought the Rostos, I would like never sell them, because I can use them for myself , I can't use the EFE for much anything yet, my levels are not great for them.

 

It's just too bad people arn't like myself.

[nathanstenzel]

Heh. One thing would be sure to fix the issue.....warn about bandits coming through the lands looking for EFE and then have a 10% chance a day of the EFE being stolen until there are not too many of them anymore.

 

That or provide alternate recipes for the armor to decrease the value of EFE. If the EFE are going to lose value, they will try to get rid of them before the value drops too much.

[Cycloonx]

Heh. One thing would be sure to fix the issue.....warn about bandits coming through the lands looking for EFE and then have a 10% chance a day of the EFE being stolen until there are not too many of them anymore.

 

Crappy idea, the only persons you punish with that are the manuers who need stock up with EFE to produce armors when someone asks for it.

[Matty27]

<snip>

Why hasn't iron plate market value increased in response to EFE prices? Possibly it has hit the right price for the product; increase it and the potential customers are more attracted to saving up for steel, or using the cheaper augmented gear instead.

<snip>

 

<personal-recollection>

Player was asking in local if anyone was selling an iron set. I responded that he could have mine for the cost of a replacement. He told me that they were not worth that much... I responded that if he wanted a set now, he would have to supply the 4 EFE and asked if he was willing to do that. I didn't get any reply to that question, and I didn't really expect to get one.

</personal-recollection>

 

People are used to the current price of iron armour and are not willing to take into account the value of replacement ingredients. This isn't the right price for these things, it is only what players are currently willing to pay. They saw the prices before Entropy reduced the chances of getting EFE and have an ostrich syndrome about the current prices.

 

Related to this is the cost of a serp, in market I keep seeing 5k, yet these take an EFE and a serp stone as well as other (non-harvestable) items. At current values, just these 2 ingredients take the cost of making a serp to 7kgc. Again, this 5k isn't the right price for the finished item, just what players saw the prices used to be and sticking their heads in the sand.

 

What is needed is for players to look at the ingredients list for a finished item and actually consider if the price they think an item is worth is correct. Unfortunately, I suspect that there will be many who will still refuse to use their brains logically. (No, this is not flame bait)

 

Until the above is resolved, and this has to be by players actually thinking about the game and not Entropy adjusting the economy, manufacturers will not make the iron sets and serp swords (and probably other undervalued items too) and so the overall amount of EFE in players storage will not reduce very quickly.

 

It is understandable that players are hoarding their EFE for when either the price of finished items goes up, or they have enough ingredients (e.g. hydro bars) to be able to ask high manufaturers to mix stuff (e.g. steel or titanium armours) for them.

[frogimus]

Matty27 has it pretty close. I didn't bother getting a serpent sword until i had accidentally found/made the EFE and Serp Stone. Then I traded ing's for finished product from a friend capable of making it without a high fail chance. He in turn went and got blessed by Manu Deity for extra insurance against failure.

 

Iron armor? i had a full set and now the greaves and cuisses are both degraded. IMO, they're not even worth the 1300gc to attempt repair in comparison to easily replaced aug leather.

[nigol]

Crappy idea, the only persons you punish with that are the manuers who need stock up with EFE to produce armors when someone asks for it.

 

Amen

[Darc0]

I must have some insane luck, I've tended to make 1 EFE every 3k FE, and have for around 30k FEs now... I save them all for when I feel like mixing something with them, made 2 alembics and 1 vial mold with my stash so far...also crit failed on a vial mold...

 

I also bought them for a while, so have 10 in storage, where they'll be until I need to mix something with them.

[ttlanhil]

Ostrich syndrome sounds good, but it's not the whole story... Why else would great sword prices be reasonably stable at 21-22k? Sure, the cost of a wolf bar has gone up with the cost of serp stones, but it hasn't been profitable for a long, long time.

The problem is also with the people selling things.

First up, there isn't just the one entry point for these items into the economy.

Anything that's a monster drop (lets point the finger at ti long) is going to suffer badly from that. But anything that a PKer gets for less than the cost of killing someone is worth, to them, selling for a lower-than-cost price just to get the cash now. And of course, stuff that was made earlier when it was cheap is going to turn a profit now (some people are hoarders. Many aren't, as I'll get to, but some are, and they can afford to sell for less than the current cost price).

Next up, people are looking for rares. This is exclusive to the steel/tit plates, great swords, and perhaps damage rings (the other things that come to mind, like FE, have a high enough demand for the base product that rare versions aren't the main motivator, they're a bonus). And heck, why not? If you lose about 3kgc per great sword, and after a few dozen you make one worth 200k, you're well in front.

Then, there's experience. That's not just that you get experience (which is worth something, and can be used to self-justify asking less than it cost you to make something), it's also that you made something different from the leather helms (or whatever) that you normally grind on to get levels.

People are impatient. There's valid reason to sell now for a little less than you'd get in the future, if that extra money now can be used to earn more money (that's sound economics), but people go well beyond the sound economic level in EL. They want it now. Sometimes this does make sense, if you need a lot of cash now for a big investment, though usually not.

And now we come back to the ostrich. People have seen other people sell for less (or worse still, someone told them someone else sold for a low price, and they naturally not only believe this person, they assume this other price is a valid one, and not a once-off from someone who was clearing stuff out) in the recent past, and think they should be able to get a better or at least the same deal, whether it makes sense or not.

There are probably a number of other factors as well, but those are the ones I can point to now.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think we can change this... Why? Because there's a point to trying to get rares, there isn't ever likely to be enough of a market on things like great swords that supply has issues (and if there is, it'll probably be because of the lack of serp stones, EFE, etc, which just increases the cost price and hoarders keep the prices up).

And because people in EL don't trade as if it really mattered and their livelyhood depended on it. Because it really doesn't. Unlike in the real world, if you go broke, you don't really lose that much... You just have less things which you can use to impress people and to gain more stuff (and as we all know, you can make cash as a newbie with nothing... A higher level player with no items can do it faster). It's "just a game", so people won't use realistic, logical planning and thought. And many players are probably young enough that they haven't done much economics beyond, occasionally, high school textbooks (I'm looking more at team leader to lower management level, or college/university economics). Not that they always should, of course, it is a game, and too much analysis isn't going to make it fun. But there are areas where an understanding of real world economics could help EL's market work better.

Edited July 16, 2007 by ttlanhil

[Looter]

Recycling day takes alot of efe and enrichment stones out of the game, or at least it does within my guild, i know they are random but its awhile since there has been one during the times i play. Maybe a recycling weekend is in order this would surely clear alot out.

[nicky]

All i can say on this topic, is THANK GOODNESS for the recently established tradition of the no drop day invasions!

 

I think many things will change with all of the broken gear coming out of that day, i broke 3 efe's worth of gear along on that day alone!

 

When gear starts breaking, and fighters start demanding gear, the manuer's will start busting out thier stash's of efe's to provide the equipment we need (at top prices of course!). It's a good thing!

[Stone]

you asked for it geritt....

 

Hoarders. There are some people that hold onto things that they may someday be able to use themselves. Not too much of a problem unless they don't ever use them or sell them and they just sit there. That leaves them in the game, but they aren't being used at all. I try and stock about 40 efe's at all times, but I use them frequently and have even run out several times when I was selling armor faster than I could replenish stocks.

I'm one of them - never or rare sell enriched essences or stones.

As far as I remember have I 24 EFEs, 38 enrichment stones, 18 binding stones, 180 serp stones and 32 rosts in my storage.

And I don't want to sell.

Reasons :

Prices are usually going up, which mean I get richer and richer. Serp stones used to be almost worthless sell for 2k ? now. If I had sold cheap and bought later would I loose gc. And with new items in game will prices go up.

 

I might need them later. I don't manu a lot but as the market channel is now, is it a pain to buy here.

And very many bots to pm for inv. Sometimes is it impossible to find what I look for.

 

So I keep the rare items in my storage, sell only what I can make.

I buy if I find cheap EFEs and rosts.

Why have a lots of gc in storage if you can't buy what you need ?

 

And, yes I think it's a problem.

 

I dont get that, you spent a lot of time reaching the levels you have...

Now you say you hoard the items to sell them to become rich?!

Your effort in getting those levels is...what? Why dont you make something out of the items and start selling it for a better price than the current is (looking at armor e.g)? You are scared of not getting enough money out of it?

Well wait, like you wait with selling the rare essences/stones...

 

Imo those essences should degrade while rotting in storage, like armors do while

using them! (dont take that last sentence too serious, or...?)

[Walt-Her]

I think you should read it like "when i need items which requires enriched essy's or sertain stones"

 

At least i do. i don't e.g. tit. shields to sell. you know why ? the ings alone cost way over 27kgc and if you want to sell one ppl. get mad on you when you ask that much. 24kgc max is what most wanna pay.

 

So, i keep my sparkly's and stones and use them only for stuff i need. the rest stays in storage and not to sell them one day

[Stone]

"24k is what most wanna pay" ? Most want to pay a branch and a fruit for a shield...of course they want!

Just keep your "sparkly's and stones"......anyway, looks like minority is interested in a change, so nvm!

 

Edit: and with change i dont mean only the price, but how to deal with those "rare" items

Edited November 20, 2007 by Stone

[masterpiter]

As a fighter i will explain a little about the tit shield, so ppl who doesnt specialize in fighting also know what is this item used for.

current market price: about 26k

stats: +1 defense and +2 accuracy compared to steel shield which is 400gc each.

degradable

Usage:

-pking( which is dead except no drop days),

-killing monsters higher than ur lvls for fun(ppl do that rarely)

-killing monsters in hulda map for gc (often but only 1 player at a time)

-killing/training yetis( only 3 ppl at the same time can do that, and many of them wear steel shields anyways, difference is very small, especially if some1 kills them for gc using strong sword)

-killing giants( ppl do that very rare, giants drop very bad compared to their strenght, warlocks cape stats r low/useless so its price is low)

-killing dragons- few ppl ingame doing that but of coz not all the time, after dragons got stronger its really a big challenge

-show off( often but armor doesnt break while u do that, unless ur pr0 afker and acid rain gets u )

 

For all other things ppl use steel shield which is almost as good and under some circumstances even better than tit shield( -2accuracy is good for pvping and training on mobs that u hit/block easy).

Dont expect big market for an item that is so much more expensive and only little better from steel shield

 

Ty for ur attention

 

mp

[DogBreath]

I'm sure everyone will hate this idea, so please don't shoot me in game for suggesting it. But, what if a deadline was made for an impending EFE wipe? Say, end of the year? This way horders would be forced to make use of them before that time. I realize that might put a crunch on sales of EFEs from the shop, at least until the wipe of them. But from then forward, it should provide some balance for the EFEs again.

 

Maybe don't bump the rate back up to normal after either, just better than it is now?

 

As it is so far, I've made nearly 18k FEs without one EFE, so for us poor folks the rates right now are quite impossible feeling. And maybe people could pre-order EFEs from shop for the post wipe?

 

 

Just a thought, if you hate it fine just try not to hate me for having it....

[Vanyel]

Oh, so you've not made EFE in 18k FEs. This is a really good reason to wipe out all EFEs in game... like ones I keep for better days I was buying, making in around 200k FEs. Very bright idea.

We call such an attitude a 'Gardener Dog-like' in my country. I can't use it (I don't have it), but I will not let other have any use of it (others shouldn't have it either).

You've pointed out quite many reasons for not doing it and only one reason to do it "

As it is so far, I've made nearly 18k FEs without one EFE, so for us poor folks the rates right now are quite impossible feeling. And maybe people could pre-order EFEs from shop for the post wipe?

Very, very self-centred suggestion. I would also like to point out that the rates are exactly the same for myself, who has around 32 EFEs, for yourself who hasn't made even a one in 18k FEs and for ones who have just started playing. The only difference is the fact that I was collecting my enriched essences in past year (or even a bit longer). What about start doing it yourself, instead of calling for wipe out?

Edited November 20, 2007 by Kheres

[DogBreath]

Oh, so you've not made EFE in 18k FEs. This is a really good reason to wipe out all EFEs in game... like ones I keep for better days I was buying, making in around 200k FEs. Very bright idea.

We call such an attitude a 'Gardener Dog-like' in my country. I can't use it (I don't have it), but I will not let other have any use of it (others shouldn't have it either).

You've pointed out quite many reasons for not doing it and only one reason to do it "

As it is so far, I've made nearly 18k FEs without one EFE, so for us poor folks the rates right now are quite impossible feeling. And maybe people could pre-order EFEs from shop for the post wipe?

Very, very self-centred suggestion. I would also like to point out that the rates are exactly the same for myself, who has around 32 EFEs, for yourself who hasn't made even a one in 18k FEs and for ones who have just started playing. The only difference is the fact that I was collecting my enriched essences in past year (or even a bit longer). What about start doing it yourself, instead of calling for wipe out?

 

Did you even read the rest of the posts? It's not just me that this would help, basically everyone but the horders. Which, if you had read, seems to be the main problem. Not the people trying to just get one for something they'd like to manufacture.

 

This would also help the shop out. So, I think your reply has very little merit except as a personal attack on me, as usual (but that's not a surprise). If you hate the idea, fine, just say so. But attacking me personally over it makes no sense at all.

 

If you insist on having to attack me personally, why not just send me a pm calling me an idiot and get it over with.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Josi

[draavell]

Take all the 2 step breakable armor and make it 1 step like the leather armor is so they have to remake or buy them instead of getting repaired.

[Zamirah]

 

As it is so far, I've made nearly 18k FEs without one EFE, so for us poor folks the rates right now are quite impossible feeling. And maybe people could pre-order EFEs from shop for the post wipe?

 

I used to make 1k-2k FE every day, the last 2 weeks I was playing did I make 16-18 EFEs, without arti cape, without using astro.

Before that had I not made any EFEs for months, even if I made FE too . I use to make what I need for steel bars.

So it's completely random if you get any EFEs.

 

I use EFEs for alembics, vial molds, weapons and armor.

If we were not able to have more than few EFEs in storage would I make alembics and vial molds out of them, not sell them.

 

In that case could we come to the problems, that we needed EFEs for - lets say - armor but all had lots of alembics in their storage because they thought it was what they would need.

 

I don't see how it could be better.

[DogBreath]

 

As it is so far, I've made nearly 18k FEs without one EFE, so for us poor folks the rates right now are quite impossible feeling. And maybe people could pre-order EFEs from shop for the post wipe?

 

I used to make 1k-2k FE every day, the last 2 weeks I was playing did I make 16-18 EFEs, without arti cape, without using astro.

Before that had I not made any EFEs for months, even if I made FE too . I use to make what I need for steel bars.

So it's completely random if you get any EFEs.

 

I use EFEs for alembics, vial molds, weapons and armor.

If we were not able to have more than few EFEs in storage would I make alembics and vial molds out of them, not sell them.

 

In that case could we come to the problems, that we needed EFEs for - lets say - armor but all had lots of alembics in their storage because they thought it was what they would need.

 

I don't see how it could be better.

 

I see your point, but isn't that exactly what we're looking for here? People to use up their EFEs and "need" them so that there isn't such an abundance of them that we're backed into the corner we're in now?

 

The rates wouldn't need dropping and people wouldn't feel forced to horde them. And if someone really wanted one, they could go to the shop and buy one (or several). (seems that covers all the issues...)

Edited November 20, 2007 by Josi