no a/d xp for undercappers in invances

[Maxine]

A lot of people are using the invances to get extra xp mulitple times a day by undercapping in higher level invances. I think that this is not fair and propose the following possible solutions:

 

Players can only get a/d xp in the invance appropriate for their level

 

OR

 

Players can only get xp once per 24 hours, in whichever invance they go first after the timer is up.

 

I think either way would work.

[Aislinn]

A lot of people are using the invances to get extra xp mulitple times a day by undercapping in higher level invances. I think that this is not fair and propose the following possible solutions:

 

Players can only get a/d xp in the invance appropriate for their level

 

OR

 

Players can only get xp once per 24 hours, in whichever invance they go first after the timer is up.

 

I think either way would work.

I like your second option best, as it allows for not being online when your level is up.

 

My issue is this:

Invances were intended to be run scattered throughout the day, 2 or 3 invances a day.

Not congruent levels right in a row so the same bunch of people is getting experience multiple times. It's starting to look a lot like farming.

 

Monkey see monkey do problem too. Nobody has initiative to get a group together unless they see one person do it then suddenly every level is lining up and fighting for a time slot before the first invance is even over. Again, that's not how they were intended to run.

 

The official stance on participating in multiple invances per day is: It's legal but not liked or encouraged. Once in a while, if it happens, oh well. But making a habit of it is not going to fly anymore.

 

I have taken requests out of courtesy to people in less populated time zones, and ones that I'm not in, so I can make a point to be around to accomodate those people. However that has been totally abused as you can see (Not by everyone, by the way). Also I wanted to give groups a fighting chance (pun intended) to win and not send in 5 people to guaranteed loss.

 

In theory, you might not get to go every day. Lot's don't. Some barely hit once a week (which I'm trying to fix). And here are some people complaining they can't go twice or three times a day. I am starting to lose my patience on this.

[Entropy]

Undercapping with the intent to get EXP (and not actually participating in the invance) is already against the rules. Give me the names of those who do it, and they will get a week ban.

[groomsh]

(and not actually participating in the invance)

I guess this is the weak point .. what is still considered participating ? (i think it mainly applies for rangers)

[Entropy]

Well, actually, the first suggestion sounds the best. Otherwise, people would just go to the highest instance, where they would range a few monsters, and get more exp than they deserve.

[evilmangopie]

Agree 100% with this idea, the first implementation sounds best to me.

 

I think there is also the very subjective issue of which undercappers are useful.

 

For instance (no pun intended pahaahah), people with 20s ranging, no AP and no perks have been "rangers" in 100+ instances, and in my opinion they would be little to no help and not deserve the healthy a/d experience.

 

Someone today was saying on chan 6 they would go to an invance as a mage, with 5 rationality and 30s magic. Lols

Edited August 2, 2011 by evilmangopie

[Aislinn]

Yeah, weighing the pros and cons of each, I agree radu's right.

First one it is!

[radu @ 6]: btw, next update, only those between the a/d get the exp, undercappers won't

[Elf_Ninja]

(and not actually participating in the invance)

I guess this is the weak point .. what is still considered participating ? (i think it mainly applies for rangers)

Yes i would be interested in knowing what is considered participating for rangers to. Generally if i go to 120+ lvl invance i spend 14k+ on pk arrows, help take down two or three dragons and at least one of the MB's along with helping fighters from the walls. And if i go to 100+ as ranger i spend about the same but i can also fight in that one which means i can get drops that i don't get in the 120+.

 

As a person who has gone to both i do enjoy the option as sometimes i miss one and am able to go to the other. I will also admit that i have gone to both back to back when they were offered that way after pming Aislinn to make sure that was ok as i'm already geared up and just have to buy arrows at time. But if i go as a ranger to either of them i generally loose gc, but i'm ok with that as i gain xp in the end and rangers with pk arrows help in both to take down some of the higher monsters much faster leading to more victories for all.

 

If the system is changed i will obey, but as Entropy pointed out people given the option will go to the one they make most xp on, i would. But fighters replying should also keep in mind that 120+ would loose a good 10 rangers i think if implemented.

[Panatella]

I have Archery Pot 23 and ranging level 31 (also WH perk) and i want to progress in this way because it would be a good alternative to classical fight. My a/d is actually 91/94. I would like to participate as ranger to the upper 100 invance but if there is no XP reward i don't see why i will spend lots of gc for PK arrows Ofc it is fun, but the fun-only didn't do all.

 

If the system is changed i will obey, but as Entropy pointed out people given the option will go to the one they make most xp on, i would. But fighters replying should also keep in mind that 120+ would loose a good 10 rangers i think if implemented.

 

Honestly... Don't know what i can suggest but... it's just my humble statement about "restrictions".

[hormania]

I have Archery Pot 23 and ranging level 31 (also WH perk) and i want to progress in this way because it would be a good alternative to classical fight. My a/d is actually 91/94. I would like to participate as ranger to the upper 100 invance but if there is no XP reward i don't see why i will spend lots of gc for PK arrows Ofc it is fun, but the fun-only didn't do all.

 

If the system is changed i will obey, but as Entropy pointed out people given the option will go to the one they make most xp on, i would. But fighters replying should also keep in mind that 120+ would loose a good 10 rangers i think if implemented.

 

Honestly... Don't know what i can suggest but... it's just my humble statement about "restrictions".

 

Just take training arrows in this case. If you don't get the exp in the end, you are not really part of the invance team anyway. So nobody will blame you if you just use it as a possibility for range training. And nobody goes training ranging with pk arrows.

 

That would be my conclusion. It's crap for the invance team for sure, but if you don't get a share of drops/exp... That's how it goes in this case i guess...

[learg]

What if ppl would be able to enter invance with their cap or one just next of their cap and only once per day(?) get exp? You can go to higher lvl invances but don't get the exp for them. I think it can help a bit when invances will be generated automatically or with some schedule. Maybe one of them will be in appropriate time paly.

[Maxine]

I do a lot of ranging in regular invasions, mainly Icy and MB, and only get rang xp then. If I join a few players taking down MB and/or drags, I usually get a share of the drops which pays in part for my pk arrows and makes me coming back to help those players. With this change it would be the same for invances over my level, I just don't have to wait for people to run an invasion.

I have seen lots of rangers not participating to the fullest in the 120+ invance, harvesting at the end, and still get the juicy xp. To me that is more unfair than only getting range xp (and drops) for helping out with ranging. If this means there will not be enough rangers in the 120+ invance, then maybe the fighters will show more appreciation for the undercappers, instead of griping about the people getting double a/d xp opportunities.

[Devnul]

I understand what the issue is, first option also looks like the easiest way to fix it. However (this is my private opinion) for some good rangers that are lower on A/D it can be unfair.

I am 100s A/D and I join only 120+ instvance. I have more friends in that range, this instvance is a bigger challenge, plus I think my archery skill is helping a lot. I always take 350PKs so the cost is higher then drop shares from MB (<3 to all fighters that share). Sometimes I even run around with single tank taking down lost Ice Dragons.

 

Maybe cap for EXP reward might be based not only on A/D, but also on ranging skill? All players would also appreciate if we can have different looks for PKs quiver (you can say who is ranging to kill and who is only pretending … with trainings) but this is separate topic.

 

IMHO option for "one EXP reward per day" could fix the experience farmers issue. As for the cheaters (yes, cheaters) that do not help on instance, they will be simply banned for breaking rules.

 

I hope that game designers will find the best solution.

[Khalai]

I would just simply add one more conditition. If you are not over 120 a/d AND you are not either over (e.g.) 40 ranging with 25AP, you don't get any experience. I hardly think that there will be enough 40+ archers with 25AP just pretending...

[Vidriel]

No offense, but for me it sounds like too much speculations for those who like +200/400xp per level more than in their own invance ... or, want cash reward more than once a day. I know sometimes you feel sorry you missed your range and want to join at least the powerful one as ranger (or you have there friends, get some drop or whatever) - I know what I am talking about, I missed a lot of them.

 

But hey, invance is not daily quest, you don't HAVE to go in one every day or two! I am really surprised hearing people calculating with those exp like with something you are really missing if you don't get them regularly...

 

So why to add an exception only for few people who are considered as "really good and helpful rangers" and the others are just shooting with trainings or are so low that they are not really helpful...

(again please, no offense, ranger 47 with full AP and ER perk here)

 

So I agree with the suggestion, both seems fine to me - xp appropriate the level of participant or only one reward per day.

(Although the first option keeps the door open for possibility to go more than once at least.)

 

#edit: typos and:

 

Ohh as Aislinn posted, solution "no exp for undercappers" does not sound bad at all - at least it will solve all the problems. You cannot fight in capped invasions too, so why in invances. I bet 120+ people got enough good rangers as well, look at the top players...

Edited August 3, 2011 by Vidriel

[learg]

I have another idea:

 

you can enter invance once a day, you can undercap but you get exp like for your range invance.

[Devnul]

I have another idea:

 

you can enter invance once a day, you can undercap but you get exp like for your range invance.

 

I like this idea very much!

[Gwaew]

Hi,

as a passionate archer I second a more "balanced" solution like

you can enter invance once a day, you can undercap but you get exp like for your range invance.

or

... AND you are not either over (e.g.) 40 ranging with 25AP, you don't get any experience

 

I do enjoy entering invances titeled above my close combat skills, but take a quiver full of PK arrows (and even restock them) , thus complying fully with radu's initial restriction / rule about banning those that entered but did NOT help considerably in defending the fort / do their significant share of damage to the invading monsters.

 

While I agree with Maxine that "only" getting some ranging experience for your actual hits during the invance and some gold "donations" of those fighters who do share might also be worth your while, I'd surely appreciate at least some of the "Instance-won-reward" all the fighters get.

 

IMHO an even more detailed logic would give "both" groups defending Iscalrith a fair share of the reward (yes, I left out mages in this one... feel free to add logic for them):

 

Fighters: If the fall into the indented range for the invance, they will get the regular a/d bonus in the end - undercappers would be considered "unable to deal a significant share of damage (in close combat)" and thus not get a/d reward.

 

Archers: They can obviously only help defending the fort in a significant manner if their skill (and maybe AP) is high enough, but since they wouldn't be able to deal heavy damage in close combat (if undercapping) they'd not get a/d experience but ranging experience instead (corresponding to the way in which they helped defend the fort).

 

==> Formula (Psudo-code):

IF (a/d is in invance range) { 
 reward = (full) invance-specific a/d exp bonus
} ELSE* IF (ranging is in invance-appropriate skill-range**) {
 reward = invance-specific ranging exp bonus
} ELSE {
 reward = 0
}

 

* Important here: ranging exp is only given, if participant is NOT elgible for a/d reward (you can't get both, of course, just because your abilities fit both categories)

** I think the requirements for raning skill (and possibly AP) should also vary with the invance difficulty (i.e. you hardly need to be a lvl 50 / 25 AP ranger for 60/80 invance!)

 

Also: The above quoted decreased a/d-reward for undercapping fighters (suggested by learg) could easily be added to this formula, if deemed appropricate by radu.

[aredhel]

I have another idea:

 

you can enter invance once a day, you can undercap but you get exp like for your range invance.

 

I like this idea very much!

 

Yes I think this is the easiest solution that solves all the mentioned issues.

 

EDIT: possible modification to make the invance-addicts happy: you can enter your range or undercapped as often as you like, but you get XP reward only once every 4 EL days, according to your true a/d range

Edited August 4, 2011 by aredhel

[learg]

What would you say to the idea of choosing one's proffesion at the begining of the invance? You could serve as fighter or archer. Archers should have caps based on ranging lvl and AP. IMO they should get rang exp as reward, but it won't/shouldn't be the same as for fighters. To not to scum should be other conditions, e.g. archers cannot have any melee weapon in inv. Maybe there should be added some archers spots/facilities like towers or platforms.

 

I realise that it's the hardest concept to implement, but maybe worth some discussion and work.

 

#edit: typo

Edited August 5, 2011 by learg

[Devnul]

Radu please share with us your opinion on bellow idea.

 

1. You can enter (or get reward) invance once per 24h.

2. You can enter higher invance (same as it is right now) but you will get exp reward like for your range.

3. If you don’t help you will be banned.

[Aislinn]

We've been discussing this, and I in no way am speaking for him, I'll point this question out to him, but I can tell you that from our discussions, I see these two problems:

 

1. People will abandon their own range and come to 120+ level, hurting those who still want to go in their own range but now don't have enough to make a decent sized team. It's hard enough now to get enough at any given time for 3/5 ranges.

 

2. The definition of acceptable help is still very much unresolved, and even more complex and questionable when people are undercapping.

[Maxine]

My suggestion:

1. You only get a/d xp in your own range invance. No issue with only once per 24 hours, since they dont get done more often.

 

2. If you go into a higher invance, you can range. You then receive RANGE xp based on the DAMAGE you did. Maybe even choose to go as a ranger into your own range invance for range xp.

Since range damage scales with level, equipment and perks, I think this would be the most fair measure to determine ran xp, not a multiplier of the earned ranging xp (trainers give same xp as pk-arrows). I think a

ran-xp = 10 x damage

might be the right order of magnitude.

 

I hope that a damage based formula is possible, then the issue of 'did you really help' is automatically solved.

[forum_andy]

My suggestion:

1. You only get a/d xp in your own range invance. No issue with only once per 24 hours, since they dont get done more often.

 

2. If you go into a higher invance, you can range. You then receive RANGE xp based on the DAMAGE you did. Maybe even choose to go as a ranger into your own range invance for range xp.

Since range damage scales with level, equipment and perks, I think this would be the most fair measure to determine ran xp, not a multiplier of the earned ranging xp (trainers give same xp as pk-arrows). I think a

 

ran-xp = 10 x damage

 

 

might be the right order of magnitude.

 

I hope that a damage based formula is possible, then the issue of 'did you really help' is automatically solved.

 

Hello,

I don't like the idea that ranger will get additionally range xp in or after finishing an invance.

If this would be implemented, I think that the most player will join as ranger.

Means that there will be to less fighter, so that it won't be possible to finish it anymore.

 

Sadly I don't have ideas how to solve this problem. Would be sad if invances will be taken out of game because of some this, in my eyes they were a really great idea.

[Aislinn]

He's already changed it, it's just waiting for the next update.

It's going to be as originally stated: People will only get experience only in their appropriate level.