Jump to content
Eternal Lands Official Forums
Zenial

Enhance Pheonix

Recommended Posts

Hello everyone,

 

Its been a year and a half since the phoenix was first introduced to EL. In that time, I've seen <10 players shape-shifted to phoenix. I want to leave a reminder now that these were designed to be a competitive combat addition. There has been no changes to phoenix since its introduction. Its a shame to see aspects of el to be implemented and not utilized as intended.

 

I'd like to make some comparisons and suggest balancing changes without straying too much from their original specs.

 

1. 1*level fire protection.

2. 1*level chance to dodge hits, and it stacks with the 5% default chance and with the evanescence perk.

3. 1*level extra attack

4. 5*level to 'reborn', in addition to the day of the dead effect.

5. If the player has magic immunity cast before shape shifting, the spell will not wear off while in the phoenix form.

6. Based on the level, there is a chance to not get a cooldown when using an item.

 

1. Max fire protection from a normal set of armor (RDHoLM + IDA Set (worth ~360kgc) is 11 heat protect. Max Fire protection from Pheonix is 14. In PK scenario, we could expect Thermal Serpent Sword (+10 fire damage) Fire Bolt (+10 heat damage). 14 has no benefit over 11 heat protect. (Assuming dmg:protect scale is 1:1)

2. No comments

3. Phoenix has no armor or weapon damage bonus. Max basic armor = 32. Max basic weapon = 40-60. Suggested 2 or 3 * level extra attack. Max 28 attack bonus might compete with Mage Pants and RDHoLM, as phoenix cannot heal.

4. Phoenix will only be carrying CF and maybe rings, so rosto threat is irrelevant. Complementary to this, should be a HP bonus relevant to shapeshift level, no restore spell is very significant. Lack of predictability is also a burden to the phoenix player.

5. No comments.

6. While phoenix cannot benefit from the same variety of items as other players, I can see good use with summon stones.

 

Cost of Phoenix

9600 Creature food is required to complete Mule Leveling. Pheonix uses twice as much CF per a minute. So total cost to level pheonix = ~1.5Mill GC

This is far too expensive when compared to it's armored opponent. Consider two players of equal level and stats. Pure combat of phoenix should be higher than it's opponent as the other player more options with spells and changing equipment to suit.

 

Let me know what you think ;)

 

EDIT: Grammer

Edited by Zenial

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The phoenix is a lot more to level then 1.5million. The amount of creature food is exponential with each level

 

Hi, sorry for questioning that, but if el-wiki isn't completely wrong or outdated (which does happen admittedly ;)), the amount of creature food for each phoenix level is neither exponential not twice as high as for the mule.

 

* It says CF needed to gain next level increases by a _constant_ 100 CF each level. (1st level reached after 800 CF consumes, 2nd after 900, 3rd after another 1000 etc.)

* It also says that (while the food consumption in transformed state is indeed twice as high as for the mule) the total amount of CF needed to be consumed for reaching that next level is (initially) the same: 800 CF. That would only mean you level (initially) twice as fast, slowing down with higher levels.

 

Now, since I have no first-hand experience with flying, maybe one of the "< 10 players" could comment on these statements.

-> DC? Any corrections ;) ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The phoenix is a lot more to level then 1.5million. The amount of creature food is exponential with each level

 

Hi, sorry for questioning that, but if el-wiki isn't completely wrong or outdated (which does happen admittedly ;)), the amount of creature food for each phoenix level is neither exponential not twice as high as for the mule.

 

* It says CF needed to gain next level increases by a _constant_ 100 CF each level. (1st level reached after 800 CF consumes, 2nd after 900, 3rd after another 1000 etc.)

* It also says that (while the food consumption in transformed state is indeed twice as high as for the mule) the total amount of CF needed to be consumed for reaching that next level is (initially) the same: 800 CF. That would only mean you level (initially) twice as fast, slowing down with higher levels.

 

Now, since I have no first-hand experience with flying, maybe one of the "< 10 players" could comment on these statements.

-> DC? Any corrections ;) ?

 

Well it has been many years since I sat in a math class, right

 

first level 800, 2nd 900, 3rd 1000 etc, if this is not exponetial, I have no word to call it, so I just call it Expensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, noone will shapeshift into a phoenix (except for leveling and bragging purposes) while they can't be made in-game.

 

I already suggested a recipe similar to Mule Glyph e.g. 1 ELE + 1 EFE + 2 MoP + 60 phoenix feathers = 60 phoenix glyphs - one glyph costing ~450gc with current market prices

 

Second, phoenixes are magical creatures. They should be able to cast all spells. On the contary, their magic ability should be even improved as compared to normal state ! For example by +25% additional spell effect, or by giving them NEW spells which only a phoenix can cast, e.g. a flame burst (create+fire sigils, 4 FE as regents)

 

It's possible, that these two fixes are enough to make it worthwhile.

 

 

 

@Gwaew/Wizzy : if talking mathematics, and encyclopedia is correct, the actual formula would be

 

CF needed = 700 * level + 100 * level * (level + 1) / 2

 

so... less than squared but more than proportional

 

>> "I have no word to call it, so I just call it Expensive. "

YES ! that fits PERFECTLY! :D

Edited by aredhel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Gwaew/Wizzy : if talking mathematics, and encyclopedia is correct, the actual formula would be

 

CF needed = 700 * level + 100 * level * (level + 1) / 2

 

so... less than squared but more than proportional

 

>> "I have no word to call it, so I just call it Expensive. "

YES ! that fits PERFECTLY! :D

 

By all means - it's polynomial ^_^

 

No need to express your utmost gratitude :D

 

 

Personally, with no experience with phoenixes I regret that such a great idea is wasted right now. I hope it gets improved in a way leveling this form up makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

CF needed = 700 * level + 100 * level * (level + 1) / 2

 

so... less than squared but more than proportional

 

>> "I have no word to call it, so I just call it Expensive. "

YES ! that fits PERFECTLY! :D

 

Ok, I wasn't trying to be a wise-ass regarding mathematic details - the more important statement of the two I made was that for the first few levels leveling a phoenix is almost as "cheap" (not meant literally of course :happy:) as a mule - both requiteing 800 CF to be eaten - but getting to that level as a phoenix goes twice as fast (if those numbers in the wiki are correct).

 

Now, when becoming a phoenix is not done (like unfortunately most things done in Draia :lipssealed:) purely to LEVEL, but for fun, then I agree fully with

 

>> "I have no word to call it, so I just call it Expensive. "

 

for that kind of fun it IS twice as expensive as being able to carry a whole cart full of gypsum or hundrets of crates full of wine - but it sure is also twice as much fun :D !

... especially if those special spells suggested above were implemented - and (most) others blocked for a phoenix.

Edited by Gwaew

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Now, when becoming a phoenix is not done (like unfortunately most things done in Draia :lipssealed:) purely to LEVEL, but for fun, then I agree fully with

[...]

for that kind of fun it IS twice as expensive as being able to carry a whole cart full of gypsum or hundrets of crates full of wine - but it sure is also twice as much fun :D !

 

I like this thinking ...

... they say: "business before pleasure"...but let's not overdo business, i agree ^^

 

... especially if those special spells suggested above were implemented - and (most) others blocked for a phoenix.

 

This would need fine-tuning, why do you want normal spells blocked? I guess the phoenix should have a serious advantage over a "naked" fighter, since it costs a massive amount of CF even while in action (after having levelled)

 

Another possibility: decrease the contribution of a player's natural a/d and instead give then a phoenix a/d depending on IT'S levels - so it would become a secondary way towards battle, other than a/d training.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another possibility: decrease the contribution of a player's natural a/d and instead give then a phoenix a/d depending on IT'S levels - so it would become a secondary way towards battle' date=' other than a/d training.

[/quote']

 

Well, as you know, currently the phoenix can contribute up to 14 extra attack level. So this isn't possibility, it's fact.

 

First of all' date=' noone will shapeshift into a phoenix (except for leveling and bragging purposes) while they can't be made in-game.

 

I already suggested a recipe similar to Mule Glyph e.g. 1 ELE + 1 EFE + 2 MoP + 60 phoenix feathers = 60 phoenix glyphs - one glyph costing ~450gc with current market prices

 

Second, phoenixes are magical creatures. They should be able to cast all spells. On the contary, their magic ability should be even improved as compared to normal state ! For example by +25% additional spell effect, or by giving them NEW spells which only a phoenix can cast, e.g. a flame burst (create+fire sigils, 4 FE as regents)[/quote']

It's possible, that these two fixes are enough to make it worthwhile.

 

 

 

@Gwaew/Wizzy : if talking mathematics, and encyclopedia is correct, the actual formula would be

 

CF needed = 700 * level + 100 * level * (level + 1) / 2

 

so... less than squared but more than proportional

 

>> "I have no word to call it, so I just call it Expensive. "

YES ! that fits PERFECTLY! :D

Wizzy

 

Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:29 PM

 

View PostGwaew, on 07 November 2011 - 10:05 PM, said:

 

View PostWizzy, on 06 November 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

The phoenix is a lot more to level then 1.5million. The amount of creature food is exponential with each level

Hi, sorry for questioning that, but if el-wiki isn't completely wrong or outdated (which does happen admittedly ;)), the amount of creature food for each phoenix level is neither exponential not twice as high as for the mule.

 

* It says CF needed to gain next level increases by a _constant_ 100 CF each level. (1st level reached after 800 CF consumes, 2nd after 900, 3rd after another 1000 etc.)

* It also says that (while the food consumption in transformed state is indeed twice as high as for the mule) the total amount of CF needed to be consumed for reaching that next level is (initially) the same: 800 CF. That would only mean you level (initially) twice as fast, slowing down with higher levels.

 

Now, since I have no first-hand experience with flying, maybe one of the "< 10 players" could comment on these statements.

-> DC? Any corrections ;) ?

 

 

Well it has been many years since I sat in a math class, right

 

first level 800, 2nd 900, 3rd 1000 etc, if this is not exponetial, I have no word to call it, so I just call it Expensive.

 

Glad we all agree - it's way too expensive. I think 1.3mill max (and that's with improvements/balancing from current version)

 

 

First of all, noone will shapeshift into a phoenix (except for leveling and bragging purposes) while they can't be made in-game.

 

I already suggested a recipe similar to Mule Glyph e.g. 1 ELE + 1 EFE + 2 MoP + 60 phoenix feathers = 60 phoenix glyphs - one glyph costing ~450gc with current market prices

 

I likes your formula!

 

Second, phoenixes are magical creatures. They should be able to cast all spells. On the contary, their magic ability should be even improved as compared to normal state ! For example by +25% additional spell effect, or by giving them NEW spells which only a phoenix can cast, e.g. a flame burst (create+fire sigils, 4 FE as regents)

 

No new phoenix spells... No. I'm not sure whether giving phoenix any spells is a good idea. From a role play perspective, you're idea is great. But for gameplay it will make the fight less competitive, by making the same options available to both lots of players (phoenix and normal)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a level 11 phoenix. And I have played with it quiet a lot, and it needs some work to make it useful, obviously.

 

Not being able to cast restore is a huge problem for fighting. Maybe the effect of great healing pots could double to 160 hit points while shape shifted? It just takes damage too quickly, even with the % chance of cooldown on the pots, you just cant stand up to a fighter with a weapon and armor.

 

It doesnt have a weapon, so it does very little damage. It needs to do more damage to the things it hits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a level 11 phoenix. And I have played with it quite a lot, and it needs some work to make it useful, obviously.

Have you been fighting any real EL battles, e.g. boss mobs or PK - or was it more on the experimental stage? I believe the glyphs really need to be makeable in game to give them a chance at all.

 

Not being able to cast restore is a huge problem for fighting. Maybe the effect of great healing pots could double to 160 hit points while shape shifted? It just takes damage too quickly, even with the % chance of cooldown on the pots, you just cant stand up to a fighter with a weapon and armor.

 

It doesnt have a weapon, so it does very little damage. It needs to do more damage to the things it hits.

 

No new phoenix spells... No. I'm not sure whether giving phoenix any spells is a good idea. From a role play perspective, you're idea is great. But for gameplay it will make the fight less competitive, by making the same options available to both lots of players (phoenix and normal)

 

No spells at all might be pretty lame tho' - so looking at this, it need at least a healing spell and a damage spell.... BR-Pots alone don't do too very well and GHP's can't be mass-produced- the spells could be different, normally unavailable spells, and the ings for special phoenix spells might be cheaper than the usual ones, since the usage of CF ALREADY is expensive.

 

In general, it's probably better to do too little tweaking than to make them too powerful - before any real life experience have been collected, it's still possible to add more features later (not sure how much work it is)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did some testing with my phoenix today. I'm level 9 which is fairly high leveled considering the costs, I think.

I was fighting someone about 5-10 a/d levels lower than myself.

If he doesnt use a weapon I'm fine. I have to use pots, but not taking serious damage. However i cant cause any damage myself either.

With a great sword I am taking serious damage, but with summons (to keep my opponent turned away from me) and GHP i can cover that. But even with RoPs i can't cause any reasonable damage to him, the chance for no cooldown was too low.

With a bronze sword i have no chance at all. I was dead in 2 hits and couldn't even click a GHP before i found myself in the underworld. No matter how well the cooldown remove worked, it wouldn't help me against a bronze sword.

 

So in real PK situations the phoenix is pretty useless as it is now. It's a shame to see a fun and pretty (seriously, the phoenix looks awesome!) feature go to waste.

 

To make it more usefull (and used) it really needs some tweaking.

At the very least it needs some more HP and armor to not get killed immediately in PK.

- add x%armor*level to the phoenix

- add x%HP*level to the phoenix

You can't wear any armor while shapeshifted, including CoL, MoL, RDHoLM which are mainly used for their HP bonus. That's a major disadvantage against anyone not shapeshifted. So it should be covered at least a little bit with leveling the creature.

 

Wizzy already mentioned that in another thread:

1) The phoneix doesnt hit hard enough. And lets face it, unless you can cause some damage you can never win a fight. I would like to suggest the phoneix has some extra fire damage. Otherwise the fight will only go as long as you can survive clicking great heal pots. It just doesnt have enough punch at the moment (for the cost of leveling it) imo

- give the phoenix higher %*level attack and some extra fire damage

 

Also mentioned by Wizzy: some extra perks would fit in nicely with the fire theme of the phoenix

- add the Fatal Man Perk

- add the I glow in the dark Perk (maype with fire damage instead of radiation damage)

 

Even with all these additions the phoenix would still not be competitive in 1vs1 PK against an opponent with dragon armor and bronze sword, but it could be useful in teams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phoenixes appear to expensive alternates to Santa Claus - I have never seen it do things other than drop items. According to those with a lot more experience than I it is not useful in a fight other than to battle creatures like Bears/White Tigers/Large spiders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lvl 12 phoenix here... just like the mule I leveled it "because I can". I eventually found some uses for the mule.

 

The phoenix on the other hand...

 

1) Glyphs must be makeable Of course almost noone's used it, much less leveled it, there's zero glyphs on market. These are a basic necessity, and honestly at this point it's hit beyond ridiculous that they can't be made just like mule glyphs.

2) Those makeable glyphs should cost about the same as mule glyphs. The phoenix is already expensive as hell to level, and even use. Especially when its purpose is fighting which means eventually dying, creature food dropping, and instant phoenix loss when that happens. (Food is already twice that of a mule, it takes four times as much to fully level as a mule does, and as it's a fighting shift unlike mule more glyphs are needed to use it between actually using glyphs and possibly dropping them on death, something that's not normal for a mule.)

 

3) What exactly is the purpose of the phoenix? This needs to be figured out. It doesn't have to be good at everything, but it does need one specific thing it's particularly extremely useful at for usage. At the moment it still has nothing due to the lack of gear, lack of magic, lack of experience.

Despite the bonuses it gives, it's still worse to use than just using standard gear. The bonuses don't overcome the lack of armor/defense given by armor, the lack of damage given by a weapon, and the lack of material points due to no HOLAM or CoL with only potions to rely on that you can only hope you don't get stuck with a cooldown on. It's sheer suicide to try and attack anything a couple creatures below your char's normal training level.

 

If you can't even attack a creature you currently train on with it, how are you supposed to use this in a situation where you'd get multied like a Bethel invasion, where you'd probably hit 0 health only being hit twice?

 

There's too much relying on randomness as well... random chance of no cooldown, random chance of respawn. This is never a good quality when attempting to fight. Even this simple mixer knows that. ;-)

 

 

People use the mule because it has a specific thing that makes it useful. The phoenix needs a major tweak that makes it useful for one specific thing as well... a tank? Gives heavy damage (currently doesn't) but with the risk of easily dying, limited only by the chance it'll respawn? Something else?

(And a side question... if it respawns, would you lose a brick if you had them on you? That would be a bit too much if it does. And that's too costly to test.)

 

I've got two more levels to go before my phoenix is max levelled. I really hope something's done by then. Abandoning tweaking it based on its current use when glyphs are so costly if available at all, plus the current status where they have nothing they're particularly proficient in is a bad idea. The phoenix is one of the most beautifully done creature graphics in the game, and it's already in place. Let's make it useful.

Edited by Burn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Level 12 Phoenix here as well. Here are some MINOR changes that would make it more viable.

 

#1 Make Creature Food a non-drop item on death. That way after death you dont need to re-phoenix as stated by burn they cant be made making it extreamly expensive to gamble with its % chance on revive.

 

#2 Give it % Cooldown reduction based on level (I.E 50-80% maxed?) VS % chance of getting 0 CD

 

#3 We need access to GHP! Only three ways to make GHPs atm, luck, lenny or use a binding stone to get 30 of them (not worth) Make new formula for GHPs (similiar to EMPs)

 

#4 Phoenix has NO damages pretty much, when I fight I just I glow stuff to death really. Give it a new formula for damage (I.E 2 Fire Damage per * phoenix level)

 

#5 If we can't mix glyphs ingame atleast cut the price down from shop 1$ each is really overpriced. I pretty much dont even play the game as I level phoenix cause its too expensive to switch forms.

 

Some suggestions here are amazing

 

 

 

 

At the very least it needs some more HP and armor to not get killed immediately in PK.
- add x%armor*level to the phoenix
- add x%HP*level to the phoenix

You can't wear any armor while shapeshifted, including CoL, MoL, RDHoLM which are mainly used for their HP bonus. That's a major disadvantage against anyone not shapeshifted. So it should be covered at least a little bit with leveling the creature.

 

 

Change is good, lets make one of the best ideas that this game ever had and make it useful!

Edited by SenZon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I will implement some of the suggestions. Keep in mind that the phoenix was left unfinished because people didn't want to use it, so I was like fuck this shit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

#3 We need access to GHP! Only three ways to make GHPs atm, luck, lenny or use a binding stone to get 30 of them (not worth) Make new formula for GHPs (similiar to EMPs)

4th way to get GHP's: Buy them from dung harvesters.

 

Not every dung harvester has shiploads of them in storage, but at least a nice amount, since that harv event is not that uncommon.

 

I myself have sold some GHP's to bots and my bot (like others too) buys and sells them.

 

So, GHP's are available on the market, all you have to do is to buy them ;)

 

Piper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

#3 We need access to GHP! Only three ways to make GHPs atm, luck, lenny or use a binding stone to get 30 of them (not worth) Make new formula for GHPs (similiar to EMPs)

4th way to get GHP's: Buy them from dung harvesters.

 

Not every dung harvester has shiploads of them in storage, but at least a nice amount, since that harv event is not that uncommon.

 

I myself have sold some GHP's to bots and my bot (like others too) buys and sells them.

 

So, GHP's are available on the market, all you have to do is to buy them ;)

 

Piper

 

http://bots.el-services.net/search.php122 for sale, If i *try* to kill lets say a yeti or so I would use like half of those on one monster. Since this will be the main source of healing do you think those 122 GHPs on bots (EL's biggest market atm) will be enough for multiple people using phoenix? and Will the '4' points of obtaining this item be enough to keep up with the demand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

#3 We need access to GHP! Only three ways to make GHPs atm, luck, lenny or use a binding stone to get 30 of them (not worth) Make new formula for GHPs (similiar to EMPs)

4th way to get GHP's: Buy them from dung harvesters.

 

Not every dung harvester has shiploads of them in storage, but at least a nice amount, since that harv event is not that uncommon.

 

I myself have sold some GHP's to bots and my bot (like others too) buys and sells them.

 

So, GHP's are available on the market, all you have to do is to buy them ;)

 

Piper

 

http://bots.el-services.net/search.php122 for sale, If i *try* to kill lets say a yeti or so I would use like half of those on one monster. Since this will be the main source of healing do you think those 122 GHPs on bots (EL's biggest market atm) will be enough for multiple people using phoenix? and Will the '4' points of obtaining this item be enough to keep up with the demand?

 

 

 

137 here: http://greypal.el-fd.org/cgi-bin/querybot?action=Buy&item=potion+of+great+healing&sets=

 

Anyways, did i miss something about the phoenix, why dont you cast restoration to heal yourself?

 

Piper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

#3 We need access to GHP! Only three ways to make GHPs atm, luck, lenny or use a binding stone to get 30 of them (not worth) Make new formula for GHPs (similiar to EMPs)

4th way to get GHP's: Buy them from dung harvesters.

 

Not every dung harvester has shiploads of them in storage, but at least a nice amount, since that harv event is not that uncommon.

 

I myself have sold some GHP's to bots and my bot (like others too) buys and sells them.

 

So, GHP's are available on the market, all you have to do is to buy them ;)

 

Piper

 

http://bots.el-services.net/search.php122 for sale, If i *try* to kill lets say a yeti or so I would use like half of those on one monster. Since this will be the main source of healing do you think those 122 GHPs on bots (EL's biggest market atm) will be enough for multiple people using phoenix? and Will the '4' points of obtaining this item be enough to keep up with the demand?

 

 

 

137 here: http://greypal.el-fd.org/cgi-bin/querybot?action=Buy&item=potion+of+great+healing&sets=

 

Anyways, did i miss something about the phoenix, why dont you cast restoration to heal yourself?

 

Piper

 

Can't cast spells. 137 enought for 15 minutes for one player

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It does need some help with more GHPs getting in the game. And not being so overly expensive to use.

 

 

But I honestly believe the primary reason noone wanted to use it is just simply that it's not particularly good at anything. At all. If it had just that "one thing" that makes a player say "Hey, I can definitely use it for doing (this)", just as the mule is good for one thing, hauling shit, it would get at least some usage.

 

And stuff "on paper" doesn't necessarily translate well to actual use. Someone(s) need to actually test any changes to it. I mean, the current stats for phoenix sound good, they just don't work in actual play. (Esp. against anything with critical hits, which is to say most everything of a high level.)

 

 

 

 

If tests wanted on Test server, I'm a level 8 phoenix there.

Edited by Burn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep in mind that the phoenix was left unfinished because people didn't want to use it, so I was like fuck this shit.

Sort of a chicken/egg situation. People don't use it because it's not finished or useful, so the implementation isn't completed because people aren't using it. Any new feature needs to have some value or use for people to want to start using it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Keep in mind that the phoenix was left unfinished because people didn't want to use it, so I was like fuck this shit.

Sort of a chicken/egg situation. People don't use it because it's not finished or useful, so the implementation isn't completed because people aren't using it. Any new feature needs to have some value or use for people to want to start using it.

 

Put me in coach, been testing with starkie, I know burn and fin has been leveling as well.

 

Edit: You are level 14 shapeshfting for the current creature! May testing begin. If you need help testing @ test server radu let me know.
Edited by SenZon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×