Shujral Report post Posted August 31, 2010 That said, it is an insight into "average-joe-nub's" first impression of EL, and since he makes up like 70%+ of the MMO players out there, changes to the game to appease him are worth at least considering. Really? I'd rather just take the 30% that are already appeased. It's not like we're talking about 30% of 50 people or anything, It's thousands. I think the pool is big enough as it is. And herein lies the heart of the problem: Do we want thousands of average-joe-nubs in the game and by necessity dumb down EL into a different game? Or do we want EL as we know it now for the most part, and keep the player base smaller and more ambitious? I think most (myself included) would prefer the latter. I admit the game is a little hard to get started in. At the same time, if that difficulty weeds out some of the less "desirable" (sounds bad, but you get the idea) players, then that's great. And EL isn't a complex game, it's just badly documented, that way it is hard for a player to start with the game. I disagree. However, I will agree that it's "badly documented" IF you expect everything to be done for you, no thinking required. Seems a bit hyperbolic, I don't think that's what he's saying. Example: In the video, the reviewer complains about a lack of "radar". While I agree that you shouldn't have everything you need to know spoon fed to you, you don't really expect new players to go halfway down the second page of "shortcut keys" under the "help" tab in the help/skills/encyc/rules window to learn about usage of the mini-map, do you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Piper Report post Posted August 31, 2010 While I agree that you shouldn't have everything you need to know spoon fed to you, you don't really expect new players to go halfway down the second page of "shortcut keys" under the "help" tab in the help/skills/encyc/rules window to learn about usage of the mini-map, do you? But somehow you have to teach players about the mini map (and other features aswell, ofc). So, writing it on the 2nd page of "shortcut keys" in the ency is not the right way. Having an NPC, for example, the Tutorial NPC, who tells newbies about features doesnt work either, because they dont read NPC dialogues. Making a #hint for that feature works neither, cause of lack of reading ability. Bringing back Newbie Island, where some NPC's teach the newbies some basics doesnt work either, read Radu's articles about the making of EL. Adding a README.TXT to the download archive, same problem: READING.. So how do you think newbies should (and will) learn about the features of the game? Piper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kalix Report post Posted August 31, 2010 (edited) Its not that new players dont know how to read, and the person behind the video didnt know how to read, he just couldn't tell the npc had a quest and didnt want to read all the dialogue he wanted to get to the quest part where the npc offered up the quest to do, and so would the majority of the gaming community in the world. That doesnt meen i think all the dialogue should be gone, but rather maybe have the options that lead to the quest have maybe (quest) next to the option and a symbol over the npc head saying it has a quest (el is the only game ive ever played that doesnt do that) Then new players can tell the tutorial npc has a quest and how to find it through all the dialogue and options which will teach them all the basic features of the game, how to open ency and help menu ect. Edited August 31, 2010 by Kalix Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aislinn Report post Posted August 31, 2010 The issue is not just about quests. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shujral Report post Posted September 1, 2010 While I agree that you shouldn't have everything you need to know spoon fed to you, you don't really expect new players to go halfway down the second page of "shortcut keys" under the "help" tab in the help/skills/encyc/rules window to learn about usage of the mini-map, do you? But somehow you have to teach players about the mini map (and other features aswell, ofc). So, writing it on the 2nd page of "shortcut keys" in the ency is not the right way. Having an NPC, for example, the Tutorial NPC, who tells newbies about features doesnt work either, because they dont read NPC dialogues. Making a #hint for that feature works neither, cause of lack of reading ability. Bringing back Newbie Island, where some NPC's teach the newbies some basics doesnt work either, read Radu's articles about the making of EL. Adding a README.TXT to the download archive, same problem: READING.. So how do you think newbies should (and will) learn about the features of the game? Piper On the minimap example, how about a minimap button? There's a button for just about every other window. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elveron Report post Posted September 1, 2010 Radu doesn't like lazy players. Evidence of this is quests with variable paths like the dailies, or quests that aren't really obvious if you aren't reading carefully. He wants it that way. His attitude is if people can't be bothered to read the dialogues carefully, then they don't deserve the experience. I think highlighting NPCs with question marks or exclamation points is tacky. I think everyone working on the game has done a great job with the NPCs, and that the tutorials quests have gotten to be incredible -- they're really good. Still, first impressions are just that, first impressions, and it's tough to get people to stick around in EL, if they are the least bit lazy, or if they somehow fail to talk to the tutorial NPC, or don't understand it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rhapsodist Report post Posted September 1, 2010 (edited) Agree with Aislinn and co. The starting phase of the game acts as a good filter for the kind of players we generally don't want. The decline in the community has been biggest thing that stands out to me since I first started playing 4 or 5 years ago. And I've never had a problem with the EL interface... it still gives me the good old EL 'feel'. A lot of things have changed but I'd like to keep some of the old things too. Edited September 1, 2010 by Winkz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lorlen Report post Posted September 1, 2010 (edited) Thanks Aislinn. Good to know that people who don't instantly agree with everything you say are given such nice treatment <3 Continuing the fine traditions of the EL forums! Anyway; Winkz' post basically highlights the problem for me. The majority of players in this game, if they stay long enough, get converted to the view that new players are bad. This cannot be a good thing... it's basically inbreeding on a slightly larger scale. The only people who ever really stick around all end up being pretty much the same, which is great for the short-term as generally people get along, but bad for the long term if you want the game population to grow. I've often wondered why one minute I'd see an ad for EL and the next see new casual "normal" players getting shot down and basically forced to quit the game by a community that is generally much too quick to judge and basically hurting itself if it does want more players. Once again I'll state the single most obvious fact that this whole debate hinges on... If radu wants the game population to grow then he will have to take note of these suggestions, as well as many others that I'm sure people have stored away. If not then we can just lock this thread because it's basically a waste of time and banter. It just depends where radu wants to take the game from here; either way is fine... obviously the game won't die out or anything if he wants to keep it small. The past is proof enough of that. Edited September 1, 2010 by Lorlen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khalai Report post Posted September 1, 2010 I generally agree with Lorlen. Playerbase is quite small and it seems to me, that's it's continuously decreasing in the years I've stick around here. Stop playing elitism and "you're not good for this game if..." and try to expand population a bit please... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entris Report post Posted September 1, 2010 My first impression after watching the video is that he complains alot and wants things in EL to be like they are in other games instead of looking at EL as it's own game and therefor don't make any effort to understand the game in itself Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dipi Report post Posted September 1, 2010 C'mon guys! take a breathe and calm down, is just a first sight (and i have to agree with him in some points, though i discovered EL +6 years ago). Eternal Lands ReviewComing soon… Let's wait the full Review and then, if it's crappy, we can flame him. http://mmohut.com/review/eternal-lands And i was surprised how many screenshots he took in 13 minutes AND doing part of the tutorial; or he came back to analize deeper the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aislinn Report post Posted September 1, 2010 I've often wondered why one minute I'd see an ad for EL and the next see new casual "normal" players getting shot down and basically forced to quit the game by a community that is generally much too quick to judge and basically hurting itself if it does want more players. This is where I disagree with you. The "new player" is not viewed as bad. Notice the help channels and the decent amount of players and mods in there to help. Note the mods who help on IP and answer #help_me questions. We like new players as much as anyone. However the new|old|medium players who insist the game is bad because it's not like WoW or Runescape, the new|old|medium players who insist they don't have to read anything to get by and demand, yes demand!, we do all his work|gaming for him, and the new|old|medium players who come in for no other purpose than to troll or insult...those hopefully do get weeded out. They are not good for any game. It's not too much to ask that EL be judged on EL alone. It was not meant to be a mind-numbing do-nothing-but-level-anyway game. And it is not too much to ask that somebody claiming to be a game authority actually get his facts right before presenting them to the public. And nobody has reasonably answered pip's question. How should the newbie be informed of all the game features that do not fit on page 1 of any help or encyclopedia page or on the interface or screen? Should we just remove them since newbies should not be forced to read? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizzy Report post Posted September 1, 2010 Some of the best Movies I have ever seen had shitty reviews. And I am going to guess that video game reviews are sort of in line with that. He should get his facts correct before claming this is a review. Minimum Requirements: OS: Windows XP CPU: Intel Pentium 3 700 Mhz RAM: 128 MB HDD: 200 MB Free Graphics Card: 32 MB Recommended Specifications: OS: Windows XP / Vista / 2000 CPU: Intel Pentium 4 2.4 Ghz RAM: 512 MB or more HDD: 900 MB Free Graphics Card: 64 MB Noob cant even figure out this is multi platform game, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lorlen Report post Posted September 1, 2010 I've often wondered why one minute I'd see an ad for EL and the next see new casual "normal" players getting shot down and basically forced to quit the game by a community that is generally much too quick to judge and basically hurting itself if it does want more players. This is where I disagree with you. The "new player" is not viewed as bad. Notice the help channels and the decent amount of players and mods in there to help. Note the mods who help on IP and answer #help_me questions. We like new players as much as anyone. However the new|old|medium players who insist the game is bad because it's not like WoW or Runescape, the new|old|medium players who insist they don't have to read anything to get by and demand, yes demand!, we do all his work|gaming for him, and the new|old|medium players who comes in for no other purpose than to troll or insult...those hopefully do get weeded out. They are not good for any game. It's not too much to ask that EL be judged on EL alone. It was not meant to be a mind-numbing do-nothing-but-level-anyway game. And it is not too much to ask that somebody claiming to be a game authority actually get his facts right before presenting them to the public. And nobody has reasonably answered pip's question. How should the newbie be informed of all the game features that do not fit on page 1 of any help or encyclopedia page or on the interface or screen? Should we just remove them since newbies should not be forced to read? but...but... The population of this game supports my argument much more than yours. You might like new players but you apparently have absolutely no idea how to actually encourage them to stay in the game and bring their friends. If it was so newbie friendly there would been a large population that had steadily grown over the years. There isn't. As for the rest: I lol'd at you suggesting a tutorial section would basically mean you were doing all the work for someone. This game is the largest grindfest I've ever played; even the original Silkroad was never as bad as this... you need to invest so many hours in this game it's unreal*, why does it matter so much if the start of the game is made easier for the average mmo player? *(This isn't a criticism; it's part of what makes this a different and attractive game to some, just an observation.) Now how should we give a tutorial to new players entering the game? I mean I'd suggest an (optional) tutorial island or something like it where you are guided through the very basics of the game: their first alchemy, manu, fight, potion and spells. Obviously they only remain in this area for a while and only get given the ingreds for 1 or 2 spell/items/whatever. I'd also suggest putting links to the relevant section of the encyc on almost all of the games windows so new players can easily access the information they need when they want to read up more on something. This seems like a pretty easy solution, no? No-one ever said this game is bad because it isn't like wow or runescape; on the contrary it's one of the things that has always made it good. Also no-one is demanding to not have to read anything, but rather to not have to read so much right at the very start of the game when the emphasis should be more on gameplay and getting people hooked before they have to read so much. Basically all that is being suggested is that the very start of the game be made more newbie friendly, aimed more at the average gamer in today's world. Once again (see numerous other posts on why this is pointless if your aim isn't actually to expand the playerbase). I fail to see why this is such an issue unless you are actually elitist and don't want certain types of people plaing the game but rather want only the people you approve of, in which case your opposition to this makes perfect sense and we finally have an answer to the major question. And EL will never be judged on EL alone; you think this game is magically seperated off from the rest of the world? Wish I got given that luxury when people look at what work i've done or accomplished and didn't compare it to anything that's ever been done by anyone else, would make me look alot better thats for sure! Oh and if you take suggestions and criticisms as trolling and insults then I am sorry for you, but will not stop posting. (For that reason anyway) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aislinn Report post Posted September 1, 2010 I've often wondered why one minute I'd see an ad for EL and the next see new casual "normal" players getting shot down and basically forced to quit the game by a community that is generally much too quick to judge and basically hurting itself if it does want more players. This is where I disagree with you. The "new player" is not viewed as bad. Notice the help channels and the decent amount of players and mods in there to help. Note the mods who help on IP and answer #help_me questions. We like new players as much as anyone. However the new|old|medium players who insist the game is bad because it's not like WoW or Runescape, the new|old|medium players who insist they don't have to read anything to get by and demand, yes demand!, we do all his work|gaming for him, and the new|old|medium players who comes in for no other purpose than to troll or insult...those hopefully do get weeded out. They are not good for any game. It's not too much to ask that EL be judged on EL alone. It was not meant to be a mind-numbing do-nothing-but-level-anyway game. And it is not too much to ask that somebody claiming to be a game authority actually get his facts right before presenting them to the public. And nobody has reasonably answered pip's question. How should the newbie be informed of all the game features that do not fit on page 1 of any help or encyclopedia page or on the interface or screen? Should we just remove them since newbies should not be forced to read? but...but... The population of this game supports my argument much more than yours. You might like new players but you apparently have absolutely no idea how to actually encourage them to stay in the game and bring their friends. If it was so newbie friendly there would been a large population that had steadily grown over the years. There isn't. As for the rest: I lol'd at you suggesting a tutorial section would basically mean you were doing all the work for someone. This game is the largest grindfest I've ever played; even the original Silkroad was never as bad as this... you need to invest so many hours in this game it's unreal*, why does it matter so much if the start of the game is made easier for the average mmo player? *(This isn't a criticism; it's part of what makes this a different and attractive game to some, just an observation.) I did not suggest the tutorial section is doing the work for someone. But on the topic, have you tried the new tutorials? Also, how else would you play an online game, if not by reading and clicking and leveling? Now how should we give a tutorial to new players entering the game? I mean I'd suggest an (optional) tutorial island or something like it where you are guided through the very basics of the game: their first alchemy, manu, fight, potion and spells. Obviously they only remain in this area for a while and only get given the ingreds for 1 or 2 spell/items/whatever. I'd also suggest putting links to the relevant section of the encyc on almost all of the games windows so new players can easily access the information they need when they want to read up more on something. This seems like a pretty easy solution, no?EL began with a Newbie Island that was mandatory. Players complained and wanted to get right into the game. It was removed, although I think it should be put back and not optional. Optional will just have the newbie "joe-pr0's" skipping it anyway, so we are right back where we started. Links on all the windows will just clutter up the windows with even more overwhelming information. The newbie doesn't KNOW yet what he needs to know or doesn't. That is why we made a ? icon and sorted the info on page 1 of the help|encylopedia window. How much easier does it get? Hints that scroll across their screen....a help channel. No-one ever said this game is bad because it isn't like wow or runescape; on the contrary it's one of the things that has always made it good. Also no-one is demanding to not have to read anything, but rather to not have to read so much right at the very start of the game when the emphasis should be more on gameplay and getting people hooked before they have to read so much. Have YOU read this thread? People are demanding exactly that, both ingame and in this thread even, to not have to read anything. The person now known as "the first impressionist" even obviously didn't want to read squat...so much so, he passed right over the very quests he was looking for even after clicking on them. In an online game where reading and clicking is necessary, how do you combat that? And once that is answered, how do you combat that without totally losing the integrity of the game for everyone else? Basically all that is being suggested is that the very start of the game be made more newbie friendly, aimed more at the average gamer in today's world. Once again (see numerous other posts on why this is pointless if your aim isn't actually to expand the playerbase). I fail to see why this is such an issue unless you are actually elitist and don't want certain types of people plaing the game but rather want only the people you approve of, in which case your opposition to this makes perfect sense and we finally have an answer to the major question.You sound like the first impressionist--making incorrect assumptions from nothing relevent. And EL will never be judged on EL alone; you think this game is magically seperated off from the rest of the world? Wish I got given that luxury when people look at what work i've done or accomplished and didn't compare it to anything that's ever been done by anyone else, would make me look alot better thats for sure!This isn't real life, it's a game. One game cannot please all people. The creators have to make some choices what direction they want to take. Oh and if you take suggestions and criticisms as trolling and insults then I am sorry for you, but will not stop posting. (For that reason anyway)Again making assumptions. I did not mean you, at least not with this thread. I was speaking in general terms over the life of the game and forums. Guilty conscience? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lexi Report post Posted September 1, 2010 (edited) I'd like to point out something, while it's not always the best thing to do, MOST people do learn things by trial and error, I know a LOT of people when they build something they don't read the instructions, perhaps games are the same way. I have learned how to function without manuals, cause lets face, I am a poor SoB that buys used games where the manuals are missing. So yeah... I understand the reading part, but don;t get upset if people want to try to "wing" it before looking it up, in fact that's normally what I try doing first, then I try to read up on the task I am trying to do if I can't do it, and if that don't work, there is always a friend... I was raised on learning without a tutor, because my teacher failed to teach me pass a certain point. So I am used to doing it this way. It's not a bad thing, but like many have mentioned, people are excited to play the game, a half hour- hour of reading is just not on their mind. Just for your FYI, I do read a lot, cause I am older and actually like the RP aspect of the quests. EDIT: I forgot to mention, I got to see the newbie quests on the pk server, and I think they are a lovely addition! I leveled pretty decently. Edited September 1, 2010 by Lexi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robb Report post Posted September 1, 2010 It was not meant to be a mind-numbing do-nothing-but-level-anyway game. But in my opinion, that is exactly what you have ended up with. EL is the biggest grind of any game I have ever played, and the only reason I ever came back from time to time, was the people. The game it's self can be extremely overwhelming to a new player (I know that steps have been made to fix this since I first joined, which is good). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizzy Report post Posted September 1, 2010 It was not meant to be a mind-numbing do-nothing-but-level-anyway game. But in my opinion, that is exactly what you have ended up with. EL is the biggest grind of any game I have ever played, and the only reason I ever came back from time to time, was the people. The game it's self can be extremely overwhelming to a new player (I know that steps have been made to fix this since I first joined, which is good). I hear this from a lot of people... I wonder why they didnt just call the game Lands of easy game. instead of Eternal Lands Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aislinn Report post Posted September 1, 2010 It was not meant to be a mind-numbing do-nothing-but-level-anyway game. But in my opinion, that is exactly what you have ended up with. EL is the biggest grind of any game I have ever played, and the only reason I ever came back from time to time, was the people. The game it's self can be extremely overwhelming to a new player (I know that steps have been made to fix this since I first joined, which is good). How exactly do you make an online game NOT involve "grinding" levels in some manner? (Not counting just roleplaying games). How else is there to go about it other than read, click, read and click some more? People have stated "EL is just about grinding levels" and yet...why is it worse here than WoW or Runescape or whatever game you choose (picked those because they have been mentioned already)? I think I should re-state what I meant in the sentence you quoted: I meant to say this: It was not meant to be a mind-numbing easy-set-it-and-forget-it-and-get-your-levels-with-no-effort-or-thought-or time-involved type of game. And why is it bad to have an "overwhelming" game for newbies? In my mind for a newbie, I see long-term goals, more things to do than I can count, and people to meet and friends to make that will actually be around for a bit because it IS involved and will take some time. Do newbies really want nothing other than to get the best stuff and win it in a day then move on? And if so, why do we want that? That isn't mmorpg-like at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lorlen Report post Posted September 1, 2010 (edited) Not going to quote it all because ite's ridiculous. 1) I'm suggestion that people read and click and level in the tutorial, where did you get the idea that I don't want that? :S 2) I know there was a newbie island. It was pretty confusing and basically pants, which was why people didn't want it. If you made a good one with good, simple instructions I'm sure people wouldn't mind so much. 3) Please direct me to the people who are saying they don't want to read anything, I'm having trouble locating those posts in this thread. And as for a solution which apparently escapes you: what do you normally do when there are 2 things that different people want and you have the option and resources to provide both? Put them both in maybe and let people choose? Radical idea man I know. 4) I'm making assumptions from what I read in this thread, nothing more and nothing less. Logically speaking, taking the evidence presented here, my arguments are sound. Sorry if this upsets you :/ 5) This doesn't make sense. I wasn't saying everyone had to be pleased, nor was I saying this was real life. I was providing a nice example to show you that EL will always be viewed against and compared to other mmorpg's out there if you're trying to entice in more players from the main mmo playerbase. Once again if this isn't your aim then it doesn't matter does it? 6) Heard of inference? Taken with your previous lovely post towards me what other conclusion could I come to other than that was directed at me? And no, no guilty conscience. Do you often get one for speaking your mind about this game then? * and to the above post: Ofcourse those games have grinding, but they disguise it well. It has been said on these forums before (not going to find it for you) that the best mmo's manage to mostly conceal the fact that you are grinding by making it more enjoyable, adding in quests, different monsters to kill and other fun things. EL attempts this by making you sit there training on the same mobs for months before you can move onto the next one, with the fighting being clicking on something and occasionally fleeing. Good effort. and what? No-one said it should be a game where you get everything nice and easily. No-one is really saying you should change the basic gameplay (some people are complaining about it sure, but not suggesting you change the whole game). People are suggesting you make the fucking tutorial more accessible. Why the hell are you so opposed to that? Give me 1 good reason other than you don't want the population of the game to grow. Edited September 1, 2010 by Lorlen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soul Report post Posted September 1, 2010 Look at World of Warcraft, the quests there take like 30 seconds to read, and at the end of each you even get a short review of whats the quest about, so you dont have to read the whole thing. Even so, players made the Quest-Helper, that shows the location of each monster you gotta kill, flower you have to pick, place you have to go etc., so they actually dont have to read anything. The daily quests are very short, dont require alot of reading, and I like that, why not make the tutorial like that, I dont think a novel is required to learn the basics of this game. Also, the interface is really old aswell, I mean, everything else in the game changed, why not change that too? Also, there are heaps of buttons there, I can't say I like that, why not focus more things, in just one button, that will pop a menu up when you press it, that way there will be less buttons, and will be easier to re-model it. Also, exclamation marks above the NPCs that give you quests would be really helpful, because nobody has the time nowdays to browse 200 NPCs to find a few quests, some people arent interested in role-playing. owell, just my 2 cents, I wont mention other things I dont like, cause those are more advanced things, and I wouldnt wanna get into that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zamirah Report post Posted September 1, 2010 It was not meant to be a mind-numbing do-nothing-but-level-anyway game. But in my opinion, that is exactly what you have ended up with. EL is the biggest grind of any game I have ever played, and the only reason I ever came back from time to time, was the people. Same here. The reason I play online games is that I don't need to read but there are other players I can ask - the chat. If I wanted to read would I take a book. The reason I play game is, to have luck, find nice items and it has become rare now. The few quests I did when I started back 13 March 2005 have I only done because another player took 3 or 4 of us newbies all the way to the end. The wine quest did I maybe 3 years ago - pnly because a friend did it and I was following. And I think I'm not the only who don't make quests because of too much reading. But chatting is easy in this game and you can play relaxed, drink coffee, watch news or whatever at the same time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hussam Report post Posted September 1, 2010 People should stop comparing EL to other games. EL is my first online game. I remember trying planeshift for a few minutes once. I never found EL to be too hard. But if people insist on comparing to other games, then there will always be something to complain about in EL. I don't think it is fair to compare EL to other games at least not to WoW because different people have different views and any scale or criteria of comparison will always be subjective. EL began with a Newbie Island that was mandatory. Players complained and wanted to get right into the game. It was removed, although I think it should be put back and not optional. Optional will just have the newbie "joe-pr0's" skipping it anyway, so we are right back where we started. I think this should be restored. It doesn't have to be big. Make it sort of similar to a 10 minute instance map where you get a task to kill a bunny, harvest ings for one FE, sell it to NPC and get detailed information about "how to buy sigils and cast magic spells". The current tutorial NPC system is perfect but it's not mandatory. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maxine Report post Posted September 1, 2010 (edited) ...I think EL could use a big 'tune up for the masses' in many areas, certainly with stuff related to that initial 15 mins for a new player. Cater for joe-nub; Put exclamation marks over the Tutorial NPC Have "(QUEST)" in bright green or yellow next to the parts of his dialogue that lead to starting quests Make him give some uber basic and immediately achievable quests (like "kill 4 brown rabbit and bring me their furs") that have decent rewards Change brownies and beavers so they're weak as piss and a person could kill heaps of anything on IP without dying (no one likes dying, even if they do just goto beam and don't drop, and making it so easy to die so early ain't good) ... See some suggestions I made in the suggestion thread. Whats the fun of finding quests if they are advertised with big billboards? With respect to the newbie tutorial quest, have you done it since the update? It is very much improved and well worth the time, even for a more experienced player. Lots of simple tasks that have good rewards in xp and some items. As part of revamped tutorial you also get introduced to Novac, Haidir and Xaquelina, as well as the Alchemy quest in DP. All appropriate for newbies, no need for billboards, just a little reading. Players dont start at a/d 4/4 anymore, but much higher (7/7), you can actually kill a few critters before you die, but if you dont bother to go back to the tutorial NPC for some free healing, you will keep dying, since you respawn with 5 hp. Edited September 1, 2010 by Maxine Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robb Report post Posted September 1, 2010 (edited) Yes, every MMO is pretty much a grind, that is true. However, in other games grinding consists of more than clicking on an enemy, and then occasionally having to heal yourself. I think that having a higher level of involvement makes the grind seem, I dunno, easier? One thing I like about EL is the crafting system, I like the fact there are stages to making items, but again, to get those items is a huge grind once again, adding the mini events has helped, but it still involves sitting in front of a piece of ore for hours on end. And in response to Wizzy, EL is an easy game to play, once you know what you are doing. So having the long lengths it takes to do everything doesn't make the game harder, it just makes the game consume more time. It's a time sink. Edited September 1, 2010 by Robb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites