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Kalix

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and what? No-one said it should be a game where you get everything nice and easily. No-one is really saying you should change the basic gameplay (some people are complaining about it sure, but not suggesting you change the whole game). People are suggesting you make the fucking tutorial more accessible. Why the hell are you so opposed to that? Give me 1 good reason other than you don't want the population of the game to grow.

 

OK so - you start RIGHT next to him. He has a sign over his head saying Tutorial, and he is even marked on the TAB map. Is he where you start the game? Yes. Do you have to walk AT ALL to find him? No. Is he marked on the tab maps? Yes. How much more accessible do you want? Should we dress him in drag and have him dance the hula? Maybe a bright pink neon wig? I really am not getting how he is not accessible.

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And despite all your oh so clever comments the fact still remains:

 

This game's population has never particularly grown, even after 7-8 years. If you're happy with that then it's fine. If not try to be helpful and contribute maybe? Or you could wait another 8 years and see if there's more people playing ofcourse; the old waiting game does have its merits.

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And despite all your oh so clever comments the fact still remains:

 

This game's population has never particularly grown, even after 7-8 years. If you're happy with that then it's fine. If not try to be helpful and contribute maybe? Or you could wait another 8 years and see if there's more people playing ofcourse; the old waiting game does have its merits.

 

Not sure who you are directing this at but since I started this thread I feel the urge to respond. Do you have ANY clue what I do most of the time I am logged on to EL? Maybe you should follow your own advice and help.

Edited by Maxine

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And despite all your oh so clever comments the fact still remains:

 

This game's population has never particularly grown, even after 7-8 years. If you're happy with that then it's fine. If not try to be helpful and contribute maybe? Or you could wait another 8 years and see if there's more people playing ofcourse; the old waiting game does have its merits.

I think the point is that your oh so clever analysis of WHY is wrong. As well as your conclusion as to our motives and desires.

 

(As a side note, my initial "greeting" to you in this thread was a friendly jab acknowledging the history of the exchanges we've shared over the years. I don't think you can honestly say I have ever treated you badly here or not participated in reasonable discussions with you when we've had our issues. I had thought you would have seen it for what it was, nothing more sinister was intended.)

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Winkz' post basically highlights the problem for me. The majority of players in this game, if they stay long enough, get converted to the view that new players are bad. This cannot be a good thing... it's basically inbreeding on a slightly larger scale. The only people who ever really stick around all end up being pretty much the same, which is great for the short-term as generally people get along, but bad for the long term if you want the game population to grow.

 

Mate I don't see all new players as bad (and I'm betting others don't either), and it's not elitism. I just meant I'd much rather spend time talking to new players who are patient and are willing to take the time to learn rather than whiney 12 year old kids who want instant gratification. Fortunately most of the new players I meet on IP are nice and ask good questions.

 

Quality over quantity, yeah?

Edited by Winkz

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And despite all your oh so clever comments the fact still remains:

 

This game's population has never particularly grown, even after 7-8 years. If you're happy with that then it's fine. If not try to be helpful and contribute maybe? Or you could wait another 8 years and see if there's more people playing ofcourse; the old waiting game does have its merits.

I think the point is that your oh so clever analysis of WHY is wrong. As well as your conclusion as to our motives and desires.

 

Oh god no, you assume I think this is the main reason?!? This is simply what was being discussed. If you want me to state WHY this game is as it is I'd want immunity and a few days to get the list straight. Since I'm not going to get that I'll simply fight where I can to try and improve what small bits can be improved.

 

I don't really have any idea what your motives and desires are, nor have I professed to know them. I've always known and thought you to be level headed, generally fair and want whats best for the game. This is wrong?

 

The community as a whole however isn't the same, as is to be expected. I still don't quite understand why this is such a big deal to you. This is a problem that has been highlighted and is viewed as a problem by a large enough amount of people here that doing something about it wouldn't be a waste of time, wouldn't change anything drastic gameplay wise and as far as I can see shouldn't upset anyone. You still haven't given me any solid reason why making a nice tutorial section is a bad idea.

 

Why do you insist on continuing to try and bash me down rather than focus on the problems? It really is quite beyond me :S

 

- Maxine I don't really care what you spend your days doing; the tutorial still isn't great, and your comment still didn't help.

Edited by Lorlen

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The community as a whole however isn't the same, as is to be expected. I still don't quite understand why this is such a big deal to you. This is a problem that has been highlighted and is viewed as a problem by a large enough amount of people here that doing something about it wouldn't be a waste of time, wouldn't change anything drastic gameplay wise and as far as I can see shouldn't upset anyone. You still haven't given me any solid reason why making a nice tutorial section is a bad idea.

 

We think we have a GREAT new tutorial section.

 

The game is playable pretty easily just using intuition right off the bat. The Tutorial-NPC is right there labeled when you enter. Bunnies hop and are killable. Easy flowers are harvestable. Hints scroll on the screen with info on immediate needs, @1 newbie help is going and new players are told first thing about #help_me. The ingame help window and encyclopedia is easily found with that big golden question mark that seems so popular. Anything and everything a newbie could want is at his fingertips.

 

The disconnect is not that we don't think newbies deserve help. But really...do we HAVE to trash up the game by adding silly things like golden question marks and tacky interfaces and gui's just to get or keep a newbie who came from Runescape or WoW?

 

(As to your other comments, I can't truthfully say I disagree. But as you well know, all of that is another topic for another time. Nor do I try to bash you.)

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And despite all your oh so clever comments the fact still remains:

 

This game's population has never particularly grown, even after 7-8 years. If you're happy with that then it's fine. If not try to be helpful and contribute maybe? Or you could wait another 8 years and see if there's more people playing ofcourse; the old waiting game does have its merits.

I think the point is that your oh so clever analysis of WHY is wrong.

So Aisy, what's your take on why the EL population is stagnant?

 

I think i've heard you say player attitudes before, is that right? and/or do you think there's other reasons?

 

(If this is getting too off topic we can just make another thread yes?)

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And despite all your oh so clever comments the fact still remains:

 

This game's population has never particularly grown, even after 7-8 years. If you're happy with that then it's fine. If not try to be helpful and contribute maybe? Or you could wait another 8 years and see if there's more people playing ofcourse; the old waiting game does have its merits.

I think the point is that your oh so clever analysis of WHY is wrong.

So Aisy, what's your take on why the EL population is stagnant?

 

I think i've heard you say player attitudes before, is that right? and/or do you think there's other reasons?

 

(If this is getting too off topic we can just make another thread yes?)

Yes it's off topic and I'm pretty sure I stated that somewhere in this thread already ;)

And I wasn't really planning on filling my day today with THAT disaster of a discussion :P

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The community as a whole however isn't the same, as is to be expected. I still don't quite understand why this is such a big deal to you. This is a problem that has been highlighted and is viewed as a problem by a large enough amount of people here that doing something about it wouldn't be a waste of time, wouldn't change anything drastic gameplay wise and as far as I can see shouldn't upset anyone. You still haven't given me any solid reason why making a nice tutorial section is a bad idea.
Nor do I try to bash you.

 

I disagree, look at my very first post in this thread and then your very first reply to me.

 

(I didn't say there should be the question marks for quests ;s)

 

The last thing I would say is that, if you think the tutorial is great (so great that there's a nice lengthy suggestion list in the relevant section...), what else are you doing in order to try and bring in more players? Ignoring my ideas is fine if you have some of your own that are as simple to implement. If not then would it not be better to have some improvement, even if it is small than to have none at all?

 

Oh, and my last last thing: This topic that is for discussion another time. Will it ever be that time?

Edited by Lorlen

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But really...do we HAVE to trash up the game by adding silly things like golden question marks and tacky interfaces and gui's just to get or keep a newbie who came from Runescape or WoW?

 

Why would this necessarily trash the game? I don't find that silly at all. Nobody said, it has to be giant sparkling exclamation or question mark. But I do liked small bubbles with those when I used to play Diablo for example.

 

A little more convenience, a little more likeable GUI and a little more "fancy stuff" couldn't possibly hurt, unless you like to play some sort of old MUD RPG game with console only... (okay I'm a bit sarcastic in here, but you get the point, right?)

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A little more convenience, a little more likeable GUI and a little more "fancy stuff" couldn't possibly hurt, unless you like to play some sort of old MUD RPG game with console only... (okay I'm a bit sarcastic in here, but you get the point, right?)

 

So, if the inventory window wouldnt look like a window as it does right now, but would have some planks as borders and window title, with some leaves or cuddly animal pictures attached, you would be happy?

 

Maybe even a silhouette of a person as the background for the slots with the equipment worn?

 

Thats all, nothing more?

 

Piper

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Problem solved.

 

I suggest a new p2p race.

 

All quest npc's will now be the Microsoft paper clip!

 

 

 

/problem

 

 

Wizz

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- Maxine I don't really care what you spend your days doing; the tutorial still isn't great, and your comment still didn't help.

 

 

Really? I'm surprised anyone would think the new tutorial isn't great. It's excellent. It teaches the 'patient reader' how to do (just about) everything. It gets you started on a few quests, but doesn't force you to finish them for rewards. I think the new tutorials are worth starting a new character for.

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In regards to people wanting marks over quest NPCs heads: tacky (maybe with the exception of the tutorial NPC. Still tacky, but probably a necessary evil) Some of the NPCs are long winded but that's the entire NPC with their chat and their story and maybe a lesson about the game, the explanation about the quest itself isn't usually that long. I'd like to suggest 2 things.

 

1. Once you talk to the NPC, have any option that leads into a quest be a different color. Storyline options white, quest options yellow. That way the game isn't gummed up with tons of tacky question marks or exclamation points. People who want to read the whole NPC can and people who are just interested in the quests can see clearly if an NPC has one for them or not. Since the quest options aren't always on the very first page of the NPC dialogue some reading is still going to be required, but its a reasonable compromise. And yes some people will just click through every option to see if yellow ones show up....but people do that already to see if stuff shows up in the quest logs.

 

2. The quest log needs to be revamped. I know its a sore subject, but its true. There are too many quests to keep track of now. A new simple quest tracker would help a lot. All it would need to be is a list of the quests names, gray for un-started (kind of like unread books in the knowledge list), white for in progress, blue for finished. The important parts of the dialog can still be stored in the tracker as it is now to help you remember objectives. This would help sort out confusion when doing multiple quests and show newer players that there are quests out there, you just have to find them. And please no one hand me this BS about writing things down. I play computer games for a reason. If i wanted to track and write out everything, I'd go play Clue.

 

 

About the general first look itself: I think it should be viewed as a good source of info. No changes HAVE to be made based on this guys assumptions, wrong or right but it shouldn't be brushed off because he didn't have rave things to say about it. The game IS hard for new people to pick up on, helping them get started easier doesn't have to mean doing everything for them or giving them tons of stuff.

 

EL is an MMO in a world of other MMOs, its going to be compared to other games and other games are going to be compared to it. Its silly to think that is not going to happen.

 

About the look of the game being sleeker: Couldn't hurt. The game looks fine to me now, but its just something else to draw attention. What would be so bad about the HP/EMU/mana/food bars and all the buttons below them to be centered at the bottom and surrounded by some pretty celtic knots? Maybe put the walk/sit/stand etc. in round buttons instead of clunky square ones? Get rid of the solid borders, let the whole screen be used! ;) But again, I think what is there now doesn't look bad, but sometimes changes like that can draw some attention and make the whole thing look updated.

 

About Newbie Island: Would it be better if you had to start out on the island to learn the basics but there was a 'Play Now' option that allows people to skip the Island and go right to IP? That way the people who are just itching to get into the main game can and people who like to know a little of what they are doing can run it through? I tired runescape and I thought that the tutorial thingy you had to complete was interesting, but it was too long and it tried to give too much info right off the bat. After i had the basics of how to move around and use things I would have optioned out of the rest.

 

Random thought: the maps the game comes with suck. They look cute but are almost useless. There is a reason most people who stay more then 15 mins switch to some of the other map packs. Some thought about revamping them or just making one of the more detailed maps the default maps might be wise.

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  • Whats the fun of finding quests if they are advertised with big billboards?

Ok well, firstly, different people have different wants;

Some people really enjoy the roleplay aspects and enjoy talking to all the NPC's and "hunting down"/"discovering" the quests.

Some people don't play MMORPG's for the roleplay-questing aspect, they play for other reasons. Myself for example plays for the action, for the PlayerGroup VS Environment or Player(s) VS Player(s) combat. The only quests I really do are ones I feel I 'have' to (Novac for example, to get Vanquisher perk). There's no doubt other types of people too, who aren't playing for the reasons I do, but also aren't playing for the deep questing.

 

Since neither of us is psychic we can't know for sure which angle is going to be the best to take for attracting new players; make the quests easier to find, or leave them 'hard' to find. All we can do is look at real-world facts.

All the other MMORPG's I've played (and at least one other person in this thread said this too) have a system of easily identifying NPC's with quests.

So, MMORPG's that implement such systems have many thousands of players online at any given time.

EL which doesn't implement such a system struggles for 500 players (329 online at time of writing).

 

Of course, I'm not saying this is the only area where EL needs changes to increase the playerbase, far from it, but it's a system we know is popular elsewhere, so how can you really feel confident that EL's current system is 'better'?

 

  • With respect to the newbie tutorial quest, have you done it since the update? It is very much improved and well worth the time, even for a more experienced player. Lots of simple tasks that have good rewards in xp and some items. As part of revamped tutorial you also get introduced to Novac, Haidir and Xaquelina, as well as the Alchemy quest in DP. All appropriate for newbies, no need for billboards, just a little reading.

I read about them at time of implementation but haven't experienced them first hand. I'll check them out tomorrow.

 

  • Players dont start at a/d 4/4 anymore, but much higher (7/7), you can actually kill a few critters before you die, but if you dont bother to go back to the tutorial NPC for some free healing, you will keep dying, since you respawn with 5 hp.

I'm aware of the change to starting a/d some time back. I still think it's 'too easy' to die 'too early', based on what I believe many new players would be desiring from their initial play

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A little more convenience, a little more likeable GUI and a little more "fancy stuff" couldn't possibly hurt, unless you like to play some sort of old MUD RPG game with console only... (okay I'm a bit sarcastic in here, but you get the point, right?)

 

So, if the inventory window wouldnt look like a window as it does right now, but would have some planks as borders and window title, with some leaves or cuddly animal pictures attached, you would be happy?

 

Maybe even a silhouette of a person as the background for the slots with the equipment worn?

 

Thats all, nothing more?

 

Piper

 

<sarcasm>Why not add a scarcely clothed anime chick to the window, while at it? </sarcasm>

 

There is no need to be condescending really, don't patronize me please. A word "little" is quite essential. I don't get why it has to be one extreme or the other? Why do you think I'd like overdone GUI with curlies and obtrusive illustrations?

 

Some revamping would be nice, more detailed, neat GUI, some small conveniencies like quest mark above NPC heads... Is it really too much "childish" for you?

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I think Nova made some good ideas for any improvements ;)

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<sarcasm>Why not add a scarcely clothed anime chick to the window, while at it? </sarcasm>

I second that!

 

Some revamping would be nice, more detailed, neat GUI, some small conveniencies like quest mark above NPC heads... Is it really too much "childish" for you?

What exactly do you want to revamp, more detailled?

 

An inventory for example, is an inventory, it shows the items in your inventory. The one we have serves that purpose very well IMO.

 

Quest mark/quest list, some games have that, others dont. I'm not going to vote for or against that, thats personal taste how you like to play a game.

 

Others posted links of GUI's which had lots of graphics in their inventory, cool round buttons and such, thats why i mentioned leaves and cuddly animals, not to call you *childish*.

 

So what exactly do you want to improve besides quest marks/quest list?

 

Maybe we should start another thread for GUI improvements than discussing that here, which was originally about "the first impressionist" and his video.

 

Piper

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I played guild wars for awhile , the storyline was OK for a game - the quests has the excalmation marks over thier heads , it was all pretty easy to acess plus no matter which class you chose you had access to ass kicking weapons ( that you needed to use) right from the start. And you regularly got drops for more weapons and armors ect.

 

Im not saying EL needs these aspects, and I understand after 4 years of playing its not about instant gratification ( hell just gossip my levels ), but yeh I have to agree there are certain aspects of modern day MMO's that do have a more player friendly feel to them.

 

EL isnt anymore of a grindfest than any other game imo, but it isnt as kind to its players either.

 

I still enjoy EL , still enjoy wandering around with no particular game plan, resetting trying different things ... but as to it being unfriendly to new players, I agree.

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I pretty much agree 100% with Lorlen and Nova.

 

And for all of you that think the beginning is a filter for people you dont want in the game, as if they are total idiots, how would you know? You haven't even given them a chance. Just because the majority of new players and the other hundred of million gamers out there may not want to read all the pages of dialogue that you have set up for them to read doesn't mean they are idiots. That is a complete stereotype that has seem to developed over the EL community over the years.

 

Aislinn, I can tell by simply reading your post that EL is for the most part the only mmorpg you have ever played, ever. The mark over the quest npcs is in probably just about every single mmorpg out there, and you havnt even tried it, but you automatically know you don't like it and are fighting against it, you think it is dumbing down the game for all the dumb ass people in the world but really its not. It just simply offers the people who don't want to go to every npc looking for a quest to find them easier, as for the fact that its all on that one website, how are new players who just installed the game suppose to know about the website? This doesn't stop any one from speaking to all of the npcs it just allows people to find the quest ones easier.

 

As for the interface, it is hard to get use to, but that isn't terrible. It does look awful compared to any other game game but EL isn't about the visual graphics. I do suggest that the mini map opens when a new player starts the game though and you have the option to turn it off when you open your options up because it shows all the npcs other players and monster near by which would be extremely helpful.

 

The tutorial quest in my opinion isn't that bad,there are a lot of features in EL so it takes a while to learn them all. How ever put something like a scroll or a ! or a ? over quest npcs head so they know it has a quest, because like I said every mmorpg out there has something like that so ne1 coming to EL from playing another game is assuming the quest npc will have something over there head symbolizing it has a quest.

 

I dont understand why you are bashing him and not considering his ideas? Please some one tell me.

Edited by Kalix

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Hardcore (or Zaer?), I will not tolerate your continual trolling here. You were already banned like 3 times from the forums for this very same crap. If you hate the game, don't play it, and don't give us your 'advice'. If you genunely want to give us any advice, then you must be up to date with the facts and with the game itself. K?

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I am not understanding what is so "lousy" about the interface.

 

From a visual aspect, it's clean and simple, uncluttered, and IMO fits well with the overall look of the game.

(it also fits nicely on my 7-inch screen)

 

As for functionality, the interface was very intuitive for me.

I am one of those people that like to jump in head first without reading instructions, the tooltips were more than enough to get started.

 

When I eventually got to the point when I needed help, well that wasn't too hard to find.

That question-mark button with the "view help" tooltip was a bit obvious :bow_arrow:

 

My first impression of those other interfaces: what a mess

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After re-reading this thread multiple times and watching the video of "The First Impressionist" over and over again, i got the funny thought, how he would rate other games.

 

Well, a little bit offtopic, but SCNR.

 

How would he rate one of the ancestors of all those MMORPG's, MUD's, Dungeons, Adventures and such?

 

Chess

 

Ok, here is a fantasy world named Chess. The graphics is not that well, everything is in black and white, a little bit outdated since players played games on a simple terminal like Adventureland and such.

 

Something like red and blue, or pink and gold might look better, but it looks like a very old game. So let's live with that.

 

The game comes with a simple game map, called the chessboard, again only in black and white, and it seems that this world is really small, since there seems to be no other maps available. But maybe that comes with an extension later. Or you have to find secret places to enter the main land.

 

The game world is quite empty, even if i prefer not to run alone through an empty world, lets give it a try.

 

So, we have a book of rules, a set of figures to play, again, all in black and white.

 

We will deal with the book later, just browsing through it a little bit. Aah, there it is: You need a 2nd person to play, the so called enemy. Ok, we will deal with that later..

 

Now let's create a character. The game offers you 2 armies, again black and white only, but both free to play. Lets choose the white one.

 

Putting the figures on the map might start the game, so let's do it.

 

The game interface itself is quite poor, it's not even point and click, it's just grab and move, not what modern games actually offer you.

 

So, now we have put the white army on the map "chessboard", let's see what happens.

 

Nothing.

 

It would be nice, if there is a flashing arrow pointing at the figure, which could do now a succesfull move.

 

Or some colorful text giving you hints about good moves or figures, which might be attacked.

 

Oh, ok, got it, the enemy is still missing.

 

So let's start and move some of those figures across the map. Maybe something happens.

 

First, i move a white figure on a white square, maybe that might trigger an effect.

 

Nope, nothing happens.

 

Now let's try to move a white figure on a black square and see what happens then.

 

Nothing again.

 

Hmm... can i see my stats anywhere?

 

Oh, right, there is an empty box just at the bottom left of the chessboard. I guess, thats Valhalla, where dead heroes go to.

 

Cool, so i can see at least, how many of my soldiers died already.

 

Status counters like that should be at the top left of the screen, like actual games have it, so lets move the box up to the top left corner of the chessboard.

 

So, let's attack something by grabbing and moving, duh..

Nothing happens, it looks like i can't kill my own soldiers.

 

Ah, right, the enemy is still missing, that makes sense, that you can't kill members of your own army!

 

Well, and that's it with my 10 minutes first impressions from chess.

 

Even if it looks very poor and not a lot of action happens, i've heard, that it has millions of players, some even played it longer than 3 years or even more.

 

So there must be some kind of secrets i haven't found out right now.

 

That will be a part of the review i will write soon. Maybe it is necessairy to find that 2nd player named "enemy" to start the whole game, but we will deal with that in the review.

 

SCNR :bow_arrow:

 

Piper

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After re-reading this thread multiple times and watching the video of "The First Impressionist" over and over again, i got the funny thought, how he would rate other games.

 

Well, a little bit offtopic, but SCNR.

 

How would he rate one of the ancestors of all those MMORPG's, MUD's, Dungeons, Adventures and such?

 

Chess

 

Ok, here is a fantasy world named Chess. The graphics is not that well, everything is in black and white, a little bit outdated since players played games on a simple terminal like Adventureland and such.

 

Something like red and blue, or pink and gold might look better, but it looks like a very old game. So let's live with that.

 

The game comes with a simple game map, called the chessboard, again only in black and white, and it seems that this world is really small, since there seems to be no other maps available. But maybe that comes with an extension later. Or you have to find secret places to enter the main land.

 

The game world is quite empty, even if i prefer not to run alone through an empty world, lets give it a try.

 

So, we have a book of rules, a set of figures to play, again, all in black and white.

 

We will deal with the book later, just browsing through it a little bit. Aah, there it is: You need a 2nd person to play, the so called enemy. Ok, we will deal with that later..

 

Now let's create a character. The game offers you 2 armies, again black and white only, but both free to play. Lets choose the white one.

 

Putting the figures on the map might start the game, so let's do it.

 

The game interface itself is quite poor, it's not even point and click, it's just grab and move, not what modern games actually offer you.

 

So, now we have put the white army on the map "chessboard", let's see what happens.

 

Nothing.

 

It would be nice, if there is a flashing arrow pointing at the figure, which could do now a succesfull move.

 

Or some colorful text giving you hints about good moves or figures, which might be attacked.

 

Oh, ok, got it, the enemy is still missing.

 

So let's start and move some of those figures across the map. Maybe something happens.

 

First, i move a white figure on a white square, maybe that might trigger an effect.

 

Nope, nothing happens.

 

Now let's try to move a white figure on a black square and see what happens then.

 

Nothing again.

 

Hmm... can i see my stats anywhere?

 

Oh, right, there is an empty box just at the bottom left of the chessboard. I guess, thats Valhalla, where dead heroes go to.

 

Cool, so i can see at least, how many of my soldiers died already.

 

Status counters like that should be at the top left of the screen, like actual games have it, so lets move the box up to the top left corner of the chessboard.

 

So, let's attack something by grabbing and moving, duh..

Nothing happens, it looks like i can't kill my own soldiers.

 

Ah, right, the enemy is still missing, that makes sense, that you can't kill members of your own army!

 

Well, and that's it with my 10 minutes first impressions from chess.

 

Even if it looks very poor and not a lot of action happens, i've heard, that it has millions of players, some even played it longer than 3 years or even more.

 

So there must be some kind of secrets i haven't found out right now.

 

That will be a part of the review i will write soon. Maybe it is necessairy to find that 2nd player named "enemy" to start the whole game, but we will deal with that in the review.

 

SCNR :bow_arrow:

 

Piper

 

Post of the year!

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