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Make Alchemy Great Again! ;-)

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When the IotF NPC stopped selling C2 rings, the value of actually making C2 rings increased drastically for crafters.

We have gotten to a point where even alchemy is being shut down by ing costs being more than just buying essies from the NPC. Some like spirit essence were already at that point when I first started playing in 2008, selling for 9gc when mercury alone costs 10gc.

Making mercury is not an option either. Which has led to the death of cinnabar harving in turn as that's it's only use. And alembics are useless.

 

Being one of the top alchemists, I used to sell HEs and other essies constantly. Now I only make them for myself as costs have gone up to where most just use the NPCs to buy them. And we need at least one skill to remain gc-positive.

 

 

In order to make alchemy more useful again, I'll put up the following as suggestions:


ESSENCES

 

Magic shops should stop selling these (though can continue buying them), with a handful of exceptions so that newbies won't get stuck when learning magic:

 

Health Essence - increased price to 12gc (from 9gc)
Matter Essence - increased price to 16gc (from 12gc)
Energy Essence - increased price to 15gc (from 11gc)
Spirit Essence - increased price to 20gc (from 9gc that was way too low in the first place)

 

This would cover primary low-level magic (heal, teleport, shield). All other essies would be players only. Like the C2 rings, would give reason to mix most of them again, even the NPC-sold ones.
New prices are above ing costs high enough that large amounts will be preferred from players, but okay in small quantities.

 

There may be bitching at first esp. due to HEs and AEs, but it'll give alchemists a reason to mix them again.

Good for harvesters too, as buying essie ings may actually be worth it again.


MERCURY


Change the mix so the 2 cinn / 1 energy = 4 mercury instead of 2, as changing the NPC price would affect essie costs.

25gc of ings to make 40gc of mercury instead of 20gc of mercury sounds much better, esp. when risking an extremely expensive tool on top of that.


(As alembic cost has tripled over the past decade due to EFE cost, I dunno if this will help. Bringing down the cost of making an alembic somehow may be necessary as well.)


And no, "the experience" isn't worth it alone anymore due to the current alembic/EFE cost. Not an excuse not to change it.

 


BARS


Not as bad off as essies are, so let's see how those changes would work first. (tin/copper/bronze have always sucked and need a change but still, wait and see)


With 1 exception that's long been needed: Remove the Serpent Stone from the Wolfram Bar ings. They never get made solely due to that. The 10 wolframite ores are more than enough to keep the cost up.

Cost of mixing a wolframite bar would be below the 15kgc you can buy them for at the NPC just enough that actually mixing the bars would be preferred.

(Increase the wolframite as needed rather than relying on expensive rare stones if the cost needs to be brought up.)

 

This could give a (albeit slight) bump to mixing steel long swords as well.

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We have gotten to a point where even alchemy is being shut down by ing costs being more than just buying essies from the NPC.

 

I think this is only true for spirit essence, changing the price for spirit essence won't be that bad then, a lot of player buy essence from the npc by few hundred's k, it will be sad if the air essence for example are gone, I am not very sure it'll actually make alchemy great again, since I won't ever sell any essence.

The rings are gone from npc so people need to actually mix the rings for the 100 c2 ring quest.

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22 minutes ago, dragon_killer said:

 

The rings are gone from npc so people need to actually mix the rings for the 100 c2 ring quest.

 

I'm not thinking "only if it's a quest" is a good response. This is about actually activating the skill again. Quests are irrelevant for this topic.

 

Regardless though, the end of c2 ring sales (-1) made for a nice improvement on the crafting skill, and rings other than Glac/EVTR get regularly used now. Been regularly stocking my bot with all types.

I wanna see the same happen to alchemy. There is currently no real point to mix to sell much of anything. A top alchemist and I use my bot for crafting rings because alch selling is almost a pointless waste.

Edited by Burn

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if it's only about selling your essence increasing npc price will work then, well except magic essence(too much) and death essence seems those are at a good price already

Edited by dragon_killer

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So you claim that costs of making the essies have gone up, but you offer no hard information about that...

 

Let's start with the HE: 2 silver ore + a chrysanthemum and food. This month, silver ore seems to be at

2.5gc, let's be generous for the flower and add 1 gc. Total ingredients price 6 gc, and 2gc worth of food, gives

a total cost of 8 gc. That's still below current NPC price.

 

Energy essence: Iron ore 4gc, silver ore 2.5, flower 1, food 2, total 9.5 gc, NPC wants 11.

Matter essence: Iron ore 4gc, quartzes 3×2.2, food 1.2 gc, total 11.8, so about NPC price.

 

I don't see where prices are too low on NPC right now, and where you get the notion that ingredient costs are

killing alchemy. (And note that those prices are taken from WTS ads on market channel)

 

As the basis of your reasoning seems flawed to me, I see no need to discuss the other parts.

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On essences, I agree with revi.

 

With the exception of Spirit Essence, you can buy ings and food for less than the cost of the essence at magic shop, and mix it yourself. (a few of them you can even do quite well at making gc)

 

An alternate method of mixing alembics without the use of rares, or letting an EFE make multiple (3-5) of them, isn't a terrible idea.

 

Wolf bars don't need serpent stones in the mix, correct.

 

Why is this post in general chat, not suggestions?

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I must be playing the game all backwards. I've been harvesting all I need to make my essences. I don't think of cost per ingredient because harvesting them costs nothing but time. Has the play style changed that drastically since I last quit where I'm old school?

 

If I'm about to embark on a 10k LE project, am I a rare player who'll harvest all the ingredients to do it?

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26 minutes ago, thgilsrooc said:

If I'm about to embark on a 10k LE project, am I a rare player who'll harvest all the ingredients to do it?

I do the same.

 

There's always been some tension over pricing between those who buy ings and those who harvest their own.  But even so, it seems that prices for basic harvestables haven't really gone up for years. So, other than Spirit Essence (which has always been underpriced at NPC, imo) and maybe Death Essence, I don't have a problem with current essence prices.

 

14 hours ago, Burn said:

MERCURY


Change the mix so the 2 cinn / 1 energy = 4 mercury instead of 2, as changing the NPC price would affect essie costs.

I think this is a good idea, given the alembic cost increases (EFE's at over 25kgc) and break rate (I've broken 18 alembics in 69.4k mercury). I don't know if it would help the economy balance any, but I'd make more mercury than I do now.

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15 hours ago, revi said:

Energy essence: Iron ore 4gc, silver ore 2.5, flower 1, food 2, total 9.5 gc, NPC wants 11.

Matter essence: Iron ore 4gc, quartzes 3×2.2, food 1.2 gc, total 11.8, so about NPC price.

 

Exactly the point. The alch costs rose to just where the NPC prices were close enough that people with gc would rather haul them from an NPC at a very slightly higher cost than find them on market, and in turn the market for them dried up. 1-2gc each is irrelevant to a lot of players now when collecting to buy million-gc nexus objects is a common thing.

Just because the NPC price is *slightly* higher does not invalidate that sales from players has drastically dropped. When an NPC becomes competition, it hurts the skill.

 

(Just like manu, buying from Ida/Mel NPCs is cheaper than mixing in most cases for what manu items they sell, which is infinitely worse but due to that issue having more to do with rare ings is much more difficult to deal with.)

Edited by Burn

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6 hours ago, thgilsrooc said:

I must be playing the game all backwards. I've been harvesting all I need to make my essences. I don't think of cost per ingredient because harvesting them costs nothing but time. Has the play style changed that drastically since I last quit where I'm old school?

 

If I'm about to embark on a 10k LE project, am I a rare player who'll harvest all the ingredients to do it?

 

We're not talking about mixing for yourself, but being an actual alchemist who does it for the market as well regularly.

 

I said in my own post that I mix my own HEs. I also mix all the alch items needed for the C2 rings I mentioned, from FE to MagE to bars. I just don't bother selling any of those things anymore as it's not worth it.

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2 hours ago, Burn said:

 

Exactly the point. The alch costs rose to just where the NPC prices were close enough that people with gc would rather haul them from an NPC at a very slightly higher cost than find them on market, and in turn the market for them dried up. 1-2gc each is irrelevant to a lot of players now when collecting to buy million-gc nexus objects is a common thing.

Just because the NPC price is *slightly* higher does not invalidate that sales from players has drastically dropped. When an NPC becomes competition, it hurts the skill.

 

(Just like manu, buying from Ida/Mel NPCs is cheaper than mixing in most cases for what manu items they sell, which is infinitely worse but due to that issue having more to do with rare ings is much more difficult to deal with.)

As Darrock pointed out, prices for harvestables have hardly risen over the last several years. and my estimates were deliberately high; with silver at 2.4 and the flower at 0.5gc, cost per HE is closer to 7 gc each, Ene becomes 8.8.

 

Are you sure that those rich players would indeed haul from NPC (even through an alt, as most have antisocial park), rather than buy in bulk from players?

Not because players are cheaper: there was a very good market buying from NPC and selling higher, even after alts were allowed to interact.

For me that shows that the big buyers want loads and loads in one trade, which is only possible player to player at store. That would also exclude bots, btw.

 

Also, if crafting and crafting supplies take up more of players' time, increasing NPC prices won't help in increasing market availability, as the producers just don't have the time and resources to provide them.

 

 

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Personally I believe this will just add to inflation and since one of the big items bought from NPC, air essences, it seems a very slanted proposal.

 

P.S. Spirit Essence - increased price to 20gc will result in tremendous rise in cost of Intercontinental Teleport to Portals Room spell which uses 12 SEs.

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ok, so all this is about burn cannot sell these with nice profit then fuck the essences prices for everybody so i have gc if i understand that well... only parts i would agree on is remove serp stone of wolfram bar , mixing merucry formula and (or) maybe rise price of spirit essences...

Edited by KoDdy

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All Burn is referring to is making the game fun again for alchemists. What's the point in making and selling items when players could buy them from the NPC for around the same price. For the hard work that alchemists put in, they should receive some type of reward other than being forced to compete with an NPC for their prices. I agree the essences should be taken off the NPCs so they are only accessable if 1) you make them yourself or 2) buy them from someone else.

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That still assumes that the problem is the value of ingredients vs finished product.

Well, neither ingredient prices nor prices of essences have changed in ages, so why is it only now a problem?

And why wasn't competition with NPC a problem when iron and steel bars reached NPC price on market?

 

We have had some "discussions" in @@6 recently about caught macroers.

Might it be possible that a "parallel economy" blew the market?

Edited by revi

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Just say “selling 50k HE’s” on market and see if there is a demand or not. 

 

It is all about what you can achieve with your char. If I can earn more than 30kgcs/hour, why would I make HEs with my char, right? If mixing HE’s is the most profitable in terms of gc/hour then do it. 

 

Also, do you think there are enough mixers in the game to cover the demand of essies? I don’t think so. Only myself use at least 15k HE’s per damn week. Let alone other essies and pots etc. 

 

So getting items from only other players or mixing byself is just a silly idea. Demand won’t be covered, price will go up, some fighters will have to make alts and mix, some will just quit etc. 

 

Also, with the removal of rule 5, harving and mixing can be done much much faster especially low food cost items. If you can’t use alts, that’s your problem and you can’t inflate the market out of your own problem. 

 

I see no need to increase the npc prices of alchemy items. 

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Well, if the demand isn't covered that seems like a personal problem to me. With alts there should be no reason why they can't mix the essences themselves, if they can't find a seller..

Edited by Montez

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Even if one of the top alchemists am I often buying essences and bars. And never selling !!!

For Manu/Craft/Eng and potion do I need more than I have time to make, even if I have alts mixing too.

To mix energy ess is much cheaper than buying from NPC, I bring extra silver/iron back when making bars,  flowers are free and fast to harv. so only cost is food.

Matter ess same.

So I hate to be out of them and need to buy from NPC.

Other essences I buy is WE and FE, WE because the sapphires 3 emu make them a pain to get, FE to support low level players.

If the prices from NPC would be higher , would I take a higher price for the Manu/Craft/Eng/Potions  I sell .

I dont think people want that.

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I'm for having a 'second' formula for the alembic. Even if it were 100 EneE or even a seridium bar I'd make 10 of them. Breaking the alembic wouldn't hurt as much especially if I've only managed to make a thousand sets of merc.

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making essies is profitable.

when making LE, you get ELE

when making WE, you get EWE

when making FE, you get EFE

when making ME, you get EME

i.e. getting eme when mixing ME almost doubles the profits.

 

The only issues I see with essies:

-some essies don't give enriched ones (boring), (could give enrichment stones, for example).

-alembic price too high (could use enriched energy ess(maybe multiple, or break more often) instead of EFE, for example). This would also provide another use for EEE

-spirit ess NPC price waay too low (seriously though, should be closer to death ess)

Edited by LongMustache

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11 hours ago, LongMustache said:

-alembic price too high (could use enriched energy ess(maybe multiple, or break more often) instead of EFE, for example). This would also provide another use for EEE

 

Let's say Radu agrees with your proposal and changes the recipe to require the EEE instead. Demand will increase for EEE's and the price will skyrocket since there will be a use for them other than a few summoning stones. Then we'll be back to this discussion.

 

I retired my use of an Alembic because they simply break too often. If the alembic recipe utilized gypsum like many of the other tools, I wouldn't care how often they'd break.

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ok jsut in my case i started the game as an alchemist and reached alch 100 before i reached att/def 100.  so for long long time i did spend days doing just alchemy then i stopped, it took la long long time for me to get from alch 128 to my current 129 why did i stop doing alchemy. (and same thing with potions after i leveled it over 100)  For one thing a stopping point was GenX stopping to work. Buying ings for mixing is for mass production an requirement in my opinion. Second after i hit my goal on alchemy skill i wanted to focus my game to anothe skill. so i moved from one to the other, to the next and so on.

As for others i would love buying larger amounts from players. and mor many items that i do buy from players i do pay npc price or higher.

I agree with burn that the market Prices for npc's should be overworked. If i would have something to say i would love to see an dynamic way of doing it. something like a NPC gains every day a certain amount of ressources through game mechanism.  amount X (say 100k  per game week) so the sell and buy price should be something like 20% over sell price, x= normprice, per y less or more in storage price goes up or down. this way NPC's might be actually used for selling stuff to them, there would be a limit on ressources that might rais their prices etc.

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Generally in a Communist model economy prices of certain key things are fixed (i.e. steel, titanium and bronze armor & great swords) to make economy currency (rostos in this case) run even though it results in hoarding, rapid inflation, shortages and corruption.  I think the model is working very well.

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Saxum, I would appreciate if you kept your sacrificial comment to yourself. This game should not be compared to communism, it is rather about a game developer that made a game for players to enjoy skill diversity, chatting, and events. If you feel this way you spenda little too much time on the game and need to find another hobby. It’s not that serious.

Edited by Montez

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Your "appreciation" means nothing to me.  I just pointed out the economic parallels.

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