Sponsoring Instances

[Kaddy]

You guys just act like a fighter suggested this and wanted free stuff from mixers. A mixer suggested that, and I really appriciate Lexi for it and I liked the idea (Doesn't mean I want free stuff, I can afford stuff myself.) because it would calm the fight between fighters and mixers a little bit. Figthers would use the stones for mixers, mixers would fund the fighters for the stones, it's simple.

 

And I already posted my opinions but seems like there were too much flames/argues going on noone have read my post. It's very very very simple;

 

Fighter teams go to WTF instances, when they get stone(s) they put in their bots;

Mixers make teams, like US EU Asia timezones and buy the stones as teams, so that they can use the stones for their time zone and best time for their team.

 

Mixers win, because the special days (esp joule) gives you "nice" advantage and save from food cost

Fighters win, because they can sell their stones easily and split the gc easily so they can buy stuff from mixers to run more instances

Mixers win again they sell their goods,

Fighters win again because with the stuff they bought, they can run another instances,

 

 

Why can't you (both fighters and mixers, you know who you are.) just stop complaining, stop bitching flaming to eachother and try to make this nice suggestion better? If you see a problem in this suggestion, tell us how to get it better.

 

Endless complaining never gets us any further than we are at.

 

 

 

 

-Kaddy.

 

EDIT# Typo.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Kaddy

[Rajun]

first off how does any1 know how much instance experience any1 has,i dont want to help in wtf im trying to get a mixer instance going for my lvls no1 elses cept the team i go with.i want a scholars stone so all benefit and wth did i tell some1 to live in a different time zone,wait ill stay so i fall asleep lose rostos and others benefit.

btw all who read this want a flame if not why post about it.its type here or go watch wiggles ur choice

Edited February 16, 2011 by xTc

[themuntdregger]

Some of the replies here makes me scared on what the world will be once it hits the fan... If people can't even work together in a game, how will it ever happen in real life? I know it's just a game, and this post is slightly off topic, but stuff like this is going on in the world as I type... people just are hurting themselves by not willing to work together.

 

But I really understand why people are against the idea too, I really do, it's just sad the way we've all become. I am sorry I made this post sound hurtful, I am just REALLY surprised in the poll results, heh 27/34 mixers/all rounders are against helping ANY fighter... I am sure at least half of you have a guildie or a friend who fights in an instance...???

 

I am not trying to bash anyone, I respect your vote, and opinion, I honestly do, I am just highly surprised is all.

I think the problem is threefold. One, your voting options are too limited. Second, they are worded in a way that sounds mean and you are assuming people are thinking as you worded it. Third, most "pure" fighters want to bypass the rest of the game to JUST fight and that tends to annoy everyone else. It also is the major reason for character buying and gc buying for rl money, which is another massively large bone of contention in EL.

 

Now that said, most people here already do help each other. But the idea of "sponsoring" a fighter is kind of like saying "Here, give me stuff and pay for me to have a good time because my time is more valuable than yours to waste it earning what I need in other ways, even though that is the way the game was intended to be played.", as has already been noted.

 

I think another problem is, there have been way too many instances of scams both ingame stuff and real life money by "fighters" lately, and it is pretty risky to trust these days. People will help their friends and people they KNOW they can trust already. But fighters are getting a bad name these days because of the actions of some of them. Who is going to guarantee that some random fighter is going to honor his end of the bargain after he gets the stuff in the first place from the sponsor?

Hmmm, some interesting and very relevant points raised in this post. Plenty of opportunity for cheap shots, but the issue of 'trust' raised by Aislinn goes well beyond simple 'mixer vs fighter'. The concept of 'trust' is central to all human interaction. Without it, any structure resolves to just individual desire.

 

Mixers could be described as embodying much of human virtue, ie hard work, cooperation, subrogation of personal objectives in favor of a common goal. Thats not to say that fighters are the polar opposite. Just depends on whether they fight for something more than just themselves.

 

That said, we all fight, just not all of us with swords.

Edited February 16, 2011 by themuntdregger

[Lexi]

Seems like most people like the bot idea. We should give that a try

[Nova]

I wonder if anyone would be occasionally interested in trading ### of HE/SR (maybe EMP?) for one of the stones? Just an idea. Cut out the GC step totally. It would give a mixer team a concrete goal to work toward and would give the fighters handing over the stone HE/SR which some buy anyway for more instances or training. The HE/SR could be distributed evenly to the instance team, the mixer team could decide when to use the stone so that it best suits the most people who put in the effort. Not saying it would have to happen all the time but occasionally might be nice.

[themuntdregger]

Seems like most people like the bot idea. We should give that a try

 

And then you woke up

[nathanstenzel]

I voted that I don't care either way.

 

If people want to sponsor someone, they can, but giving something and hoping for something back will require trust. You don't know if the person will use that stone or sell it for gc. I believe Ateh might have mentioned that. Some people are generous and some people are not. Some people are trusting and some people are not.

 

I have been to a number of newb instances. I lost alot of gc worth in some and gained a bit in some others. I know at the end, there is always a scramble to figure out where to liquify the goods. A mixer investing in an instance would probably just complicate the matter unless the sponsor just a single person and then it is a matter to resolve between them after the instance is done. Sponsoring a group would just complicate it.

 

There is more ways to help an instance else than "here, take my stuff and pop a stone if you get one". Instance goers may often have a good carry capacity. Having someone mule your ingreds or help you on site can drastically increase the efficiency of any mixing project. If you have the muscle bound fighter haul stuff for you and then give them the finished goods at a reduced price (because of the reduced effort on your part thanks to their work), then that would be a good way to help the fighters reduce their costs. Harvesting ingredients and then selling to the fighters for about half price on site would also help them. They could either pay someone to mix it, mix it themselves or sell it at perhaps the inflated prices that you find in the market today. As a guild master and guild event coordinator, I know that that all of these techniques would create a great reduction in price for just a little bit of work. Everyone is happy. The people in the WTF instance would probably have about maximum carry capacity, so they can definitely be useful for a project as a hauler.

[Caliphear]

Ok CC let me get this straight.

 

We should pay you for your supplies, then give you oranges for free absolute free, to make more supplies that we have to buy anyway..

 

Also, so you know, none of this was even come up with by fighters/instancers. We didn't demand compensation for using it.

 

What wealthiest people in the game expect hand outs? We pay for practically everything, where as a lot of others expect us to drop down something that everyone can use and enjoy (don't care if you're a mixer or a fighter everyone appreciates a sun tzu) for free with with out any hesitation.

 

We're called greedy for wanting to make profit in something where mixers/harvesters pretty much have stagnant or rising profit on items they make. Most people don't make HE for sale, because less exp and less profit.. so they revert to bars and bars.

 

 

The point of hydro harvesting is.. it's supposed to be risky. It pays well, has a great market for it, so henceforth it shouldn't be easy. If hydro was made easier, more people would do them, and more people would buy PP's due to the massive amount of flow of Hydro in the game (which most people no-no about pp buying to begin with). How frequently does a perosn get killed doing hydro anyway? Very rarely have I ever seen someone camping the area. I not too long ago ventured through there harvesting a good 500+ hydro ore with out once running into someone there to kill me.

 

Getting mad at someone for killing you on a PK maps is the most BS excuse i've ever heard of for not wanting to support fighters. We get levels to kill lower level players who wander into pk maps and we're some kind of heinous assholes?

 

 

 

@Ateh

 

Shut the fu Stop. Seriously, you're attackign me personally for no reason whatsoever. This isn't my poll, this ISN'T my thread, I was posting MY opinion, and not ONCE begged/asked for a handout in ALL the instances I've done.

 

The only thing instancing did that effected the market in MY opinion was drop prices on things down to extreme lows. Which SHOULDN'T be an issue for you people considering quite a few people woudl love to get their hands on a HOLAM or an orange for a fairly decent price.

 

You're all just greedy. Seriously. We pay and pay and pay and it's never enough for you. You whine and bitch and moan daily. Complain about how boring your EL life is and then down play us and push and push to make our EL time boring. You want us to make no profit and you want us to "do something" in EL because we aren't doing what you're doing.

 

Because what we enjoy isn't what you enjoy OMFG. You want more and more and expect to give less and less.

 

You want to make some profit and GC? Get off your ass and harvest something rather than buy absolutely every ore you can get your grubby hands on because you're lazy. It might take a little longer but the pay out is a lot better.

 

I know a guy, who's one of the most rich EL'ers i've ever met, who's not a fighter in anyway shape or form, but he makes a fortune buying all but a small item that he harvests and then turns around with a profit.

Lets take Steel bars for instance.

 

Buying 8 iron / 5 coal / 3 FE per can get pricey and you see that as NO PROFIT. Which is why you charge more and more no? I don't see a damn fighter buying steel bars, so you can't blame that on us. Try buying the iron and the FE and harvesting the coal. For every bar you make (with coal at 2.2) you make 11gc profit on top of the natural small profit you'd already get.

 

When you are done stamping your feet and can talk like a big boy maybe you should try another post thats not just one big insult to anyone who doesn't see things your way. Seriously, one of the most insulting pieces I have ever read.

 

 

CC you say the instancers would give away the oranges etc.. i guess you dont realize its because of them they got so cheap as well as the rdholms which now have gone way back up because of the mixers remarks. So they were helping the mixers out.

Helms and oranges are cheap because there are so many in game because so many people run so many instances not because anyone wanted to help mixers. If helping mixers was the intention then helms and oranges would always have been a low price.

 

Dilly i dont think he was meaning ALL mixers as a lot of mixers have no clue of these bs arguements anyway. And even some mixers posting arent being confrontational on this thread just as some fighters arent.

Clarifying for someone else usually just creates more misunderstandings, not less.

 

Not once have i ever seen any of the fighters look for pity and definatly none of them are asking for handhouts. Both mixers and fighters spend gc make gc and this is all just getting to be nothing more than a bitch moan and cry fest instead of getting constructive opinions. Although dont get me wrong there are a few posts that are good. And if you look back. Inferno isnt the one who started the ranting trying to make it into the bs arguement.

No but Inferno is the one saying "you all don't want to work together for the community" Then following it up with We We We, You, You, You. Really inspires teamwork.

 

The idea is to work together as a community to get the stones so they can be used being beneficial to both sides. Not to bash each other. No one is begging for anything. As Korrode said.. show me who the fighters are who are ASKING for handouts. Inferno had even told lexi that was a bit much and for her not to get taken advantage of. Doesnt sound like asking for a handout to me.

 

And groomsh.. he is a mixer and has mixed bars upon bars upon bars among other things. And i would like to know how you get what he said is wrong. I find it amuzing just because someone is a fighter ppl think they dont mix or harvest or know what they are talking about. Some ppl actualy do both.

If they do both then why do they need handouts? The WTF instance team needs to be so big that it is fairly well impossible to be sure that donations don't go to someone who 'hates harvers' and will kill them on site at the hydro or on a daily, I think THAT is a big problem to this donation plan.

 

Also I am not really clear on what the end result is supposed to be... harver/mixers hand over a bunch of supplies to the instances in return for free joule stone? Reduced rate on joule stone? I don't think that was ever specified. What I can see from the (very well intentioned) first post is that the plan was to give over a concrete amount of supplies in return for unnamed benefits. Perhaps the vagueness of the plan is what sent this thread into such a shame spiral.

 

Most of the fighters that I talk to would much rather be paid for their stone rather then receive some supplies. Most have said it in this thread already but for some reason people are still sticking to the original plan that hasn't gained much support instead of refining it according to the general feel of the community. A community fund for the day stones seems like the best idea all around for everyone, someone just needs to come up with bot code like Korrode suggested and give it to someone who would understand how to use it and read the output of it.

 

If you still feel like you would like to help the fighters more then maybe selling to a team at a discounted rate would be better then just handing things over.

 

There are going to be more stones in game including the NEW #day stones radu added to the instance. Wether you donate to them or not. It makes no difference. No matter what the end result is.. wether donating to the fighters or to a bot its all optional and no one cares if you participate or not.

The word NEW could mean that radu is still calling the already existing tzu and joule stones new since they are the most recent addition, lets not forget to look at all the ways that phrase could be taken.

 

Now to get on topic i do have a bot that i really dont use which can be used if this is the way ppl want to go. I could empty it and ppl could donate the gc the fighters could then sell the stones to the bot. One of the ppl who donated gc would then receive the stone. Since the bot would have a list of trades we would know who donated. And i agree a set price has to be made for the stones. In order for them not to be taken and resold for a higher price. That would defeat the purpose. So lets get some CONSTRUCTIVE opinions.

There have been plenty of constructive opinions, also plenty of people who have still downplayed them since they weren't the answer they were hoping to see.

 

EDIT: If there are 2 original bots set up for the tzu and joule stone funds can they be called Jewel and Sue??? Pls Pls Pls?? On a more serious note, if there were 2 bots set up to take GC donations those bots could accept donation of raw material for the stones as well. That way people who would like to donate material don't have to hunt down the people taking donations for the stones and no one has to worry about accidentally mixing up something of their own and something for the stone in their sto.

 

I am not downplaying anyone who actualy posted civily wether they agreed or not. It's when it gets to flaming and bashing thats ridiculous. If you dont agree thats fine you dont have to accuse the fighters of something and vice versa. I know im expecting too much thinking a thread can be free of bs, You dont agree with me but i still <3 ya

 

And yes Nova Instancers are the reason there were so many Oranges and rdholms on the market which helped the mixers etc because as you see now.. they arent doing the instances and what happened to the rdholms and oranges? not many out there prices go WAY back up. Some of the instancers did this for this reason. Not mentioning any names. And some instancers DID give away oranges to ppl. And no im not talking about Inferno giving any to me because i do not have big belly.

 

And as for the the new #day stones, Radu stated there are NEW day stones, even a possibilty of a Robin Tell day stone being dropped. So yes we know what kind of stones being dropped. Well some of them. He didnt mention all of the new day stones. So there are going to be stones we didnt have before. With this said making bots for each stone i think would be a bit much. But if someone could code one for this purpose having them take all the stones i think it could work.

 

As for who gets the stone.. could it be run like the lottery and everyone who donated for stone 1, 2, or 3 would be entered for that stone?

 

*nvm the lottery idea.. i can see ppl doing it to get the said stone just to resell higher and not use it. That defeats the idea. Donate 5k get a 200k+ stone sell it, make massive profit abusing our good intentions.*

Edited February 16, 2011 by Caliphear

[Caliphear]

Seems like most people like the bot idea. We should give that a try

 

And then you woke up

 

 

Another point proven. No constructive comments just someone being sarcastic.

[forever]

Seems like most people like the bot idea. We should give that a try

 

And then you woke up

What was the purpose in this reply other than to do your usual troll stuff?

[Nova]

I am not downplaying anyone who actualy posted civily wether they agreed or not. It's when it gets to flaming and bashing thats ridiculous. If you dont agree thats fine you dont have to accuse the fighters of something and vice versa. I know im expecting too much thinking a thread can be free of bs, You dont agree with me but i still <3 ya

I never accused the fighters of anything nor the mixers. My posts have generally been that the idea has merit but there are too many flaws, too many different views. The way I see it, my posts are trying to fight BS

 

And yes Nova Instancers are the reason there were so many Oranges and rdholms on the market which helped the mixers etc because as you see now.. they arent doing the instances and what happened to the rdholms and oranges? not many out there prices go WAY back up. Some of the instancers did this for this reason. Not mentioning any names. And some instancers DID give away oranges to ppl. And no im not talking about Inferno giving any to me because i do not have big belly.

LOL don't try to tell me that they aren't running as many instances because this thread hurt their feelings. If the mass farming of the instances has slowed down, imo its a good thing. Each instance will bring more profit since there aren't so many items in game that people can have 3rd 4th and 5th back up RDHOLAMs in their sto because they are so cheap. As for some raising prices simply because some people were dissatisfied with the original suggestion put forth in this thread and stated their opinion, Boo. That really says a lot about how this idea will go if it goes forth as originally planned imo. I never said that instancers should give away oranges either btw so I don't know why you are mentioning that. Everyone should be asking what they think is fair for an item. If someone does not think it is a fair price then they should not buy it. I either earned my oranges by going on instances or bought them at a price i felt was fair.

 

 

And as for the the new #day stones, Radu stated there are NEW day stones, even a possibilty of a Robin Tell day stone being dropped. So yes we know what kind of stones being dropped. Well some of them. He didnt mention all of the new day stones. So there are going to be stones we didnt have before. With this said making bots for each stone i think would be a bit much. But if someone could code one for this purpose having them take all the stones i think it could work.

Did he say that in 6? If so I missed it and (obviously this part isn't directed at you) its just another example of the downfalls of using @@6 as a means of conveying info to the entire gaming community.

[Kaddy]

And as for the the new #day stones, Radu stated there are NEW day stones, even a possibilty of a Robin Tell day stone being dropped. So yes we know what kind of stones being dropped. Well some of them. He didnt mention all of the new day stones. So there are going to be stones we didnt have before. With this said making bots for each stone i think would be a bit much. But if someone could code one for this purpose having them take all the stones i think it could work.

Did he say that in 6? If so I missed it and (obviously this part isn't directed at you) its just another example of the downfalls of using @@6 as a means of conveying info to the entire gaming community.

 

Nope, he didn't say that in channel 6. We talked to him in our private WTF channel with our WTF team.

 

-Kaddy

[Dilly]

just a random convo from channel 6, this morning.

[08:00:57] [radu @ 6]: the robin tell stone is also a possible drop

[08:01:02] [inferno @ 6]: ;O!!!!

[08:01:02] [radu @ 6]: and so is the abd day removal

[Caliphear]

Yes nova i agree with a lot of what you said. I was not meaning you were flaming.It was others.And its not this thread that made them mad. The constant bickering is what did it. But thats not important here.

 

There are alot of flaws which need ideas posted to correct them. Flames and fighting arent going to get any results. So we both are on the same path. And i think you were afk when Radu said it in 6.

 

The biggest issue i see left is how to determine who will get the stones. maybe by community vote insuring its someone all can trust. Even if its put to a poll everytime a stone is available. This way making it possible for all time zones to participate.

 

And of couse to get someone to code a bot that can take the donations.

[saxum]

If you are going to have an instance bot then it should be located in battle hall.

 

It would be nice for some who never be able to participate in instance to view them. I asked same thing during the last KF clash but could not get guarantees of immunity worth risking a view.

[Forgiven]

I still dont get it...

 

#1 if instances are already profitable, then why are we giving them stuff

 

#2. Why cant we just buy the stuff from them like the day stones...so that way they can split gc vs. supplies

 

#3. ever noticed the nice white scaly armor, the orange cape, and the green crown on the people that do instance? most if not all are already very rich.

[Lexi]

OKay, let's stop arguing now, please. We know there are differences between 2-3 parties, and maybe even select individuals. If you're up for this whole idea, please contribute it to the planning. If most people want a bot, seek out to set one up. I don't have the knowledge NOR real money, but I am sure someone does.

 

I plan on making HEs to sell at a discount to fighters, maybe I'll make some other things also.

[Caliphear]

I still dont get it...

 

#1 if instances are already profitable, then why are we giving them stuff

 

#2. Why cant we just buy the stuff from them like the day stones...so that way they can split gc vs. supplies

 

#3. ever noticed the nice white scaly armor, the orange cape, and the green crown on the people that do instance? most if not all are already very rich.

 

Its not about the gc they make.. this is about the #DAY stones that are going to be dropped in the WTF instances. The logical idea so far is bot which all players who WISH to donate gc to can with the end result being the purchase of the #DAY stones for the community.Not just giving free stuff for no reason.

 

I will explain step by step so you can understand. i know all these posts have made it confusing.

 

• A bot gets set up that takes donations from the community for a #DAY stone
  
• People who WANT to get the stone donate gc to this bot stating which stone their donation is for
  
• The bot holds the gc for the day stone
  
• The instancers go to a WTF instance and possibly get a lets say joule stone drop
  
• They sell the stone to the said bot for a set price
  
• the stone is then given from the bot to a person who donated or was chosen by the ppl who donated
  

Edited February 17, 2011 by Caliphear

[Forgiven]

I still dont get it...

 

#1 if instances are already profitable, then why are we giving them stuff

 

#2. Why cant we just buy the stuff from them like the day stones...so that way they can split gc vs. supplies

 

#3. ever noticed the nice white scaly armor, the orange cape, and the green crown on the people that do instance? most if not all are already very rich.

 

Its not about the gc they make.. this is about the #DAY stones that are going to be dropped in the WTF instances. The logical idea so far is bot which all players who WISH to donate gc to can with the end result being the purchase of the #DAY stones for the community.Not just giving free stuff for no reason.

 

I will explain step by step so you can understand. i know all these posts have made it confusing.

 

• A bot gets set up that takes donations from the community for a #DAY stone
  
• People who WANT to get the stone donate gc to this bot stating which stone their donation is for
  
• The bot holds the gc for the day stone
  
• The instancers go to a WTF instance and possibly get a lets say joule stone drop
  
• They sell the stone to the said bot for a set price
  
• the stone is then given from the bot to a person who donated or was chosen by the ppl who donated
  

 

Ok that makes more sense to me. That is a really good idea Caliphear, i would probably donate some then if it worked like that. Maybe radu would let us host it for free because it is a community bot?

[nathanstenzel]

I still dont get it...

 

#1 if instances are already profitable, then why are we giving them stuff

 

#2. Why cant we just buy the stuff from them like the day stones...so that way they can split gc vs. supplies

 

#3. ever noticed the nice white scaly armor, the orange cape, and the green crown on the people that do instance? most if not all are already very rich.

 

Its not about the gc they make.. this is about the #DAY stones that are going to be dropped in the WTF instances. The logical idea so far is bot which all players who WISH to donate gc to can with the end result being the purchase of the #DAY stones for the community.Not just giving free stuff for no reason.

 

I will explain step by step so you can understand. i know all these posts have made it confusing.

 

• A bot gets set up that takes donations from the community for a #DAY stone
  
• People who WANT to get the stone donate gc to this bot stating which stone their donation is for
  
• The bot holds the gc for the day stone
  
• The instancers go to a WTF instance and possibly get a lets say joule stone drop
  
• They sell the stone to the said bot for a set price
  
• the stone is then given from the bot to a person who donated or was chosen by the ppl who donated
  

I would think the donaters would also like to vote for the date and time to use the stone.

[ccReynolds]

Everyone that responded to my post completely missed the point. You can't have it both ways. One option is to have a socialistic society where people make decisions on what is best based on community needs over individual needs e.g. "donating" fighting supplies to fighters and mixing supplies to mixers. The current state of the game is not anywhere remotely close to this option.

 

The other option is to let individuals decide what they want to do with items. If something is in short supply, and some people are willing to pay more than the NPC price for it so what. If you don't' like it make it yourself or get rid of the antisocial perk. If you have an item that is of no use to you, but it can help a lot of people set the price at however much you think you can get for it.

 

What I find annoying is the hypocrisy. Fighters demanding high level alcherers to make HE's at cut rate prices over bars so the fighter can instance more, is just as silly as a potioner asking high level fighter to kill on skunks and raccoons so they can level on acc/def pots. Why should people be so grateful to instancers for flooding the market with RDHLM and oranges that they mix items at cut rate prices? Were the high level fighters so grateful to the harvesters for finding nexus removal stones that they paid 5g for silver?

[Ateh]

if this is a community bot I would like access to it so I can make sure nobodys pocketing the donations

[korrode]

Were the high level fighters so grateful to the harvesters for finding nexus removal stones that they paid 5g for silver?

Guess it depends on if you define paying the better part of one million gc for the stone as being "grateful".

Edited February 17, 2011 by Korrode

[Raistlin]

Guess it depends on if you define paying the better part of one million gc for the stone as being "grateful".

I really doubt a #day stone is worth that much. Let's take the joule stone as example:

 

IF I am prepared and IF I can use full 6h of the day, how much food can I actually save?

 

Let's look into it using the favoured steel bars. I could make 12k steel bars on 1 day.

Joule day would let me use 7.2k instead of 14.4k toads (not counting poisoned), so I would

gain a gc advantage of roughly 12k compared to normal mixing. Not that bad.

 

But the reality looks different. Not that many mixers have all the ings hoarded in storage

for such amounts. So it's more like making other things like essies and so on which consume

even less food, diminishing the gc advantage even further. Or having all items mixed and

still have hours left unused. What a pity.

 

I know that the stone will be used for the community and not for individuals selfish purposes,

still it puts up the question what such a stone is really worth. Considering that farming might

drop the prices quickly to nirvana like RDHoLaM, because a joule day let's say once a week is

useless, simply because the mixers have empty storages.

 

Then the complaining will begin again about profit from instances. Endless cycle.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Edit: typos

Edited February 17, 2011 by Raistlin

[korrode]

Guess it depends on if you define paying the better part of one million gc for the stone as being "grateful".

I really doubt a #day stone is worth that much.

I never meant to imply that it would be.