Attacking PK'ers/PvP/FFers - Outlawry?

[conavar]

so don't be offended if someone is calling you an outlaw because you killed him without any reason in a PK map. You decided to do it so just assume it!

 

The actual act of PKing is not and never will be an outlaw act, players enter a pk map at there own risk and if they are attacked and killed without reason. it is there own fault for being there.

[Aislinn]

so don't be offended if someone is calling you an outlaw because you killed him without any reason in a PK map. You decided to do it so just assume it!

But you see...there IS a reason, by definition of a PK map. The reason is you walked into a PK map.

It is not outlaw to play the game you logged in to in the manner it was created to play in.

[Schmurk]

I think we don't have the same meaning of "outlaw". For me, outlaws are a part of the game. It's a game aspect! It's not pejorative!!! How can I say that more clearly?

I agree with people saying that they have the rights to attack people in a PK map because it's a game design. Did I say the contrary? I'm just saying that they are ways to do it and depending on that, it'll give a good or a bad image of you, nothing more...

[Aislinn]

I think we don't have the same meaning of "outlaw". For me.......

This is where this runs into a problem. If everybody is not on the same dictionary page, there will never be a meaningful discussion or resolution (if a resolution is really desired that is). Obviously the forum section was badly named since people are using different definitions. (No, I'm not looking for section name suggestions either )

[anima]

well for me the word killing in player killing makes it clear for me, killing=outlaw...

if i start with pk some day, i see myself as an outlaw too...

a duell between 2 people is another thing tho, but if u att somebody w/o asking and kill him/her, it makes u an outlaw imo, cuz if killing somebody doesnt makes u an outlaw, what makes u an outlaw then???

 

Flex

 

...snip

 

what makes you an outlaw is carrying out an action that a majority of the playing community find unacceptable, i cant imagine the majority of people agreeing that pking is outlawish, it is, as Aislinn said, a part of the game.

 

edit: missing commas

Edited May 13, 2008 by anima

[Entropy]

From the standpoint of a "hypothetical society", I can certainly see a justification for this sort of thinking.. after all, unless a state of war or whatnot is declared, and the attacking force is a representative of one of the warring parties attacking a member of the opposing faction, almost any society would construe the attack as an "attempt at murder".. and thus relegate the attacker to the position of an "outlaw".

 

Yes, I agree with you, but in this society, going on a PKing area is an implicit declaration of war to everyone around you that is not part of your guild or an allied guild.

[flexus]

i have one question to all those saying u cant call a pker outlaw...

do u call a bagjumper outlaw? i think most will agree on it....

BUT radu gives u the possibility to bj like he gives u the possibility to pk, i think nothing to argue about so far...

i think u call somebody bj's u an outlaw cuz u loose items, but u loose items too if u get pked...

and i think u call somebody bj's u an outlaw cuz stealing is a no go in RL, but killing somebody else is an even bigger no go in RL...

now to those wanna say u enter pk at ur own risk blablabla, u work on bags also on ur own risk, so calling someone steals from u outlaw but dont call a person kills u an outlaw is just unlogical imo.

i want to say again, this is a role play game, where u can choose to play different roles, some "good" some "bad", but at least this is still a game and i dont jugde somebody cuz of his way of playing this game... i prefer building my opinions based on the stuff ppl are saying tho...

of course i dont want now every pker listed in "whinners forum" cuz all players should know, players are in pk to kill other players and u will get attacked/killed...

i think most pkers refuse to accept being called outlaw cuz they dont want the same title like scammers and bagjumpers... but u choosed to do things, that can spoil the fun of others, so live with being called outlaw... like the ones choosed to enter pk, working on bags, whatever gives "outlaws" the opportunity to rip u, must live with their loss...

imo maybe its best to close the outlaw forums to get rid of tons of spam, accept all possibilitys how to play that game

(theres always the possiblity to put a bounty on some pker killed u while pvp for example ), accept ur role u get with certain actions u make

(try to understand that also if a peacefull hydro harver know the risk of pk, u are still an outlaw/baddude to her/him if u attack/kill her/him but instead of whining around the one got pked should also live with it CUZ he knew all the risk), make a new game rule: "dont whine around" and just play the game

 

 

Yes, I agree with you, but in this society, going on a PKing area is an implicit declaration of war to everyone around you that is not part of your guild or an allied guild.

 

even though if you go there to harvest hydro?

 

what makes you an outlaw is carrying out an action that a majority of the playing community find unacceptable, i cant imagine the majority of people agreeing that pking is outlawish, it is, as Aislinn said, a part of the game.

 

edit: missing commas

like bagjumping is part of the game and i bet u call a bagjumper outlaw

Edited May 13, 2008 by flexus

[XaRondas]

Most thread at outlaw's forum is from ppl that have a/d 35-60s and it was the first time that went to

pvp. It s really the community/guild 's fault that it hasn t been explained to them how pk/pvp works.

Really post like someone talked me into pvp and i died or i went to pvp at nca and someone attacked me and died , are really funny

 

Unfortunatelly PK has been deamonised, so for most ppl pking of behavior is unacceptable

 

Another thing that has to be mention is that 99% pkers follow the "community" rule not to attack hydro harvesters (then pkers are fine ppl), yet again ppl don t appriciate pkers

 

imho this should work otherwise (so harvester maybe sometime ask the help of a pker to escort them to hydro, more action, more constructive guild structure that way but its another topic)

 

Anyway

1. Instructe better your new members about pk/pvp

2. Remember that pk is not outlaw --> there is a note when u enter an area

3. Entering a pk map means action of war doesn t really matter if u are harvester/a-d trainor/exploring of whatever

4. Remember its a game

5. Dung sometimes happens

 

Have fun

Xarondas

Edited May 13, 2008 by draugluin1

[peino]

Which is *exactly* what outlawry is.. the violation of a social standard. Just because the *game* allows it, doesn't necessarily mean its socially "ok". Confusing the two standards doesn't nullify the argument.

The specific action in question, in the title of this thread ("Attacking PK'ers/PvP/FFers - Outlawry?"), doesn't violate my personal standards, to me, people being attacked in PK areas is exactly what should be happening.

So, who does everyone think should decide what is a violation of social standard?

Society decides what the social standard is and what things violate the standard.

 

That means that each person will have their own idea of what is outlaw and what isn't, and they will post that in the Outlaws forum, and everybody else who cares will read it and make up their own minds and post their opinions.

 

If the majority of people think it is okay, then it is not outlaw, and the person who thinks otherwise has to accept defeat on that point.

 

If the majority of the people agree that it is outlaw, then it is outlaw, and the person who thinks it should be okay is the one who has to accept defeat on that score.

 

It doesn't matter what one person's opinion is in deciding what violates the social standard. It's a social standard if the majority accept it, and an action is outlaw if the majority say it is.

[LeoI]

lol whiners forum

 

i only think its an outlawish act if they pull a weap during pvp (or something similar), but its still pk area and you get the warning when you enter the arena or map. its hard to find ppl to pk at times so take whatever you can get i suppose

[Aislinn]

It's a social standard if the majority accept it, and an action is outlaw if the majority say it is.

A couple issues with this:

1. Majority of what? The loud vocal complainers? The forum go-ers? The entire game population (not accurately represented in forums, let alone the one section in question)? How do you KNOW what the majority IS in this EL society?

2. Definition of "outlaw" again. Too many different ones being tossed around. Social standard? Are you referring to the laws (indirectly "by the people" since elected officials representing the people make and enforce them)? Morality?

[larrystorch]

1. Instruct better your new members about pk/pvp

If you see someone that isn't tagged allied or non-attack, expect the possibility that you will be attacked. Besides that, PK is part of the game, if you dont want to die, become pr0 like toomass, etc or don't enter a pk maps!

 

2. Remember that pk is not outlaw --> there is a note when u enter an area

PK is part of the game, if you dont want to die, become pr0 like toomass, etc or don't enter a pk maps!

 

3. Entering a pk map means action of war doesn t really matter if u are harvester/a-d trainor/exploring of whatever

PK is part of the game, if you dont want to die, become pr0 like toomass, etc or don't enter a pk maps!

 

 

4. Remember its a game

PK is part of the game, if you dont want to die, become pr0 like toomass, etc or don't enter a pk maps!

 

5. Dung sometimes happens

PK is part of the game, if you dont want to die, become pr0 like toomass, etc or don't enter a pk maps!

[peino]

analized step by step by Peino above

 

Uhmmmm....

 

I think if I had really done that, this debate would be over. :P

[robotbob]

I think that 2 things have to be defined here. First it's the meaning of the term outlaw and for me the definition is something like: if you do any harm to someone without his approval, then you're an outlaw.

So if you attack someone in a PK map without any reason, then consider yourself as an outlaw.

 

The second thing that should be defined is what should be posted in the outlaw forum. I agree that it's quite ridiculous to whine or just to warn people of some guy that killed you while you were crossing a PK map. Well, if you go in a PK map, you have a lot of chances to be attacked so live with it.

Now there are some exceptions that should interest other people like for example the pr0 outlaws that have some stalking techniques to kill people when they just want to PvP. Or bad PvP partners, etc...

 

I have a problem with "labeling" and using "labeling as a means of coercion; Social Deviance".

I do love the new name for the forum , it totally removes this as a tool for player labeling and coercion.

In reply to the bold\quote statement, the reason is:

 

They are in a pk map. Lets call it player combat map instead. If you wish to avoid player combat, leave the map.

Its a player combat area, by entering the map you have agreed to engage in player combat.

 

The LAW of the pk map is kill, run or be killed, how does this violate 'the law' of this map? I am lost on how this violates 'unwritten community rules'

when easily over half the game disagrees. The games community does not consist of a handful of peaceniks confused between reality and a game.

The notion that a player needs to be warned "look out just for this guy whilst in a player combat map" is beyond silly, assuming everyone else

will say "Hello stranger, may I partake in combat with you?"

 

{I saw Aislinn's reply before I hit submit and she said it better }

 

It's a social standard if the majority accept it, and an action is outlaw if the majority say it is.

A couple issues with this:

1. Majority of what? The loud vocal complainers? The forum go-ers? The entire game population (not accurately represented in forums, let alone the one section in question)? How do you KNOW what the majority IS in this EL society?

2. Definition of "outlaw" again. Too many different ones being tossed around. Social standard? Are you referring to the laws (indirectly "by the people" since elected officials representing the people make and enforce them)? Morality?

 

I still cannot get beyond the fact the most vocal complainers about player combat, don't normally spend a significant percentage of

their game play time engage in this activity. Just mainly afk harvesting and forum trolling.

 

(P.S.)

I do think somehow we have got EL's player combat mixed up with the original pking of Diablo.

[Vanyel]

It's a social standard if the majority accept it, and an action is outlaw if the majority say it is.

A couple issues with this:

1. Majority of what? The loud vocal complainers? The forum go-ers? The entire game population (not accurately represented in forums, let alone the one section in question)? How do you KNOW what the majority IS in this EL society?

2. Definition of "outlaw" again. Too many different ones being tossed around. Social standard? Are you referring to the laws (indirectly "by the people" since elected officials representing the people make and enforce them)? Morality?

 

Yay, we strayed to my favourite topic.

Guys, people in forums are NOT majority of game players. These are people speaking English at the level effiecient enough to go through forums and post from time to time, of course, if they can be arsed to do it. By any definition it is not majority.

 

The loudly announced community laws. Either I'm not a member of this community or I somebody forgot to ask me about my opinion I never agreed on these or other 'community laws'. So, stop abusing this phrase, please.

[peino]

It's a social standard if the majority accept it, and an action is outlaw if the majority say it is.

A couple issues with this:

1. Majority of what? The loud vocal complainers? The forum go-ers? The entire game population (not accurately represented in forums, let alone the one section in question)? How do you KNOW what the majority IS in this EL society?

How do you know what the majority is in a democratic society where only ~30% of eligible voters actually vote? Yet we don't see public offices going empty because of low voter turnout.

 

So, yeah, the "majority" opinion may actually decided by a minority, but if there really is a majority out there who don't like it, there's nothing stopping them from opening their mouths about it, is there?

 

Silence is consent, as my high school civics teacher used to say. If the REAL majority says nothing about the community standards, then they are de facto consenting to them, agreeing with them. If not, let them get on the forum and speak up. But, yeah, in practice, the decisions get made by the people who actually show up to make them.

 

2. Definition of "outlaw" again. Too many different ones being tossed around. Social standard? Are you referring to the laws (indirectly "by the people" since elected officials representing the people make and enforce them)? Morality?

In reference to EL, I am referring to a notion of "morality," not to "law."

 

"Law" would be the game rules, and they are administered by the admins. EL is a designed world where bad things are allowed to happen, within certain limits. Nobody is allowed to use hate speech or harrass people, but they are allowed to kill characters, steal/break their stuff, and do tons of other things that might not be fun or pleasant, because the EL game desires the drama of conflict. Radu has decided that there will be room in EL for "criminal" behavior, and that is why we can do all these things that some people don't like.

 

"Morality" would refer to a second standard, one which is not as strong or clear as the game rules. That is the community standard that develops among the players interacting with each other, socially. It's a kind of unwritten social agreement of how the majority of people treat each other and expect to be treated by others in this game. It has nothing to do with the rules of the game. It is about the attitudes people take towards each other.

 

In EL, when people do things that are considered socially bad, they are called "outlaw." I agree that this is possibly not the best term to use, but there it is.

 

So in EL, outlaws don't break the game rules. They are technically allowed to do what they do, but that doesn't mean that other people have to like it or even tolerate it. In RL, I might be allowed under the law to play my stereo at top volume out my windows all day long from 9AM to 10PM every single day, but if I do that, I will be annoying my neighbors, and they won't like it. And if they report to other people that I do that kind of thing, and call me a bad neighbor -- or an "outlaw", in EL jargon -- then so what? They're right, aren't they? That kind of action does make it harder for them to enjoy their lives in the neighborhood, just like outlaw action makes it harder for other people to enjoy life in EL. If I don't like having that bad reputation, the easy solution is to turn down the volume for their sake. But if I really want to blast that music, then I can do it and take whatever consequences come from angering my neighbors. If a person doesn't want to be called outlaw, let them avoid doing what the community considers outlaw. But if they really want to do it, then let them do it, and take what comes with it.

 

And if some of them claim that they don't care what the community thinks of them, then let them quit complaining about being complained about.

 

 

EDIT: It's adorable that the name of Outlaws has been changed to Whiner's Forum. As far as I'm concerned, that ends this whole conversation because it makes it the official position of EL's admins that the player community can go fuck itself, and that people being pricks to each other is what EL wants to see happening. With that in mind, I'll bow out of this discussion now.

Edited May 13, 2008 by peino

[conavar]

@ Peino

 

well since I would say the phantom majority of EL players dont think pking is an outlaw act ( only the ones who dont like being pked on a pk map ) its a mute point.

 

So no . pkers shouldnt be posted on outlaws for doing what the game intends them to do... or maybe I can post a harver on forums for jumping my lupine bush

 

Edit:

 

I bet the ones who moan about being PKed on a PK map are the ones who would run into a Tigers cage and then whinge that it attacked them

 

People know the risks, if you are not prepared for the outcome of them risks. then seriously dont take them, just dont moan about it after the fact

Edited May 13, 2008 by conavar

[peino]

@ Peino

 

well since I would say the phantom majority of EL players dont think pking is an outlaw act ( only the ones who dont like being pked on a pk map ) its a mute point.

 

So no . pkers shouldnt be posted on outlaws for doing what the game intends them to do... or maybe I can post a harver on forums for jumping my lupine bush

Moot* point. (spelling)

 

And if you think that is what I was talking about, then you missed the point entirely. Anyway, the admins have made it clear that they have no interest in the social dynamic of the player community, so as far as I'm concerned this entire thread is moot. I've said enough. 'Bye.

[robotbob]

Silence is consent, as my high school civics teacher used to say. If the REAL majority says nothing about the community standards, then they are de facto consenting to them, agreeing with them. If not, let them get on the forum and speak up. But, yeah, in practice, the decisions get made by the people who actually show up to make them.

 

Yes their silence is the fact they don't speak\read English well enough to pour through pages of alleged community rules.

 

So I'll label you as a language based racist. [is not meant to be a personal attack, just an example of labeling ]

 

official position of EL's admins that the player community can go fuck itself

 

Are we, that disagree with peino, not part of the 'player community', or just anti-player combat faction = player community?

 

edit=typos

Edited May 13, 2008 by robotbob

[Aislinn]

Silence is consent, as my high school civics teacher used to say. If the REAL majority says nothing about the community standards, then they are de facto consenting to them, agreeing with them. If not, let them get on the forum and speak up. But, yeah, in practice, the decisions get made by the people who actually show up to make them.

These are not laws or game rules though, it is nothing more than preaching one brand of morality and claiming everyone must live by your version or they are "outlaws". So a lack of "voting", or silence, does not mean these people agree. They are not required to follow your standards, you are not the game creator. If they disagree with you and are silent, it just means your standards have no bearing on their lives and they have better things to do than post/complain/vote about it.

 

So in EL, outlaws don't break the game rules. They are technically allowed to do what they do, but that doesn't mean that other people have to like it or even tolerate it. In RL, I might be allowed under the law to play my stereo at top volume out my windows all day long from 9AM to 10PM every single day, but if I do that, I will be annoying my neighbors, and they won't like it. And if they report to other people that I do that kind of thing, and call me a bad neighbor -- or an "outlaw", in EL jargon -- then so what? They're right, aren't they? That kind of action does make it harder for them to enjoy their lives in the neighborhood, just like outlaw action makes it harder for other people to enjoy life in EL. If I don't like having that bad reputation, the easy solution is to turn down the volume for their sake. But if I really want to blast that music, then I can do it and take whatever consequences come from angering my neighbors. If a person doesn't want to be called outlaw, let them avoid doing what the community considers outlaw. But if they really want to do it, then let them do it, and take what comes with it.

I don't find this analogy to be a very good one. Pker's do not play their loud music in your neighborhood. You are following them into THEIR neighborhood. If that neighborhood is designated to be a LOUD MUSIC neighborhood ahead of time, you have no right to complain or call names or judge them on their lack of "morality". Going into this area thinking you can change their behavior is rather silly since they are containing their behavior within their own neighborhood. Meanwhile they are leaving your neighborhood alone.

 

EDIT: It's adorable that the name of Outlaws has been changed to Whiner's Forum. As far as I'm concerned, that ends this whole conversation because it makes it the official position of EL's admins that the player community can go fuck itself, and that people being pricks to each other is what EL wants to see happening. With that in mind, I'll bow out of this discussion now.

Oh I care greatly about the EL community. It has many facets and I've seen it through almost 4 and a half years of dynamic change. This game is made to appeal to a variety of players, including PKers. To label and insult them like has been happening lately is just beyond ridiculous. No, I am not a pker, don't plan on becoming one although I have learned to never say never, but some of my best friends have been and are PKers. The game was made for everyone. I will defend that.

 

Edit after seeing conavar's post: Yes, this is my personal opinon, it does not fall under game rules so obviously has nothing to do with Admin status.

[conavar]

. Anyway, the admins have made it clear that they have no interest in the social dynamic of the player community,

 

So Aislinn isnt allowed her own personal views ? anything she says is from her Admin stance ? TBH to put it bluntly that is a load of bollocks.

 

Aislinn is a player just the same as we all are and is entitled to her own NON Admin views. all because it says Admin under her name dont take it that it is the Games official stance (unless she says it is )

Edited May 13, 2008 by conavar

[SolarStar]

If I may give my personal oppinion to this:

"When 2 player pvp and a third one attacks (earlier beeing invisible) I find this behaviour without honor."

 

It is not outlawed to do it for these reasons:

 

1) It is not in the official rules and

2) the third player did not break any agreement that was made (because he can not know it!)

(however, if you are experienced you can differ between ppl pk'ing and pvp, so don't say you didn't know)

alternative: (here comes the tricky part, because you must read Player C's mind or have other evidence)

 

What if he does know ? what if he was send from player A or B that are in pvp ? (to make it look like legal)

..well most el player would agree that s/he is guilty in this case.

[peino]

Silence is consent, as my high school civics teacher used to say. If the REAL majority says nothing about the community standards, then they are de facto consenting to them, agreeing with them. If not, let them get on the forum and speak up. But, yeah, in practice, the decisions get made by the people who actually show up to make them.

 

Yes their silence is the fact they don't speak\read English well enough to pour through pages of alleged community rules.

 

So I'll label you as a language based racist. [is not meant to be a personal attack, just an example of labeling ]

 

official position of EL's admins that the player community can go fuck itself

 

Are we, that disagree with peino, not part of the 'player community', or just anti-player combat faction = player community?

 

edit=typos

OK, I said I was bowing out, but people just now decide to start addressing me directly, and I feel like I have to respond. And frankly, I'm starting to get a tiny bit pissed off, personally.

 

Why? Because people are starting trot out their strawmen to prop up on me. I really hate it when people try to force me to defend an argument I never made.

 

TO ROBOTBOB:

 

-- About language: Welcome to the global village. It's not my fault Radu has a game with English as its official language. You want multi-lingual forums, take it up with him. I'd have no problem with it. The more, the merrier. In the meantime, what little I can follow of the other language chat channels leads me to believe that non-English-speaking players are perfectly well aware of what the EL standards, trends and controversies are, and are perfectly able to find some way to get their opinions heard in the main forums. They do it plenty of times.

 

-- About factions: Where did I say anything about anyone being "anti-combat"? Where did I say anything that equates combat/PK with outlaw action? Kindly read my posts and quote me saying PK = outlaw. What I actually said is that lying and breaking agreements = outlaw. Not PK.

 

-- About people disagreeing with me: Where did I say what is right or not right for anyone but me to do? I have only talked about how community standards work. I have not even said specifically what the community standards are. I have given my own opinion about what I personally consider outlaw, but I said nothing at all about what the community thinks. I only said that those members of the community who speak up are the ones who decide what the standards are, and that people who violate the standards get the reputation that comes with that, whether they like it or not. That's a simple statement of fact. It doesn't say that I think the standards are necessarily right or wrong.

 

TO CONAVAR: I never said anything about PK being an outlaw action.

 

So if you all want this to devolve into another round of PKers versus anti-PKers, go ahead, but don't try to pin the anti-PK argument on me. I never said it. Just leave me out of that action, please. Thanks. 'Bye now.

 

EDIT: I stand by my comment about the change of the forum title. I consider it an insulting and borderline hostile expression by a person who has more authority in the game than I do. That is my opinion of the action, and if Aislinn is the one who did it, then that is my opinion of her action.

Edited May 13, 2008 by peino

[molime]

I've always considered outlaws forum mostly a place to warn others about certain behaviour. As has been said in this topic, not everyone will attack pvp'ers, or merc runners, or hydro runners, or (fill in). It's just good to know when you're relatively safe when you see someone approach, or best to leave the area right away. I think what is or isn't considered 'outlaw' in the sense of this forum, is a matter of personal opinion. I don't think it matters if it's a 'majority' of the community who thinks a certain way. People with similar opinions will agree, feel warned, great, over and done with and move on.

 

Just as much as 'PK is PK' and PKers have the 'right' to kill others on PK maps, do others imo have the 'right' to give out a warning. I think it is grossly unfair and offensive to all of a sudden change the name of the outlaws forum to 'whiners forum'. Is everyone who ever posted here (yes, me as well) to warn others someone might attack you during PVP, or might jump your bag if you hit that telenexus, suddenly a whiner? Sorry to say it, but I really think this is a ridiculous and immature act.

 

Yes, PK is PK and 'don't complain when you get PKed in a PK map'. But sometimes I'm really getting sick and tired of the whining and complaining about the complaining too. Want to PK? Go ahead, it's part of the game. But don't be shocked when people don't like it either. It goes both ways.

 

And conavar: changing a subforum name goes imo beyond having a personal opinion as player.

[Entropy]

EDIT: It's adorable that the name of Outlaws has been changed to Whiner's Forum. As far as I'm concerned, that ends this whole conversation because it makes it the official position of EL's admins that the player community can go fuck itself, and that people being pricks to each other is what EL wants to see happening. With that in mind, I'll bow out of this discussion now.

 

Are you fucking kidding me?

Do you expect the admins to hold the player's wiener when they pee?

 

even though if you go there to harvest hydro?

 

Especially if you go to harvest hydro.