High money drop monsters on PK maps.

[conavar]

If you count the cooldown of the feasting potion, you can't make more than 1800 SRs per hour which is totally unreachable anyway. So it's very hard to go over 120k xp per hour. According to this, you can also do the same by serping/training weaker monsters and win a good amount of gc while breaking/using very little stuff, isn't it?

 

killing weaker monster for drops is an option for some ( Trolls are great because of the insane amount of books they drop) but it also puts at a disadvantage players who are at the right level to train those weaker mobs, but cant because high levels are drop farming, even ts'ed -19 I would be lucky to get 20k xp an hour let alone 120k xp.

 

Its about trying to make the game fair for all trainers, not just a few at the expense of buggering up players trying to train below you, by taking there spawns

 

Trolls TBH are a perfect example of a weak monster dropping a lot more than a stronger one's , just from my experience ( which is limited past Dchims) trolls drop alot more than fluffs,feros,dchims etc . most games reward advancement, but drop wise EL doesnt

[Learner]

Keep in mind that training a skill can very different then how to profit best from a skill. Most skills, the best way to train is not the best way to profit, and the stuff that gets you the most profit isn't the best way to level up.

 

To me, that means any monster good for training on, should not be a good source of income for a fighter.

[conavar]

To me, that means any monster good for training on, should not be a good source of income for a fighter.

 

lol

 

Most monsters up to Cycs are great for training on for the right levels and have great drops, it just seems when you get to Cycs and above you are being penalized for advancing

 

Edit: Tbh I dont think anyone is asking to go back to the days of Uber NMT drops from fluffs etc, but hey just slightly increase the drops and rate and make said drops either usefull to the person getting them or marketable.

ie : Add the odd COL/COM or piece of armour or removal stone to yeti's,giants or AC's as a rare drop, add red capes, Emp's, diss rings, damage rings etc etc to fluff/cycs/feros .... etc

 

IMO the drops dont have to make the trainer money as long as he can use them to save money

Edited April 18, 2008 by conavar

[extrapolation]

You cant say all the PKers/risk-taking trainers will get rich from this, like everyone would from an NPC buying flowers @100gc each, because the spawns are a finite resource.

 

If you don't like every monster in PK maps dropping lots of gold, then let just pk fluffy rabbit spawns drop 2x or 3x gold or something. I can think of approx. 10 fluffy rabbits in pk areas, if just these 10 dropped more gc, it would not impact the economy, and those willing to risk adding another brick to the castle can maybe dream of breaking even on their training.

[Tempest]

Keep in mind that training a skill can very different then how to profit best from a skill. Most skills, the best way to train is not the best way to profit, and the stuff that gets you the most profit isn't the best way to level up.

 

To me, that means any monster good for training on, should not be a good source of income for a fighter.

yeh right, but mixers making gc + exp without any danger of dieing/breaking armor is perfectly ok right.

cmon you can't be serious, fighting skill is good for exp, but the exp you get doesnt do anything cause several things got implemented which decreased PK much. and the more exp = the higher monster, and ent made all monsters higher than feros break tons of armor. great.

the gc we get is a joke, a real joke, while mixers can click on a button and get all they need.

EL is a GAME (afaik) and i always thought it's about making it fun for everyone, and not about "omg 1kgc to much ingame what an abuse we need to make more money loss skills!!!"

 

EDIT: well, in the end we cant do anything at all, it's all your decision (devs). but hey, people cant spend something they don't have. And once the people get tired of losing more gc than they get, ent won't have bricks for his castle anymore at all

Edited April 18, 2008 by Tempest

[Khalai]

I concur with conavar.

 

It's not so long ago, since I have switched from ogres to cyclopses and the change is remarkable.

I have killed more than 3500 ogres, yet 300 cyclopses have broken more armor than those ogres. (1 col per 3k ogres and the same on 300 cyclopses)

When I was on ogres, I had no trouble of leaving the spawn with 3kgc, 500 bones and plenty of swords and hammers as drops, hence replenishing my loss for SRs and HEs (which I make myself) very fast.

Now on cyclopses, I am broke, fear of loss of another CoL (I now train in human 3 armor, to prevent more losses, however, I cannot stay on spawn so long, too much healing needed).

This is certainly not right. Back on orcs and ogres, training was fun and I actually was able to make some tiny net profit. On cyclopses, it's pain and I have heard so many times, that up there on fluffs and feroses, it not going to get better.

 

So a little story of cyclops trainer and I am sure, I am not alone, but from many.

[Tempest]

nah ur definitly not alone. you got some tiny profit out of ogres cuz they drop average gc, like fluff, and those swords/hammers which are nice to sell at NPC. (nice = 200-350gc) but cyclops.. well. you get sucky GC there, tons of hits cuz it has high physique, and basicly nothing except some useless books. btw, fluffys/feros even drop worse :> (didnt mean worse than clops, i meant worse than ogres)

 

SO, the more exp a fighter gets the less drops he gets. what a great motivation to go into PK and lose rostos don't you think so? especially when you think about that you need to train 5~ hours for a rosto, if you don't break anything and you get lucky drops.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Tempest

[Dago]

Keep in mind that training a skill can very different then how to profit best from a skill. Most skills, the best way to train is not the best way to profit, and the stuff that gets you the most profit isn't the best way to level up.

 

To me, that means any monster good for training on, should not be a good source of income for a fighter.

 

will there be adjustments due to the attribute cap?

[masterpiter]

Well, im just glad we came to some conclusions, like for example: pkers r greedy, and they got too much money

[Tempest]

Well, im just glad we came to some conclusions, like for example: pkers r greedy, and they got too much money

[/sarcasm] ?

[Lorlen]

Well, im just glad we came to some conclusions, like for example: pkers r greedy, and they got too much money

 

True, False.

 

Always greedy, never had any large amounts of money though. I always made my own supplies, or traded for them, only had 100kgc+ a few times. Loads of items? Yes, but that doesn't make you rich

[TirunCollimdus]

Learner's arguments all are attacking a/d training and not referencing back to PK. Yes if you give a/d trainers good drops they get money plus awesome experience. If you think that is a problem then you are not taking into account, as Tempest has said, Entropy has made the higher level monsters absolutely smash through armor. Telling high level players to drop down to weaker creatures to make money is possibly the worst suggestion ever. How often are ogre spawns open with players that have the right levels fighting them??? Now you want ALL of the higher level fighters on them too??? I guess the ogre trainers drop back to unarmed male orcs and the unarmed male orc fighters go back to gargoyles and gargolye trainers go back to wolves and wolf trainers go back to IP???

 

I went through that whole list because someone on the development team has to understand that telling players to fight below their level is a great way to ruin the game. Telling players to go down to make money is taking the easy way out and trying to dodge the problem instead of solve it...... unless you are going to double the number of spawns??? Please. If you are not going to increase the drops for high level monsters and continue letting them break armor like nobody's business then something has to give somewhere. There has to be money for fighters besides just using other skills.

 

Increasing drops in PK is a fair solution. It means players can stay on monsters they are the right level to train at the risk of being attacked and actually making some money. This money can pay for PK and encourage PK at the same time. If players want to risk getting PKed just to get some money while training a/d then they deserve that money. Tempest and the other PKers are right. Even Learner admits there is no money to be made by high level fighters. No money means no PK. You cannot get around or away from this. Give PKers a chance to have fun or tell them to find another game. It is time to listen to the PKers and stop punishing them for getting experience. The attribute cap should have increased PK but no one can afford to PK anymore with all of the drops gone.

 

Tirun

Edited April 18, 2008 by TirunCollimdus

[Tempest]

Increasing drops in PK is a fair solution. It means players can stay on monsters they are the right level to train at the risk of being attacked and actually making some money. This money can pay for PK and encourage PK at the same time. If players want to risk getting PKed just to get some money while training a/d then they deserve that money. Tempest and the other PKers are right. Even Learner admits there is no money to be made by high level fighters. No money means no PK. You cannot get around or away from this. Give PKers a chance to have fun or tell them to find another game. It is time to listen to the PKers and stop punishing them for getting experience. The attribute cap should have increased PK but no one can afford to PK anymore with all of the drops gone.

 

Tirun

just wanna comment this 1 sentence. i totally agree (with the rest of the post too ;p), 2 money loss skills have been implemented, and all the other things have been done to get the gc out of the game. you shouldn't even care a shit at all about 10 fluffys or so dropping like 2-3x of their normal drops. it's like 0,005% of the gc in EL, if not even less.

[conavar]

TBH just making PK creatures drop more , wont work imo, it needs to be done across the board.

 

Why wouldnt it work ?

 

 

People make a loss training as it is ( unless you get a very very rare find) so the potential x2 or 3 gain on PK maps isnt worth the potential extra loss ( rosto's, armour breaks etc).. granted you can diss/tele as soon as you are attacked but then that defeats the purpose of making pk mobs drop more

[TirunCollimdus]

My idea is to make the PK drops 4~5 times more than normal. Dis and run is possible but if PKers try to serp spawns or just hang around a spawn then people can come back with groups of friends and go after that PKer. They already ruined drops on all the high level monsters on purpose. I doubt you are going to get them to reverse that decision. Being PK the spawns cannot be controlled all day by anyone. The increase is to give a chance for more gold for at least limited amounts of time. There are tons of spawns in PK. If it can be attached to PK then monsters that wander into arenas would drop more too.

 

There is no way that PKers would be able to sit every spawn and they wouldn't want to because they would want to be drop fighting on some of the spawns themselves. This will get a LOT more players into PK maps and good money could be had even it if you couldn't keep a spawn 6 hours at a time. I even suggested that the number of spawns in PK could be increased if needed to make the idea work. Just how many spawns are in PK? It has to be a ton. I don't see everyone getting to a spawn getting attacked and then leaving instantly. There just aren't enough players to cover every spawn in PK and attack every player at a spawn in PK too. Especially since some players would be training outside of PK still, PvPing still, hunting Leonard still and even PKing each other without fighting over a spawn still.

 

They are not going to increase all drops but increasing drops in PK is reasonable and should work. The amount of the increase and the amount of spawns could change without too much trouble. I don't think more spawns are needed though.

 

Tirun

[Tempest]

yepp good point from both of you.

i think even 4-5x of the drops won't damage the economy even a bit. more rostos will be lost for sure, and not all spawns will be camped at (and if, be sure there will be Pkers which make em even lose more rostos, and thats what we want... PK). so there won't be too much money income which could "ruin" the economy "once more/again".

 

what i ask myself tho is... why ent didn't comment a single bit of this thread. could we please have some feedback why only money loss stuff gets implemented and no money income, if possible? thx.

[conavar]

I totally understand what you are trying to do Tirun and Im all for making PK more active, but I dont think just making PK mobs and no others drops more will drastically increase PK action.

Granted it might pick up for a bit to start with, then players will get bored/fed up of being attacked and go back to normal spawns ( which doesnt solve the problem of them having no money to PK ).and the chance of players being attacked is greatly increased if the "PK drops" work like you suggested.

TBH after the novelty has worn off I can see it just being a few high levels and the rest back to normal = nothing solved

 

 

Take fluffs for example, average drop what 0-40 gold x5 0-200 gold per drop , that would be over 70 fluffs at max drop just to replace a rosto if you lost one.

 

 

I just dont want a quick fix (like some people thought oldschool TD would be) then have it blow up in our face 2 months later

Edited April 18, 2008 by conavar

[The_Piper]

I wont call that a quick fix.

 

PKers (and others too) need money obviously.

 

If, like Pest said, the drop value of creatures in PK maps is increased by 5 times, ppl might go on PK maps to make money by killing those creatures. So there are more ppl on pk maps then, which is exactly you all are asking for.

 

But if nobody is trying to make money by killing creatures on PK maps, but still is harvesting and selling to NPC's, no harm to the game/economy is done. The mosters are just there and nobody get 4-5x drops.

 

So such a change would be only postive or nothing, but not negative.

 

If ppl go more on PK maps, to get 5x better drops from creatures, fine, more ppl on PK maps.

 

If not, then not, no harm is done to the game IMO.

 

Piper

[conavar]

If not, then not, no harm is done to the game IMO.

 

Piper

 

O yeah no harm in trying I agree , but I very much doudt just increasing PK mob drops and no others will be the saving grace of PK on its own

[Vanyel]

I can't agree more with conavar.

On the other hand he said exactly what I was trying to said.

[bitter digression]

Maybe if he says it people will actually read what he wrote? After all I'm just a lil' PKers hater who has no other aim in life then making PKers life miserable.

[/bitter digression]

Edited April 19, 2008 by Vanyel

[masterpiter]

Oki, simple examples from the game where u can see if giving something to pk helped or not:

 

1) KF with ants and mercury before it needed hazmat sto- helped a lot coz ppl went to get mercury and kill ants- some other ppl went there to kill mercury runners and other ppl (stronger ones)went to kill ppl who kill mercury runners and ants.

 

2) Hulda map- about 2 times more drops than on non-pk maps but a lot of fights, and deaths

 

3) PK server double/tripple ogres- crazy fast exp with awesome drops but u had to fight over them all the time, often u needed to ask guildies to come and help u to keep or conquer spawn, even with 1 second cooldown, w/o jsocs or cols or any shit like that ppl died a lot coz they fought a lot- big exp+ awesome drops lured them.

 

4) PK spawns in sun-tzu day- bigger exp reward than in normal day and also no1 will serp ur spawn so ppl still go there even if couple others w8ing for them and (trying to)kill them

 

 

mp

[asgnny]

"we want more level capped arenas" -- so a few fighters with short-sighted attributes can 'pwn' trainers and all-arounders. Great.

"we want more drops from monsters in pk" -- so a few (albeit more) fighters with short-sighted attributes can 'pwn' trainers and all-arounders. Great.

 

If you really want to liven up PK, eliminate exp from guild maps (which will of course not happen).

 

Giving more gc to "PK" fighters would do nothing more than inflate prices for anybody that did not use the PK spawns.

It's a nice thought wherein players are enticed into PK spawns, and lose their added gc to rostogols. In practice, I'd imagine the same PKers who already strut around in fancy weapons and armor will earn even more gc, while the weaker (or simply non-PKer) fighters will be condemned to a life of poverty. With the stronger players earning gc at an accelerated rate, inflation would result, meaning the weaker players (effectively) earn less gc than they do now.

 

For those players casually tossing around the idea of quintuple drops from monsters in PK... the end result would be an undesirable paradigm shift of the entire economy, with a possible side effect of more rostogols used until people get sick of dying umpteen times a week to the same few strong players.

 

If every player were online and active 24/7, then this idea could perhaps help. Given that the volume of players fluctuates throughout the day, some players would be able to consistently farm gc without interruption, whereas players who play in busier times would no sooner arrive at a spawn than be PK'ed by someone twice his levels. This would create a huge imbalance before long, with no means to self-correct the problem.

[masterpiter]

For those players casually tossing around the idea of quintuple drops from monsters in PK... the end result would be an undesirable paradigm shift of the entire economy, with a possible side effect of more rostogols used until people get sick of dying umpteen times a week to the same few strong players.

Would be cool to see the deaths from hulda, so we would see if strongest players ingame with best possible equipment dont die there or maybe they die like every1 else, even to much weaker players, losing a lot of rostos

 

Better drops from monsters on pk is just alternative to harvesting.

If some1 wants to make money semi afk w/o risk he goes harvest, some1 else wants some action and he doesnt mind big risk he should have possibility to make money too- preferably higher money from harvester since risk is way bigger, thats all

 

And about the big exp issue- solution is simple- make pk mobs give 10 times less exp per hit/block but way bigger money drops- so no1 will have excuse- " u dont make gold but u get crazy exp".

PKers normally dont care about exp that much since more exp wont make them able to pk, more gold coins will

If u r 105a/d or 110a/d its almost the same, weapons/armors make huge difference tho

 

mp

[TirunCollimdus]

"we want more level capped arenas" -- so a few fighters with short-sighted attributes can 'pwn' trainers and all-arounders. Great.

TirunThe level capped arena discussion is focusing on having arenas that will allow PK one on one all the way up to levels high enough to compete with the highest level players. This is to encourage leveling not to encourage arena campers. There are ways to keep people from making a character for each arena and camping. This is about PKing without getting pawned at every step not about long term character builds.

 

"we want more drops from monsters in pk" -- so a few (albeit more) fighters with short-sighted attributes can 'pwn' trainers and all-arounders. Great.

TirunYou must have missed the part where the players who are actually fighting the higher level monsters and obviously have the correct builds for PK have no drops to speak of compared to the armor breakage. Training past ogres will not make you money no matter what build you have. Did you also miss the part about how many spawns there actually are in PK? Right now PKers complain there is so much PK area in the game that you don't even see other PKers. It has nothing to do with character builds.

 

If you really want to liven up PK, eliminate exp from guild maps (which will of course not happen).

TirunPeople pay $200 for the privilege of having these maps so no the experience you get on them will not be eliminated. Why even bring it up?

 

Giving more gc to "PK" fighters would do nothing more than inflate prices for anybody that did not use the PK spawns.

It's a nice thought wherein players are enticed into PK spawns, and lose their added gc to rostogols. In practice, I'd imagine the same PKers who already strut around in fancy weapons and armor will earn even more gc, while the weaker (or simply non-PKer) fighters will be condemned to a life of poverty. With the stronger players earning gc at an accelerated rate, inflation would result, meaning the weaker players (effectively) earn less gc than they do now.

TirunWe would assume that the players trying to take advantage of this would actually be wearing rostos. Therefore if they die they won't loose the extra gold they have already earned. Right? The object is to use dis rings etc and learn how to get away from PKers without losing rostos all the time so that it is worth doing. Making friends with PKers who can surprise your would be attacker is also a possibility even if it means hiring them too. Free gold for the PKer if no one comes and the chance to PK someone worth PKing too. Just because it is possible that players will get pawned doesn't mean they will.

 

For those players casually tossing around the idea of quintuple drops from monsters in PK... the end result would be an undesirable paradigm shift of the entire economy, with a possible side effect of more rostogols used until people get sick of dying umpteen times a week to the same few strong players.

TirunGreater player interaction with PKers hiding at spawns that are being used so they can jump other PKers whether they are getting paid to or just doing it to fight the players they want to fight. Can I see the number of spawns in PK compared to the number of 100s a/d PKers please? I didn't think that even with all of them on at once they could be at every spawn. The idea that they could run around PKing everyone at every spawn does not seem feasible. Even it was by some great stretch possible how could they do it without running into other PKers doing the same thing or actually hunting the hunters?

 

TirunTempest has constantly said that if PKers don't have more money in PK then they will just harvest for it. They get money one way or the other. Why not let them get it in PK instead of harvesting? How can there be inflation when the PKers are just trading getting money in PK instead of harvesting? If they are actually there to get money then how could they be running around to kill the weaker PKers who won't be at the spawns that these higher level players actually need to get the kind of money they want?

 

If every player were online and active 24/7, then this idea could perhaps help. Given that the volume of players fluctuates throughout the day, some players would be able to consistently farm gc without interruption, whereas players who play in busier times would no sooner arrive at a spawn than be PK'ed by someone twice his levels. This would create a huge imbalance before long, with no means to self-correct the problem.

You have said that the high level players would pawn all of the weak ones. How can having more players online change that? It means more high level players to kill the lower level players. If your idea that this would happen is right then how could having more players online possibly make this idea work? How can it be that people can be able to consistently farm the gold coin as you say at the end of the post when you spend the rest of it saying that it will only benefit the PKers who can pawn them?

 

There is no way the maps in both Seridia and Irilion can have all of their spawns covered by uber PKers. Even if they PKers wanted to just hunt lower level players they would be spending their money for nothing getting from place to place since almost no one would be fighting for drops without a rosto. The higher level fighters would be better off trying to get spawns of their own in PK areas. As Tempest said about KF there were always people hunting the hunters and that would be the same on every PK map for players trying to hunt people at the spawns. There is no way this would provide no risk PK for anyone. People can make allies with guilds that team the highest level players too. They can actually be decoys setting traps for higher level players. This is not going to be a free ride for anyone.

[kl4Uz]

KF is so dead it's sad. Last week (Sun Tzu day) I was training in KF for over an hour on the fluff - and I hardly saw two people. And I searched every single other fluffy spawn first, there were waiting lines.

 

I bet if the monsters in KF would have given any form of advantage, such as more gc as suggested here, or maybe 10% more exp, people would fight for these spawns. Maybe even come in gangs to protect someone training in there, or to gang trainers etc.

 

Btw. I'm sick of hearing all this "you pkers/fighters are so evil rich", because it's a generalization that is simply not true. Of course there are the ebul rich ones, but there are poor bastards too. And pk is mostly a loss, nothing else.