Attacking PK'ers/PvP/FFers - Outlawry?

[conavar]

And conavar: changing a subforum name goes imo beyond having a personal opinion as player.

 

Yes it does, but it was just a general comment that a lot of players think when a Admin/Mod posts anything its from there official stand point( you should know this yourself from experience) but any views they post shouldnt be automatically taken as the " official stance"

Edited May 13, 2008 by conavar

[robotbob]

EDIT: I stand by my comment about the change of the forum title. I consider it an insulting and borderline hostile expression by a person who has more authority in the game than I do. That is my opinion of the action, and if Aislinn is the one who did it, then that is my opinion of her action.

 

So you find it unfair to label people 'Whiners'? What if the community agrees in a vote, that people who complain

are in fact "Whiners' by definition? What if by our undetermined population of vocal forum users determine this to be our defined

morality and we decide to label anyone that defies it? I mean, why can we warn people of whining?

[peino]

EDIT: It's adorable that the name of Outlaws has been changed to Whiner's Forum. As far as I'm concerned, that ends this whole conversation because it makes it the official position of EL's admins that the player community can go fuck itself, and that people being pricks to each other is what EL wants to see happening. With that in mind, I'll bow out of this discussion now.

 

Are you fucking kidding me?

Do you expect the admins to hold the player's wiener when they pee?

Thank you for showing that my interpretation was right.

[Aislinn]

EDIT: I stand by my comment about the change of the forum title. I consider it an insulting and borderline hostile expression by a person who has more authority in the game than I do. That is my opinion of the action, and if Aislinn is the one who did it, then that is my opinion of her action.

Just as much as 'PK is PK' and PKers have the 'right' to kill others on PK maps, do others imo have the 'right' to give out a warning. I think it is grossly unfair and offensive to all of a sudden change the name of the outlaws forum to 'whiners forum'. Is everyone who ever posted here (yes, me as well) to warn others someone might attack you during PVP, or might jump your bag if you hit that telenexus, suddenly a whiner? Sorry to say it, but I really think this is a ridiculous and immature act.

 

 

And conavar: changing a subforum name goes imo beyond having a personal opinion as player.

It absolutely was me who changed it. I created and named it, and I changed the title to prove a point. It obviously was grossly misnamed in the first place and for that I do apologize. I had no idea it would be considered official game stance on PKing, or policy, nor did I want it to be. It seemed a catchy title at the time. In no way was it EVER intended to imply that PKing is SO conditional that unless you followed a certain non-official set of "unwritten" rules, you were "bad".

I really feel bad for most of the people slandered there just because they play the game as it was intended to be played.

Yes that was an admin priviledge to change the title. I am not clear how that has anything to do with the issue at hand other than the original title of "Outlaws" has apparently given people a very misguided notion of right and wrong and how to play the game.

[Mar(c)]

It obviously was grossly misnamed in the first place and for that I do apologize.

And it is at least as grossly misnamed now, do you apologize for that as well?

Molime has put it very well:

I've always considered outlaws forum mostly a place to warn others about certain behaviour. As has been said in this topic, not everyone will attack pvp'ers, or merc runners, or hydro runners, or (fill in). It's just good to know when you're relatively safe when you see someone approach, or best to leave the area right away. I think what is or isn't considered 'outlaw' in the sense of this forum, is a matter of personal opinion. I don't think it matters if it's a 'majority' of the community who thinks a certain way. People with similar opinions will agree, feel warned, great, over and done with and move on.

[Vanyel]

Hah, it's somehow funny people are all ok with calling others Outlawers and are getting very irritated when called Whiners.

Interesting experiment. Results aren't a big surprise, though. Nothing more could've been expected, honestly. We so love labelling others. Pretty funny to feel better than others, isn't it? They are Outlawers! They are Whiners! They are admins!!!!!1~ They are, omfg!, they are moderators!!!1~ Oh well... labels are entertaining.

I'd suggest renaming the forums to something as neutral as possible. I know our, omfg1!!! they are, ADMINS!!!11~ will come up with something interesting.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Vanyel

[Ateh]

changing the name of outlaws section to WHiners Forum isnt fair really, its going to put people off posting a genuine grievance against someone who genuinely acted ina way thats not nice towards the community.

 

Branding anyone who posts information that might help the rest of us a whiner isnt too helpful really.

 

Ok so alot of crap gets posted in there about '' play A dont like me so i dont like player A and so i post in outlaws because he bagjumped me after i serped his spawn because he stole my milk and cookies ''

 

but on the other hand , theres some useful shit in there about who not to trust, alot of guilds use outlaw section to determine who gets a red tag and who is the latest idiot going around doing PVP scams.

[robotbob]

It obviously was grossly misnamed in the first place and for that I do apologize.

And it is at least as grossly misnamed now, do you apologize for that as well?

 

Selective reading? She said,

 

It absolutely was me who changed it. I created and named it, and I changed the title to prove a point

[Aislinn]

It obviously was grossly misnamed in the first place and for that I do apologize.

And it is at least as grossly misnamed now, do you apologize for that as well?

Molime has put it very well:

I've always considered outlaws forum mostly a place to warn others about certain behaviour. As has been said in this topic, not everyone will attack pvp'ers, or merc runners, or hydro runners, or (fill in). It's just good to know when you're relatively safe when you see someone approach, or best to leave the area right away. I think what is or isn't considered 'outlaw' in the sense of this forum, is a matter of personal opinion. I don't think it matters if it's a 'majority' of the community who thinks a certain way. People with similar opinions will agree, feel warned, great, over and done with and move on.

No and here is why. People seem to have NO problem calling other players bad, mean, unfair, evil, immoral, etc etc etc when something does not go their way in EL and posting their complaints publicly including the flames and insults and trying to ruin that person's reputation in the name of "warning" others. However if in return somebody calls them a whiner or baby or cheerleader or whatever...look how badly they take it. As I stated, it was to prove a point. It was not directed at anyone personally. Labels work both ways and are equally unpleasant both directions. I fail to see why somebody has more right to insult somebody who PK's on a PK map than that same PKer has the right to call that complainer a whiner.

[Shujral]

changing the name of outlaws section to WHiners Forum isnt fair really, its going to put people off posting a genuine grievance against someone who genuinely acted ina way thats not nice towards the community.

 

Branding anyone who posts information that might help the rest of us a whiner isnt too helpful really.

 

Ok so alot of crap gets posted in there about '' play A dont like me so i dont like player A and so i post in outlaws because he bagjumped me after i serped his spawn because he stole my milk and cookies ''

 

but on the other hand , theres some useful shit in there about who not to trust, alot of guilds use outlaw section to determine who gets a red tag and who is the latest idiot going around doing PVP scams.

Rofl, I just find that absolutely hilarious...Can people accept anything without...well, WHINING about it?

[conavar]

Just change the name to " Bagjumpers and Scammers"

 

and then delete any PK based posts unless they are about a PvP killing his partner ( which even Pkers mostly agree is outlawish)

 

Any other Pk posts are just whining

[Mar(c)]

It obviously was grossly misnamed in the first place and for that I do apologize.

And it is at least as grossly misnamed now, do you apologize for that as well?

Molime has put it very well:

I've always considered outlaws forum mostly a place to warn others about certain behaviour. As has been said in this topic, not everyone will attack pvp'ers, or merc runners, or hydro runners, or (fill in). It's just good to know when you're relatively safe when you see someone approach, or best to leave the area right away. I think what is or isn't considered 'outlaw' in the sense of this forum, is a matter of personal opinion. I don't think it matters if it's a 'majority' of the community who thinks a certain way. People with similar opinions will agree, feel warned, great, over and done with and move on.

No and here is why. People seem to have NO problem calling other players bad, mean, unfair, evil, immoral, etc etc etc when something does not go their way in EL and posting their complaints publicly including the flames and insults and trying to ruin that person's reputation in the name of "warning" others. However if in return somebody calls them a whiner or baby or cheerleader or whatever...look how badly they take it. As I stated, it was to prove a point. It was not directed at anyone personally. Labels work both ways and are equally unpleasant both directions. I fail to see why somebody has more right to insult somebody who PK's on a PK map than that same PKer has the right to call that complainer a whiner.

If there are flames and insults, deal with that.

Don't call all the people warning eachother whiners.

A lot of the truely whining posts are not the ones warning for dishonorable PK'ing.

Again, like molime said, people with similar opinions will agree, feel warned, great, over and done with and move on.

People on the opposite side of the scale tend to tumble over eachother whining that it's all part of the game -- which is true, but wasn't the point of the outlaws forum (see again Molime's words above).

 

Now you suddenly decide that the word "outlaw" is a huge insult.

It has never been, or was at least never intended that way, IMNSHO.

 

With that being said, leaves me to bold the part of Vanyel's post that I agree with, I don't even feel addressed in the slightest way by the rest of his post:

Hah, it's somehow funny people are all ok with calling others Outlawers and are getting very irritated when called Whiners.

Interesting experiment. Results aren't a big surprise, though. Nothing more could've been expected, honestly. We so love labelling others. Pretty funny to feel better than others, isn't it? They are Outlawers! They are Whiners! They are admins!!!!!1~ They are, omfg!, they are moderators!!!1~ Oh well... labels are entertaining.

I'd suggest renaming the forums to something as neutral as possible. I know our, omfg1!!! they are, ADMINS!!!11~ will come up with something interesting.

[Logger]

PK is PK, nuff sed

[Inglor]

I believe that PVPers should be left alone. Same with FF. But having said this you do enter a PKing area at your own risk.

Posting the attack of a PVPer or a FF in the outlaws forum is saying to watch your back should this person be around, more than normal.

Believe that it should be posted as more of a warning that anything else. Then again I do not attack, PVPers, FFers, Harvesters or naked people that happen to be exploring the map. I normally do not attack at all for I get in plenty of fights without it, normally from people a lot stronger then I am, might have to change that policy:)

[Mar(c)]

PK is PK, nuff sed

A blue balloon is a blue balloon.

And my statement adds as much to the discussion as Logger's.

 

To Peino: try not to feel attacked by Entropy's nicely put words, those weren't adding anything constructive to the discussion either.

At least you posted your opinion in a polite and constructive way.

[robotbob]

Don't call all the people warning each other whiners.

 

[snip]

 

Now you suddenly decide that the word "outlaw" is a huge insult.

It has never been, or was at least never intended that way, IMNSHO.

 

You really need to read Aislinn's post again, the point is: no one has an absolute right to name\insult\label

another party without being subjected to the same. So you cannot take offense to 'whiner' and feel

another label is justified. So instead of reading it, you just take offense to whiner, and turn around and

wonder why people have issues with -another- label ? But again reread her post, she said it better.

 

People on the opposite side of the scale tend to tumble over eachother whining that it's all part of the game

which is true, but wasn't the point of the outlaws forum (see again Molime's words above).

 

Now you suddenly decide that the word "outlaw" is a huge insult.

It has never been, or was at least never intended that way, IMNSHO.

 

Did you miss the: She created it, Named it, Renamed it to prove a point part?

So if anyone knows what it 'intended to be', perhaps she may actually know what it was intended for?

(to consolidate complaining I'm guessing)

 

So lets call it Complaint Dept, Whine&CheeseFest, Flame Wars, Insult-o-rama or the WideWorldofNeenerNeener.

 

P.S.

Not that I agree in anyway with the trust violation behaviors of several actors in the 'Whiners Forum', I think its equally

fair to warn people that PlayerA will cry for 30 minutes if you pk him\her. Its a valuable time saver for many pkers

that are tired of #ignore'ing everyone\everytime.

[conavar]

Not that I agree in anyway with the trust violation behaviors of several actors in the 'Whiners Forum', I think its equally

fair to warn people that PlayerA will cry for 30 minutes if you pk him\her. Its a valuable time saver for many pkers

that are tired of #ignore'ing everyone\everytime.

 

The thing is though, apart from the trust violation issues of PvP partner attacking is there any need to warn people about " You might be pked on a pk map" ?

 

IMO no the game gives you ample warning everytime you enter a map, no need to try and Demonize a pker by posting him/her in outlaws.

 

lol seriously you dont need to warn ppl most PKers will admit to it " Hey you enter a PK map I might attack you"

[Ateh]

still none of this changes that whoever posts in there now will be called a Whining S.O.A.B who is wasting everyones time.

 

Doesnt seem right at all, what happens if by chance a new player gets lured into PK , or is scammed of over 100k worth of stuff ( like I was when I was pretty new ) are they now considered a whiner ?

 

The point has obviously been proven that PK related issues rarely make for a worthy Outlaws post, but I think its time to come up with a better name for that section.

 

And the whole argument about Outlaw being slander so you have to change it is kind of going to get you stuck in an everlasting loop of political correctness , especially if you change it from Outlaws to Whiners.

 

Because surely whiners should not be called whiners because its offensive to them ? Perhaps the least offensive name possible for that section of the forums would be :

 

Non Gender Persons Of No Definable Race or Religion Possibly, Or Possibly Not Depending On If Anyone Gets Offended Commiting Acts Deemed Offensive ( or possibly not ) To Persons Of No Definable Gender, Race or Religion : Post Here For the Purposes of Informing of an Act ( that could possibly be , or maybe not if the person who did it gets offended ) Considered Offensive ( but not too offensive in case it offends anyone )

 

*edit* changed the amount i was scammed for LOL

Edited May 13, 2008 by Ateh

[Entropy]

still none of this changes that whoever posts in there now will be called a Whining S.O.A.B who is wasting everyones time.

 

Doesnt seem right at all, what happens if by chance a new player gets lured into PK , or is scammed of over 100k worth of stuff ( like I was when I was pretty new ) are they now considered a whiner ?

 

If you get scammed of 400K worth of stuff it means you are not a n00b and you really should know better. If you complain about getting scammed like that, I wouldn't be surprised for some to call you a whiner.

 

[edit] Didn't see you edited your amount.

[Tsunami96306]

Posting a PK`ers name in outlaws for killing you doesn`t really mean much to the PK`er other than perhaps a good laugh...

 

I say more power to them if thats what they choose to do....perhaps let other players know who to look out for when they enter a PK map....

 

but just an FYI......watch out for everyone if your in a PK map, only makes sence.

[peino]

PK is PK, nuff sed

A blue balloon is a blue balloon.

And my statement adds as much to the discussion as Logger's.

 

To Peino: try not to feel attacked by Entropy's nicely put words, those weren't adding anything constructive to the discussion either.

At least you posted your opinion in a polite and constructive way.

Thanks. I don't feel attacked by Entropy. The day Entropy doesn't come into one of these arguments just to bite one or two people in the ankles will dawn a new world for me.

 

And none of it matters, really. The impression I walk away with is this: A few PKers have spent this whole day whining about how horrible it is to be called outlaw -- and also misrepresenting what people have been saying about outlawry in general -- yet they are not the ones called whiners. Instead, to "prove a point," a few (maybe just two) people with some authority in the game feel it is okay to insult a wide range of players, most of whom have nothing to do with this argument but who all now get to be labeled as whiners even if their grievance with a player is legitimate. As far as I'm concerned, this pretty much puts us all in our place, lets us know whose input is wanted and whose isn't. Fine. I can continue to enjoy myself in the fiction forums -- a nice creative exercise, that, which doesn't need to matter to anyone but me -- and not kid myself that I'm a part of a game community here.

 

Ciao, all.

[boognish]

Players who kill other players for no reason other than to take their stuff are outlaws.

When i go to the store i don't expect to get jacked, even if i have to walk through the hood.

 

"Spawn serping" is far from an outlawish act but people cry about it in the forum too.

Now the topic of the forum doesn't make any sense, just delete it all together (no more whining)

[Drue]

From the standpoint of a "hypothetical society", I can certainly see a justification for this sort of thinking.. after all, unless a state of war or whatnot is declared, and the attacking force is a representative of one of the warring parties attacking a member of the opposing faction, almost any society would construe the attack as an "attempt at murder".. and thus relegate the attacker to the position of an "outlaw".

 

Yes, I agree with you, but in this society, going on a PKing area is an implicit declaration of war to everyone around you that is not part of your guild or an allied guild.

 

That may indeed be the case, Entropy.. I'll be the first one to admit that, as a newbie, I'm far from an expert on the game culture.. However, I am certain that a number of players may view things through a slightly different lens. Now, not to be questioning the interpretation of the dude who *built* the game, but just for the sake of discourse, I can see one particular problem in that notion, mainly that there are inherently other reasons for going into a PK map. Some items are *only* harvestable in pk maps, and thus people *could*, theoretically, have reasons for being in one other than PK.. kinda takes the "implicit" out of it, after a fashion.

 

I don't have a problem with the way it's set up.. and I have no real problems with people getting pk'd in pk maps.. I mean, that's what they're there for, no? The ideas I put forth in terms of "outlawry" are simply a subset of behaviors that occur in PK that I find to be dishonorable, and some folk appear to agree with me. Now, unless I'm gravely mistaken... with the Outlaws forum being a place of chiding for people who violate "Social Rules".. there are no *game* penalties for being an Outlaw.. just *social* penalties. As such, it is up to each individual to determine whether or not to trust a person, or to trade with the, or whatnot, based upon the person's actions and the individual's values..

 

There doesn't even necessarily need to be a consensus on what constitutes "outlawry", simply because there is no (to my knowledge), game-based penalty for being an "outlaw". As any "penalty" would be a social one, each individual, as a part of the "society", decides what, if anything, to do about it. Unless people get banned for bag jumping or other such bits, it makes no real difference what constitutes an "outlaw", provided they're not breaking actual *game* rules.

 

If you look at the responses.. Some people may agree with my "outlaw" behaviors.. some of those people, depending on the severity and scope of such behaviors, might decide not to trade or interact with such an "outlaw". A great many other folk, however, who espouse a more "you're in a pk map, anything goes" attitude, obviously wouldn't care in the slightest... So any sort of "social penalty" would obviously be minor.

 

And even in my "list of dishonorables"... I want to be clear that I hold that opinion only on an individual level.. Any kind of faction-based conflict, such as guild wars or something... that changes the picture.. If somebody's an enemy, murder to your heart's delight.. lol

 

It's just my take on the matter, but most of it sounds like a case of "What's in a name?"

[Ateh]

oh well looks like we have a new stance when it comes to Bjing and scamming then.

 

Cant wait to see all the new guilds that get created for the purpose of pissing us all off by being idiots and using the '' stfu whiner '' line at anyone who dares complain

[korrode]

Players who kill other players for no reason other than to take their stuff are outlaws.

When i go to the store i don't expect to get jacked, even if i have to walk through the hood.

 

"Spawn serping" is far from an outlawish act but people cry about it in the forum too.

Now the topic of the forum doesn't make any sense, just delete it all together (no more whining)

omfg u people need to stop comparing your EL char walking an EL PK map with your RL self walking the RL streets.

 

EL is a game. The PK areas are designed for people to go into and kill players.

 

IMO, If anything, spawn serping is the most outlaw thing a player can do, as unlike every single other thing ever posted in Outlaws, no amount of intelligence or changing of your game-play style can stop a person from doing it to you.

If someone shows up and spawn serps me, there is absolutely nothing i could have done different to prevent it from happening.

 

Where as being PK'd, or bagjumped, or scammed could all be prevented by either more cautious (and perhaps that means slower) playing method or intelligence.

 

edit:typos :S

Edited May 14, 2008 by Korrode