Debating Contest

[Roman]

Hi this week's moot is "Should No more tears(NMT) cloaks be breakable". Everyone feel free to state your opionion, you can do so several times without being repeative. State wheather you are affarmitve or negative, then you opionion. A judge will decide which side had the best the agruement and award them the prize. There will also be a best Debater prize given each week. So go ahead have a go. This contest will be held on the forum not at WS town hall.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Drujen

[Stricken]

If the nmt were made breakable, then we could have more ingame... but to balance it out we'd have em breakable... I do believe that if we allowed them to break we'd have many less nmt in game and it would drastically decrease the cost of the cape.... being 400k+ its very hard to obtain one these days, i mean you can look and find em all over but i still say make em breakable... i mean having 1 item that can only be broken by a brod whats the fun in that? I know it's "hard earned" but damn... what harm could it cause???

 

Basically I think it'd be nice to make it so more people can have one and not just Tom with his daddys credit-card

 

=/

 

-Q

[Wizzy]

Well this is not the place for the debate, so stop trying to make on here strick...let the debate happen in WS debate arena....

[Roman]

Jumpy the debate is going to be held on this forum not the WS town hall anymore. Feel free to say your opionion.

[Stricken]

Jumpy it's a contest type thing so i think it fits fine \o/

[Vanyel]

I just wonder what's an aim of repeating the very same debate that has been hold in General Chat. The only difference I can think of is a judge (referee?) that will decide which side won.

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.p...l=NMT+breakable

http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=38286

 

<edit>

To make it clear. I think that this type of event might be interesting, yet, the proposed topic is not a good one.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Kheres

[Soul]

The NMT has been breakable for quite a while, and many people were happy that they have an item that won't ever break.

First of all, if the NMT would be made breakable, the economy would have to suffer, and so, the price of it will decrease. Due to this decrease of the price, many of the people will try to get rind of them as soon as posible, as you can see on market forum or channel.

Second, the NMT is a very rare cape that only some people should have, the ones that really put heart in this game and work alot just to make their dreams come true. So, I consider that the price for the NMT is sometimes too low because of it's features.

After discussion economical and fantasy matters, my opinion is that it shouldn't be breakable.

My opinion only

Shadow_of_Death

[pepperspray]

Second, the NMT is a very rare cape that only some people should have, the ones that really put heart in this game and work alot just to make their dreams come true.

Shadow_of_Death

 

more reason to make NMT nexus requirement higher, say same as Artificer Cloak

[Learner]

All items in the game should be breakable, or eventually it will be devalued just by the glut of items in the game. An important item that is hard to get and that is desired to be an expensive it, should have a very slim chance to break. Any changes to break ability should be phased in, such as making an item breakable but very hard to break, and then over time adjusting the break rate to the desired level. This helps in adjusting both the economy & the players getting used to stuff instead of sudden changes that make players upset.

 

In summary, NMT should be breakable to prevent flooding, but it should be very hard to break initially and over time the break & drop rates can be adjusted too keep the desired balance. If the NMT stays unbreakable, then it's more a question of how long it will be before their value is below 10kgc!

[Wizzy]

All items in the game should be breakable, or eventually it will be devalued just by the glut of items in the game. An important item that is hard to get and that is desired to be an expensive it, should have a very slim chance to break. Any changes to break ability should be phased in, such as making an item breakable but very hard to break, and then over time adjusting the break rate to the desired level. This helps in adjusting both the economy & the players getting used to stuff instead of sudden changes that make players upset.

 

In summary, NMT should be breakable to prevent flooding, but it should be very hard to break initially and over time the break & drop rates can be adjusted too keep the desired balance. If the NMT stays unbreakable, then it's more a question of how long it will be before their value is below 10kgc!

 

This is true only if the amount of un-breakable items dropped are more then new active players coming into the game. If 100 people start playing, and 2 nmt's are dropped in a span of 2 weeks. There will be 98 players looking to buy 1 which will keep the price high,,Supply and demand.. It is a simple equation.

[Learner]

All items in the game should be breakable, or eventually it will be devalued just by the glut of items in the game. An important item that is hard to get and that is desired to be an expensive it, should have a very slim chance to break. Any changes to break ability should be phased in, such as making an item breakable but very hard to break, and then over time adjusting the break rate to the desired level. This helps in adjusting both the economy & the players getting used to stuff instead of sudden changes that make players upset.

 

In summary, NMT should be breakable to prevent flooding, but it should be very hard to break initially and over time the break & drop rates can be adjusted too keep the desired balance. If the NMT stays unbreakable, then it's more a question of how long it will be before their value is below 10kgc!

 

This is true only if the amount of un-breakable items dropped are more then new active players coming into the game. If 100 people start playing, and 2 nmt's are dropped in a span of 2 weeks. There will be 98 players looking to buy 1 which will keep the price high,,Supply and demand.. It is a simple equation.

You also need to take into account that as the number or players climb, so does the number of people that can kill the monsters that drop it. That means that the drop rate will be climbing for a while and won't level off until you reach the point of multiple people camping at each spawn prepared to serp them just to get the chance for an NMT (as opposed to training).

[Wizzy]

That may be true. I dont have any statistics infront of me. I would love to see the logs and and the drop rates of NMT. After killing 10,000 fluffys and feros, and a few chims and yeties. I have yet to get a rare drop. Would not your argument be true for arti cloaks also? How are they ever going to break? Burned by an EFE? I dont see anyone screaming that there are too many arti cloaks in game. NMT's are selling on market now higher then I ever remember. Which would mean there is a high demand for them at the moment.

[Learner]

That may be true. I dont have any statistics infront of me. I would love to see the logs and and the drop rates of NMT. After killing 10,000 fluffys and feros, and a few chims and yeties. I have yet to get a rare drop. Would not your argument be true for arti cloaks also? How are they ever going to break? Burned by an EFE? I dont see anyone screaming that there are too many arti cloaks in game. NMT's are selling on market now higher then I ever remember. Which would mean there is a high demand for them at the moment.

There is good luck & bad luck, so things tend to balance out. The overall drop rate per day or week is then determined by how many kills there are in the long run.

[robotbob]

The excavator cloak should be made breakable by radon blasts and wall collapses or everyone in the

game will have one and the market will be flooded by ores.

 

No no wait.

 

The fast regen cloak should be made breakable by time worn or everyone in the game will have one and

people will be able to recover mana/health far too fast.

 

No...I mean

 

The monster mag cloak needs to randomly break while walking or everyone will have one and noobs

will get a free ride being able to explore el without fear of monsters, thereby ...

 

Nope dangit..I think Jumpy made my point:

 

Would not your argument be true for arti cloaks also? How are they ever going to break? Burned by an

EFE? I dont see anyone screaming that there are too many arti cloaks in game.

 

If the NMT can destroy the game with fewer broken items, why didn't the exc cape do it with 2x the ores

for a mere 2.9k?

[Wizzy]

Personaly I dont think there are fewer broken items in game with NMT as opposed without. By using an nmt and COL people are trainning on MOB's higher then there level. Meaning more broken COL's as oppsed to more broken leather helms. More broken steel/tit plate armor, beacuse people are using them more. Not many people train in leather set on ogres, when they could be trainning on fluffy with COL and getting much better experience. The top players may complain about all this fast leveling. This just means there are more people to pk that can put up a little better of a fight. Also, I have yet to see a top 20 player trainning yetis with full leather. All where COL, and NMT full plate armor and use a sword to hit the darn things. Meaning, more COL, Swords, Armor broken, as compared to 130 AD players being stuck trainning fluffy, or feros and getting very little experience.

[XaRondas]

I can t understand why some players are so afraid changing stuff in the game.

As all items i believe that nmt should have a breaking rate or eventually all players in the game would have the cape because more and more get to higher levels

And some reasons mentioned above about the other capes, like worn out by time or while walking etc, i am sorry to say but its and show fear of changing,

and if it is so how about doing this to armors also (worn out by time if not used ).

 

 

 

My point is don t be afraid to change, everything changes from time to time ...

 

Draugluin

Edited November 20, 2007 by draugluin1

[Wizzy]

I can t understand why some players are so afraid changing stuff in the game.

As all items i believe that nmt should have a breaking rate or eventually all players in the game would have the cape because more and more get to higher levels

And some reasons mentioned above about the other capes, like worn out by time or while walking etc, i am sorry to say but its and show fear of changing,

and if it is so how about doing this to armors also (worn out by time if not used ).

 

 

 

My point is don t be afraid to change, everything changes from time to time ...

 

Draugluin

 

I don't think any one is afraid of changes in game. In the past years I have been playing there have been a heck of a lot of changes. Some fantatsitc, some not so popular. The issue here is if a change is needed? I for one do not belive there is. But like I say, I can not give a defenent awnser if the NMT is a problem. If we all knew

1) How many nmt's are in game

2) How many are sitting in inactive players storage

3) How many new cloaks are dropped every week.

4) How many new players join EL game every week

5) How many cloaks are branched/acid rain every week

6) How many forget rosto drop in a bad, and have bag poof before they get back

 

Without the data, it is impossible to tell if we will suddenly be flooded with nmts selling for 3K on market channel by chatering bots. I would say, only radu, roja, possibably learner and a few other devs would have access to this information. Without it, everything Yay or Nay is just an opinion. I state mine, for the market still seems heathy for the nmt at the moment. And I belive the drop rate can be controlled. So maybe it should stay a floating value to how many are in game, compared to how many people are actively playing.

 

Jumpy

[Stricken]

I agree with Learner...

 

I mean lots of people i mean LOTS are on flufs these days. Me and progress serp them almost every day just for hopes of a nmt drop. I mean there are so many nmts in game..... no 1 needs em so no 1 buys em and when they do no 1 has a spair or has 1 they want to sell. It's like every 1 and their ficus has 1... I mean whats the difference in using up all your armor training ? as is breaking nmt and buying a new 1 with moer hard work.. That shows who is really into working hard. I mean sheesh not that hard to make 200ka nd if nmt is breakable and droprate is increased i'd expect the old 200kgc for a nmt to be there and yes I'd buy 1 for that. But until we have a definant idea of how much it's gonna cost or if it'll break... i'll just hope i get 1i n a drop no point in going out and saving up 400kgc and buying 1 and then if it does become breakable i lose all the gc i worked hard for. I just would like to see the game balanaced out and having everything breakable would be very cool

[korrode]

All items in the game should be breakable, or eventually it will be devalued just by the glut of items in the game.

 

...

 

If the NMT stays unbreakable, then it's more a question of how long it will be before their value is below 10kgc!

How about we wait until we at least see this trend start to begin (if it ever does, which i'm not convinced it will).

Right now it's the opposite. The NMT's availability is decreasing, and it's price is rising.

NMT's used to be 150-200k, why not wait until the average market price drops to under 150k at least before considering making it breakable... it wont hurt to wait and see will it? and if you're right Learner and it does start to drastically drop in price and rise in availability, then so be it; make it breakable. If it doesn't, leave it unbreakable. No harm done either way.

 

 

if nmt is breakable and droprate is increased i'd expect the old 200kgc for a nmt to be there and yes I'd buy 1 for that.

I wouldn't.

At the risk of having bad luck and breaking multiple NMT's a week (and dont try and tell me it'd never happen, cause there's many threads where people actually think something is wrong with items break rates because they had very bad luck). I'd take the perk, i think many others would also... and who knows what repercussions that could have. Safer to leave NMT as it is, at least until these negative effects many people keep talking about start to actually manifest.

 

 

A judge will decide

And who exactly is impartial enough to be this judge? on this particular subject, i cant think of anyone. Edited November 21, 2007 by Korrode

[Guest Annatira]

I will be judging this particular debate only because I have some debate experience and I was asked. The winner of a debate may not necessarily change anyone's opinions. I will be judging based on convincing argument and style.

 

And if anyone has suggestions for topics they would like to see debated, please let Roman know, this is his attempt to see if there is interest and players who want to participate.

[Wizzy]

Taking the perk, is an option. At overall 115 it will take me close to a month to get the 7 pick points to spend on a perk. For the folks above 140 overall it may well take them close to a year. A change like this is too drastic in my humble opinion. I think it would be much better to have a set determined number/ratio of nmt's to active players in game. If one leaves game through a Brod, rain, #kill_me or bag poof. Then the drop could be activated. When it is back to that set number set_drop to zero.

[Vanyel]

Yet, considering the fact the cape is unbreakable, people hardly risk using/getting BroDs, usually before #killme they give their stuff out (let's ignore the rain possibility, afaik it was Chaoo who lost quite a lot afkign during rain ) it would mean that only a very small, elitary group of players would have the cape, right? I think it would be a very bad solution.

I tend to agree with Learner, there shouldn't be any unbreakable item in the game. Aforementioned artificier cape is breakable as well. You may lose it taking it instead of powersaving cape (happens to me from time to time). So goes for most of the capes. Why would there be any exception to it?

Edited November 21, 2007 by Kheres

[RotationZ]

Opinion: Not Breakable

 

Reason:

All things break (THUS)

Something needs to be unbreakable (exception that confims the rule that all things break).

extending on the fact that unbreakable is a special case with 0 breakage chance. (Logic)

The most logical thing to not break would be the the thing that reduces breakage. (Reducing breakage for itself to 0).

Thus NMT should be unbreakable.

 

QED

 

(we can extend this to include the harvest med, reduces tool breakage, but then assumption 1 wouldn't hold)

[Vanyel]

I find at least one logic mistake in your 'proof'.

Saying there must be an exception to confirm a rule is the mistake. Each exception wanes the rule.

Next. If there is a positive chance of breaking NMT cape it may reduce 4 times and it wouldn't make it 0.

Considering your proof I will prove now that each cat has 9 tails.

Thesis:

All cats have 9 tails.

Proof:

No cat has eight tails. Since one cat has one more tail than no cat, it must have nine tails.

QED

 

Above is as correct as your proof.

Edited November 22, 2007 by Kheres

[Stricken]

There are quite a few NMT's currently ingame, and everyone has one, and Learner did point out and was very correct when he said soon the price will be VASTLY low. Consdiering more and mroe people fight fluffies it's true... people even TS down and do fluffies when they ahve 100/100+ a/d. The moer we get the less people need... so soon the nmt wont' be sellable due to large amounts....