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Depletable Resources Poll

Depletable Resources  

356 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want it?

    • Yes!
      127
    • No, omfg, will ruin teh game!!1!
      193
    • I don't care.
      36


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This is the pointless extreme to which I referred, but your source material is impeccable. My examples are very real, ask any trainer or all-rounder. :P

 

Very real, and rather excessive, I would think. But that is what many players have to go through in order to reach where they want/need to go.

Edited by Gorefiend

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I can personally say that I've explored more of the map while harvesting than I would ever do while training attack and defense.

 

My statement regarding training driving exploration more than harvesting applies to me personally, not necessarily to everyone. Places like Naralik, TG, Mel outsides, EP, Ida caves, Zirak, NRM, SKF, Hurq, Glacmor, Bethel and AA I got to first because of either training or restocking for training.

 

When I train, there are known spawns for whatever monsters I want to fight. I sometimes check them all to see which are available. For ogre training alone, I had to check WS, SKF, PV, AA, Mel, Zirak and Ida and often they were all full.

 

For harvestables, there are known locations where they exist. Checking more than 1 to see which is the best spot to harvest at that point in time wouldn't be the end of the world. In my opinion, it might even be a positive change.

 

But it's moot anyway, it appears the nays carry the day.

 

 

I can CLEARLY see you just want the harvesters to do as the fighters do....."When I train, there are known spawns for whatever monsters I want to fight."

"For harvestables, there are known locations where they exist." So us harvesters do the SAME as you fighters do..... WHATS THE PROBLEM????

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"For harvestables, there are known locations where they exist." So us harvesters do the SAME as you fighters do..... WHATS THE PROBLEM????

 

No you actually don't. Let's take iron for example. Once harvesters learn about the evtr cave, they all go there. Almost every harvester I know that needs iron goes and gets it from there, and they dont go check cc or mel cave before going there, they just go straight to EVTR cave for iron because they know it will always be there. Now let's take ogres for example. trainers will go to mel, check the 3x spawn. Most of the time its taken, so they go to skf or zirak. those are very often taken too, so they have to go to yet another spawn to look it its empty.....so plz tell me what wrong with harvesters going to evtr, seeing that the iron is depleted and moving to cc, to see if there's any iron there? or they could just wait in EVTR for it to get replenished just like a fighter could wait at the mel cave for a spawn to open up :P

Edited by FeaRM

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I'm sorry but harvesters do go to other places .. 1 rock and 15-20 people at evtr you can't get anything... but i could harv sulphur...

 

A fighter can't find a sapwn of ONE said creature.. evn though there are MANY MANY spawns of others around...

 

there is no difference between fighters and harvesters.......REPEAT..... NO DIFFERENCE between fighters and harvesters....

 

WE ALL want the same thing.. THE BEST SPOTS!!!!!

 

 

P.S. It wouldn't be so bad but making stuff takes WAY MORE ings than just a fighter going off to kill a monster does :)

and even MORE to even gain a lvl :).. but high lvl fighters just fight best monsters get massive gc drops and buy most ings or finished products from use lowly harvesters who do nothing but sit at the BEST HARV SPOTS all the time too feed them fighters :P

Edited by snowbunny

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so plz tell me what wrong with harvesters going to evtr, seeing that the iron is depleted and moving to cc, to see if there's any iron there?

 

You raise a fair point, Fear, but let me ask this: When was the last time you looked at how much iron is truly required to work up any manufacture levels? I personally don't have a huge amount of time to wander around - better to get at it right away than do a search across two continents for something I may not even be able to find enough of to make a single bar.

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Lol @ "harvesters" versus "fighters" hate in every thread.

 

I voted I don't care

I think you (@Radu) should consider more how this will affect new players

than what experienced players think, like or are used to.

Experienced All arounders-full time harvesters and harving alts will find a way to get the harvestables

they need cause they know the places and ways to reach them (or have guildies/friends to help)

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There are many valid points on both sides (harvesters vs fighters), just as there are many skewed points. Let's all sit back and cool down a bit.

 

(How long does a thread cooldown last?)

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I voted yes as it sounds like it could achieve the desired goals and also add another, interesting dimension to the game. I'm all for making the game require more thought and planning; very different for making it more difficult by frustrating the player. It's a shame such a feature could not be trailed and then voted on. However, I understand not wanting to waste time coding this if it is not ultimately used.

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I'm sorry but harvesters do go to other places .. 1 rock and 15-20 people at evtr you can't get anything... but i could harv sulphur...

 

A fighter can't find a sapwn of ONE said creature.. evn though there are MANY MANY spawns of others around...

 

there is no difference between fighters and harvesters.......REPEAT..... NO DIFFERENCE between fighters and harvesters....

 

WE ALL want the same thing.. THE BEST SPOTS!!!!!

 

Lol i don't think you get the point, let me try to break it down. This is how things stand right now:

 

Take a harvester. He realizes that he needs to get some iron. He thinks of his favorite iron spot, goes there and harvests. Once he gets there, there is nothing to stop him from harvesting (dont tell me about evtr mine or mm silver, i harvest enough there at peak hours to know there has never been a problem to reach the actual ore and be able to harvest)

 

Take a fighter. He realizes that he needs to train fluffs. he thinks of his favorite fluff spawn and goes there. When he gets there, it's taken. Now he has to go to his second favorite spawn on a different map. That one is taken too. Now he has to go to yet another spawn, and so on until he finds one that is free

 

These changes will only make harvesters do the same amount of work. Take a harvester after the update. He realizes that he needs some iron. he goes to his favorite iron spot but realizes its depleted. So he goes to another spot, on a different map and so on. Or like I said, he could wait for it to be replenished just like a fighter could wait to his favorite spawn to free up

 

You raise a fair point, Fear, but let me ask this: When was the last time you looked at how much iron is truly required to work up any manufacture levels? I personally don't have a huge amount of time to wander around - better to get at it right away than do a search across two continents for something I may not even be able to find enough of to make a single bar.

 

I've harvested enough iron, coal and fes in the last two weeks to get the following: 500 s2es, 1600steel/200iron bars still in sto waiting to be turned into s2es, 16k iron/10kcoal/6k fes waiting to be turned into steel bars. I'm not purely a fighter and these changes will affect me a lot. I still voted yes. I think most people that voted no didn't even bother to read the discussion in the other thread. People are just imagining this will turn into a mad race to get to the resources, where if you dont get to a resource within 5 minutes of it appearing there, it's probably already depleted. However, from radu's post, its clear it won't happen this way. It there are not enough resources per spot when this gets implemented, we just tell radu, he already said he would tweak it. All I'm saying is we should just give this a try, I'm sure it won't be anywhere close to what people here are complaining about and it will surely add a lot more strategy and fun to the game.

 

Just my 2 cents, sorry for the long post

Edited by FeaRM

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I've harvested enough iron, coal and fes in the last two weeks to get the following: 500 s2es, 1600steel/200iron bars still in sto waiting to be turned into s2es, 16k iron/10kcoal/6k fes waiting to be turned into steel bars.

 

Yes, in the last two weeks. How would that stack up against what you could make in the two weeks after this change would be made?

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Guys, why did this become a fight between A/D trainers and harvesters? No matter what you do in this game there is work involved for all. Fighting takes more risk than harving because its slashing swords, not picking flowers. Because harving is picking flowers its considered easier, and guess what? Really and truly, harving isn't hard, it doesn't require finesse like fighting and PK do, its just tedious but necessary to advance most levels.

 

I'm an all arounder with 'higher' a/d (yes yes all you 100+ a/d people, check gossip and snicker at the word higher) and I like to craft too. I mix all my own stuff for everything, so I harv a lot and I still don't see this as a negative change as long as multiplay is still not legal. If you know where the resources are, it won't take long to find a resource that is full. And yeah some hours you might not be able to harv sulfur to make your FEs to make your bars, but you will most likely be able to get the coal or the ore for them. I think for a lot of harver/mixers this represents a shakeup in routine, which no one likes. But implemented properly it could be a good change. This change might mean that some of the recipes for things may have to be tweaked a little as time goes on (like maybe a little less silver for some stuff? :P ), but we won't know unless we try.

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I wonder what changes in the arguments there would be if this topic was instead titled: Depletable Spawn Poll.

Edited by bkc56

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I've harvested enough iron, coal and fes in the last two weeks to get the following: 500 s2es, 1600steel/200iron bars still in sto waiting to be turned into s2es, 16k iron/10kcoal/6k fes waiting to be turned into steel bars.

 

Yes, in the last two weeks. How would that stack up against what you could make in the two weeks after this change would be made?

 

maybe you didn't finish reading my post. I dont see this change affecting us so much, i don't see why you would think that either. I think it would take me the same amount of time to do the same quantities after the update and the adjustments have happened so that this is fair....

 

edit: @nova i totally agree with everything you said in there. Sorry for going on about fighters vs harvester, snowbunny was just getting on my nerves with her comments so i had to reply :P

Edited by FeaRM

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Well, I am working on my 4th degree right now...but you have made it apparent that my input is not wanted. Managing multi-billion dollar corporations and doing advanced research in Keynesian Economics, would in no way give me the qualifications needed for input on how design a micro socio-economic paradigm for an encapsulated macroeconomy on the scale that exists in EL.

 

Keynesian Economics???? ROFLMAO.

That's the funniest thing I ever heard recently. No, I would NEVER, EVER take advice from someone who believes in that crap. I'd rather go the South Park way and divinate using animals that to follow that pseudo economic crap.

 

 

Obviously you don't know what Keynesian economics is.

 

For the uninitiated, it is a moderate macroeconomic theory that favors neither supply side or consumer side economic and fiscal policy. It is balanced and favors equilibrium, as opposed to creating either traditional capitalist or marxist imbalances. It is ideal for an economy like EL.

 

It is not something to ROFLMAO about. That kind of reply is like saying "i686 code????? ROFLMAO."

 

Maybe the animals at ip...nevermind.

I'm uninitiated..fancy words there that to me mean keep the whole thing stagnant? Balanced equilibrium would surely negate the need for change on any level, since it is inherently against the equilibrium itself to introduce such change...hardly ideal for EL if thats the case...nothing new would be added for fear that the risks of doing so would upset the status quo. No wait...thats already happening isnt it? Ironic.

 

shame we couldnt get a go ahead for multi-account-forums playing, i'd vote 10k yes's just for teh love of chaos.

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I wonder what changes in the arguments there would be if this topic was instead titled: Depletable Spawn Poll.

 

*sighs*

 

Spawns are limited anyway, somedays players have to go without or change what they train on.Comparing the two would only stack up if there was an unlimited supply of spawns (which there isnt if ppl didnt realise)

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But there ARE unlimited amount of spawns silly... just not the ones you WANT to train on at that time :P

 

and yes it will make things harder for harvesters since ALL skills NEED harvesting to do ANYTHING in the game :)

 

I still don't get why we need to down play harvesting more since radu himself has said "Hmm, let's see:

1. A lot of people stopped bringing their alts online because of the minor harvest change of mini events. Some even quit altogether.

 

So in my EYES this has helped alot to STOPPING the gold farmers ... which this thing is meant to do also.....so why make it worse when the mini events have already fixed said problem (most of the problem)

Plus the mini events are not as bad as TRYING to find a SPAWN of ORE or FLOWERS :S

 

and AGAIN... WE ALL WANT THE BEST SPOTS!!!

Harvesting should not turn into what fighters do everyday anyways... theres no point.. or do you want this game to become a HUNT and FIND kinda game??

I don't see this as being a PLUS that ill bring in NEW players... they will all be like, " Why bother i can never find a harvest to get my OTHER SKILL lvl's up... The higher lvls have to come to where us new people harvest cause all their spots are depleted."

Edited by snowbunny

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But there ARE unlimited amount of spawns silly... just not the ones you WANT to train on at that time :P

 

and yes it will make things harder for harvesters since ALL skills NEED harvesting to do ANYTHING in the game :)

 

I still don't get why we need to down play harvesting more since radu himself has said "Hmm, let's see:

1. A lot of people stopped bringing their alts online because of the minor harvest change of mini events. Some even quit altogether.

 

So in my EYES this has helped alot to STOPPING the gold farmers ... which this thing is meant to do also.....so why make it worse when the mini events have already fixed said problem (most of the problem)

Plus the mini events are not as bad as TRYING to find a SPAWN of ORE or FLOWERS :S

 

and AGAIN... WE ALL WANT THE BEST SPOTS!!!

Harvesting should not turn into what fighters do everyday anyways... theres no point.. or do you want this game to become a HUNT and FIND kinda game??

I don't see this as being a PLUS that ill bring in NEW players... they will all be like, " Why bother i can never find a harvest to get my OTHER SKILL lvl's up... The higher lvls have to come to where us new people harvest cause all their spots are depleted."

Did you not read the post? IP was suggested as unlimited harvesting until a certain level... which means New players aren't really affected by this.

 

Not saying that I particularly want this to go into effect but still...

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Voted Yes.

 

Its something that should have been day one.

It should be implemented regardless of the poll results, bitchers can leave,

and we can gather new players. That would open up fixing many things

instead of not changing them for fear of losing any player base.

 

I have long harvested while I am working, or half ass working, and I know

this must change. This is a game and it cannot progress as a minimized rpg

I pop up every few minutes to whore out some resource. I am glad

to see the end of silent afk harvesters.

 

(The market for ALL items will suddenly become far more dynamic in prices. It the

original reason I started playing, as a dwarf merchant)

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I think we've gotten off-topic.

 

I'm not sure I understand what problem you are trying to fix. Is it really so bad that multiplay is not allowed? It seems that allowing multiplay was at least the spark of what has you thinking about depletable resources.

 

I think EL was an awful lot of fun just 2 months ago. It doesn't seem as much fun anymore. I'm not ready to leave yet, I hope you find a way to make it fun.

 

Maybe if you explain what you're after?

 

 

Bingo my friend.

 

I have only been playing a few months, and the game is less fun now than it was.

 

You don't fix a leaky faucet by turning the water on. It isn't leaking anymore - but it is not fixed.

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A lot of people have pointed out that a harvester can move to a different spot to harvest, this is mostly true, some ores are only found in one location, some of these require items in order to harvest so they are limited as it is now. So what I say is only relevant to the harvestables that do not require any items.

 

One factor of life in EL is that there are invasions, sometimes there is non for a long time, sometimes they happen every time I try to play for a week, if I then want to harvest (as I have said before I'm not much of a fighter in EL and never intended to be) I have very limited options. And as is often the case during invasions where one or two maps are not invaded, these maps are rather crowded by harvesters and with depletable resources would soon be depleted. Ie. when only NC and VotD is free of invading creatures the outhouse is so crowded that it takes some shuffling to get to it, and if the depletion limit is not set so high as to make it meaningless it would soon be depleted. I know I could just harvest something else, but nothing else gives much xp at my harvest level.

 

Slightly off topic: Don't tell me I could just go fight in the invasion, I know that, but on of the things I like most about EL is that I don't have to be a fighter if and when I don't want to.

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Voted "yes"

 

+1 for anarchy and chaos, I almost don't play anyway since the last harvesting refu... err refactor :medieval: (even do I think "no" w/o the completely unnecessary and non polite omfg, will ruin teh game!!1! would be better).

 

What if there were a max amount of harvesting at any one spot set to an IP address instead to the whole game? It would completely wipe out alts used to harvest and large group parties could still harvest without stealing others Harvestables. Would also solve the family problem because they could still all play they would just have to do different things at any given time which shouldn't really be a problem. This way there could be no 'serping' of harvestables that could be complained about. The respawn time could also be set for longer to encourage players to work on more than one skill and also to encourage trading.

 

Pro-idea IMO! If there will be depletable resources I think this is the best way to do it w/o annoying the players too much. I support this 100%

 

cant say im thrilled with this, depletable resources ok its a nice idea but the alts i dont think is cause people will make like 4 alts and go to 1 resource say silver ore in mm and deplete it then move onto another then another an just hog it all and sell off for insane prices but well wait and see what happens when its added

 

That is an issue, but we can make rules against camping at resources. Very easy to detect if players from the same IP do that, then I can make it so they can't harvest for a few hours.

 

Instead of having the counter on the resources, would it be possible to have them tied to the player ?

 

ie: player A has a hourly/daily harv limit at a certain spot, when that limit is reached they have to move, would stop ppl with multi alts depleting resources and also would negate problems with time zone differance

 

Nice... that sounds like police state... keep moving, keep moving! there is nothing to see! (sorry, don't know if that is the way police says in english) if you just sit down AFK a bit besides a resource you will look like a suspect of camping and will get a penalty of a few hours w/o being able to harvest... well just read the "players from the same IP" so may be I'm wrong here, but any way I could not resist to make the comment.

 

@ conavar, pro-idea again, mostly the same spirit of ArchimedesI one ;)

 

Well, I am working on my 4th degree right now...but you have made it apparent that my input is not wanted. Managing multi-billion dollar corporations and doing advanced research in Keynesian Economics, would in no way give me the qualifications needed for input on how design a micro socio-economic paradigm for an encapsulated macroeconomy on the scale that exists in EL.

 

Keynesian Economics???? ROFLMAO.

That's the funniest thing I ever heard recently. No, I would NEVER, EVER take advice from someone who believes in that crap. I'd rather go the South Park way and divinate using animals than to follow that pseudo economic garbage.

 

 

Obviously you don't know what Keynesian economics is.

 

For the uninitiated, it is a moderate macroeconomic theory that favors neither supply side or consumer side economic and fiscal policy. It is balanced and favors equilibrium, as opposed to creating either traditional capitalist or marxist imbalances. It is ideal for an economy like EL.

 

No, it is an economic system where the state interferes with the economy by changing interest rates, having stimulus bullshit and so on. The Obama-Paulson-Bernanke crap that led us to where we are now.

 

The really crap and what really is f%&ing the world is the freaking capitalism in the way it's implemented that does not let us breath... Yeah, free market let's make profit, MORE, MORE!!! does not matter if we pollute the world. Yeah, we need oil, let's invade our neighbors that have enough, why pay a fair price if we can put some marines there and get it cheaper, who cares if we kill people for it? (and I also forgot the let's make the rich people richer and the poor poorer).

 

@ IngalfTass, may be I don't know well Keynesian Economic Theory, but it seem an interesting reading... Thanks for the suggestion. Be sure I'll read a bit in free time :icon13:

 

@ Radu: What happens to you? I really think you should at least stop insulting your clients (err, I mean players). What a weird way to make business, give the game a really bad image and make people go away from EL instead of keep them in-game (remember one of my last suggestions, Philip Kottler / Marketing books?). Don't you think people can have different believes from yours? Don't you thinks people believes have to be respected? Currently I'm a bit Socialist, and YES OMFG I'm from Venezuela, the land of the ebul Chavez! Now please, insultme about it...

 

The sad thing is that what IngalfTass said about some good people leaving is really happening, some of my friends have left, I almost don't play anymore now, and I've seen other good friends telling me they are planning to quit... it's sad to hear comments from good friends telling you they "think EL is on decline" and they will quit, it's sad to see all the time and effort invested in the game go to hell...

 

Sure and while he puts that in why not add in RANDOM monster spawns.. you know so they don't spawn close to same place they were at.. that would make game play more fun also..... OR OR OR... make less spawns.. and make monster much fewer.. now that would be FUN and NEW also :D

 

NO MORE hardcore training.. sorry but 1 spawn of 1 certain monster up at a time :D (like 1 ogre per map, 1 of another and so on)

Then run around and find the next spawn of that monster..

 

TRAINING would become even more FUN and NEW .. don't ya think????

 

LOL, this made my day. I think I would even pay to see it implemented... can you imagine? It would be really fun for fighters to really run around to other unknown map/location each time they kill a monster. Or better, why not put mini-events for fighters: "Ogre has disengaged, you won 14 attack xp", "Cyclop has dissengaged combat, you got 4gc"

 

Any way, thanks for the thread, had time with out the fun of reading such a dramatic one... the forums were a bit boring, and sorry if the post pissed off any one, I was not going to post any more since the last harvesting refactor but I could not resist B)

 

Well, I only have left to say good bye in advance, just in case I might end in the same place where Cyberwulf and GoodDay2Die ended. Or worst in case a lighting just hits me in the moment I push the “Add Reply” button. But reading what those banned players wrote, and what some other players did I think that if you (Ent) want to be fair you just will need to ban half EL :P

 

Enjoy,

dmi

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A lot of people have pointed out that a harvester can move to a different spot to harvest, this is mostly true, some ores are only found in one location, some of these require items in order to harvest so they are limited as it is now. So what I say is only relevant to the harvestables that do not require any items.

 

One factor of life in EL is that there are invasions, sometimes there is non for a long time, sometimes they happen every time I try to play for a week, if I then want to harvest (as I have said before I'm not much of a fighter in EL and never intended to be) I have very limited options. And as is often the case during invasions where one or two maps are not invaded, these maps are rather crowded by harvesters and with depletable resources would soon be depleted. Ie. when only NC and VotD is free of invading creatures the outhouse is so crowded that it takes some shuffling to get to it, and if the depletion limit is not set so high as to make it meaningless it would soon be depleted. I know I could just harvest something else, but nothing else gives much xp at my harvest level.

 

Slightly off topic: Don't tell me I could just go fight in the invasion, I know that, but on of the things I like most about EL is that I don't have to be a fighter if and when I don't want to.

 

I agree with this completely. As is often said of me out in the real world, "I'm a writer, not a fighter." I have taken that exact philosophy to EL as well. I'm not big on hunting around and training attack and defense. While I may at some point in the future, at whatever point I deem it to be more worthwhile for me, I am not at this point as yet.

 

And so, I'm one of the people you will no doubt see running around a non-invasion map working on things I've either stocked up on (which run out very quickly) or attempting to harvest for what I wish to make in the future. So if the resources in Nordcarn of Valley of the Dwarves are specifically targeted during these times - and we all know how long global invasions can last at times - that leaves a minimal chance of harvesting anything I would find useful.

 

And for those who have said that harvesters are whiners and bitchers, I would suggest they also listen to the fighters who can't find an open spawn point for high-level monsters. (I won't name specific people to spare their embarassment, but they will know who I mean.)

 

And again, I'll submit that I could be incorrect about this, and that it winds up being no problem whatsoever. But I have recently noticed an overall trend aimed at those who prefer harvesting to fighting. I would hope that if this change is made, the effect be mirrored onto monster spawn points. For example, instead of three spawn points for a specific monster on a map, reduce it to one so fighters are forced to move around more as well.

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I voted yes as it sounds like it could achieve the desired goals and also add another, interesting dimension to the game. I'm all for making the game require more thought and planning; very different for making it more difficult by frustrating the player. It's a shame such a feature could not be trailed and then voted on. However, I understand not wanting to waste time coding this if it is not ultimately used.

 

Bluap, in theory I agree with you: requiring more thought and planning is a way to make the game more interesting. In practice, this doesn't work all of the time, one of the reasons being that tastes are different, what's interesting planning for you surely results in needless frustration for another player.

 

In this specific case, I'm afraid that having to hop from map to map to find harvestables could prove even more tedious than harvest mini events, so I voted no. I had to give up to afk harvesting because of mini events: that's a shame, because I work a lot with my computer, used to collect things then take advantage of a pause (or a longer stretch of free time) to mix and/or sell what I harvested. Ent made it clear that he doesn't really care for players like me: fine, it's his game, he can do as he likes. At the moment I'm mixing much less than before and using what I have in store, then I'll see. It is true that at times there are more bots than players, so even discounting the alts pulled from afk harvesting I guess there are real people who quit.

 

I don't think depleting resources is a better solution, the problem which needs to be fixed is gold farming, but if the fix makes the game less fun for all and pushes people to quit it's clearly the wrong way to go.

 

Rehdon

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Bluap, in theory I agree with you: requiring more thought and planning is a way to make the game more interesting. In practice, this doesn't work all of the time, one of the reasons being that tastes are different, what's interesting planning for you surely results in needless frustration for another player.

 

In this specific case, I'm afraid that having to hop from map to map to find harvestables could prove even more tedious than harvest mini events, so I voted no. I had to give up to afk harvesting because of mini events: that's a shame, because I work a lot with my computer, used to collect things then take advantage of a pause (or a longer stretch of free time) to mix and/or sell what I harvested. Ent made it clear that he doesn't really care for players like me: fine, it's his game, he can do as he likes. At the moment I'm mixing much less than before and using what I have in store, then I'll see. It is true that at times there are more bots than players, so even discounting the alts pulled from afk harvesting I guess there are real people who quit.

 

I don't think depleting resources is a better solution, the problem which needs to be fixed is gold farming, but if the fix makes the game less fun for all and pushes people to quit it's clearly the wrong way to go.

 

Rehdon

 

I wasn't going to bring it up again, but it's true, people leaving the game seems (only Ent can tell from the data for sure) to become a real problem. Right now, I belong to a small but dedicated guild where most of the members are mainly mixers and logged on every day. For the last 3 weeks, I'm the only active member left. Hence I voted no, as most of the new features seem to harm the "harv and mix" aproach to the game, leaving the a/d trainers virtually in peace. Maybe the developpers are aiming for a more a/d based game, I don't know, but I agree that actions which are likely to take away the fun for a certain number of players don't really seem a good idea to me.

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