Selling characters and Rule 5(1,2)

[eagleprince]

Sometimes I get bored and decide to read Outlaws. Sometimes I get even more bored and I read Bans, like I did today.

 

Upon reading one of the threads, I concluded that selling of chars is illegal, when evaluated against rule 5 - specifically, clauses 1 and 2. This is how it looks to me:-

• You strike a deal with A.N. Other to sell a char.
  
• He/She gives you some consideration, i.e. gc and/or items. This is ultimately received on an alt.
  
• You supply the password of sold char and everybody is happy. Right?
  

Now, could someone please explain how your char that received the payment has not benefitted from the sold alt? Maybe you have not transferred the storage or inventory, but it seems to me that you have transferred some measure of the resources or value of that char to your alt. IMO, this is no different than using a third party to perfore same-IP or inter-alt trading. Maybe it is significant that the sold alt does not belong to you afterwards, but I very much doubt it.

 

Of course, I may be overlooking a technicality, in which case you are quite welcome to dismiss me as a noob and ignore/delete this post.

 

EP

[Entropy]

Well, yeah, people can get banned for this, and sometimes they do.

The only way to do it legally (we don't endorse or prohibit it) is to sell it for real money, then use the money to buy stuff from the shop for your alt.

[korrode]

An exchange of resources happens. It's not like if my alt mines me 10k iron and just hands it over too me, it wont affect the economy or reduce interaction with others...

 

imo the rules on char buying and exchanging of items once the char has been sold need to be re-considered.

 

But thats just my opinion, i don't care really, cause i don't buy and sell chars (well, once ever i bought a char as an alt, i've never bought/sold my main char).

 

EDIT: changed "will never buy/sell" to "i've never bought/sold"... cause who knows what the future holds.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Korrode

[Kaddy]

Well, i thought about it for long at old times,

 

Buying/selling chars are not allowed to be done in local chat, You have to make it in private, its all ok for me.

 

But, If you buy a new char with sto and want to give all ur items to the char which u just bought, it becomes a pain because its totally ILLEGAL to trade items between chars in same IP.

 

The best way of buying/selling chars is as Ent told, to do it with real money then buy gc/stuff from shop/people. But you cant still trade your items to the new-bought char.

 

P.S i bought only one char 3 years ago

[WolfWitch]

Errm....why BUY a character in the first place?

 

Surely the whole point of the game is to make a character and level it yourself?

 

Maybe I am missing something...But Stormie (real life friend) and I have already decided that if EL is still running in 50 years time, someone sure as hell better bring us our laptops on our death beds so we can type in the kill me command, no one else will ever play our characters.

 

Seriously though, when you chose to play a game then to me buying a character is cheating, start off the same as everyone else and earn what experience and items you need. The game is about fun and most of that fun comes from leveling.

 

Let the flames begin

 

Wolfy

[korrode]

some peoples just wanna pwn PK Wolfy

How their char got strong in PK they couldn't care less, so long as it is strong.

[Superman]

Errm....why BUY a character in the first place?

 

Surely the whole point of the game is to make a character and level it yourself?

 

Maybe I am missing something...But Stormie (real life friend) and I have already decided that if EL is still running in 50 years time, someone sure as hell better bring us our laptops on our death beds so we can type in the kill me command, no one else will ever play our characters.

 

Seriously though, when you chose to play a game then to me buying a character is cheating, start off the same as everyone else and earn what experience and items you need. The game is about fun and most of that fun comes from leveling.

 

Let the flames begin

 

Wolfy

Ok.

some peoples just wanna pwn PK Wolfy

How their char got strong in PK they couldn't care less, so long as it is strong.

Yes, that's the main reason people buy accounts, from my pov, I don't see the point in spending 2 years training, to be able to PK, cos by the time that has come round, everyone else would have level'd too, it's much easier to buy a account, and join in the PK straight away. Ofc, there are those who buy/get given the accounts, and train it harder than the person who had it befor, making it much stronger. But there isn't many of those around.

 

As for being on-topic, I personally think it should be allowed to sell your character, and transfer the storage over to your new character. I don't see any harm in this, well.. Apart from the main char having some nice stuff, but thats not use training on wolfs, is it?

[Aislinn]

As for being on-topic, I personally think it should be allowed to sell your character, and transfer the storage over to your new character. I don't see any harm in this, well.. Apart from the main char having some nice stuff, but thats not use training on wolfs, is it?

Then what's the point in having rule 5? I see a new trend and considering rule 5, I can't say I like it: Make multiple characters, sell them off and give all the proceeds to the remaining alt. Even though the alts don't interact and the payoff takes a bit of time, when it finally happens, that remaining character has all that stuff on it that it didn't earn. I see a lot of people buying/selling/buying/selling and end up stronger and wealthier beyond any normal player's wildest dreams. All it does it provide a middleman that at current time is "safe". It's gotten beyond ridiculous.

[eagleprince]

As for being on-topic, I personally think it should be allowed to sell your character, and transfer the storage over to your new character. I don't see any harm in this, well.. Apart from the main char having some nice stuff, but thats not use training on wolfs, is it?

Then what's the point in having rule 5? I see a new trend and considering rule 5, I can't say I like it: Make multiple characters, sell them off and give all the proceeds to the remaining alt. Even though the alts don't interact and the payoff takes a bit of time, when it finally happens, that remaining character has all that stuff on it that it didn't earn. I see a lot of people buying/selling/buying/selling and end up stronger and wealthier beyond any normal player's wildest dreams. All it does it provide a middleman that at current time is "safe". It's gotten beyond ridiculous.

Aisy, that's precisely my point!

That's why I concluded that char selling is, or should be illegal, even if you by-pass the rules by selling for RL cash.

[Superman]

As for being on-topic, I personally think it should be allowed to sell your character, and transfer the storage over to your new character. I don't see any harm in this, well.. Apart from the main char having some nice stuff, but thats not use training on wolfs, is it?

Then what's the point in having rule 5? I see a new trend and considering rule 5, I can't say I like it: Make multiple characters, sell them off and give all the proceeds to the remaining alt. Even though the alts don't interact and the payoff takes a bit of time, when it finally happens, that remaining character has all that stuff on it that it didn't earn. I see a lot of people buying/selling/buying/selling and end up stronger and wealthier beyond any normal player's wildest dreams. All it does it provide a middleman that at current time is "safe". It's gotten beyond ridiculous.

Hmm, I never thought of it like that, I see your point now.

[Lexi]

This occurred to me a LONG time ago. I figured it was very much against the rules, so I just assumed people either broke Rule #5 and would get banned, or just sold the chars for $$$$.

 

Either way, I would never sell my main chars, even if they could sell (not a fighter/pker), I don't wish for someone to abuse the account and try scamming my friends or something.

 

Personally, if I did such thing, I would rather sell items/gc

[dom]

In every other mmorpg i have played buying/selling characters is not illegal but most people dont like it, never the less it still happens and always will. I get the idea here that that it is the same if you buy a character with your $ that you have earnt in real life, however that may be it is still time and effort that you have spent but it is still frowned upon.

 

For the buying/selling characters for in game items/gold i belive 50% of this turns into a scam. What i dont understand is why there is a line between your own time and effort and a character you have spent it on. So if you create an alt by spending time and effort on it and then sell it, why then your not allowed the profits of your time? I dont agree with people using mules to bypass the anti or hellspawn peks at all because that is cheating.

 

I would just like to know why it is against the rules to sell your own time/effort for profit as that is the fundemental rule of surviving in life

 

[Learner]

In every other mmorpg i have played buying/selling characters is not illegal but most people dont like it, never the less it still happens and always will. I get the idea here that that it is the same if you buy a character with your $ that you have earnt in real life, however that may be it is still time and effort that you have spent but it is still frowned upon.

 

For the buying/selling characters for in game items/gold i belive 50% of this turns into a scam. What i dont understand is why there is a line between your own time and effort and a character you have spent it on. So if you create an alt by spending time and effort on it and then sell it, why then your not allowed the profits of your time? I dont agree with people using mules to bypass the anti or hellspawn peks at all because that is cheating.

 

I would just like to know why it is against the rules to sell your own time/effort for profit as that is the fundemental rule of surviving in life

 

Because using one character to benefit another of your is illegal. There is no difference between using multiple alts to make gc/items for the main and leveling a char and then selling it for gc or items for the main. Both have the same result, you spend time on more then one char in order for the one char to get for gc and/or items.

[Aislinn]

I would just like to know why it is against the rules to sell your own time/effort for profit as that is the fundemental rule of surviving in life

As stated above, it's not against the rules. We do not endorse or forbid it, as obviously we cannot control it. That also is why it is not allowed to be advertised in public, because we cannot prevent or control scamming and real life $$$ loss. It is however against the rules to have an alt benefit from another character you own, no matter how that happens. So by selling it and taking gc or items or what have you onto the alt you keep, it breaks the entire spirit of rule 5. If you choose to sell your character, fine on you, but it is your choice KNOWING what rule 5 says. Just because you want to sell something you worked at doesn't mean you are exempt from the rules. People work at 2 alts but it's still illegal for one of them to benefit the other.

It has already been established both by the players and Ent that rule 5 is wanted. That is the nature of owning a game, you get to decide what you don't like, what path you want it to follow, what your vision is, and what you want to classify as cheating. "Other mmorpgs" really have no bearing, we don't have to do what "everybody else" does.

[Stormie]

Maybe I am missing something...But Stormie (real life friend) and I have already decided that if EL is still running in 50 years time, someone sure as hell better bring us our laptops on our death beds so we can type in the kill me command, no one else will ever play our characters.

 

Got the nursing home booked already so lets pray to the gods that radu keeps this game going

 

On topic, I personally think its more fun to level your own character and the problem with sellin chars is u never know who the hell is playing it. One day its a buddy next day who knows ... talk about confusing a girl!

[peino]

I agree with EaglePrince, Wolfwitch, Stormie and Aislinn. In my opinion, buying characters is a kind of cheating because it bypasses the actual playing of the game. I understand that Radu can't control what players do outside the game, privately between themselves, and that is why he can neither condone nor outlaw character buying/selling. But I do think serious restrictions should be put on it.

 

I agree with EaglePrince that selling a character for gc/items that go to another character owned by the seller violates Rule 5 and should be illegal and cause for banning. As Radu says, since he can't know where you get your RL money from, you can sell your character for RL money and then buy items from the store or other players, and no one will be the wiser. If you can't do that, then you can't sell your character legally. That's how I think it should be. I still don't like character buying, but I think that this at least will keep Rule 5 more or less intact.

 

Also, I realize that it is not against the rules to be a scammer of game items, but I don't think the game should be set up to support scamming. So I think that if a character is sold/bought (EDIT: or even just given away freely), a name change must be required so other people will not be fooled about who they are dealing with. I think this should fall under the rule that bans impersonating another player. The only "honest" (sort of) reason to buy a character is to get the levels/attributes, so there should be no problem changing the name. I realize that it will be impossible to force name changes in transactions that take place outside the game, but if the powers that be realize that a character has changed hands but is still being played with the same name, that should be grounds for banning, and tough on the violater if they can't play the character they paid RL money for.

 

On the same grounds of preventing people from impersonating other players, I think that when a character is deleted as inactive, or killed by its owner (#kill_me), the character's name should be listed as taken and unavailable (like active characters) for several more months. This way, people will be less likely to think they are still dealing with the person they knew from before. Maybe it already is that way. I don't know because I've never killed a character.

 

I understand why people might want to buy a character, but personally I don't see the point of it. It takes all the fun out of the game, in my opinion.

Edited March 6, 2008 by peino

[masterpiter]

I agree with EaglePrince, Wolfwitch, Stormie and Aislinn. In my opinion, buying characters is a kind of cheating because it bypasses the actual playing of the game.

Not really, some ppl play el not to lvl or mass-click but to pwn others, to show them how great they r, bought character helps them coz they can skip that boring grinding and focus on pk, and its also some money for a player who sells account

 

Personally i had only few offers, altho never more than 2k $( and 2k $ is like 1-2 months sallary even if u didnt finish colledge in USA, no?

 

Selling game gold coins for RL money is another story, i know few ppl who made very nice money on it and they still got their characters so can make even more

 

And btw, i bough 2 characters myself, and i share password to 2 other characters

 

mp

[conavar]

Not really, some ppl play el not to lvl or mass-click but to pwn others, to show them how great they r, bought character helps them coz they can skip that boring grinding and focus on pk,

mp

 

Not really showing anyone how great they are IMO, more like showing how great someone elses char is

 

Personally I dont think char selling/buying cheats the game in anyway, to me its more cheating yourself ( at least for every person I pk, I know I trained my char from IP rabbits up) but each to there own

[Tempest]

i never bought a char, and will never buy 1.

once got an 140 a/d offered for free but didnt take it, some people still think i bought nienora char and i heard lots of rumors that im kramxel and such bullshit

so i dont wanna have anything to do with selling/buying chars, those rumors are enough xD

[LevinMage]

I see a lot of people buying/selling/buying/selling and end up stronger and wealthier beyond any normal player's wildest dreams. All it does it provide a middleman that at current time is "safe". It's gotten beyond ridiculous.

 

It seems to me that making an alt with that much stuff would take many months?

Edited March 7, 2008 by LevinMage

[Pyewacket]

I would just like to know why it is against the rules to sell your own time/effort for profit as that is the fundamental rule of surviving in life

As stated above, it's not against the rules. We do not endorse or forbid it, as obviously we cannot control it. That also is why it is not allowed to be advertised in public, because we cannot prevent or control scamming and real life $$$ loss. It is however against the rules to have an alt benefit from another character you own, no matter how that happens. So by selling it and taking gc or items or what have you onto the alt you keep, it breaks the entire spirit of rule 5. If you choose to sell your character, fine on you, but it is your choice KNOWING what rule 5 says. Just because you want to sell something you worked at doesn't mean you are exempt from the rules. People work at 2 alts but it's still illegal for one of them to benefit the other.

It has already been established both by the players and Ent that rule 5 is wanted. That is the nature of owning a game, you get to decide what you don't like, what path you want it to follow, what your vision is, and what you want to classify as cheating. "Other mmorpgs" really have no bearing, we don't have to do what "everybody else" does.

Since this matter arose from the point of view of a sold account and the subsequent ban of the seller because he took ingame items as a form of payment etc etc, may I enquire as to the rights of a buyer of an account? If, for example, I were to purchase someone else's character and storage items, but had no actual need for the character, and instead wished to keep the items on my original account, would that not also be in breach of the Rules? Would I therefore be restricted into keeping those storage items purely on the account I had just purchased? Or would moving them at the time of the purchase to my main account be considered a Breach of the Rules since that account is the one solely benefiting? (broken down further, if the bought account had nothing in storage except for 6 EFE, and I paid 15$ - 10 of which covers the storage items, and 5$ for the character, is it not akin to buying from EL shop since all ingame items are the sole legal property of EL anyway? Regardless of whether I am wasting the $5 investment into the character buying by no longer using it??)

 

Sorry if this seems an odd tangent to approach this from but I am a pendantic sod at times for details, and just wanna be certain I am fully aware of how the Rules are meant to apply to sales of accounts for BOTH parties. Am pretty much guessing with it being also illegal to transfer the storage though...

[Aislinn]

If, for example, I were to purchase someone else's character and storage items, but had no actual need for the character, and instead wished to keep the items on my original account, would that not also be in breach of the Rules?

Yes, that would be illegal. You now own both characters, and are not allowed to transfer the items.

 

Would I therefore be restricted into keeping those storage items purely on the account I had just purchased?

Yes.

 

Or would moving them at the time of the purchase to my main account be considered a Breach of the Rules since that account is the one solely benefiting?

Same question you already asked. Yes this would be illegal.

 

(broken down further, if the bought account had nothing in storage except for 6 EFE, and I paid 15$ - 10 of which covers the storage items, and 5$ for the character, is it not akin to buying from EL shop since all ingame items are the sole legal property of EL anyway?

No it is not the same. Buying characters are not official sanctioned transactions. They are buy and sell at your own risk. Also, when you buy from the shop, you still cannot trade the purchased items around either. Once it is on a character, it belongs to that character and trading it to an alt is illegal.

 

Regardless of whether I am wasting the $5 investment into the character buying by no longer using it??)

Not our problem you don't choose to use it. To buy a character solely for it's items is your own stupidity since you will not be allowed to trade them to your main character.

[Aislinn]

I see a lot of people buying/selling/buying/selling and end up stronger and wealthier beyond any normal player's wildest dreams. All it does it provide a middleman that at current time is "safe". It's gotten beyond ridiculous.

 

It seems to me that making an alt with that much stuff would take many months?

Reread what I said. People are doing this over and over again upping the quality of items and stats that they buy each time they do it. Stuff is just adding up as they go along. Within a month you can see newbies with stats beyond belief and the best items ingame. It's out of control and I see no reason to even bother with rule 5 if it is allowed to continue or have a blind eye turned to it.

[Pyewacket]

If, for example, I were to purchase someone else's character and storage items, but had no actual need for the character, and instead wished to keep the items on my original account, would that not also be in breach of the Rules?

Yes, that would be illegal. You now own both characters, and are not allowed to transfer the items.

 

Would I therefore be restricted into keeping those storage items purely on the account I had just purchased?

Yes.

 

Or would moving them at the time of the purchase to my main account be considered a Breach of the Rules since that account is the one solely benefiting?

Same question you already asked. Yes this would be illegal.

 

(broken down further, if the bought account had nothing in storage except for 6 EFE, and I paid 15$ - 10 of which covers the storage items, and 5$ for the character, is it not akin to buying from EL shop since all ingame items are the sole legal property of EL anyway?

No it is not the same. Buying characters are not official sanctioned transactions. They are buy and sell at your own risk. Also, when you buy from the shop, you still cannot trade the purchased items around either. Once it is on a character, it belongs to that character and trading it to an alt is illegal.

 

Regardless of whether I am wasting the $5 investment into the character buying by no longer using it??)

Not our problem you don't choose to use it. To buy a character solely for it's items is your own stupidity since you will not be allowed to trade them to your main character.

 

Thank you for confirming what i suspected to be the case, as a guild leader its something I need to ensure I advise on correctly, should any of my members approach me in the future about buying/selling accounts.

[sywren]

I must be completely dense because I've been sitting here reading all of this cannot come up with any possible way for this NOT to break rule #5 for all of the reasons already stated.

 

I honestly had this conversation a while ago and oddly a similar one last night (please forgive me- I don't log chat).

 

SyWren: Where are you?

Idiot: Still walking.

SyWren: TTPR ftw?

Idiot: What's that?

SyWren: Teleport to Portals Room. What's your magic level?

Idiot: 30

 

Now come on. What moron spends either that much time in game leveling magic on heals alone and has never heard of a portals room, or spent time leveling magic and not bothered to spend five minutes looking up what he gets by leveling it?

 

There is no way to sell knowledge. The only way to learn the game is by playing it. Buying a character you can't use is ridiculous.

 

And the point of wanting to skip the time between just so you can have a character that can kick everyone's asses without putting in the work? I don't get that either. So I buy TopPlayer's character and kick Idiot's ass. I haven't done anything. TopPlayer kicked Idiot's ass because he's the one who has mastered the game and created the character. The only thing I've mastered is my ability to use a mouse and keyboard.

 

I may be going on a bit of rant here, but it's probably because this week I finally did a #killme_yes on my first character (sygon). I didn't want her to be randomly wiped because I haven't logged on as her in months. Even though I only played as her for two months and haven't leveled her since June, I wouldn't consider giving her to someone else or even allowing someone to do a character wipe on her because she hasn't been logged on in X amount of time.

 

My point is this: what is the point of playing a game you aren't really playing? And as for the creating of alts to sell, well that isn't EL either. That is an entirely different game, and I will never understand it.

 

Edit: typos

Edited March 7, 2008 by sygon