Lets start fixing the economy system

[maximos]

fix the economy system? it is broke? afaik you can level any skill while making money at it, you only need to invest some first

[Mireille]

fix the economy system? it is broke? afaik you can level any skill while making money at it, you only need to invest some first

 

I've been playing this game for some 2,5 years, I don't know. As far as I remember, the "something is wrong with the economy" threads kept returning on a regular basis and they've always had many messages and views. That's the best proof that something IS wrong with it after all.

Edited January 3, 2007 by Mireille

[Zanadu]

I haven't been playing the game lately-- whether or not that makes my opinions invalid or not is beside the point. (Irony is I was coming to the forum to figure out why I was having trouble installing the new client )

 

With all due respect, I think that the developers put together a very unique game. Exceptional moderation to the point its borderline overly moderated. Aside from this strange problem I am having updating the new patch, I would say that every update has been smooth as silk. Better than games you pay for. I've never encountered down time longer than a few minutes. Is the game perfect? No. Not going to find a game that is completely perfect. Most likely why gaming is big business, lol. Also, the game has a very wonderful community. To the point that some are -too- nice. And that -too nice- sentiment is where the problem lies.

 

The arguement of you should not expect to make profit in crafting items (not singling crafting skill, but alch, manu, potting, etc.) is perhaps the one thing that I disagree with most. In fact, that was the last straw for me. I clocked myself being able to farm lupines faster than I could make anything from scratch. Why on earth should I lose money selling something to someone else?! My time is as valuable as the next guy. Why should I put 20 nexus into my character when someone can farm lupine with no skill and make more profit? The arguement of "more education and more experience" and you can make more profit later is moot. The noob spinning out fire essence is most likely making more potential profit than the guy spinning bars. And then we go full circle and state that the reward is the experience. That reward generally only leans towards those who are aiming to see their name on the top of the page. I will admit that I am not used to games that do not have some sort of a cap or a sense of supply and demand. However that, in itself, is what makes the game quite unique and also frustrates me as well.

 

Potions, for example: Only so many can be consumed at any given time. Vials became available via the npc and many flooded to the potioning skill. Customers had absolutely no problem with the price before. It went down a few gc and the customers were happy and buying and consuming even more potions. Still, steady profit on making potions. Then oops, a potioner just made 1k sr and goes to market looking to sell. Ok, so the guy doesn't get any pm on anyone wanting to buy. Rather than being business savvy and thinking 'oh, i guess noone needs any potions right now...' he lowers the price. How low do you have to make the price? If -noone needs- potions right then... hold them until someone does. The price isnt going to change the demand.

 

But, no.. that guy wants the quick sale.. the other guy like Ralloz wants to be like number one potioner. (Dont mean to call you out, but its true) so he doesn't care how low he puts the price because he has no care what so ever if he makes profit or not. His main goal is to not lose money. And guess what?! At his level he doesnt have to account for fails or anything that a rising potioner might have.

 

Players like myself then suffer. Not only do we suffer we are generally labeled as greedy. Usually greedy if we just simply dont want to lose money to make something for someone else. God help us if we expect to some how make a profit so that we can buy something from someone else. The person with absolutely no value in money is just as greedy as I could ever be especially if they are only intending to raise their name on a web page. /end rant. And like this game is for Ent, to most high level mixers it becomes their hobby to be the highest leveled of thier "proffession". And thats how I look at mixing skills: profession. Which is generally what it is in most other games, and alas that is why there is such division. Time is money, end of story. If it were not everyone would make their own pots including fighters.

 

In fact, there goes full circle.. if the guy crafting rings cannot make money crafting his rings.. he can't buy potions from the person making potions so thus has to make them him/herself. I logged in one day just wanting to mana burn. To do so I would need to go farm diamonds, flowers, silver. mix them into essence. Ok, got that done.. then I needed magic potions.... gather the stuff for that find someone who could make... and by the time all that was done.. there wasnt even time left to mana burn. Why do you have to go through all those steps? Cause if you cant make profit you have no other choice. But wait! A trip to the lupines bush and I can make the gc to buy all that in much less time...... moral of the story all the time invested in skill is a waste aside from the higher emu aspect, but even that is questionable when you consider the potential exp in fighting. People say that harvesting is boring, I ask how is mixing not? Too much work for a "fighting game" imho. Takes far longer to make an item than to consume it. i.e. the busted ti plate in a few hours of use. There is much need for a solution outside of the easiest of buying rare items from the game store to resell to other players.

 

 

And blee-- with all due respect, it would be nice if you could be able to make a profit on a book drop. But, like everything else there is infinate supply. You can barely give monster drop books away. We all know which monster drops hold any chance of profit and even then it barely breaks even at the end.

 

LadyReni: As much as I agree with your intentions, I have to agree with Mire on many points. Where as I might be willing to make something for a friend/guildie for free I would not wish to extend that to everyone always, especially with which I consider to be mundane.

 

To Ent: Please do not take my words as offensive, as thats not truly my intent. There is a lot of heart and talent invested into this game, but being a beta I offer my words to you to do with what you will. I haven't had the chance to check out the newest changes in the game, but so far it seems the game gets better each update. However, an update in the economy system is something worthy of consideration and you might find that it appleases the less vocal masses who either fear you or are not willing to take the time to state so. I'd offer suggestions, however I am not too sure you would even wish to hear them.

[Cyprom]

I haven't read the entire thread. Stopped when it became a battle

IMO you always make money. You make a char and what do you have? Nothing, except for OA 5 and 3/3 A/D.

What do I have now? This! + alot of expensive items in my storage. I am quite wealthy and I have decent levels. Though I started with nothing, and most of the time, I give stuff away in contests, or I just chat and waste my time

Btw, I'm antisocial, so it's not like I harvest flowers for money... And to go back to the Tin Ore, I got 100 of it in storage now. I made 100 iron swords. The same for copper, also go 100 of it. It would've been more profitable if I sold the bars and essences, and then bought the swords. But I got experience, and didn't have to look for someone who wanted to buy/sell.

Complain all you want, but I started with nothing, and now I got lots. Doesn't matter if I could've had even more if there were a couple changes in the 'system'.

 

PS: I don't know a thing about economy, I don't really care. I play a game.

 

-- Cyp

[RallosZek]

Yup, most people here look at stuff they learned in school and demand that things learned there are applied in el, yet forget that earth's economy thrives mostly on credit, something (thank god) isn't available easy here

 

The only flowers I sold to shop was 80 lilacs to pay for leather gloves at blacksmith, never had more then 200k gc in storage and that's only as of recent, cause I started taking large orders. Yet, I have 9 free storage slots, decent levels and a neg perk since oa8 most people recommend against. What economy?

[Jarld]

I don't understand why lots of people see EL as a "fighting game". It's much more than a fighting game!

 

When I started playing EL, I wanted to become a manufacturer. Actually, I chose to play EL because the manufacturing skill is there. And I enjoy manufacturing. Hmm, being in top 50 too, but that's not the most important. Money is not a goal for me, it's a means to manufacture better stuff, buy buying books.

 

Someone said that there've been lots of complaints about the economy in the past, but EL is still here: doesn't that mean its economy is not so bad?

Of course i'd like to buy all ingredients and make profit by selling armors and weapons. Instead of that I gather some ingredients myself, buy some others, and make some profit in the end.

By the way, wouldn't you find boring to always practice only one skill?

 

And don't forget the "social" aspect of the game. While harvesting, your hands are free, you can talk to other people, make friends, have fun with your guild members...

[Ornitorrinco]

When I was playing EL, at a certain point I made a char that I wanted to use for fighting ONLY. Having tried the other skills with other chars, I didn't really like them. The problem is: if I don't want to level potion and alchemy, I have to buy my HEs and SRs.

 

The cheapest deal I could get was: give the ingredients to my guildmates, they would make the items for EXP and give me for free. In some cases this requires harvesting of items I couldn't harvest myself because of lack of nexus. So I'd have to buy the ingreds. Without money to buy them, my only option was harvesting flowers.

 

So, no matter if I dislike harvesting or not: If I'm a newb and want to pay for a training session, I need to harvest periodically. You could get some money from selling furs and bones, but not enough to pay for periodic training sessions.

 

The only workaround I could think of was: get all neg perks, get a extra PPs from harvesting, invest all PPs in vitality. I'd get so little damage that I could keep fighting monsters at my level or just a litttle lower without needing equipment.

 

http://game.eternal-lands.com/view_user.php?user=tutu

 

That's why I have a/d 48/71 with magic 4! P/C 6/4.

 

When I quit the game, I was fighting male orcs, almost good enough for ogres. Not too bad for the a/d and with NO need to spend money at all. That was the only way I could figure to avoi the activities I find boring.

Edited January 3, 2007 by Ornitorrinco

[sithicus]

If the new armors are in high demand, tin and copper ore will be priced well.

 

The problem in the economy of EL exists for items that have no demand, or NPC buyer. For things that are going to be used and broken a lot, the economy works.

 

If there is high demand for a bronze armor and the price for tin is way too low, then you can find yourself a manuer who will make the armors for ingredients + gold and get very rich. The prices will eventually stabilize as well. Of course some idiots will offer 150gc for iron swords at a max because that is what they used to pay last month, but they are not the ones who are going to make money in the next few weeks. Probably the swords will be bought at NPC for 250 in mass quantities anyway, since iron and steel are worth much more if you use it to make hydro bars.

 

Lets see if the portland increases the price for iron swords, and what the new price for bronze armor will be, only then can tin and copper be rated at a fair price.

 

There is only an economic problem for items that have no reasonable demand.

[smalul]

I don't understand why lots of people see EL as a "fighting game". It's much more than a fighting game!

 

When I started playing EL, I wanted to become a manufacturer. Actually, I chose to play EL because the manufacturing skill is there. And I enjoy manufacturing. Hmm, being in top 50 too, but that's not the most important. Money is not a goal for me, it's a means to manufacture better stuff, buy buying books.

This is a fighting game because there are no items to support other skills other than attack and defense (well, you get 1 potion per skill, and maybe 2-3 cloaks, but that's it).

 

I too play this game as a manufacturer, but don't you agree you need a lot of books to be a manufacturer? And those books cost money, a lot of money. Also - because the way items are priced in the market, in order to make a profit, you must get all the basic ingredients yourself, and for each you need at least one book, so that means you need even more money, and you need to train your harvesting and alchemy skills as well, because you can't buy those items from other players or NPCs, and make any profit. No profit = no money = no books = no advancement...

[Mireille]

I don't understand why lots of people see EL as a "fighting game". It's much more than a fighting game!

 

When I started playing EL, I wanted to become a manufacturer. Actually, I chose to play EL because the manufacturing skill is there. And I enjoy manufacturing. Hmm, being in top 50 too, but that's not the most important. Money is not a goal for me, it's a means to manufacture better stuff, buy buying books.

This is a fighting game because there are no items to support other skills other than attack and defense (well, you get 1 potion per skill, and maybe 2-3 cloaks, but that's it).

 

Well said. Currently, fighters are the final consumers of the entire EL chain of production. Or most of it, at least.

[Darc0]

When things that are used to level also make money, then you don't have much money leaving the economy and the things that are hard to come by start shooting up in price (inflation). Currently, for most people, you can EITHER make money OR gain XP. That creates a decent balance that helps stabilize prices overall.

 

Also, there are other consumers in the chain of production, depending on the skills. For example, fighters get little directly from Harvesters, and not much more directly from Alchemists. Summoners are also usually an end consumer of many things.

 

If you view the game as built entirely to support fighters, then there would be no reason for the other skills to exist, everything should come directly from NPCs for the fighters. I personally like the balance, and don't tend to buy OR sell much to/from other players, and as a result don't do much in the way of harvesting lupines or lilacs for the flower shops.

[Entropy]

This is a fighting game because there are no items to support other skills other than attack and defense (well, you get 1 potion per skill, and maybe 2-3 cloaks, but that's it).

 

That will change soon, there are already some plans to make a new item for harvesters, and eventually there will be some new items for other skills as well.

And later on, when we do the player cities, the goals will change again too.

[RallosZek]

I don't understand why lots of people see EL as a "fighting game". It's much more than a fighting game!

 

When I started playing EL, I wanted to become a manufacturer. Actually, I chose to play EL because the manufacturing skill is there. And I enjoy manufacturing. Hmm, being in top 50 too, but that's not the most important. Money is not a goal for me, it's a means to manufacture better stuff, buy buying books.

This is a fighting game because there are no items to support other skills other than attack and defense (well, you get 1 potion per skill, and maybe 2-3 cloaks, but that's it).

 

Well said. Currently, fighters are the final consumers of the entire EL chain of production. Or most of it, at least.

 

Nuu nuu, I only train a/d to get pp's for carry and will. So fighting supports my other skills, not the other way around.

[smalul]

That will change soon, there are already some plans to make a new item for harvesters, and eventually there will be some new items for other skills as well.

And later on, when we do the player cities, the goals will change again too.

WOW, those are big news - having items to support other skills would be great. I don't know what item you could make to improve harvesting, as there is already the excavator cloak, which gives 2 items per 1 harvest cycle, but I guess we'll find out soon.

I personally hope there would be items which would make the manufacturing skills (manufacture, alchemy, potions and crafting) better, something like a workbench which would reduce the fail rate, unique tools to fix damaged items, items which would raise the chance of making a rare item (like enriched essence or modable swords), or even items which would give a little extra exp while making something. Such items would allow players, who want it, to never fight, but to focus on other skills and level up and make profit out of them.

 

About the players' cities - didn't you say the plan was to make like 2 different games on 2 different worlds, and you won't be able to even switch items between those worlds (maybe just the money)?

 

 

When things that are used to level also make money, then you don't have much money leaving the economy and the things that are hard to come by start shooting up in price (inflation). Currently, for most people, you can EITHER make money OR gain XP. That creates a decent balance that helps stabilize prices overall.

The problem is that 1. You can't make money from many items. 2. You need most of the money to improve your character (like buy books).

 

 

Also, there are other consumers in the chain of production, depending on the skills. For example, fighters get little directly from Harvesters, and not much more directly from Alchemists. Summoners are also usually an end consumer of many things.

But everything in the game is currently meant to serve fighters only - look at all the items in the encyclopedia - everything is designed to help fighters (everything is either weapons, armors, or is meant to become weapons and armors). Oh and summoning is a fighting skills - you summon animals to fight for you...

[redsoxlovr10]

The day that an iron sword sells for 100k gc will be the day that there is something wrong with the economy, right now, r u seriously so deprived from gc that your not even enjoying the game???

 

1.) its a game

 

2.) its supposed to be fun no matter what you do

 

3.) stop being stubburn and experience all you can within this game

 

and i could go on with that list, but heres some wise advice, would u rather be the most rich person in the world and have absolutly no fun or friends at all in life, or would u rather be dirt poor and get the most out of all aspects of life enjoying every second that you can... think about it.

[Mireille]

and i could go on with that list, but heres some wise advice, would u rather be the most rich person in the world and have absolutly no fun or friends at all in life, or would u rather be dirt poor and get the most out of all aspects of life enjoying every second that you can... think about it.

 

Being rich and having friends are not mutually exclusive things.

[Zanadu]

I don't understand why lots of people see EL as a "fighting game". It's much more than a fighting game!

 

When I started playing EL, I wanted to become a manufacturer. Actually, I chose to play EL because the manufacturing skill is there. And I enjoy manufacturing. Hmm, being in top 50 too, but that's not the most important. Money is not a goal for me, it's a means to manufacture better stuff, buy buying books.

 

Someone said that there've been lots of complaints about the economy in the past, but EL is still here: doesn't that mean its economy is not so bad?

Of course i'd like to buy all ingredients and make profit by selling armors and weapons. Instead of that I gather some ingredients myself, buy some others, and make some profit in the end.

By the way, wouldn't you find boring to always practice only one skill?

 

And don't forget the "social" aspect of the game. While harvesting, your hands are free, you can talk to other people, make friends, have fun with your guild members...

 

From what I noticed in EL-- the core players have no complaints of the economy. In fact, it works very well for them and alas as long as that core group is still playing there will still be a game to play. Check your top 50's page periodically and you wont see a lot of movement in that. The same names are there. They might slide in rank slightly, but not by much. And more often is if one of those names is listed in one skill.. its listed in another if not more than even 2. The majority of your top players can make anything and everything with an occassional exception. Its a basic dead lock in the economy. Those players set the prices regardless if anyone cares to admit it or not. I'm not sure if you check the 'players online' page, but there was an increase of bot players and a decrease of playable characters since I started. If there is only 200 players online at any given time the chance of a demand in economy is also slim to none. There is not much to combat the overflow of the infinate supply without causing a direct loss to the person mixing.

 

"Fighting Game" is quoted because of the fact that the majority of players I interacted with had little to no interest in fighting. Fighters tended to taper off and most would rather to be mixers. In truth that was one of the unique aspects of this game is because one could have a role in the game without fighting. Full circle tho and everything that is made is geared to support fighting. As a manufacturer tho, you will need to make at least a thousand swords to level.. but you dont have a thousand players who will weild such sword. And as stated above, more often that "pure fighter" can barely afford to even train. The drops fighters get generally directly effect the overflow because swords, armors, rings, etc drop too. More dead-lock. I would be curious to see what changes would occure to the game if for every monster that dropped a pair of leather boots was changed to drop the raw items such as the leather that can only be obtained via npc. Gem paper via the orcs that drop rings. Something of which the fighter could offer to the mixer as certainly they cannot sell the book that can only be used once unless that book is extremely rare.

 

People place the spot light onto crafting, and yet they dont break down the true problem. The cost to make is too high. Too difficult to afford the value of the ring. It's also cheaper to use magic. The gem paper doesn't, imho, reflect well on the economy. And thus it becomes a hobby skill.

 

You mentioned harvesting as being a social skill. Imo, it was more or less the afk skill of choice. I think many would also agree to this. Don't get me wrong, I have had many great conversations with harvesters while harvesting and it can become quite interactive to a point. Harvesting is the only skill that has a decent "dump price" which directly effects the profit in harvesting. If Trik and Mira were offering competative wages like the flower shop and the npcs that buy ore there would be a sense of worth in taking the nexuses. Disagree or not, but there is a HUGE problem when the most profiting thing in the game requires no skill. The only advantage someone has at higher level is their emu. There should be more bonus than that.

[Zanadu]

The day that an iron sword sells for 100k gc will be the day that there is something wrong with the economy, right now, r u seriously so deprived from gc that your not even enjoying the game???

 

1.) its a game

 

2.) its supposed to be fun no matter what you do

 

3.) stop being stubburn and experience all you can within this game

 

and i could go on with that list, but heres some wise advice, would u rather be the most rich person in the world and have absolutly no fun or friends at all in life, or would u rather be dirt poor and get the most out of all aspects of life enjoying every second that you can... think about it.

 

Funny you should add this. No, an iron sword will never be valued at 100k nor should it. Its a newbie weapon, or at least it was when I started and was stoked to have an iron sword. Guess what tho? We quickly come to learn that hey.. in this game it is better to not fight with a weapon while training. However, its not about the iron sword needing to have some high ticket price - its about having the iron sword reflect the value of work that was placed into it. But guess what? it doesn't. In fact, the player whom would even consider buying the iron sword wouldn't even be able to afford it. In fact, its doubtful that consumer could even keep up with Trik's price. Though, I think the point he is trying to make is that now the "newbie weapon" is used for something other than it was before and the price should reflect.

 

1.) It is a game. In fact, I think the game itself is beautiful and unique. That doesnt mean I agree with the economics. In real life I wouldn't buy something from a friend and expect my friend to take a loss. If my friend works at a grocery store and every time I come into the store I expect him to give me my food for free and money from the til than I am pretty crappy friend, right?

 

2.) You might not be aware of this, but many players in mmo's tend to like to make a profit. And that is also fun for them. Don't assume that your kind of fun is always the same for everyone. In fact, in aggressive games price cutters would often drop their prices in order to push someone out of the business. Problem in this game that the prices in this game do not flux much. Once a price drops it drops and stays. Someone says the price of an essence is 7gc and noone ever questions it. If I dared tell someone I was charging them 8gc they would freak out! O'well if thats what it was worth to me than they either buy or go without.

 

3.) Your last statement didnt make a lot of sense to me. Being stubbern and experiencing all you can in the game does not relate in any way to the subject. Merchanting is as much apart of a game as anything else.

 

 

As far as the poor man point of view goes-- hate to break it to you but the rich generally have the most friends even more so than the person who gives and gives.

[redsoxlovr10]

Uh... zanadu i posted that entire thing to make a point, i wasnt literally saying that a rich man has no friends or anything, its called philosophy, (i think) so think of my "wise advice" as being hypothetical.

 

and i said the thing about an iron sword costing 100k simply to say that this entire topic doesn't seem to matter at all at the moment cause the economy doesn't seem to be hurting that much at this time.

Edited January 4, 2007 by redsoxlovr10

[Llywar]

First - hats off to Entropy for trying to make a player-based economy. Many other games out there tend to go for quick fixes like having NPCs siphon off items for cash. Sure, that can be a temporary fix, but if you can make things player-based it is much better. It is also much harder, but while the economy has its issues it isn't all that bad compared to some other free linux games out there.

 

The thing I find most frustrating is that in order to get the best possible price on a buy/sale you often have to spend a lot of time trading gossip messages with somebody until you're both on at the same time (assuming you don't spend all your free time on EL). A bot that could facilitate exchanges might be useful (and not just eternalbroker - I'm talking about actually handling the handoffs). Actually, I had an idea of a non-profit bot that just ran auctions - a market-based exchange system like many stock markets use. You'd dump in items and list prices you're willing to buy and sell at, and then every day or two the bot would figure the price that gets the most volume and execute all trades at that price. There would probably be some nominal charge for use of storage to keep people from using it as a dumping ground, and any incidental profits would be spread among all active users in some way.

 

I actually started coding it (project auctionexchange @ sf.net) as a bit of a ruby-on-rails exercise, although it isn't going to be done quickly in my spare time. I floated the idea on the bot forum although it probably didn't get a lot of attention. I'm curious as to whether such a concept would be a big plus to the game, or a net minus (reducing personal interaction). While it would reduce personal contact it would probably greatly improve the player-based aspect of the economy.

[Entropy]

A bot like that would be very interesting..

[smalul]

2.) You might not be aware of this, but many players in mmo's tend to like to make a profit. And that is also fun for them. Don't assume that your kind of fun is always the same for everyone. In fact, in aggressive games price cutters would often drop their prices in order to push someone out of the business. Problem in this game that the prices in this game do not flux much. Once a price drops it drops and stays. Someone says the price of an essence is 7gc and noone ever questions it. If I dared tell someone I was charging them 8gc they would freak out! O'well if thats what it was worth to me than they either buy or go without.

I have to agree with this - somehow a price get set and stay fixed for most items in the game. The problem is how that price is set, and mostly - who sets it. We need to figure out how the players in the market channel know how much each item is worth (when you ask for a "price check"). Also, there is a bot called trinitybot, which many players use to find out prices of items. We need to figure out where those prices come from. You could even say that whoever controls trinitybot, controls the market (assuming most market prices are based on that bot).

 

 

The thing I find most frustrating is that in order to get the best possible price on a buy/sale you often have to spend a lot of time trading gossip messages with somebody until you're both on at the same time (assuming you don't spend all your free time on EL). A bot that could facilitate exchanges might be useful (and not just eternalbroker - I'm talking about actually handling the handoffs). Actually, I had an idea of a non-profit bot that just ran auctions - a market-based exchange system like many stock markets use. You'd dump in items and list prices you're willing to buy and sell at, and then every day or two the bot would figure the price that gets the most volume and execute all trades at that price. There would probably be some nominal charge for use of storage to keep people from using it as a dumping ground, and any incidental profits would be spread among all active users in some way.

That does seem like a good idea - setting the prices based on all the players' prices, and not just the on "powerful" players' prices. This is a wide-scale solution. Other wide-scale solutions could be:

1. Logging all trade actions, figuring out the average price for each item (much like Llywar's bot), and then post an official "recommended price list".

2. Having one of the admins or mods recalculated the worth of all items in the game based on the most basic ingredients (like ores and flowers), and then chance all the NPCs' prices to make sure there is at least a minimal profit from all items.

 

However, my initial goal, by opening this thread, was to fix a small part of the prices problem, at least for the new items, because fixing the entire economy here is not something I can do (this would require changing many NPCs' prices, and/or creating brokerbots, which is not something I can do). If this thread would bring a "global fix" for the economy, I would be very happy.

Edited January 4, 2007 by smalul

[Jarld]

This is a fighting game because there are no items to support other skills other than attack and defense (well, you get 1 potion per skill, and maybe 2-3 cloaks, but that's it).

 

I too play this game as a manufacturer, but don't you agree you need a lot of books to be a manufacturer? And those books cost money, a lot of money. Also - because the way items are priced in the market, in order to make a profit, you must get all the basic ingredients yourself, and for each you need at least one book, so that means you need even more money, and you need to train your harvesting and alchemy skills as well, because you can't buy those items from other players or NPCs, and make any profit. No profit = no money = no books = no advancement...

I said that too:

Of course i'd like to buy all ingredients and make profit by selling armors and weapons. Instead of that I gather some ingredients myself, buy some others, and make some profit in the end.

By the way, wouldn't you find boring to always practice only one skill?

I agree that it could be better, but it's still enjoyable (in my opinion) the way it is.

 

But I still disagree on the fighting game aspect. Yes, the items we produce are almost all used by fighters in the end. But even if they don't produce stuff by themselves, the drops they get can be used to produce stuff. I see that as a kind of cycle, in which there's no skill above an other one, but they all depend on each other. Even on a/d.

 

That's only my opinion, there's no point in trying to convince me I'm wrong: I don't pretend to know the Truth (with a big 'T').

[Ermabwed]

Trinitybot gets her prices from owners/maintainers of her asking price checks in market channel more or less frequently, afaik.

 

Point with price checks on market channel is that a lot of players think they can't charge different prices. Which is wrong

[Walt-Her]

Trinitybot gets her prices from owners/maintainers of her asking price checks in market channel more or less frequently, afaik.

 

Point with price checks on market channel is that a lot of players think they can't charge different prices. Which is wrong

 

 

Indeed trinity's prices dont match market all times. And as from expirience ppl say youre greedy if you want to make a slichtly better price then others want to have.

 

For the different skills :

Why do you need to wear a pixaxe if your s2e's disappear from your inv. ? just wear the item and let it disappear would make more sence imho.

 

for low lvl crafters it would be nice if there were special rings needed to get to certain aria's . eg. a PL-titianium ring to get into the mine would force the demand and make it more likely to make a little profit of making rings.

 

same would be for some other things and then not only alc. would lvl up but also other skills. for i know ppl who get to lvl 30 crafting just by making thread

 

monster drops are the same imho. why not make them even more random and not so predictable and i think the problem with too many item's (eg. the axebook) wont appear.

 

problem now imho is that the way to lvl your skils is too hard compared to your a/d and you need alot of pp's in nexus to do the things you have to to improve your skils.

 

i'm pretty much an alrounder and to make a little profit to buy books and other things i indeed need to harvest everything myself and make the stuf i need to make from scratch. And yes i would like it more if i just could buy thread and fe's from lower lvl. players so they could earn gc and i dont have to wast my time on them.

 

just my 2gc