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Entropy

PvP instances

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There has been some talk about implementing pvp instances.

There are two main ideas, totally incompatible with each other.

 

Here is my idea:

  • Player made teams. You join a guild (can join/leave whenever you want, subject to the GM approval).
  • One guild challenge another, and when that happens each guild can see the other guild overall PK strength.
  • If the other guild accepts the challenge, they go to an NPC which teleports them to an instance.
  • Everyone has a certain number of lives, like 3-4. When you lose one life, you get teleported to a predefined location in the instance map. Each team will have its own location.
  • If you lose all your lives, you get teleported out of the instance.
  • All kind of games are possible, such as capture the flag, capture the fortress, last man standing, etc.
  • We can have tops and achievements for the teams.

 

Here is Korrode's idea:

  • Random queuing (you don't choose opponents or team mates and you don't know who else will be there until you enter the instance).
  • Same amount of people on either team (3vs3, 5vs5, etc.).
  • Everyone in instance will be within a close range of strength.
  • Once enough people are queued and everyone signifies they are ready, there is a 5 min wait and then everyone is 'sucked in' to the instance from wherever they are.
  • Instance map is essentially a medium length corridor, each team starts at either end and then walks towards the middle (~15-20 sec walk) where they'll meet and fight.
  • It's multicombat, everything works/is allowed
  • Instance teammates cannot attack each other and their summons won't attack. (and a chat system like #gm but different colour would be great, like "#it hi ppls")
  • Once all members of one team are dead the other team wins and the instance ends.

 

I want people to discuss a bit about the advantages and disadvantages of both ideas, and in a few day I will make a poll.

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The Korrode's idea sounds a little bit more constructive to me. In both knowing different people in game and avoiding getting the strongest team and having noone to accept to pvp instance.

 

And we have to choose one option only? It would be very nice to have both options. Like I would want to go just by myself and let the NPC queue me in a team randomly, or I would wanna go as a guild team and have fun together.

 

My 2 liras;

-Kaddy

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In most games PvP gives something back, i mean like that u go in arenas fight each other + monsters , and after leaving u earn something, like gc, energy, reputation or whatever u want to call it, or win the palace or earn a buff for sometime.

 

In addition PK fights in most maps happens because there are many players and that is a critical factor imho, u can fight people u have no clue about em.

 

In EL its different , players are few, we know each other (how weak or strong we are) and PvP will give ... nada.

 

 

Ok lets say that i am bored and do 1 or 2 rounds of pvp per week, that is the same times i go to KF, why should i continue doing it?

 

But since we have to chose i would like to see Korrode´s idea since " random " sound better to me.

 

 

 

 

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Korrode's idea sounds better to me as well in overall, although both have good points.

 

Disadvantages in your idea:

-Allows OP'd teams(and not many would like to fight them so it wouldnt increase PK that much). Wouldnt be that different from KF then imo.

-Different guild for PvP instance seems totally unnecessary to me and makes it harder for especially GMs, not eveyrone has a bot to give their guild to if they want to go to instance.

 

Advantages:

+Top lists would be nice but possibly useless(PKI top list didnt work out that well)

+Different games would be nice

 

?Rewards, would they be big enough for long fights to be profitable or at least break even?

 

Korrode's idea:

+Randomness, it makes instances more balanced, especially if everyone will be close in strength as Korrode proposed.

+Practical if you dont have to wait ages at npc for everyone to get ready(like in normal instances) or leave your guild just to find out someone in your team/opponent's team is afk.

 

?Length of instance, would it be too short with just 1 life each(as i understood from the description)?

?Everything allowed, would it turn into bitching about OP engineering/ranging? You can't choose your teammates though so either team could be OP'd then.

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[*]All kind of games are possible, such as capture the flag, capture the fortress, last man standing, etc.

 

Nice. I like Ent's idea as I really like the guild vs guild thing. Don't like the sound of random queuing as I don't like to team up with people I don't know and trust.

Edited by Sonny

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Disadvantages in your idea:

-Allows OP'd teams(and not many would like to fight them so it wouldnt increase PK that much). Wouldnt be that different from KF then imo.

Umm, no one forces you to fight OPed teams. You can fight teams your level, or ask the opposing team to drop some players.

 

-Different guild for PvP instance seems totally unnecessary to me and makes it harder for especially GMs, not eveyrone has a bot to give their guild to if they want to go to instance.

So would you like to be thrown against someone from your same guild in those random PVP instances that Korrode proposes?

 

Korrode's idea:

+Practical if you dont have to wait ages at npc for everyone to get ready(like in normal instances) or leave your guild just to find out someone in your team/opponent's team is afk.

 

I hope you realize that you will still have to wait for quite a bit if one of those randomly queued players just happens to be harvesting or doing other things while waiting.

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I hope you realize that you will still have to wait for quite a bit if one of those randomly queued players just happens to be harvesting or doing other things while waiting.

How?

My suggestion in it's exact form means once enough people are queued there'll only be a 5 min wait and then you'd start. Anyone who doesn't confirm they're ready when asked (within 30 sec) gets kicked from the queue, which would be undesirable.

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Well, the problem is that depending on team sizes, the more people waiting in the queue, the more likely someone will be distracted when the time comes. If they have a full load of stuff they might not be able to get to storage in time. Or maybe they will watch youtube movies as you suggested and forget. So then all the other players will have to wait for a new player of equivalent levels to join the queue, or for that guy to return from harvesting/AFKness.

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Another issue with Korrode's idea is that for some players it might be impossible to get matches. For example someone like Mufossa will have maybe 10 people at most that might be a close match. A 3v3 team requires all 6 people to be online and also feel like going in the instance at the same time. Furthermore, rangers, engineers and summoners won't be very happy, because the random matching might make a whole team of rangers (vs a whole team of tanks). And engineers would have no place in such instance, nor would the summoners.

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Well, the problem is that depending on team sizes, the more people waiting in the queue, the more likely someone will be distracted when the time comes. If they have a full load of stuff they might not be able to get to storage in time. Or maybe they will watch youtube movies as you suggested and forget. So then all the other players will have to wait for a new player of equivalent levels to join the queue, or for that guy to return from harvesting/AFKness.

All they need to do is keep a tele ring on them that takes them to a place very near sto.

 

 

Another issue with Korrode's idea is that for some players it might be impossible to get matches. For example someone like Mufossa will have maybe 10 people at most that might be a close match. A 3v3 team requires all 6 people to be online and also feel like going in the instance at the same time.

Mufo can make/buy an alt to do them.

 

Furthermore, rangers, engineers and summoners won't be very happy, because the random matching might make a whole team of rangers (vs a whole team of tanks). And engineers would have no place in such instance, nor would the summoners.

Use melee combat strength as the predominant strength determining factor. It's worked well enough for the PvE instances.

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All they need to do is keep a tele ring on them that takes them to a place very near sto.

Ok, so then why not just have an NPC that teleports you to the instance? I can put the NPC right near a teleport ring location. And this won't solve the youtube and pornhub watchers problem.

 

 

Mufo can make/buy an alt to do them.

If I implement something, I want it to be fair for everyone.

 

Use melee combat strength as the predominant strength determining factor. It's worked well enough for the PvE instances.

 

Yes, but my point is, those who leveled OTHER combat related skills are going to be left in the dark.

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Disadvantages in your idea:

-Allows OP'd teams(and not many would like to fight them so it wouldnt increase PK that much). Wouldnt be that different from KF then imo.

Umm, no one forces you to fight OPed teams. You can fight teams your level, or ask the opposing team to drop some players.

 

-Different guild for PvP instance seems totally unnecessary to me and makes it harder for especially GMs, not eveyrone has a bot to give their guild to if they want to go to instance.

So would you like to be thrown against someone from your same guild in those random PVP instances that Korrode proposes?

 

 

 

Dont see any problems there, you just have to say in #gm you take part and you may end up fighting against each other. And considering the guild members in this game are changing this days like everyday..there shouldnt be hard feeling anywhere. :whistle:

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All they need to do is keep a tele ring on them that takes them to a place very near sto.

Ok, so then why not just have an NPC that teleports you to the instance? I can put the NPC right near a teleport ring location. And this won't solve the youtube and pornhub watchers problem.

You can never resolve the "youtube and pornhub" watchers thing as you call it.

 

A person can play *tube in a window and still be able to glance at an EL window with the console dropped for a 'instance ready' message every few seconds.

 

It just won't be that much of a problem.

 

 

Mufo can make/buy an alt to do them.

If I implement something, I want it to be fair for everyone.

With all respect, in my opinion, you really need to stop using these tiny niche style players as a basis for any kind of decision if you want to attract the masses.

 

A while back you used Marro as an example of the potential of gc gain/selling.

Earlier today you used Vio as an example for why PK costing 100kgc for a few hours would be fine. (EDIT: which btw, competitive PK already costs more than that for solid hours of PK'ing)

Now you're using Mufossa to justify PvP instance design fairness.

 

These guys are all cool players in their own way, but they definitely do not represent anything other than a tiny minority of player types.

 

Mufossa paid a tonne of money for an already extremely strong character. Mufossa then spent a tonne of both money and time levelling the character more so. It's as far from an example of an 'average player' as you could possibly get. By trying to make things 'fair' for both him and joe-average, you make nothing really fair for anyone and probably cause yourself a lot of unnecessary work.

 

 

Use melee combat strength as the predominant strength determining factor. It's worked well enough for the PvE instances.

Yes, but my point is, those who leveled OTHER combat related skills are going to be left in the dark.

Can you elaborate on exactly what you mean by "left in the dark"?

A person who is an engineer or a ranger is going to be engaged in melee combat damn fast because their opponents will want to stop them bombing or ranging before anything else. Melee combat is not the only thing that makes up PK, certainly, but it's still at the core of it.

 

Why would rangers or engineers or whatever be unhappy?

Their skill is largely independent of their opponent's a/d, so how will they be unhappy with the instances? They just go, whatever their a/d, and then use their skill to own as much as they can... and when they get attacked in melee they'll still have a fighting chance.

 

If anything, those practising non-a/d combat skills have an advantage, I don't see why they'd be unhappy.

Edited by Korrode

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If you a grouped with someone you can't trust what's the worst thats going to happen? Can't think of anything to be honest because you don't drop anything for anyone to bagjump. Only thing they would do is die on purpose.

 

I agree with Korrodes idea for purposes mentioned in the other thread.

 

To solve the mufo problem, just make it where the random queue tries to even out the sum of combat skills within a particular range. Example: Group anyone from 130-170 a/d together. However, the teams would be randomized but in a way that would evenly distribute combat levels.

 

An NPC that you have to talk to to teleport in will make the feature less desirable to use. I mean just be real, people are lazy. They would much rather click a button on the bottom of the toolbar to queue. And Korrode's point is right, if they don't click accept within a certain amount of time, just pass the spot to the next person in the queue line. Plus if someone was queued for an instance, most likely, they won't be harvesting or such because they will need to have their gear ready incase the queue spot comes open. So really, you don't have to worry with that. In my opinion, the feature will be used much more if its not an npc but a toolbar button.

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I like Ent's idea as I really like the guild vs guild thing. Don't like the sound of random queuing as I don't like to team up with people I don't know and trust.
i like random, but theres some strangers that you cant trust

I can understand both your reservations about being pair up with people you don't like/trust, but I ask you to consider a couple of factors:

 

1. Unlike one of the current PvE instances, there is no concerns about drop sharing. You don't have to trust your teammates to share spoils, you only have to trust someone who cannot attack you to fight the people that they can attack. The impact of "trust" on the instance is far less than that of many other possible activities you can do with other people in EL.

 

2. Accessibility. Consider the different designs and think about which is easier for people to just 'up and do' and will suit the widest variety of player types (one type for example; those who cannot often guarantee lengthy periods of uninterrupted time at the EL window), and thus will be more often available to do.

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I like Ent's idea as I really like the guild vs guild thing. Don't like the sound of random queuing as I don't like to team up with people I don't know and trust.
i like random, but theres some strangers that you cant trust

I can understand both your reservations about being pair up with people you don't like/trust, but I ask you to consider a couple of factors:

 

1. Unlike one of the current PvE instances, there is no concerns about drop sharing. You don't have to trust your teammates to share spoils, you only have to trust someone who cannot attack you to fight the people that they can attack. The impact of "trust" on the instance is far less than that of many other possible activities you can do with other people in EL.

 

2. Accessibility. Consider the different designs and think about which is easier for people to just 'up and do' and will suit the widest variety of player types (one type for example; those who cannot often guarantee lengthy periods of uninterrupted time at the EL window), and thus will be more often available to do.

 

Well if we will not drop we cant worry about being bagjumped

in this case i think korrode idea is the better

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I like aspects of both but atm I like Ent's idea a little more. I really think that adding value to guilds is a good thing, and also give something for guild members something to look forward to if you have some kind of planned event around this system. If there are guild achievements or personal achievements based around the system even better. Plus i'm not keen on the whole random thing.

 

While I understand Korrode's idea of trying to make it as accessible as possible (having spent many hours getting together PvE instance teams) I also know that if I were put in a PvP instance with a random person who screws the team out of winning(or possibility of winning) and then I have to wait for the PvP cool-down counter to run back down or pay a fee to get back into line early to try again with the possibly of being randomly put back in with that player, that would be somewhat frustrating and I would be less likely to use the PvP instance feature in the future.

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[*]All kind of games are possible, such as capture the flag, capture the fortress, last man standing, etc.

 

 

This is the part that is most appealing to me. I don't claim to know an awful lot about PK, but the idea of different match types appeal to me greatly.

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We have probably a scale of combat levels from 1 to 400 or so, if we factor things like a/d, ranging, p/c/i, and so on.

If we normalize it to around 1-100, in order to make teams fair, you'd need someone to be no more than +/-5 at most. So that means about 10 tiers. In order to get teams, you'd need something like over 100 players in that queue at the same time. Sure, some tiers, like, say, someone 70 on that scale will find a team more often, but people 80+ and 50- will probably not find that many matches.

 

While I understand Korrode's idea of trying to make it as accessible as possible (having spent many hours getting together PvE instance teams) I also know that if I were put in a PvP instance with a random person who screws the team out of winning(or possibility of winning) and then I have to wait for the PvP cool-down counter to run back down or pay a fee to get back into line early to try again with the possibly of being randomly put back in with that player, that would be somewhat frustrating and I would be less likely to use the PvP instance feature in the future.

 

One other thing I don't like about Mr. K's idea is the fact that those instances will last very little, possibly 5 minutes or so, depending mainly on the map size. Also, once a player is gone from a team, that team will pretty much lose (depending on how well they are matched, and assuming a perfect match). It would take more time to get to the instance than the instance itself.

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Ent's idea sounds the most apealing due to the type of game. Player can go kill each other in KF now as it is. But a capture the flag / fort / LMS would more fun for everyone, especially those who normally do not PK "free style"

.

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While I understand Korrode's idea of trying to make it as accessible as possible (having spent many hours getting together PvE instance teams) I also know that if I were put in a PvP instance with a random person who screws the team out of winning(or possibility of winning) and then I have to wait for the PvP cool-down counter to run back down or pay a fee to get back into line early to try again

Well, whether or not there'd be a 'cooldown' at all has yet to be fully discussed.

 

As I said in the other thread, so long as the rewards being received by someone doing them for an hour solid isn't more than say, someone on a monster spawn, then there's no reason to have a cooldown on it.

 

One other thing I don't like about Mr. K's idea is the fact that those instances will last very little, possibly 5 minutes or so, depending mainly on the map size. Also, once a player is gone from a team, that team will pretty much lose (depending on how well they are matched, and assuming a perfect match). It would take more time to get to the instance than the instance itself.

The beauty of them being short, especially if they have no cooldown, is if one goes badly for your team it's over pretty fast and you can re-queue and try your luck again.

 

 

 

We have probably a scale of combat levels from 1 to 400 or so, if we factor things like a/d, ranging, p/c/i, and so on.

If we normalize it to around 1-100, in order to make teams fair, you'd need someone to be no more than +/-5 at most. So that means about 10 tiers. In order to get teams, you'd need something like over 100 players in that queue at the same time. Sure, some tiers, like, say, someone 70 on that scale will find a team more often, but people 80+ and 50- will probably not find that many matches.

With the current playerbase, the matches will be sparing for some level ranges i agree (it's not even like there's going to be ultra-fast queues 24/7 at any level range), but the size of the playerbase will impact any team-based game feature, including your proposal.

 

If people have to level a/d a bit to get to that area where PvP instances goers are more common, I don't think that's the end of the world. It's not like we're talking 120+ a/d they'd need to level to either, hopefully just to like 60's or 70's, it's doable quickly enough for most anyone.

Edited by Korrode

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If you a grouped with someone you can't trust what's the worst thats going to happen? Can't think of anything to be honest because you don't drop anything for anyone to bagjump. Only thing they would do is die on purpose.

 

To solve the mufo problem, just make it where the random queue tries to even out the sum of combat skills within a particular range. Example: Group anyone from 130-170 a/d together. However, the teams would be randomized but in a way that would evenly distribute combat levels.

An NPC that you have to talk to to teleport in will make the feature less desirable to use. I mean just be real, people are lazy. They would much rather click a button on the bottom of the toolbar to queue. And Korrode's point is right, if they don't click accept within a certain amount of time, just pass the spot to the next person in the queue line. Plus if someone was queued for an instance, most likely, they won't be harvesting or such because they will need to have their gear ready incase the queue spot comes open. So really, you don't have to worry with that. In my opinion, the feature will be used much more if its not an npc but a toolbar button.

 

 

I agree with these comments made by kidberg especially the one I've highlighted here. No drop means no worries and the team can select a trusted person to act as team captain to collect the reward.

As for the length of time when you enter, a time limit can surely be set (maybe 15mins) Also the type of game can be randomised (capture the flag)(most kills) etc. Once you have entered you can click to join the queue again. Its much more fun as the kf rumbles prove, to have random teams and only see your team mates as the teams are put together.

: Therefore i like a combination of both ideas, leaning a little more towards Korrodes

Edited by Starlite

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