The Update

[RallosZek]

However, I'm just a bit worried about the phantoms....i was bashing them like 30 - 40 levels ago, and it would be a little embarassing to get pwned by one!

lol I got pwnd by one today. If you don't watch your mana closely, you can have a nasty surprise.

 

And I agree with Lee. The phantom warrior is great for magic training, but at level 40 MDing with a partner is usually better. So some mana would be nice.

 

Lifedrain is a level 27 spell, that is very cheap to cast and has decent exp at 1 SR cost to get you through lower level 30's magic. As far as I can tell phantom a/d is still around 40-45 and having lowish 30 magic at those levels isn't what most have. So this is a very good way to train magic cheap and get some coin in return. Remember that any normal magic training is a pure money sink. If mana is a problem, invest some in EMPs

 

I haven't started crafting yet, so I really only have an outsiders opinion, but I do agree... craft is at a disadvantage right now.

 

Yeah, crafters conveniently left out the part where you can sell the top 3 rings to npc at a very nice profit, by buying all alchemy parts at market and doing your own harvesting and polishing.

 

I have to agree with Ghrae....Everything the crafters can make is replaced by something.

EMP/sr existed way before mana destruction rings. What you guys all fail to see is that you have options, which is a good thing. You can get to the other continent using 30+emu and some mana or 1 emu. And you can walk too. It isn't all about money.

[ttlanhil]

Yeah, crafters conveniently left out the part where you can sell the top 3 rings to npc at a very nice profit, by buying all alchemy parts at market and doing your own harvesting and polishing.

find me a supply then... it's not as easy as you seem to think to get large amounts of stuff on @@3 (there's a reason my alch level is so high, it's because it's hard to buy stuff like essences)

if I make and dig stuff myself, it takes a long time... sometimes I get help mixing essences if I have ingreds, sometimes not

please, people, consider it a while before saying high level people have it easy... profit margins aren't as big as you think (eg crowns, plate sets), and it's not so easy to buy ingreds at affordable prices (some things on @@3 sell for less than the cost price, people make them for XP and recoup most of the cost where possible)

[MagpieLee]

I don't completely agree that it eliminates the need for Irilion rings. Have you tried walking to Iscalrith via Portal room? Its so far! Plus, some maps have different spots where you ring-or-portal in. And those extra few seconds can make all the difference saving a DB or in a contest. Plus, not everyone has the mana/sigils/magic lvl to cast. I still use the rings...

 

As for increasing it to lvl 50, I don't mind (invis is lvl 50 too). But 150 mana would be insane ><

ttl if you find it difficult with ess supply maybe its your prices? pm me and I'll supply if conditions are good ;D

[Ghrae]

Yeah, crafters conveniently left out the part where you can sell the top 3 rings to npc at a very nice profit, by buying all alchemy parts at market and doing your own harvesting and polishing.

 

Actually, I've run cost evaluation charts on all the C2 rings. ONE ring is profitable sort of. I mean, if you never fail, you make a small profit.

 

But as the highest crafter currently in the game, let me tell you: I do fail. Enough that I lose money in making them.

[RallosZek]

And so you make your own silver bars and save cost or get a few more levels so you fail less if you're not in the 99% range yet.

 

As you know very well, you won't ever go broke in el if you get (the bulk of) your own stuff. Won't even have to touch the money tree.

 

As for glacmor:

2000 silver bars: 70.000gc

3000 FE: 10500gc

yield: 990 silver rings

4000 WE: 20000gc

yield: 1880 polished sapphires

5000 EE: 40000gc

 

Investment alc products: 145.500gc

Feastings 2000 polished sapphs combines: 5760gc

Feastings 990 glacmor rings combines: 8316gc

 

Total investment: 159576gc

Yield at 95%: 940 rings @ 175gc = 164500gc

Profit: 4924gc

 

It's not that hard to see where you can save money and boost profit.

[Ghrae]

And so you make your own silver bars and save cost or get a few more levels so you fail less if you're not in the 99% range yet.

 

As you know very well, you won't ever go broke in el if you get (the bulk of) your own stuff. Won't even have to touch the money tree.

 

As for glacmor:

2000 silver bars: 70.000gc

3000 FE: 10500gc

yield: 990 silver rings

4000 WE: 20000gc

yield: 1880 polished sapphires

5000 EE: 40000gc

 

Investment alc products: 145.500gc

Feastings 2000 polished sapphs combines: 5760gc

Feastings 990 glacmor rings combines: 8316gc

 

Total investment: 159576gc

Yield at 95%: 940 rings @ 175gc = 164500gc

Profit: 4924gc

 

It's not that hard to see where you can save money and boost profit.

 

I'd love to see some of the math that you gloss over. Or the fact that I don't see you in the top 200 crafting which covers quite a range of levels.

 

But you did say we could buy our ingredients on market AND be profitable for several rings. Let's stick with Glacmor.

1 Silver Ring = 75 gc (ok, you want 2 silver bars and 2 FEs? About the same cost)

1 feast pot = 12 gc

5 energe ess = 40gc

2 sand paper = 20gc

4 water essence = 20gc

Total = 167gc

Means I'd have to have better than 95% success to break even.

 

I didn't calculate failures at polishing or making rings so we can assume slightly higher. And that's just to break even.

 

And FYI, my success rate is not 95% (though I wish it was).

 

But in the end, though I wish for your sake this was only about my personal profit level, it isn't. It's about crafting being a part of the EL economy. A regularly purchased commodity on the market - which it is NOT. And there is less reason now to buy from crafters than ever before.

 

That, RallosZek, is my point. Let's make crafting a part of the market place and not something we sit and hope for better success rates or have to double our online time to make everything from scratch just to cut a profit.

[Gohan]

You know, you make soooo much more profit if you buy less and mix more yourself. *hint hint*?

 

-Blee

[Ghrae]

You know, you make soooo much more profit if you buy less and mix more yourself. *hint hint*?

 

-Blee

 

But in the end, though I wish for your sake this was only about my personal profit level, it isn't. It's about crafting being a part of the EL economy. A regularly purchased commodity on the market - which it is NOT. And there is less reason now to buy from crafters than ever before.

 

That, RallosZek, is my point. Let's make crafting a part of the market place and not something we sit and hope for better success rates or have to double our online time to make everything from scratch just to cut a profit.

 

You know, *hint hint* it helps if you read what the point was.

[Gohan]

I saw you both giving out calculations about how you're not making enough profit. Which is what I picked on. I personally don't really care about not many people buying your rings. Maybe you should make rings that are used more.

 

-Blee

 

EDIT: short example: I got no need for Glacmor rings, Diss rings are more likely to be bought by me.

Edited October 15, 2006 by BleedingSoul

[Ermabwed]

2000 silver bars: 70.000gc

3000 FE: 10500gc

4000 WE: 20000gc

5000 EE: 40000gc

I'm putting in an order for this stuff with you

Maybe I should go through my chatlog and get a quote of a silver bar pc from you "36+" iirc.

Anyways, at level 77 Ghraes success rate is below 90% if I'm not mistaken (77/(2*58)+0.5*(1-77/(2*58))), and you need to include feasting potions for non-critical fails in your calculation anyways.

I put some statistics on Hurquin rings in the "changed success rate on new server" thread, my chances aren't that much worse than Ghrae's, so there's some data.

 

Also wanted to add my two cents: as Lee said there's still a use for c2 rings, also said earlier: it's good to have options, but the thing that bothers me a bit about this discussion: this is a multiplayer game, I always saw the npc buying price as a lower boundary for prices and sold rings to him only once so far, now I'm told I'm not supposed to make things for players but to make them for npcs

It's like saying: we don't you high level crafters to play with us

 

Anyways, spell is nice to have with possible adjustments in terms of required level, but tells us that there won't be a third continent anytime soon

Effects to c2 ring market remain to be determined, wasn't exactly a steady source of income before. All the desert chim trainers will probably prever Hurquin/Sedicolis/Bethel ring over wasting emu and mana on a spell...

 

Other notes on the update: nice work but no more wandering KF for fun for a number of people or perhaps the fluffies and chims add some extra thrill idk. Vial seller, hmm can we manufacture them if we get the hydro bars for GIWS done by next weekend, pretty please?

 

edit: Ghrae put it very nicely what I wanted to say with the statement about making stuff for players, I'm just too slow

Edited October 15, 2006 by Ermabwed

[Ghrae]

I saw you both giving out calculations about how you're not making enough profit. Which is what I picked on. I personally don't really care about not many people buying your rings. Maybe you should make rings that are used more.

 

-Blee

 

EDIT: short example: I got no need for Glacmor rings, Diss rings are more likely to be bought by me.

 

*bites tongue*

 

Great! I'll put you down for a repeating weekly order of 200 diss rings. Contact me in game. Thank you for your business and your suggestion.

[Gohan]

Unfortunatly for you, my friend. I don't need that many Diss Rings on 1 week. Tyr to find someone who uses them at a higher rate then me. ^.^

 

-Blee

[Atlantis]

I don't see why you make such a big deal about not profitting from crafting. Its not as if other skills give huge profits either, unless you do harvest all ingredients.

1 Silver Ring = 0gc

1 feast pot = 12 gc

5 energe ess = 0gc

2 sand paper = 20gc

4 water essence = 0gc

Total = 32gc

 

3 Leather = 14gc

4 Thread = 0gc

 

You can profit from every skill, if you do harvest every ingredient. But you have assumed that you have to buy all those things.

1 Silver Ring = 75gc

1 feast pot = 12 gc

5 energe ess = 40gc

2 sand paper = 20gc

4 water essence = 20 gc

Total = 167gc

Exp = 336 w/ god

Loss = ~3gc @ NPC

Exp:Money Lost=112:1

 

3 Leather = 14gc

4 Thread = 8gc

Exp = 60 w/god

Loss = 2gc @ NPC

Exp:Money Lost 30:1

 

 

Sacrifice a gc loss for exp, that is the way every skill seems to work (except alchemy, another category entirely, cause very few people "train" it)

[Ghrae]

I don't see why you make such a big deal about not profitting from crafting. Its not as if other skills give huge profits either, unless you do harvest all ingredients.

1 Silver Ring = 0gc

1 feast pot = 12 gc

5 energe ess = 0gc

2 sand paper = 20gc

4 water essence = 0gc

Total = 32gc

 

3 Leather = 14gc

4 Thread = 0gc

 

You can profit from every skill, if you do harvest every ingredient. But you have assumed that you have to buy all those things.

1 Silver Ring = 75gc

1 feast pot = 12 gc

5 energe ess = 40gc

2 sand paper = 20gc

4 water essence = 20 gc

Total = 167gc

Exp = 336 w/ god

Loss = ~3gc @ NPC

Exp:Money Lost=112:1

 

3 Leather = 14gc

4 Thread = 8gc

Exp = 60 w/god

Loss = 2gc @ NPC

Exp:Money Lost 30:1

 

Sacrifice a gc loss for exp, that is the way every skill seems to work (except alchemy, another category entirely, cause very few people "train" it)

 

You know, you make soooo much more profit if you buy less and mix more yourself. *hint hint*?

 

-Blee

 

But in the end, though I wish for your sake this was only about my personal profit level, it isn't. It's about crafting being a part of the EL economy. A regularly purchased commodity on the market - which it is NOT. And there is less reason now to buy from crafters than ever before.

 

That, RallosZek, is my point. Let's make crafting a part of the market place and not something we sit and hope for better success rates or have to double our online time to make everything from scratch just to cut a profit.

 

You know, *hint hint* it helps if you read what the point was.

 

I guess this thread should be for those who can't read. How many times do I need to make my point? Did I use words that were too large for you to understand? Do you have complications due to language barriers? Please, how can I help people like you to understand that my point was not about profit?

[Atlantis]

I understand your point perfectly, but do you really think people want to buy 10k leather helms, either?

I think that rings - specificially diss, c1 teleport to mainly votd - sell a lot more than manufacture products *that are used to level*

Edited October 15, 2006 by Atlantis

[Ghrae]

All the more reason to try and find items that are useful in the various skills and not easily countered by cheaper alternatives.

[Entropy]

All the more reason to try and find items that are useful in the various skills and not easily countered by cheaper alternatives.

 

I don't really understand your problem.

First, the new spell is not a replacement for the rings. There are times when the rings are more useful, for the following reasons:

1. Guaranteed to work (no failures).

2. Take you directly to your destination.

3. No mana or ingredients needed (saves space in the inventory).

 

Second, as others pointed out already, the C2 rings are not only good for leveling, but are also not expensive to level. In some cases, you can even make a proffit.

[RallosZek]

2000 silver bars: 70.000gc

3000 FE: 10500gc

4000 WE: 20000gc

5000 EE: 40000gc

I'm putting in an order for this stuff with you

Maybe I should go through my chatlog and get a quote of a silver bar pc from you "36+" iirc.

 

That's gold bar, since npc buys @ 35. You can buy silver bars at 31 from me btw, if I bothered to make FE iso buying them. Ask mo, when I still sold them

 

Anyways, at level 77 Ghraes success rate is below 90% if I'm not mistaken (77/(2*58)+0.5*(1-77/(2*58))), and you need to include feasting potions for non-critical fails in your calculation anyways.

I screwed up bigger there - +20k for the sanders :S

 

Also wanted to add my two cents: as Lee said there's still a use for c2 rings, also said earlier: it's good to have options, but the thing that bothers me a bit about this discussion: this is a multiplayer game, I always saw the npc buying price as a lower boundary for prices and sold rings to him only once so far, now I'm told I'm not supposed to make things for players but to make them for npcs

It's like saying: we don't you high level crafters to play with us

lol valid point. That's the thing with generic MMO's though, where everyone can do everything: you create market by saving people time, no such thing as 'we need you as crafter/potter/alcher/whatever'. A player can choose to do everything themselves and eventually might do so.

 

But many people have over time suggested to take a better look at npc prices. Some items just exist to level and have a convenient use as a side effect. That's good imo and if npc prices would fit a bit better, then selling to players is profit, where selling to npc is return of materials invested. However, that would make things very easy.

[RallosZek]

And so you make your own silver bars and save cost or get a few more levels so you fail less if you're not in the 99% range yet.

 

As you know very well, you won't ever go broke in el if you get (the bulk of) your own stuff. Won't even have to touch the money tree.

 

As for glacmor:

2000 silver bars: 70.000gc

3000 FE: 10500gc

yield: 990 silver rings

4000 WE: 20000gc

yield: 1880 polished sapphires

5000 EE: 40000gc

 

Investment alc products: 145.500gc

Feastings 2000 polished sapphs combines: 5760gc

Feastings 990 glacmor rings combines: 8316gc

 

Total investment: 159576gc

Yield at 95%: 940 rings @ 175gc = 164500gc

Profit: 4924gc

 

It's not that hard to see where you can save money and boost profit.

 

I'd love to see some of the math that you gloss over.

My math sucked cause of the sanders.

 

Or the fact that I don't see you in the top 200 crafting which covers quite a range of levels.

Look closer, I'm rank 60 and godless .

 

But in the end, though I wish for your sake this was only about my personal profit level, it isn't. It's about crafting being a part of the EL economy. A regularly purchased commodity on the market - which it is NOT. And there is less reason now to buy from crafters than ever before.

 

That, RallosZek, is my point. Let's make crafting a part of the market place and not something we sit and hope for better success rates or have to double our online time to make everything from scratch just to cut a profit.

There's not enough restrictions on the characters for that to work. Goes for every skill. In order to make levels, you need way more product then you can ever sell. I'd rather have a decent return for the work unlimitedly, then high market profit with almost no volume.

 

Sorry for the double post should've refreshed and multiquoted *bonks head*

Edited October 15, 2006 by RallosZek

[simon]

3 Leather = 14gc

4 Thread = 8gc

Exp = 60 w/god

Loss = 2gc @ NPC

Exp:Money Lost 30:1

 

You forgot to add feastings

 

1/8 of feasting = 1.5

Exp:Money Lost 20:1

 

so Loss = 3.5gc @ NPC

 

Ghrae, if you think you are making a loss... you should try getting manu levels. I lose ~25kgc per level or more just because i don't want to waste ~100 hours picking cotton and getting the thread (yeah, 100 hours, that is roughly 30k thread, search for the last update topic if you wish to find out why 100 hours is only 30k thread). Having an item which is profitable or even what you only break even on is a very good thing for leveling.

 

The spell is good at is, people will still use the rings. Although... the idea of making it higher level was a good one. Then people who can't cast it yet (w.o. magic pot or blessing) will still keep buying rings.

 

edit : added exp:moneyloss

Edited October 16, 2006 by Nook1e

[KarenRei]

But many people have over time suggested to take a better look at npc prices. Some items just exist to level and have a convenient use as a side effect. That's good imo and if npc prices would fit a bit better, then selling to players is profit, where selling to npc is return of materials invested. However, that would make things very easy.

 

There's an easy solution to that: a high manufacture time. Seems to me if there's a problem with people making ten thousand "widgets", more than anyone would ever need to use in the game, you should make it take a long time to make, require either more components (or make harvesting of components slower), and provide more experience for producing it. Such a change could be phased in bit by bit.

 

Is there some problem with this that I'm not seing?

[Entropy]

Yes, there is. People would bitch it is too slow.

[flinto]

 

There's an easy solution to that: a high manufacture time. Seems to me if there's a problem with people making ten thousand "widgets", more than anyone would ever need to use in the game, you should make it take a long time to make, require either more components (or make harvesting of components slower), and provide more experience for producing it. Such a change could be phased in bit by bit.

 

Is there some problem with this that I'm not seing?

 

Karen, as entropy has said people would bitch! I do not know what skills you have been working on but imagine fighting a creature and you only got 1 point for it, how long would it take you to level to move up the food chain?

 

This is the same with any manufacturing process, until recently we had no way to level except make lots of items and we cant make lots of high lvl items because no one has that many enriched esses!

 

Now we have the schools - these provide double experience but we do not obtain the item. Maybe a little delay in the mix window outside the schools could be introduced with no delay when in the school (think of it like teacher assisted pre made stages in the construction).

[KarenRei]

imagine fighting a creature and you only got 1 point for it

 

That's why I said increase the experience correspondingly. If you adjust all of the elements of manufacturing an item by the same amount, the only net change is the number of items produced.

Edited October 17, 2006 by KarenRei

[Happy_G]

i dont think that would change the number of items produced, ppl would still make the same number of items it would just take a little longer and they would get more exp