Level dependant potions

[Pyewacket]

Looking at the way things seem to be gearing up ingame with regards new and existing things now leaning towards level dependancy (RC mines, magic, summons) I am not sure if I am posting this as a suggestion or an enquiry into when it will be implemented ingame..

 

Basically the way we're headed I am wondering if having potion duration and effect will become level dependant upon the person using/drinking them? Yes I know, theres countless millions of suggestion topics regarding potions and the possible uses/side effect etc etc, however I feel that since the game seems to be taking the trend towards this level dependancy approach I would just post afresh. If its felt that this is wrong please either delete this thread or move it to general chat as an enquiry instead (thanks) and i will risk teh fall out there.

 

Anyways, back to the actual suggestion/query..the way I see it working since there are potions that are effect only and instant duration, so in that instance the drinkers pots level would probably have to be equal to the minimum required level to make the potion in order to be the base line for any effect, and all additional levels after that would count towards the bonus for the effect (I wont even attempt to post an example of a formula here, am sure that theres enough to go on without my feeble attempts at algebra).

 

Anyone below the recommended mixing level for the effect-only potion will just get the base level effect anyway (in other words, the amount already given when drinking an SR). High level potion skills would produce greater effects (so if SR is an example, then instead of getting the "normal" mana when drunk, a bonus of 1 point could be added after x amounts of levels per pots skill of the drinker).

 

From a bigger picture point of view, I realise this might appear to affect the potions market since fighters would be gaining greater benefit from SR and therefore no longer requiring as many EMP (possibly forcing emp price to drop) but then you have to remember that EMP (extra mana potions) would also have the same bonus effect added from the drinkers potion level and therefore STILL would be very much needed for pkers.

 

Potions that have a duration, of course, would require that duration to be level dependant on the drinker, instead of the effect, with the required mixing level being used as a baseline once again.

 

I suggest the recommended mixing level of the potions as a starting point simply because as a layman this seems the ideal middleground to build from on any bonus effects/duration. How the actual game mechanics would be affected if it was implemented AT using them I havent the foggiest and leave that in the hands of those who know best. It might be that a higher level would be better to start giving bonus's from to ensure that game balance is not buggered up completely.

 

 

One thing that HAS occured to me though is that there will be an awful lot of fighters/pkers suddenly wanting to get their potions levels moving once again (those that removed their veg nex and gave up pots already AND the new fighters that havent even tried pots much/at all yet)...kinda forces them to become more rounded players if they wish to benefit from the added pots bonuses suggested here.

 

Ok, I think that about covers the idea, so its either a suggestion to what might come or an enquiry to when it will happen depending on what direction potion skill game-planning is taking.

 

*edit: one small point I forgot: potions giving effect and duration (such as manu potion) would have to have bonus added to duration only, I think, since having added manu levels might be viewed as too much of a game imbalance and impacts on the God quest bonus becoming eventually obsolete.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Pyewacket

[XaRondas]

One thing that HAS occured to me though is that there will be an awful lot of fighters/pkers suddenly wanting to get their potions levels moving once again (those that removed their veg nex and gave up pots already AND the new fighters that havent even tried pots much/at all yet)...kinda forces them to become more rounded players if they wish to benefit from the added pots bonuses suggested here.

 

A fighter training a/d above fluffie level 95+ spends 50 SRs maybe less at a training session of 4 hours, if the fighter takes 4 veg and eventually levels to potion level 70 (its not that hard (~65-70k SRs)) , he will be 50 levels above recommended level and he will gain more time at the spawn and have a limited cost out of SRs (imho its already limited)... and then either reset or take 4 veg removals without loosing the effect of his pot level.

 

Comparing advancing in summoning and potioning , i think potioning is simple and fast (emu of ings, vials can be bought from npc etc) , summoning is a different story (i haven t tried it yet) but emu of ings and cost of fur is scary. So imho i think thats why Ent made this changes to summoning ... i am not mentioning magic cause its a formula with attributes + level.

[Ermabwed]

This makes absolutely no sense at all, no offense pye.

 

Have a look:

Engineering: a handyman should be better in assembling an IKEA shelf than somebody with the proverbial two left hands. Makes sense.

Potion: a brewer should get higher blood alcohol by one beer than your average joe. Doesn't make sense.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Ermabwed

[Troger]

This makes absolutely no sense at all, no offense pye.

 

Have a look:

Engineering: a handyman should be better in assembling an IKEA shelf than somebody with the proverbial two left hands. Makes sense.

Potion: a brewer should get higher blood alcohol by one beer than your average joe. Doesn't make sense.

lol erma, now that you say a brewer should get less alcoohol because he is working everyday with it and has a bit of immunity on it:P

[Pyewacket]

Actually Erma, what I am suggesting, to use your own analogy, is that a high level potioner will be well aware the drinking the beer thru a straw will increase its effect

 

Someone not as used to beers as the potioner may well be completely unaware of the benefits of drinking the potion of beer in the prescribed manner and so miss out on the additional benefits (poor joe eh?).

 

As for draugluin:

and eventually levels

says it all?

[XaRondas]

How would this suggestion help the game/economy?

[Ermabwed]

Actually Erma, what I am suggesting, to use your own analogy, is that a high level potioner will be well aware the drinking the beer thru a straw will increase its effect

 

Someone not as used to beers as the potioner may well be completely unaware of the benefits of drinking the potion of beer in the prescribed manner and so miss out on the additional benefits (poor joe eh?).

Yes, I realized that one could argue that somebody who knows his way around potions might be able to drink them "at just the right time" or in "precisely the right manner" or something, however, as there are no "straws" or other tools involved in using potions at the moment, I don't think this would justify a large difference of effect.

 

A straw made from glass (1 quartz, 1 fe; needs vial mold) to use with potions and changing the potion's effect (enhancing, lessening, altering) would be fun, should break easily though; the effect would depend mostly on this tool however and not really on your potion level.

[Khalai]

lol erma, now that you say a brewer should get less alcoohol because he is working everyday with it and has a bit of immunity on it:P

 

Up-regulation process of P450 cytochrome in liver? Wow, EL is getting realistic

[Pyewacket]

..snip..

Yes, I realized that one could argue that somebody who knows his way around potions might be able to drink them "at just the right time" or in "precisely the right manner" or something, however, as there are no "straws" or other tools involved in using potions at the moment, I don't think this would justify a large difference of effect.

 

A straw made from glass (1 quartz, 1 fe; needs vial mold) to use with potions and changing the potion's effect (enhancing, lessening, altering) would be fun, should break easily though; the effect would depend mostly on this tool however and not really on your potion level.

 

Actually I am gonna rely on the defence here that a high level summoner doesnt need additional items to improve the superiority of his summons, and RC mines dont rely on additional tools to improve the damage given by being planted by a high level engineer. Its just "coz".

[Ermabwed]

Well, but you could say that an engineer has a better understanding of how to place the mines and a summoner has a better understanding of the actual process involved in summoning a creature, whereas somebody drinking a potion is just opening the bottle and slurping the contents (yea, this doesn't work with summoning stones, I know, but that speaks rather against the summoning stones getting that 'bonus' than for potions)

I'd say changing your suggestion towards introducing a "straw" or something that gives the desired/suggested effect in combination with potions and with possible side effects ("You snorted the def pot up your nose and are now dizzy (dexterity -5) for 15 seconds instead of getting a defense bonus") would be the way to go here

[Entropy]

Actually Erma, what I am suggesting, to use your own analogy, is that a high level potioner will be well aware the drinking the beer thru a straw will increase its effect

 

That's total bullshit.

 

And I totally agree with Ermabwed on this, it makes no sense.

If we could have unique items, it would make sense that high level potioners produce better potions, but a higher effect for using them, no way.

Potion is just about mixing ingredients, while placing mines is a matter of skill, magic is a matter of skill, and summoning is a matter of skill.

[Pyewacket]

Actually Erma, what I am suggesting, to use your own analogy, is that a high level potioner will be well aware the drinking the beer thru a straw will increase its effect

 

That's total bullshit.

 

And I totally agree with Ermabwed on this, it makes no sense.

If we could have unique items, it would make sense that high level potioners produce better potions, but a higher effect for using them, no way.

Potion is just about mixing ingredients, while placing mines is a matter of skill, magic is a matter of skill, and summoning is a matter of skill.

which makes this less of a query into when its gonna happen (coz it aint) and more of a suggestion that happens to be bullshit. kk, never was good enough a potion maker to wanna argue for it being considered a bonafied skill anyways. no worries.

[RogerDeLluria]

If we could have unique items, it would make sense that high level potioners produce better potions,

 

Actually that is a good idea and can be achieved to some extent without needing unique items.

Just make the chances of getting EMP's and GH, to depend (just a little bit) on potioner skill, so that high lvl potioners have a (slightly) better rate.

[Vanyel]

If we could have unique items, it would make sense that high level potioners produce better potions,

 

Actually that is a good idea and can be achieved to some extent without needing unique items.

Just make the chances of getting EMP's and GH, to depend (just a little bit) on potioner skill, so that high lvl potioners have a (slightly) better rate.

 

 

 

I was always wondering why there aren't any enriched potions, but Greater Healing or Extra Mana potion.

An enriched potion could give the double effect and a chance of getting it may increase with potion's level.

I know it has been suggested in the past, but why not to reconsider it?

[Pyewacket]

perhaps an enriched version of "effect/duration" potions such as a manu potion that could be level dependant? am sure there would be considerable interest to get a hold of an enriched manu or crafting potion if the drinkers pot level was what decided the effective level boost would be. and this would not be out of turn with the drinkers skill being what has determined the potion being so effective, since it is the person that created it that has imbued their skill/luck into making it so effective vs the drinkers abilities...if that makes any more sense? and no additional tool use needed

 

I have used craft and manu pots here just as examples of course, it could be applied to other enriched as suggested originally by vanyel, i just figured suggesting tying it in with a level dependancy and a possible way it might "make sense".

[Entropy]

The reason why the enriched stuff is not based on the level is dual:

1. To give new players a fair chance to sell their stuff at a competitive price.

2. To keep the number of the enriched stuff under control and easy to modify.

[Vanyel]

perhaps an enriched version of "effect/duration" potions such as a manu potion that could be level dependant? am sure there would be considerable interest to get a hold of an enriched manu or crafting potion if the drinkers pot level was what decided the effective level boost would be. and this would not be out of turn with the drinkers skill being what has determined the potion being so effective, since it is the person that created it that has imbued their skill/luck into making it so effective vs the drinkers abilities...if that makes any more sense? and no additional tool use needed

 

It doesn't make sense at all. It has been discussed above.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Vanyel

[TirunCollimdus]

Better ingredients, better potions Pyewacket John's. Actually making better potions has historically been based on knowing when and how to harvest your ingredient. Culling mistletoe under a full moon with a silver sickle, digging up a particular plant instead of damaging the roots, etc.. There is real life anecdotes for this whether said potions were actually effective or not and it is also all through literature concerning magic, potions and whatnot. Some say it makes better potions and some say if you don't do it right then a potion won't work at all.

 

In EL you would have a potioner know more about how to harvest, mine, kill things correctly to get the ingredient into the potion in the correct condition to make it more effective. I am aware that this will never be put into game but I thought I would give a basis for it nonetheless. EL is going to be around for a long time and no one knows what the future will bring. Who knows maybe having a high enough potion and/or harvest or attack level will make a difference in the distant future.

 

Saying something is a bad idea because it doesn't make sense just means you haven't spent enough time justifying it. lol Anything can be made to make sense if you try hard enough.

 

Tirun

[Entropy]

Tirun's idea is great (harvest ingredients at different times), but unfortunately we have the unique items problem :/ But I'll think and see if I can find a way around it.

[Asterix]

Am I missing something here? We already have "enriched" versions of a couple of potions in that making a SR has a "set" chance to make an EMP. So it sounds like this is already in place! All you need to do IMO is make the chance level dependant instead of fixed and add enhanced versions of other potion if desired. The enhance potions all having their own expensive formula as well of course.

 

And this would make sense for things other than potioning, such as chance to make EFE or modable swords.

[Pyewacket]

Yep you are missing that small but significant fact that having the creation of enriched items become level dependant would not be good for game balance or the economy when the quantities of efe/emp/eme/ele and other such items suddenly double/treble ingame overnight.

 

as it is, entropy keeps on top of item levels ingame for these things and tweaks the mixing rates accordingly when stock levels fluctuate one way or the other to a certain degree...cant have it accumulating levels beyond his acceptable margins or the whole market would no doubt suffer from excess stock floods.

[Asterix]

Except that making it level dependant rather than fixed rate does not necessarily mean a greater overall rate of enriched items. The level dependant formulas could be set to produce enriched items at the same rate for a high level character therefore a lower rate for EL as a whole. Factoring in Artificer Cape effects may complicate it but I don't see how there is guaranteed to be a "flood". Balance is still possible, just favouring the high levels a bit more, it's not a bad idea if you want to reward those that worked to get high level characters while still giving low levels characters a chance to create something special.

[Pyewacket]

It may seem that way at first glance, but take into account the large number of already high levelled players in either alchemy or potions and it would soon become apparent that its time to build that ark...failing that the game would need entropy tweaking the mixing % for the level dependancy at a much more regular rate, since the upper margins would be hit continually when the majority of players decide to alch or potion.

 

Not only that, but as the system stands, a relatively new player has a good chance to mix an enriched item and make some early money ingame, taking away(or siginificantly lowering) their chances to do so until theyre sufficiently high enough in a skill, is unfair. I am pretty certain this particular arguement has been used before and rejected on these same grounds.

[revi]

In addition, high levels are already 'rewarded' by a lower fail rate, which can save quite a bit of money/time, esp. for higher level items (e.g. seridium bars, or even gold bars). Is there really a need to skew the game in favour of high level players?

[TirunCollimdus]

Tirun's idea is great (harvest ingredients at different times), but unfortunately we have the unique items problem :/ But I'll think and see if I can find a way around it.

 

If you don't mind this idea benefiting only the potioners in question and not the harvesters then how about having the harvesting at the correct time directly affect potion making. A clock starts running on correctly harvested ingredients to simulate special ingredients being used at the correct time and fresh just like they were harvested. The higher level your potion is the longer you have to use the special ingredients you harvested. This way you still have the same stuff in storage and the actual act of harvesting at the right time is what changes your potions.

 

The only thing I cannot figure out is if you can make sure this is not abused by people starting to harvest and then going to make a whole bunch of stuff based on a one item harvest. If you can work a way to limit how many potions are based on harvesting time or actual items harvested then you could just skip the whole unique item problem completely. Do it all with math instead. You harvest this much stuff at this appointed time and your skill is affected by this much for this many potions.

 

I think the server tracks pretty much everything that happens so that makes this idea workable right?

 

Tirun