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Active Hyperbag "Treasure Hunts"

Is intentional hyperbag stealing bagjumping?  

199 members have voted

  1. 1. If someone actively searched for your hyperbag then intentionally opened it without your permission and took the things you left there, would you consider that bagjumping?

    • Yes
      108
    • No
      91


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Ok Troger, let talk about RL forests and caves then, i'll counter your argument:

If you are leaving something hidden in a bush or in little hole in a cliff, if it is discovered it is likely taken away from there...this is the same as hyper bags...
No its not.

Leaving something in a bush or a hole in a cliff is quite a bit different than putting items in a special magic bag that can be sent outside of this reality.

A hyberbag is more like a safe than it is like a bush.

 

Now, lets say quite a few people go out to a forest and do work each day, and they all have locked and secure safes out there of which various items are placed in at the end of the day.

 

If a person was caught out in this forest in the middle of the night trying to pick the locks of those safes, do you really think the community in that region wouldn't consider that person a thief and outlaw?

I know i would.

 

 

edit: typos.

Edited by Korrode

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If a person was caught out in this forest in the middle of the night trying to pick the locks of those safes, do you really think the community in that region wouldn't consider that person a thief and outlaw?

I know i would.

If he can prove that this was left in the forest i am sure that he wouldent be tagged as a thief!

 

Troger

League of Groovy Gentlemen

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I didn't vote yet, I just tend to provide devils advocacy where I feel it is appropriate. :blush:

 

Your argument could be translated as follows: I work hard for years, buy a tricked up car, leave the keys, wallet and phone in it, cover it with a tarpaulin and leave it in a highly populated area.

 

Then being indignant and crying foul when the car and its contents disappear due to someone who likes looking under tarpaulins.

 

You are putting that person in the same category (ie outlaw) as someone who actively scams, or who jumps a mixbag when someone tele nexuses. I am not sure these are equivalent wrongs.

 

For most people here, being posted on outlaws is an unpleasant business. I think there are degrees of social wrongness, and I am not sure the contribution being made by the person making the hyperbag to the success of the "bad deed" is being taken into account sufficiently.

 

S.

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After long thought, i decided that i consider it wrong. It is somebody else's hard work, imagine how that person feels, when it's gone. If you want to earn cash in game, there are way better and faster ways, so i don't see the need at all for destroying other people's work.

 

Just my two cents :blush:

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Spleen, the person who takes that car and those items is a thief though, no?

The police would arrest them for that act, right?

 

I rarely use hyperspace bags. When i do, its just for overnight because i/we had to log off be the job was done, there's never hundreds of thousands or even tens of thousands of gc worth of stuff in one of my/our hyperbags.

 

I dont recommend anyone stores mass amounts of expensive stuff in hyperspace bags, because even if it is decided that HB taking is an Outlaw act, that doesn't mean some people wont still be out there doing it.

 

But, thats besides the point.

It doesn't matter how stupid it is to leave important items in an unlocked car under a tarp.

It doesn't matter how stupid it is to leave hundreds of thousands of gc worth of stuff in a hyperbag.

 

If someone takes those items, they are a thief.

I can't honestly believe that most people wouldn't consider anyone who does that an Outlaw and want to be aware of the people who do it (ie. Outlaws posts).

 

 

edit: Oh, and Spleen, a tarp is hardly the same as if i sent the car into hyperspace :blush:

Edited by Korrode

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1) I was just indicating there are levels of outlawry to be considered here

 

2) I believe, though I may be incorrect, that the police will consider you complicit or at least partially responsible for the theft if it was helped by your negligence. I am merely arguing that leaving a bag out in the open, in a readily discoverable place, is contributory negligence :blush:

 

I have said my bit here, now, for the purposes of raising an alternate viewpoint. I am happy to bash your ear in PM about it Korrode :)

 

S.

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Guest ohmygod

When i go to the beach I hide my car keys & wallet in my shoe, this seems to work. I never lost my car or my wallet yet.

 

Maybe hyper bag should be shaped like a shoe nobody will think to look there for treasure.

 

But seriously a hyperbag is left unattended intentionally that is the risk you take if some one finds it and takes your stuff thats just bad luck. Dont be so greedy next time and mule the stuff back to storage after you finish alching it.

 

BTW i have lost several bags of stuff in melinis iron/coal cave. Goodluck to the person who found it, as for me I dont leave big bags there any more.

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2) I believe, though I may be incorrect, that the police will consider you complicit or at least partially responsible for the theft if it was helped by your negligence. I am merely arguing that leaving a bag out in the open, in a readily discoverable place, is contributory negligence ;)

 

S.

 

Fair enough the police might laugh about you behind your back and call you stupid for leaving your keys in your car but they would also arrest the thief for commiting a crime, if you leave your keys in a car/ or a bike outside etc etc and it is stolen ... its is still a crime regardless of your own stupidity.

 

but in hindsight comparing EL to RL doesnt really work in this case either way for unlike RL EL doesnt have "laws" to govern behaviour and it is not technically wrong to scam,bj etc .but the outlaws thread isnt about people who have broken the laws/rules but about what the majority of EL think is against the community spirit

 

@ Piper : I think you will find scamming is illegal in most RL countrys and comes under Fraud/deception

Edited by conavar

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1) I was just indicating there are levels of outlawry to be considered here

 

2) I believe, though I may be incorrect, that the police will consider you complicit or at least partially responsible for the theft if it was helped by your negligence. I am merely arguing that leaving a bag out in the open, in a readily discoverable place, is contributory negligence ;)

 

I have said my bit here, now, for the purposes of raising an alternate viewpoint. I am happy to bash your ear in PM about it Korrode :(

 

S.

 

1) There are indeed different levels of outlawry to be considered here and thank you for stating that this is an indeed an outlaw offense.

 

2) You are most definitely incorrect in every way. The police may be upset with you for making their job harder by doing something stupid and making a crime easy but the victim is never considered complicit in a criminal's behavior. Unless you actually ask someone to take something(which makes it no longer stealing) then the law considers the theft exactly as any other theft no matter how easy it was to steal the stuff.

 

No one is ever responsible for anyone else's integrity for any reason. Yes if you leave your Hbag in an easy to remember spot near a resource then you can expect it to be gone because there are thieves in this game. Doing this makes you an easy mark but you are still a mark and the thief is still responsible for the act of theft. You made it very easy for them to find your stuff but they alone chose to take it. Several persons have posted that they have found and did not take stuff in hyperspace bags. That is what makes them not a thief and the people who do take thieves.

 

Easy to find and hard to find have nothing to do with taking or not taking. Theft is the removal of another person's property without their permission. Look it up in the dictionary. The community monitors itself and frankly the difficulty of trying to decide who hunts for hbags and who watches people and marks them as targets to steal from is far more effort than is reasonable. It leaves you with just the word of the thief who took the stuff in the first place as to if they hunted it or marked a victim.

 

Raise your hand if you want to rely on the thief's veracity of their intent. I always refer to the person taking stuff as a thief because 99% of thieves will tell you they are treasure hunters so they won't get posted. DUH

I don't have any Hbags right now but I use them and if you take my stuff you are a thief. BTW I will post anyone in outlaws that steals from my hbag if they are caught doing it but I won't tell anyone that they cannot do it. The game has honorable players and it has those without honor and both styles of play are equally valid and allowed. That is why I am careful about placement of my hbags when I have them. :D

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

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From my point of view it looks like people using hyperbags to make their lives easier are trying to force all the others to think that this is still their property and they keep rights to it. Moreover, they want to enforce this way of thinking as a community rule using various arguments.

I completely disagree with it and I do not want to even hear it is any kind of rule. If it is a community rule, then it's rather not my community. If it is not my community, the rule doesn't apply to me.

As Piper said, if you put $1000 on the floor, in the most crowded place in your city and put a stone on it, so nobody sees it you lose any rights to this cash. Even if you put it there not to have to a bank for later use. If somebody takes it I don't see anything wrong in it as I don't see anything wrong with using metal detectors for looking for ancient coins.

There's a huge difference between getting bag left by accident (death, teleport nexus, disconnection) and the hyperbag. The former are left unwillingly, the latter for purpose and with full free will and being aware of consequences.

I do not see anything wrong in collecting/poofing/whatever found hyperbags. You find it, it's yours - you win. Enjoy. You want to make your life easier and use hyperbag, somebody finds it, this person wins, you lose. Period. Hyperbags are not storage extension.

One request, do no create more and more so called community rules to cover anything that suits you.

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Why the hell shouldn't there be a downside to leaving a bag in a public area? Especially one that is not looked down upon by the community.
Why the hell shouldn't there be a downside to dying?

The answer is because we respect that others have worked hard for the items they have, and because we, as a community, are prepared to help each other out.

 

I'm very urgently requesting to speak for yourself. I don't allow you to speak for me, so don't try and do so either. I belong to this community and don't want to be spoken for by someone else. Esp. if I don't agree with em.

 

Moreover, I'm (in general) rather kind and willing to help people, but hyperspace bags are not yours if you leave them around. Therefor I shall not be willing to help lock it again or whatever. There is no name on the stuff and therefor, I think anyone may claim it. And thus do what they want with it when found. What you do with it depends on how very kind, or evil, you are.

 

-Blee

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I guess the mass amounts of posts in Outlaws about deathbag jumping and the bulk of guild's having rules against DB jumping doesnt allow me to say "the community", i'll re-phrase; the bulk, vast majority of the community.

 

edit: I removed 2 sarcastic remarks directed at Blee, after some posts a bit later in thread and then some PM discussion in-game, and note my clarification of what i was saying below.

 

edit2: ok my clarification is gone. My "answer" to the question here:

Why the hell shouldn't there be a downside to leaving a bag in a public area? Especially one that is not looked down upon by the community.
Why the hell shouldn't there be a downside to dying?

The answer is because we respect that others have worked hard for the items they have, and because we, as a community, are prepared to help each other out. Either in the hope that the same will be done for us, or out of an urge to do what we consider honourable, or both.

...is in regard to my own question about deathbag taking. Not about HB taking, as the community stance on that is what is in debate here. Edited by Korrode

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The person that made the hyperbag intended it to be his or hers and to be safe from opening and taking it's contents.

 

I haven't managed to read all the posts, I can't seem to keep my concentration reading them :/

 

Anyway this quote I feel sums up the difference in opinions.

 

Hyperbags were never meant to be there to act as a 'second storage'; basically though if the point of view that hyperbag jumping is as bad as bagjumping keeps up they will be nearly as safe as storages!!

It seems though that people are starting to rely upon hyperbags way too much, and so they want them to become as safe as a storage. Which to be honest is why this argument happening.

 

Think of it from a treasure hunters point of view. Looking for a bag; then you'll probably try within reach of harvestables? no? Why then don't people create hyperbags outside of the reach of harvestables? Convenience? Well life isn't so fair and easy, and so basically if you want the convenience you have to gamble it with the risk!

 

:)

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ohhhh i'm soooo sorry Blee.

I guess the mass amounts of posts in Outlaws about deathbag jumping and the bulk of guild's having rules against DB jumping doesnt allow me to say "the community", i'll re-phrase; the bulk, vast majority of the community. There hows that.

Yeah, thats alot better. Don't talk for me either. People like you anoy me.

 

#Edit - Removed language which was directed to Korrode.

Edited by Chosen

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Yeah, thats alot better. Don't talk for me either. People like you piss me off.
great to hear... and didnt u quit EL? hurry up and leave already.

 

*awaits deletion of this post and chosen's*

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I voted YES because the way the question is worded "If someone ... intentionally opened it (your bag) without your permission and took the things you left there, would you consider that bagjumping?" Of course it is, it doesn't really matter if they searched for it nor that it's a hyperbag.

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I voted no, because I feel there is a very big difference between hyperbags and deathbags.

In hyperbags, you choose to put the bag there knowing someone can take it.

In deathbags, it occurs when you dont want it to.

In hyperbags, some searching/thought is required to find it.

In deathbags, it is completey luck and chance to stumble upon someones deathbag and pick it up.

 

If you place a hyperbag on the ground, you are acknowledging that someone else can take it, and then dont understand why people do?

Searching for a hyperbag is not free, and can be rather iffy as to whether or not you'll get one.

If you spend the time/money/thought on searching for it, why should you not be rewarded for it?

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A hyberbag is more like a safe than it is like a bush.

 

 

:medieval:

After assisting in the making of a many HHBs (HugeHyperBags) in the EVTR cave prior to changes Ent enacted, I vote No. More than a few of those bags, were discovered more so due to some misguided "sense of community" my guild at the time belived in. This misplaced "values system" gave most people who used the cave a false sense of security, "peace of mind", if you will... It turn out more like "a piece of mine", lol. I can say this though, Korrode. Over the years I have met a "bush" or two, tougher to crack than any safe. :medieval:

Edited by pepperspray

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From my point of view it looks like people using hyperbags to make their lives easier are trying to force all the others to think that this is still their property and they keep rights to it. Moreover, they want to enforce this way of thinking as a community rule using various arguments.

I completely disagree with it and I do not want to even hear it is any kind of rule. If it is a community rule, then it's rather not my community. If it is not my community, the rule doesn't apply to me.

As Piper said, if you put $1000 on the floor, in the most crowded place in your city and put a stone on it, so nobody sees it you lose any rights to this cash. Even if you put it there not to have to a bank for later use. If somebody takes it I don't see anything wrong in it as I don't see anything wrong with using metal detectors for looking for ancient coins.

There's a huge difference between getting bag left by accident (death, teleport nexus, disconnection) and the hyperbag. The former are left unwillingly, the latter for purpose and with full free will and being aware of consequences.

I do not see anything wrong in collecting/poofing/whatever found hyperbags. You find it, it's yours - you win. Enjoy. You want to make your life easier and use hyperbag, somebody finds it, this person wins, you lose. Period. Hyperbags are not storage extension.

One request, do no create more and more so called community rules to cover anything that suits you.

Rather than bang my head fruitlessly against the brick wall of hyper-verbosity that is Tirun's post, I will just quote Anshar's post and agree with it :)

 

I never said it was or wasn't an act of outlawry. What is considered an outlaw anyway? What is an outlawish act? This will differ between different people. I am certainly not going to claim I know the answer, nor am I arrogantly going to claim I understand or know what the "majority" (of posters or people?) claim to be an outlawish act.

 

S.

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I don't get why is EL compared to RL (few examples in thread). I mean irl killing is pretty outlaw no? so then why is not posted in outlaw forum everybody who pk'ed someone? :)

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More than a few of those bags, were discovered
When? Who? What?... I only remember us losing HB's due to our own negligence; not refreshing them.

 

more so due to some misguided "sense of community" my guild at the time belived in. This misplaced "values system" gave most people who used the cave a false sense of security, "peace of mind", if you will...
Back in those days, that particular mine was a well guarded secret (and had Coal!), but, a few people that weren't us still knew about it, and those people could clearly see we worked out of a HB... but everyone i remember who used that mine was from guilds that were considered "honourable" (which i dont deny, that word could mean anything these days), and AFAIK and IIRC we never got HBjumped... so as far as i'm concerned, that peace of mind and sense of security wasn't false and the values system was universal to everyone who used that mine, at the time.

 

So... a question to everyone who voted No to this thread, just how many of you use hyperspace bags yourself?

 

 

 

Over the years I have met a "bush" or two, tougher to crack than any safe. :)
We'll have to compare notes somet.... erm, i mean, Pepper! u ebul man, enough talk of bush cracks!

*awaits frying pan to the head*

Edited by Korrode

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I cheaked the NO! And yes i make hyperbags...lots of the time (you may search for them you may loot them if you find them,....i will not complain about that...)...and if i make one i make so that it is hard to be discovered...and i leave only those things in it that dont worth the keys to search for...i will not make bags with 100ks of ingreedients or and food...And i will not make those bags at locations, where screems that "I am here come and get me!"! As you told Korrode you were making bags in places that were known only by your guild, and few more peoples...that was what gave you the illusion of the guild sto in that cave,...that is not enought for many peoples that there is coal almost near the iron, red roses and red snaps almost near the sulfur...they want to have storage there too...then by a guild sto bot and put that there...with these keys you can hide your stuff but you cant be sure that next time you go it will be there...this what is called the risk what you have to take if your greedy!

 

Troger

Proud member of League of Groovy Gentlemen

 

edit: typos

Edited by Troger

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I don't get why is EL compared to RL (few examples in thread). I mean irl killing is pretty outlaw no? so then why is not posted in outlaw forum everybody who pk'ed someone? :P

You should read the outlaws forum sometime. Seems a fair proportion of "outlaw" posting are for just that thing, pk killing :)

 

Which reinforces my point about the vagueness of the term outlaw in the EL context and people's interpretations of outlawry. ;)

 

S.

 

Edit: clarity (I hope)

Edited by Spleenfeeder

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The poll question bugs me:

"If someone actively searched for your hyperbag then intentionally opened it without your permission and took the things you left there, would you consider that bagjumping?"

 

Does it actually mean "If someone found your bag without knowing the exact coordinates or being given specific directions by the owner; are they a bag jumper?"? If so, then I would regard that as not bagjumping. If you were to give someone the exact coordinates, and they went to find it and stole the contents, then yes, I would regard this as bagjumping. Simply finding a bag (unless you gave directions such as "it's near the tree on map X, on the eastern side" - which would technically be definite directions) on a map without knowing a bag is actually there (i.e., without prior knowledge) is pure luck. This isn't bag jumping, it's finders-keepers.

 

I think people need to start remembering that this is a game, and to stop taking it so bloody seriously.

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From my point of view it looks like people using hyperbags to make their lives easier are trying to force all the others to think that this is still their property and they keep rights to it. Moreover, they want to enforce this way of thinking as a community rule using various arguments.

I completely disagree with it and I do not want to even hear it is any kind of rule. If it is a community rule, then it's rather not my community. If it is not my community, the rule doesn't apply to me.

As Piper said, if you put $1000 on the floor, in the most crowded place in your city and put a stone on it, so nobody sees it you lose any rights to this cash. Even if you put it there not to have to a bank for later use. If somebody takes it I don't see anything wrong in it as I don't see anything wrong with using metal detectors for looking for ancient coins.

There's a huge difference between getting bag left by accident (death, teleport nexus, disconnection) and the hyperbag. The former are left unwillingly, the latter for purpose and with full free will and being aware of consequences.

I do not see anything wrong in collecting/poofing/whatever found hyperbags. You find it, it's yours - you win. Enjoy. You want to make your life easier and use hyperbag, somebody finds it, this person wins, you lose. Period. Hyperbags are not storage extension.

One request, do no create more and more so called community rules to cover anything that suits you.

 

 

There is a very vocal minority (most of whom I think will take hbags if given the chance) who want to say that making an hbag is tantamount to asking for it to be stolen and asking for it to be stolen makes it okay to steal what is in it. Nice rationalization and a great job of semantics too. Theft is still theft. If you want to say that theft is okay for Hbags because people know that theft is the risk you take when making them then they need to say that. Stop hiding behind semantics and rationalization and say theft is okay if it is against someone who took the risk of making an hbag.

 

I quoted Anshar because he seems to think that everyone has to play the game his way. We have to like everything his way. EL is a beta game. Changes will be made and the community will have to improvise, overcome and adapt. If you don't like the way the majority of the players in the game think then you are perfectly free to disagree with them. No one is telling you that you have to agree with anything. If you don't think that Hbag jumping is an outlaw offense then post that on the forum when someone gets posted for hbag jumping. Community rules are not 'created' in a committee to do anything. In case you missed it community rules are created when the majority of the community espouses a certain attitude and asserts a certain belief.

 

Community rules are not set by players banding together to write up stuff just to make the game the way they want it to be. That is a completely and totally outrageous notion and IMO completely ridiculous to even say. Community rules form themselves either through common sense, common courtesy or forum discussion. If a community rule is develop on the forum through debate then asking the majority to change how they feel about something to suit you is trying to tell them to play the game your way. If you don't like the majority opinion then don't abide by it and face the consequences. People who make hbags face the consequences and sometimes they get burned. Sometimes they get stuff back.

 

Getting posted for hbag jumping in outlaws is a warning to the rest of the community that a certain player hunts for or jumps hbags when they know the location. What is wrong with warning the community about someone who steals stuff whether the stuff in question was put at risk or not? I won't warn everyone I know who uses hbags about someone who might take it just because using hbags is risky? That would be incredibly inconsiderate to my friends who might get jumped because they saw that person near their hbag and trusted them when they shouldn't have and wouldn't have if I had warned them. If the community wants to know who jumps hbags then it has that right. The majority so far definitely want that right protected.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

 

*edit* Yes hbags being free game is Entropy's idea. Who says we have to play the way Entropy wants to and who actually does anyway? We find our own way to play as we go. This discussion is part of that process. If we are not cheating we can play any way we want. The majority opinion is the community opinion. That is why so many players come to this game and stay. When that gets changed is why people leave.

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