Bots channel

[LabRat]

My turn.

 

Anyone that reads my replies on any of the *many* threads about this (does nobody search before posting?) will know I am against bots being moved from the market channel.

 

As a bot owner I am already restricting my bot ad posting frequency as it is on @@3 to lessen the impact.

 

My bots are trade bots and the best place to trade would be the market channel, not a dedicated bot channel - who is going to log into a channel where 90% or more of the posts would be [xxx @ 7: buy fe 2.7]?

 

My bots have paid for their position on the market channel when all is said is done. I won't be signing up for the suggested channel.

 

Feel free to restrict the frequency of bot ads all you want on the market channel to combat the perceived 'spam' if you think that will work, but don't push us onto another channel - one which players will log onto, make a post and log straight back off.

 

Bot owners are once again getting the raw end of things again and nobody is willing to stand up for us, the ones that at the end of the day are contributing to the development of this game.

 

A definite thumbs down from me, no matter how many times the suggestion is raised.

[Vanyel]

I don't think it's good idea. Paid bots are really expensive and removing them completely from channel 3 will make them quite less usable and profitable for their owners.

I would rather see such channel as addition to channel 3 AND making bots posting rarer in channel 3 (for example once every 30 minutes).

[Quimbly]

i wouldnt suggest forcing bots to another channel.

#ignore always works for me to reduce bot spam. but it is annoying to try to trade with a bot that u ignored. or know if they might have what ur looking for through advertisement. i think the best solution would be to have bots advertise in a different chat color(example grey). would be easy to filter through that way.

it would be nice for shopers and merchants.

Edited February 13, 2007 by Quim

[Ermabwed]

As a bot owner I am already restricting my bot ad posting frequency as it is on @@3 to lessen the impact.

...

Feel free to restrict the frequency of bot ads all you want on the market channel to combat the perceived 'spam' if you think that will work, but don't push us onto another channel - one which players will log onto, make a post and log straight back off.

More bots - more posts, no matter what.

I think it was also suggested in the older threads on the same topic (one might think that shows that players think it's a problem) that one could do exactly that with market channel to avoid "bot spam": log in, say your piece, log off. Who on market channel is going to see player (or bot) ads if everybody does that? With a separate channel one can trade with bots and players alike, each in a suitable fashion.

 

My bots are trade bots and the best place to trade would be the market channel, not a dedicated bot channel - who is going to log into a channel where 90% or more of the posts would be [xxx @ 7: buy fe 2.7]?

I will, just to do one thing: trade with bots.

Call me lazy, but I don't want to pm every single bot to get to know their prices.

I'd find a channel where I can get the relevant information way more useful than ignoring all bots on market to be able to trade with players. Because I don't mind trading with bots but neither am I interested in "500 Titanium Bars" or "Titanium Plate" for example nor do I want to know who is selling them every X>15 minutes.

 

My bots have paid for their position on the market channel when all is said is done. I won't be signing up for the suggested channel.

I see only "official channels" not "market channel" in the bot rules, perhaps I am looking in the wrong place.

 

Bot owners are once again getting the raw end of things again and nobody is willing to stand up for us, the ones that at the end of the day are contributing to the development of this game.

I don't think so. It will remove the bot owners from the top "most hated community members" list and put the Devs and PKers back up there

 

My trade with bots will increase significantly if this is implemented and bots offer what I want, or buy what I want to sell at prices that I like.

And on the other hand my trade with players will increase as well, because I will be able to use market channel again to buy from and sell to players.

[ttlanhil]

#ignore always works for me to reduce bot spam. but it is annoying to try to trade with a bot that u ignored.

do what I do, ignore the annoying ones

that means the ones posting annoying/silly/excitable/whatever messages every 15min... a 'normal' advertisement every half hour or hour or whatever (a lot of the bot owners have agreed to a minimum of 45min delay, because we're interested in solving this too) is a lot easier to handle

that said, I could see a use for a #ignore command that only works on channels, not PMs... I just don't know how much use it'd get besides bots

More bots - more posts, no matter what.

more bots with longer delays doesn't mean more posts (although as the numbers rise, the delay has to as well to deal with that, which isn't fun, I know)

I will, just to do one thing: trade with bots.

Call me lazy, but I don't want to pm every single bot to get to know their prices.

I'd find a channel where I can get the relevant information way more useful than ignoring all bots on market to be able to trade with players. Because I don't mind trading with bots but neither am I interested in "500 Titanium Bars" or "Titanium Plate" for example nor do I want to know who is selling them every X>15 minutes.

okay, so when someone is actively looking for something, and if they know of the bot channel and remember it, they go there... as opposed to the people finding out what items bots have on @@3 that they may think 'hey, that'd be good to have'... or not knowing about the bot channel at all?

ed: and as another point, using this alternate channel takes the players on @@3 out of the loop... how long until players are lurking on the bot sales channel waiting to respond to queries (in which case, they'll be a bit slower, so the PM will be at the business(pun intended) end of the list?

perhaps a channel for all trade bots to listen to would work... it probably would, and I like the idea... except the part about being exclusive to channel 3. if it means leaving channel 3 I won't be interested. if on, the other hand, I can put channel 3 ads to once an hour or so and respond to messages on the other channel, I'd probably go for that

My bots have paid for their position on the market channel when all is said is done. I won't be signing up for the suggested channel.

I see only "official channels" not "market channel" in the bot rules, perhaps I am looking in the wrong place.

or perhaps you're being obtuse... labrat has not only contributed a lot of effort to EL, he's also contributed a lot of cash... his bots have (AFAIK) the highest possible p/c available... what's that used for on a bot? either fighting or trade capacity... and since his bots aren't fighting, what's the condition of the payments? being able to use it for trade, as trade was at that time. and unless labrat or entropy reveals what was said in private, you have no idea if there was anything about trading said when they paid. so don't assume.

I don't think so. It will remove the bot owners from the top "most hated community members" list and put the Devs and PKers back up there

well, gee, you mean people like labrat, learner, myself, etc won't get any benefit, just hated for a different reason? thanks...

My trade with bots will increase significantly if this is implemented and bots offer what I want, or buy what I want to sell at prices that I like.

so it's not the part about being on a different channel, it's the part about the bots being forced into a stronger economic war with each other? in which the players also lose out? (because, hey, a bot is more convenient and has larger quantities most of the time)... prices go down, not just for what the bots sell, but what they pay? how many items are already on @@3 below cost price (rather a few, because of the chance of rares or XP)?

this isn't just about bots. there's quite a bit of economic impact as well

Edited February 13, 2007 by ttlanhil

[Lotheneil]

Hmmm.... so how about:

1. Bots stay on market channel and post their ads every 45-60 minutes (correct interval to be determined)

2. Bot messages on market channel have different color (light purple, grey, pale blue etc.)

3. Another channel is created for bots, where they could message more frequently (for example every 10-15 minutes) and respond to @want command - this channel, as well as responding to the command would be absolutely volountary, though greatly appreciated

 

Would it be acceptable for both sides?

[Schmurk]

My trade with bots will increase significantly if this is implemented and bots offer what I want, or buy what I want to sell at prices that I like.

so it's not the part about being on a different channel, it's the part about the bots being forced into a stronger economic war with each other? in which the players also lose out? (because, hey, a bot is more convenient and has larger quantities most of the time)... prices go down, not just for what the bots sell, but what they pay? how many items are already on @@3 below cost price (rather a few, because of the chance of rares or XP)?

this isn't just about bots. there's quite a bit of economic impact as well

I quite agree with you on that but actually most of bots buy stuff at a very cheap price and sell it at a quite expansive price. So in my concern, I prefer try to buy/sell stuff from players before asking the bots.

But if you think that it can be a drawback for players and bots, why not setting up a NPC which propose a service of looking prices of all bots for an item but for a small fee like 100 or 200gc maybe. I think that Ent will be happy to get some money off the game with this and it will reduce the abuse of such a feature. Because people will have to move to the NPC first and pay a fee to have the information. BTW, it can also be done with a simple bot if it's too much work for adding such a NPC.

[ttlanhil]

the problem with a registrar is that the information bots give will be, at best, old... at worse, it can be exploited by giving bad information ("yes, I have these great items!" "gimmeh!" "sorry, sold already,m they were so good. but while you're here, I also have...")

 

and as for the prices bots buy/sell at... you missed my point. more direct competition means they fight harder for sales, and the margins slim down, players can't compete on stock size in most case, only on price (sometimes, getting less and less so these days), which this will harm

[Schmurk]

the problem with a registrar is that the information bots give will be, at best, old... at worse, it can be exploited by giving bad information ("yes, I have these great items!" "gimmeh!" "sorry, sold already,m they were so good. but while you're here, I also have...")

Well, the bots can already do that actually, it will change nothing. And if such a system is in place, I think that we can declare an abuse on bots doing such lame things...

 

and as for the prices bots buy/sell at... you missed my point. more direct competition means they fight harder for sales, and the margins slim down, players can't compete on stock size in most case, only on price (sometimes, getting less and less so these days), which this will harm

Yes I see but I'm not really convinced of that... Anyway, as I don't have enough experience about it, I trust you.

[LabRat]

and as for the prices bots buy/sell at... you missed my point. more direct competition means they fight harder for sales, and the margins slim down, players can't compete on stock size in most case, only on price (sometimes, getting less and less so these days), which this will harm

Yes I see but I'm not really convinced of that... Anyway, as I don't have enough experience about it, I trust you.

Simple economics.

 

A bot is a business, like a shop or a factory.

 

To show a profit to me my bots must make a profit of 2.8 million gc, and until that stage my bots are making a loss.

 

If bots are forced to compete with each other the profit margin will decrease. There are 2 ways to increase profitability - buy lower or sell higher, either of which will have a negative effect on sales.. if I choose to decrease the buy price people won't sell to the bot, meaning I have nothing to sell. If I choose to increase the sell price I will push myself out of the market, meaning I will have a surplus of stock but nowhere to sell it.

 

The prices I have set for the items I do the most frequent trade with are in my opinion fair, which is confirmed by the fact that the bot buys and sells at a good throughput.

 

Should I be forced to compete with the other bots in a price war then everyone will be a loser, not just the bot owners.

 

Bots are useful if you are just dumping a few of something cheap that isn't worth chasing round finding a buyer for, or if you want someone that is there 24/7.

 

I won't be going into a price war with other bot owners, I set my prices based on the market rates and what will produce the best turnover. I regularly check other bots round me to see if they need anything my bot has, I will happily transfer stock to help the other bot owner out.

 

The bot owners have their own private forum in which we have said numerous times that we won't price fix. What the people that keep suggesting the separate channel to check multiple prices don't seem to realise is that is exactly what we as bot owners would be forced to do.

 

If I so desired (which I don't) I could use my bots and completely undermine the economy - if I decide to set the sell price for silver ore on Agneum to 1 gc per for a month (showing no profit to me) what will happen to the price of silver ore on market? or LE, HE, silver rings or any of the numerous secondary and tertiary trades that rely on a stable silver ore price? Think about this before trying to tell us that bots can't control - or destroy - the economy. What you are trying to force us into will do just that.

Edited February 13, 2007 by LabRat

[Ermabwed]

I will, just to do one thing: trade with bots.

Call me lazy, but I don't want to pm every single bot to get to know their prices.

I'd find a channel where I can get the relevant information way more useful than ignoring all bots on market to be able to trade with players. Because I don't mind trading with bots but neither am I interested in "500 Titanium Bars" or "Titanium Plate" for example nor do I want to know who is selling them every X>15 minutes.

okay, so when someone is actively looking for something, and if they know of the bot channel and remember it, they go there... as opposed to the people finding out what items bots have on @@3 that they may think 'hey, that'd be good to have'... or not knowing about the bot channel at all?

I'm sure having the bot channel in the official channel list and telling players on channel 3 will be enough to show players. What I mean is if somebody is looking for item X people already say (or did when I had all bots ignored and was on market channel) "bot Y has that" also possible to say "I don't think you'll find a buyer/seller here, did you check bot channel?"

ed: and as another point, using this alternate channel takes the players on @@3 out of the loop... how long until players are lurking on the bot sales channel waiting to respond to queries (in which case, they'll be a bit slower, so the PM will be at the business(pun intended) end of the list?

Yes, but those are the ones that somehow live with the spam now too.

perhaps a channel for all trade bots to listen to would work... it probably would, and I like the idea... except the part about being exclusive to channel 3. if it means leaving channel 3 I won't be interested. if on, the other hand, I can put channel 3 ads to once an hour or so and respond to messages on the other channel, I'd probably go for that

Well, for me that would mean #ignore all bots, then rename ignore list to enter bot channel, ask my questions, rename ignore list to original name (have to check wether it's enough to rename the ignore list while the client is running). Because even with only one Ad per hour that still means almost one per minute if only half the bots that are online at the moment are trade bots, some might be able to live with that but personally I'd prefer not to.

I see only "official channels" not "market channel" in the bot rules, perhaps I am looking in the wrong place.

or perhaps you're being obtuse... labrat has not only contributed a lot of effort to EL, he's also contributed a lot of cash... his bots have (AFAIK) the highest possible p/c available... what's that used for on a bot? either fighting or trade capacity... and since his bots aren't fighting, what's the condition of the payments? being able to use it for trade, as trade was at that time. and unless labrat or entropy reveals what was said in private, you have no idea if there was anything about trading said when they paid. so don't assume.

Unless you are telling me, that the bot rules are only for those that get only single blessed bots or other have-nots, I doubt that I am being obtuse. I was merely pointing out that the bot rules do not specifically say that bots can post in market channel.

As for trade: I don't see how getting on players' ignore list increases trade for a bot.

I don't think so. It will remove the bot owners from the top "most hated community members" list and put the Devs and PKers back up there

well, gee, you mean people like labrat, learner, myself, etc won't get any benefit, just hated for a different reason? thanks...

Hmm, what more than "" does it need for you to see that I made a joke? Devs get frequent bitching around here, especially Radu... and look at the fuss that PKing causes....

My trade with bots will increase significantly if this is implemented and bots offer what I want, or buy what I want to sell at prices that I like.

so it's not the part about being on a different channel, it's the part about the bots being forced into a stronger economic war with each other? in which the players also lose out? (because, hey, a bot is more convenient and has larger quantities most of the time)... prices go down, not just for what the bots sell, but what they pay? how many items are already on @@3 below cost price (rather a few, because of the chance of rares or XP)?

this isn't just about bots. there's quite a bit of economic impact as well

No, you chose to misunderstand me. My point was that with a bot channel where bots listen to my @want/@sell posts I can actually trade with them, because I have a way of knowing what bot sells or buys what I want to buy or sell without opening 14 tabs in my browser to see only what the ones that Learner hosts buy and sell.

The economic impact of bots is already there without a special channel for bots. The way a lot of bots that I have seen work is: buy lower than market price (which is sometimes below npc price as well) and sell a bit higher than market price, thus setting bounds for player prices in a way similar to npc prices.

Just because it will be easier to see that bot X sells for 0.1gc less or bot Y buys for 0.2gc (on essences for example, make it 50-1000gc on higher cost items) more will not result in "stronger economic war" if they aren't standing right next to each other... who of us travels across 2 maps or to a different continent for 10gc or whatever tiny percentage of the price of an item in gain if he can do his trade where he is at anyways?

 

edit: sorry: quotes messed up... don't see where... ok thanks, fixed it now.

Edited February 13, 2007 by Ermabwed

[Learner]

With only 5 player selectable channels, you won't have very many people in channel 3 & the bot channel. People are already complaining there aren't enough channels!

[ttlanhil]

I'm sure having the bot channel in the official channel list and telling players on channel 3 will be enough to show players. What I mean is if somebody is looking for item X people already say (or did when I had all bots ignored and was on market channel) "bot Y has that" also possible to say "I don't think you'll find a buyer/seller here, did you check bot channel?"

okay, that'd help, but how many would actually go ask for the bot-PM-spam in that channel? it wouldn't take long before people only go there for items they really want badly, which means the normal smaller trades go missing (for example, a huge quantity of the trades vakana gets are small quantities of rings, small being 1-5... would people know about that if I didn't advertise that I have them for sale on @@3? just because they're small trades doesn't mean they don't pull in cash)

Yes, but those are the ones that somehow live with the spam now too.

or they ignore the bots and respond to players, which they would... or there'd be enough players there for it to pick up... and then what? that channel takes over from @@3 for players as well? or it gets chatty and people visiting get even more messages? it's not impossible

Well, for me that would mean #ignore all bots, then rename ignore list to enter bot channel, ask my questions, rename ignore list to original name (have to check wether it's enough to rename the ignore list while the client is running). Because even with only one Ad per hour that still means almost one per minute if only half the bots that are online at the moment are trade bots, some might be able to live with that but personally I'd prefer not to.

it isn't, and they're not. probably almost a half are ants, without checking. there's also info, guild, guard, etc... (plus for example tinkerbelle, who trades, but isn't exactly a trade bot)

Unless you are telling me, that the bot rules are only for those that get only single blessed bots or other have-nots, I doubt that I am being obtuse. I was merely pointing out that the bot rules do not specifically say that bots can post in market channel.

meaning the bot rules don't have any relevance to your point

As for trade: I don't see how getting on players' ignore list increases trade for a bot.

not all trade bots will get on the same ignore lists. and heck, I know of cases where vakana has come off of ignore lists, because of the increase in delay and the other services... if people ignore three quarters of the bots, but it's all different quarters, the bots still sell, and part of that will filter to the other players (through sales onwards, or being told about the bot and it being unignored)... it may not be great, but there's still sales

Hmm, what more than "" does it need for you to see that I made a joke? Devs get frequent bitching around here, especially Radu... and look at the fuss that PKing causes....

sometimes there's also sarcasm in posts (subtlety++)

No, you chose to misunderstand me. My point was that with a bot channel where bots listen to my @want/@sell posts I can actually trade with them, because I have a way of knowing what bot sells or buys what I want to buy or sell without opening 14 tabs in my browser to see only what the ones that Learner hosts buy and sell.

only for the big sales. for the general small sales, it just won't be worth it to ask to be spammed.

The economic impact of bots is already there without a special channel for bots. The way a lot of bots that I have seen work is: buy lower than market price (which is sometimes below npc price as well) and sell a bit higher than market price, thus setting bounds for player prices in a way similar to npc prices.

Just because it will be easier to see that bot X sells for 0.1gc less or bot Y buys for 0.2gc (on essences for example, make it 50-1000gc on higher cost items) more will not result in "stronger economic war" if they aren't standing right next to each other... who of us travels across 2 maps or to a different continent for 10gc or whatever tiny percentage of the price of an item in gain if he can do his trade where he is at anyways?

it will, though. as players know more exactly the prices each bot offers/pays, they can be more choosey... and the price is one of the few areas bots can compete on... location is one too, yes, but wasn't grouping the bots at market places also supposed to help here?

and like I said, the bot channel would be used for the larger purchases... and a few percent could add up to serious money (certainly enough for the essences to TPTPR or a ring)

edit: sorry: quotes messed up... don't see where...

there's a limit to how many per post... once you go over, it breaks like you've seen. ed: oops, I got it too... will fix shortly Although I don't want to go over stuff others have said, I think learner's point is important enough to restate... the channel limit will be another hindrance to splitting market... and either bots won't get trade, or the players will shift to the bot channel

ed2" wait, 5? the three 3 channels and which 2 out of {local, (M)PM, GM/IG} ? (plus server, maybe, but that's not as (de)selectable)

Edited February 13, 2007 by ttlanhil

[Aislinn]

edit: sorry: quotes messed up... don't see where...

I think it's because you can't use more than 10 quotes.

[Tanyia]

With only 5 player selectable channels, you won't have very many people in channel 3 & the bot channel. People are already complaining there aren't enough channels!

 

Can the channel limit be raised, or is there some technical reason why it has to be three?

[The_Piper]

There is no need to stay in that bot channel.

 

Just go there, post "buying FEs", leave and wait for the PMs of the bots.

 

Why would someone stay in an empty channel where players only post what they want to buy/sell from a bot?

 

Piper

[LabRat]

Someone sent me a PM asking if he can have his bot having a channel all by itself, to respond to people. For example, you would say: "@buy efe" then the bot would PM you with the price and quantity.

Now, I don't want one bot to own a channel, we have too many bots in the game for that.

However, I was thinking, would the bot owners and players want a bot channel?

Basically, all the participating bots would advertise there instead of the market channel, and they would all respond to a query like @want fire essences

If they don't stay on the channel after their 3 word post, the advertising on that channel is for naught, basically the bots have been muted in an underhand way.

[Schmurk]

If I so desired (which I don't) I could use my bots and completely undermine the economy - if I decide to set the sell price for silver ore on Agneum to 1 gc per for a month (showing no profit to me) what will happen to the price of silver ore on market? or LE, HE, silver rings or any of the numerous secondary and tertiary trades that rely on a stable silver ore price? Think about this before trying to tell us that bots can't control - or destroy - the economy. What you are trying to force us into will do just that.

I totally agree with you but you'll not be able to sell silver ore at 1gc each for ever, there will be an end because your stock is not infinite.

Anyway I understand your point about price war and it's the same in RL. In general, when you check all sellers, you can see that they don't make their benefit on the same products and it works very nice.

But to limit the effect of price war and as every bots don't sell the same items, maybe the feature could just give the name of the bots who sell/buy the item.

 

For example, if it's controlled by a bot, you PM it with "#buy EFE" and it just gives you the bots who sell EFEs but it doesn't give you the price. Like this, half of the job is done for the player and he doesn't have to check the ~50 bots online but maybe less than 10 of them. And to limit the effect even more, some people have proposed to put one bot per continent but we can go further and put one bot per continent quarter and they will reveal the names of the bots which are in the same quarter. But in order it works, a little fee should have to be added to force people to go see them or it has no interest.

The other interesting thing which come with this last idea is that bot owners will have to choose the district where they want to put their bots according to the other bots around...

 

I really think that such a feature will improve gaming experience because for the moment, as there's over 50 trading bots online it's really painful when you search something to buy.

 

About advertising on the market channel and after reading the opinion of the several bot owners, I agree that it's needed for them and they should stay on chan 3 but they have to increase the time between each ad.

[Ermabwed]

okay, that'd help, but how many would actually go ask for the bot-PM-spam in that channel? it wouldn't take long before people only go there for items they really want badly, which means the normal smaller trades go missing (for example, a huge quantity of the trades vakana gets are small quantities of rings, small being 1-5... would people know about that if I didn't advertise that I have them for sale on @@3? just because they're small trades doesn't mean they don't pull in cash)

I think players will do the small (and perhaps badly wanted) trades with the closest bot, so ads on market only work if they include location, so players know (if they remember) where the closest bot is. This seems to work without market ads, as Iduna demonstrates; that bot is all about location.

A different option would be to make it possible to pass more/different options with a want/sell in bot channel

want/sell [item] [maximum/minimum price]|[map]
examples:
want fire essence 3.5 morcraven marsh
sell water essence 5.5
sell steel bar portland

(oh and btw. on "sell" command the number should signify minimum price)

 

that channel takes over from @@3 for players as well? or it gets chatty and people visiting get even more messages? it's not impossible

Well, we're here because people want to be able to trade with players without having to ignore all bots. As for "not impossible": players could also get a bot free market channel by deciding on a not official one, downside: no moderation. It's not impossible either...

meaning the bot rules don't have any relevance to your point

They do, if you care to read what I said: Labrat stated that he purchased the right to post in market and I rectified that towards permission to post in official channel.

As for trade: I don't see how getting on players' ignore list increases trade for a bot.

not all trade bots will get on the same ignore lists. and heck, I know of cases where vakana has come off of ignore lists, because of the increase in delay and the other services... if people ignore three quarters of the bots, but it's all different quarters, the bots still sell, and part of that will filter to the other players (through sales onwards, or being told about the bot and it being unignored)... it may not be great, but there's still sales

Yes, exactly, it isn't great. From what I see bot owners are not only loosing customers, they are alienating them in the process. If that's the desired effect when paying for a bot then this is settled

 

Hmm, what more than "" does it need for you to see that I made a joke? Devs get frequent bitching around here, especially Radu... and look at the fuss that PKing causes....

sometimes there's also sarcasm in posts (subtlety++)

Hmm, makes it a bit pointless to seriously debate with people that reserve the right to back out of what they say

for the general small sales, it just won't be worth it to ask to be spammed.

If half of the bots (lets just assume that, takes increasing bot numbers into account, it's 93 now, was 92 when I posted earlier) are trade bots, that would mean a maximum of 45 replies if all bots sell/buy the item, which is highly unlikely but easily less than just two inv/wanted to bots. Feel free to prove me wrong

it will, though. as players know more exactly the prices each bot offers/pays, they can be more choosey... and the price is one of the few areas bots can compete on... location is one too, yes, but wasn't grouping the bots at market places also supposed to help here?

and like I said, the bot channel would be used for the larger purchases... and a few percent could add up to serious money (certainly enough for the essences to TPTPR or a ring)

The players that care about 10gc in a 1000gc trade will not change. But they are the ones that pm each and every bot already and given the fact that players usually (have to) pay better than bots, bots didn't see much of their trade in the first place.

the channel limit will be another hindrance to splitting market...

Yes, that's why I'd be using the channel like I now have to use market: log in, say my line, log off.

[HeLLRaiZeR]

If I so desired (which I don't) I could use my bots and completely undermine the economy - if I decide to set the sell price for silver ore on Agneum to 1 gc per for a month (showing no profit to me) what will happen to the price of silver ore on market? or LE, HE, silver rings or any of the numerous secondary and tertiary trades that rely on a stable silver ore price? Think about this before trying to tell us that bots can't control - or destroy - the economy. What you are trying to force us into will do just that.

 

Nice threats LabRat, something tells me that if you do this the future of selling bots is coming to an end

[LabRat]

If I so desired (which I don't) I could use my bots and completely undermine the economy - if I decide to set the sell price for silver ore on Agneum to 1 gc per for a month (showing no profit to me) what will happen to the price of silver ore on market? or LE, HE, silver rings or any of the numerous secondary and tertiary trades that rely on a stable silver ore price? Think about this before trying to tell us that bots can't control - or destroy - the economy. What you are trying to force us into will do just that.

I totally agree with you but you'll not be able to sell silver ore at 1gc each for ever, there will be an end because your stock is not infinite.

Wrong - buying at 1 gc the bot is pretty much permanently full - I regularly get PMs from miners saying Agneum needs emptying - my reply is always "good - that means she is doing her job"

 

If I so desired (which I don't) I could use my bots and completely undermine the economy - if I decide to set the sell price for silver ore on Agneum to 1 gc per for a month (showing no profit to me) what will happen to the price of silver ore on market? or LE, HE, silver rings or any of the numerous secondary and tertiary trades that rely on a stable silver ore price? Think about this before trying to tell us that bots can't control - or destroy - the economy. What you are trying to force us into will do just that.

 

Nice threats LabRat, something tells me that if you do this the future of selling bots is coming to an end

(which I don't)

seems pretty clear that it was not a threat, but a statement of possibilities due to the nature of commerce. Read the last line in the paragraph and not just the first.

[ttlanhil]

I think players will do the small (and perhaps badly wanted) trades with the closest bot, so ads on market only work if they include location, so players know (if they remember) where the closest bot is.

and without the ads on 3 so people know about the bot and the sort of stuff it sells? not to mention that it also includes people who have seen the bot (on market or local) and enquired, and know the location from that... moving the bots away means they aren't as well known about

Well, we're here because people want to be able to trade with players without having to ignore all bots. As for "not impossible": players could also get a bot free market channel by deciding on a not official one, downside: no moderation. It's not impossible either...

sure. but how likely is that? not very. on the other hand, if the bot channel works, which is the aim, then there'll be a number of people who see they could get more sales by sitting on both channels

meaning the bot rules don't have any relevance to your point

They do, if you care to read what I said: Labrat stated that he purchased the right to post in market and I rectified that towards permission to post in official channel.

sigh. no. you're saying that the bot rules don't give that right. which they don't. but you're ignoring anything else on the point. if labrat paid to sell and advertise on the market channel, then he paid to sell and advertise on the market channel

Yes, exactly, it isn't great. From what I see bot owners are not only loosing customers, they are alienating them in the process. If that's the desired effect when paying for a bot then this is settled

the point being: ignore lists are mutable. sometimes bots go on them, sometimes they come off. and many of the bot owners have already been trying to resolve the botspam problem by increasing advert delays... which, AFAIK, has been relatively well received by those who notice.

for the general small sales, it just won't be worth it to ask to be spammed.

If half of the bots (lets just assume that, takes increasing bot numbers into account, it's 93 now, was 92 when I posted earlier) are trade bots, that would mean a maximum of 45 replies if all bots sell/buy the item, which is highly unlikely but easily less than just two inv/wanted to bots. Feel free to prove me wrong

okay, lets assume an average of 5 replies per query. and lets assume someone wants to buy 3 items and sell 6 to pay for them. and lets also assume, as vakana's logs indicate, that most people will do this as separate transactions (ie they don't use 'titanium' to find out about all the tit items on display... but if they do, that's almost as bad as asking about each tit plate part, due to the number of items, many unwanted)... we now have 45 queries for (usually) small quantity trades... will this work? no. it only works for the big-ticket trades.

[Lunksnark]

This discussion seems to be going back and forth and to be honest I'm kind of losing the plot. However it seems to me that a lot of the replies are focussing on the symptoms of the problem and not the root cause.

 

The underlying issues seem to be:

1. There are more and more bots being added and the percentage of bots to players is getting skewed.

2. Bot spam on the sales channel is becoming and issue

3. Bandwidth issues with bots is becoming common place - especially if everyone gets involved with this new channel idea.

 

Ideas:

1. Cap the number of bots allowed in the game. ie. If we are at 96 paid bots now, then say when we reach 100 there will be no more new submissions allowed. Bots have a yearly fee so if this isn't paid it is removed and the next on list is made active. This figure could be readdressed when the average number of real players increases to a certain point.

2. Moving bots to inside locations or away from highly populated areas. This would remove a fair amount of work from the server, but more than likely would really hack off a number of existing bot owners.

3. Fragment the client server comms. The majority of trade bots do not need to see every single message sent by the server and this could be made a lot more lightweight. Some features could also be made pay per use. ie rather than just paying to have the bot buffed up, additional api's could be purchased, such as ones involving storage.

4. Mandate a higher minimum advertisement time. I, like a number of the other bot owners have voluntarily set it at around 40-45 minutes but I'm guessing from some of the posts here that there are a number who haven't?

5. Make the new channel another yearly pay for service which can be used in addition to channel 3. Not everyone will take up the offer, but those who do will get some additional benefit.

 

I like the fundamental idea idea of this new channel and applaud the idea of making it voluntary, but I can see some real drawbacks in how it would be used. I think ttlanhil and LabRat have a good handle on those issues so wont reiterate here.

 

Caveats:

I do run a bot, and I do not specifically advocate any of the ideas listed above, I'm just throwing a few out there.

[vytukas]

Personally I think the following would be the best solution:

• Make market channel for humans only.
  
• Create a separate bot channel, if needed.
  
• Create an online bot services directory in EL client. For example, I am in Portland, and I open bot directory: "You are in Portland. Nearest bots: blahblahsuperservice1 blahblahtrader2 etc. Also see: Other maps (clickable). When I click on a specific bot, I see a short description provided by owner, also owner name and guildname, if present.
  

Disclaimer: I don't run a bot, I know bot owners aggressively defend bots in market channel, well, they paid for bots, they have a right to discuss it too, of course.

[Puntif]

As a bot owner, the reason I created my bot is to allow me to sell items I make and to buy supplies. My bot was originally designed to use the market channel in my place (instead of me having to stay on the market channel to buy and sell stuff, my bot did this for me). My bot no longer responds to messages in channel 3 but will still accept a buy or sell message on channel 3 as an order that will be filled on next trade. This function isn't really needed so to that extent my bot really doesn't need channel 3. I do sometimes use this list of what people are trying to buy and sell as market research though so my bot probably will continue to monitor channel 3.

 

As a bot user, I have found that the bot advertisements on the markets channel sometimes remind me of a bot that I might want to do business with. I plan on adding code to my bot to advertise on channel 3 but at intervals over 45 minutes - my bot does a decent amount of business even without advertising.

 

Some posts in this topic mentioned pricing issues. I found that when my bot was buying stuff at market price, she instantly ran out of money. I can usually find a price below "market price" that provides the items at the rate that I can afford to buy them. For selling manufactured and crafted items, the "market price" is often below the cost of the ingredients that I have to purchase to make the item. If I wanted to sell at those prices I would have to do other stuff to make enough money to buy the ingredients to continue making those items.