Advanced Broker-Bot

[ttlanhil]

Nicky, if you were in the bot owners private forum, you would know that this has already been discussed months ago (also see the numbers below).

Right, and some people were strongly against it (ent's for it, learner, labrat, myself, and others are against it, among others).

Of course, whoever does not want to be indexed can simply state so, and that bot would be removed from Rraisa listings. A total of 2 tradebots, both owned by the same person, have in fact been removed upon request.

So do you ignore requests from other people, or do you just not look at them? There's a lot of stuff in the private forum about this that's relevant, but I don't want to take too much without permission, so I'll limit it to:

Back to the general issue: I have received a number of requests to be included in the service by bot owners, a few explicit don't cares, and to date only one request to be removed from the listing (from LabRat).

you could consider vakana on that list, but since she's defensively coded, it doesn't matter (defensively as in trying to avoid problems. sending a PM to another bot is likely to result in a big problem, if neither are going to ignore messages from bots). I'm a bit concerned that other bots aren't designed that way, at least, they probably aren't if your bot can poll them.

Entropy stated quite clearly that by default it is acceptable that a bot asks another bot for its INV and WANTED, but of course bots are free to ignore requests as they wish. Rraisa has been running for 6 months now, it's not that the matter hasn't been thoroughly discussed and tested.

Ent says it's allowed. So? Another point in the private forum was that if you don't have the courtesy to even let the bot owners know you're gonna start PMing other bots, why should we trust you to provide correct lists?

This is the part that really bothers me... That someone would need to do this. Not because someone's setting up botspam, but because I don't see much reason why bots should ever respond to other bots at all (there are certainly exceptions, like a guild that has several bots might share info between them, however those are limited and uncommon).

This is in fact like saying that there is no reason why a web site should respond to Google's requests. Why there is so much talk about botspam, I can't quite understand: Rraisa just sends an INV or WANTED command every 1 and 1/2 hour, which should not be a burden to anyone. These PMs go directly to a single bot, not to a channel where they could constitute spam. Globally, it would hugely reduce the total number of tradebot-related PMs in the system. If you have n players and m tradebots, for every player to get a complete picture of the market would require O(n*m) messages (a message from each player to each bot). With a broker, you only need O(n+m) messages (n messages from player to broker, plus m messages from broker to bots).

First off, any correctly coded bot will ignore PMs from other bots (apart from the specific exceptions, which trade should not be part of). Therefor, not a single one of those PMs should ever get a response. They should all be silently ignored. Therefore any PM your bot sends to another bot is spam. Of course, I know not all bots are defensively coded, and they'll be quite happy to engage in a spamwar with any bot that makes contact, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable practice. Maybe one day they'll all be like that. But do we really want a game where it's the bots that do all the trading, and players don't even engage in marketting anymore, they just contact the nearest bot list bot?

Because, no, it's not a single bot. Vakana has a list of bots that bot-owners have to opt-in to get on, and it's not trade specific, it's designed to give contact names and the like. (I've had requests for an indexing service based on this, I've stated why I'm against the idea, but I think ensuring contact details are available is a Good Thing) And other bots have done trade indexing, or whatever else, we can hardly assume your bot will be the only one to start trade-spam. As for checking every bot... Where do you get the idea that every player will check every bot? That's silly. Players will #ignore some/many/all tradebots on @@3 and contact those they've dealt with in the past, have heard about from a friend, or is nearby. Price is an aspect, but I strongly believe it should not be made the primary point of competition, like in a trade-index bot.

There is no claim that results will be accurate, or whatever. Of course tradebots can cheat to Rraisa, and then maybe offer a worse price to a player. That's why I normally use Rraisa to get a list of bots carrying some item, and then INV them directly before going half a continent to do my shopping. Notice that I'm avoiding PMing dozens of bots that DON't carry what I want, saving time for myself and bandwidth on the server.

Even assuming that the list is correct, which it may not be with any bot that has access levels (such as public and guild-mate; which may allow not just different prices, but also different items), you're saying you want to go huge distances for the best price? And you don't see the problem there?

For anyone who doesn't, let me put it this way. Low-level players can make items to sell on the market. They need a profit per-item to cover the losses. The lower the level, the more profit on successes they need.

High level players generally can't get by only on high-level work, they have to compete on the low-level (bulk) items as well. They can afford to have a smaller profit margin, because the loss rate is low.

Now, I'm reasonably high in most skills, so you can't really accuse me of self-interest here (if anything, I'd be at an advantage), but I see this as being damaging to the economy and community (new players find that "blue lupins are the best cash" becomes truer and truer, and eventually get bored with just the one thing to do, and leave (Note: lupins is the correct English spelling, so don't think that's a typo ).

So far, I have had:

1 tradebot owner explicitly asked to be removed from the listing

3 tradebot owners explicitly asked to be added to the listing (I had missed them initially)

all the rest were happy to be included, and some of them opted to ban Rraisa for the time being, in particular:

6 bots are ignoring Rraisa (some of them are ignoring all bots, regardless of the purpose)

40 bots are replying to Rraisa requests

10 bots are off-line right now and I can't tell wheter they would accept or reject requests

in addition, several of the newer bots are not yet listed.

So it would be more correct to say between 3 and 7 are against, 3 are for the idea, and up to 54 have no idea you've even been doing this? And don't say that "all the rest were happy to be included" because that's either ignorance or a lie, neither of which is good (to be specific, Learner, LabRat, and myself all stated our disapproval in the private forums before anyone in that forum even know whose bot it was). Plus, of course, apart from those 3 who asked, you can't say that anyone is happy about being listed, not if you haven't talked to the bot owner/manager yourself.

ed: Oh, and it looks like you may have to add Nicky's bots (yes, plural, and well known) to the exclude list. Heck, since the bot owners may explicitly block Raisa's PMs, you should assume any non-responce is a no-vote, not a yes-vote (since it's either that they don't like Raisa in particular, or the idea of bots PMing bots in general).

And as a semi-side-note, since you didn't contact bot owners; theoretically you should get no responses at all, since those who want to participate should have to explicitly give an exception to ignoring all bots (well, gee, you mean if any of the owners of those up-to-6 bots that may actually be coded properly want to be on the list, they miss out? You're punishing people for being good programmers? Sarcasm aside, the courtesy of contacting bot owners first would have prevented this problem)

 

Yes, saying you're either lying or not reading what has been said is harsh and perhaps mean. But I hope it underscores just how serious my concerns are; not just for the economy, but also for misrepresentation of bot-owner opinions to support your goal.

 

LabRat's post shows why bots should (with exception) never respond to bots. I probably still have the logs for when vakana got spammed by ants (and then responded to them all, of course, which got a responce from them, etc) within an hour or two of first getting online (gee, learner, why didn't you do that to all the other bots, to encourage good programming? )

 

As for the private forum discussion... There are things that are good to be kept quiet. It makes sense to limit discussion of bot-spam to only those who have a reason to discuss it (really, any bot owner/manager should get in there), because it'll just get spammy otherwise. That's where the thread on Raisa started.

It could have been reasonable to move the discussion about a bot-index bot to public forums once the thread turned to the pros-and-cons of that idea, sure, but it didn't happen until now.

Unfortunately, Ent's support for the idea seems to mean that the concerns some of us share have not been fixed.

 

Peace?

Understanding? Edited July 28, 2007 by ttlanhil

[Usl]

Nicky, if you were in the bot owners private forum, you would know that this has already been discussed months ago (also see the numbers below).

Right, and some people were strongly against it (ent's for it, learner, labrat, myself, and others are against it, among others).

... and don't forget to list others that were in favour, in addition to Ent, e.g. Annatira, jamincollins/blackthorn (on condition that the bot was made public), sithicus (ditto), lord_jag, and others who PMed me their support instead of going to the forums...

It is probably worth repeating here what Entropy said about this issue:

The bot is approved for this purpose. No permission is necesary to inquire other bots about their price list, the permission is implicit. If you don't like it, you can block it.

What could be clearer than that? As for Vakana, what you said was

you could consider vakana on that list, but since she's defensively coded, it doesn't matter (defensively as in trying to avoid problems. sending a PM to another bot is likely to result in a big problem, if neither are going to ignore messages from bots).

it was not counted in the ignore list because Vakana never was in Rraisa lists to start with. Rraisa has never polled Vakana. That, and the vague terms you used above, is the reason why I haven't removed Vakana from any list -- it never was there.

 

As for the rest of the message, it is getting a little trite. Your opinion is that bots should never reply to other bots. You make that into an absolute truth, and derive all sorts of terrible consequences from it. My opinion is that there are useful scenarios where bots could cooperate nicely, and Rraisa is an example of that. Actually, Rraisa has been running for 6 months now with 10-30 users helping in the testing, and there has been not a single instance of trouble until this afternoon, when LabRat on purpose had Titanta send spurious messages.

And let me say one thing, which I abstained from discussing before: in any such case, it is the responsability of the bot that initiates a PM exchange to handle the consequences. Rraisa initiates queries to other bots (by sending INV and WANTED), and know how to handle their replies -- in fact, no botspam was ever created by Rraisa. On the contrary, in today's experiment it was Titanta who initiated the interaction (instructed to do so by LabRat at the console), and could not handle the consequences, treating Rraisa's response that she prompted as a separate command. I need not add more.

I have both LabRat and ttlanhil in sufficiently high esteem -- technically speaking -- that I reckon you can see the difference. So, who exactly are you trying to impress with all this smoke?

 

If the issue is really that you are afraid that a price war may ensure, then you should propose that bots be removed from ch 3 altogether (after all, they advertise their prices there, and people could even compare them -- God forbid!). All the issues about providing different prices to different people also apply to the market channel: I have never seen bots advertising multiple prices there. If the issue is that I didn't ask explicit permission at first, you and everybody else already had my apologies four or five times, publicly; what do you want more, especially considering that I was acting based on what Ent had said (see above)? (and, again, Rraisa never accessed Vakana at all, so you cannot even claim you were offended personally).

If you are so sure the service is useless, please let it fail and be forgotten. We have all stated our points of view clearly (we already had in the bot owner forum, as well -- this is just repeating it all for the benefit of the onlookers, isn't it?). If instead you take pleasure in the debating itself, I'm not going to follow you along this route.

 

And... I think I do understand your position. Nevertheless, I don't agree with you. Am I still free to have a different opinion?

[ttlanhil]

... and don't forget to list others that were in favour, in addition to Ent, e.g. Annatira, jamincollins/blackthorn (on condition that the bot was made public), sithicus (ditto), lord_jag, and others who PMed me their support instead of going to the forums...

I'm not forgetting them. I know there are people with opinions on each side of the issue.

I know what Ent said. And while I'm happy to say he's a good coder, and his work on EL usually works out okay, that doesn't make all his decisions correct. And assuming he was right, that doesn't address all the problems.

As for vakana, yes, apart from the spam (because it's ignored) it doesn't matter so much, because she'll ignore it. But you said "All the rest were happy to be included" which is false.

it was not counted in the ignore list because Vakana never was in Rraisa lists to start with. Rraisa has never polled Vakana. That, and the vague terms you used above, is the reason why I haven't removed Vakana from any list -- it never was there.

Actually, this brings up another point. You add some bots yourself, but the others have to be by request? That only exacerbates the issue of incomplete listings (and heck, if you didn't tell the bot owners about polling their bots, because you didn't think you had to, or didn't consider it polite, whatever the reason, why not assume other bot owners will assume their bot will be indexed?)

Your opinion is that bots should never reply to other bots. You make that into an absolute truth, and derive all sorts of terrible consequences from it. My opinion is that there are useful scenarios where bots could cooperate nicely, and Rraisa is an example of that.

Re-read what I said. I said there are exceptions, but apart from specific exceptions (which should be added as needed, rather than leave a problem there in case it's useful) bots should not respond to bots.

On this, we almost agree. That there are cases where bots talking to bots is good we agree on. That bots should, by default, not respond to other bots (until the bot owner/manager sees reason to set that up) we seem to disagree on.

We also disagree on whether a price indexing bot is a good idea (I'm all in favour of listing bots with purpose, contact details, and map. I don't see a problem with a list of trade bots in Whitestone, for example. But I don't like that another bot is providing price comparison, or that some bots have to opt-in while others have to opt-out (which is why vakana's bot list is completely opt-in))

I have both LabRat and ttlanhil in sufficiently high esteem -- technically speaking -- that I reckon you can see the difference. So, who exactly are you trying to impress with all this smoke?

I'm sure you could add Learner to that list But who? I want to make my reasons for opposition clear, in hopes that it will limit damage to EL's economy by stopping sooner.

If the issue is really that you are afraid that a price war may ensure, then you should propose that bots be removed from ch 3 altogether (after all, they advertise their prices there, and people could even compare them -- God forbid!). All the issues about providing different prices to different people also apply to the market channel: I have never seen bots advertising multiple prices there.

Vakana used to post prices in her ads, but I changed that long ago. Yes, I'd agree with removing prices from the bot ads on @@3, and limit it to "Here I am, this is what I trade in, contact me for more info" every hour or whatever (I know it's 15-min currently, but vakana and others advertise once an hour or longer, and mandating it to be an hour will help the botspam, at least for a while).

And of course bots don't list different prices on @@3 (except when their public price changes). The problem that I'm talking about is not the public price. Okay, maybe an example will help illustrate.

Vakana has 2 sets of prices. One is the public price, that's what most people get. She also has a discount per item that's given to guild-members, people I list as friends, and people who pay for premium access (better prices, more commands, gambling, etc. A few people have signed up for that).

Vakana currently has a price of 1gc on cinnabar to the public. She will sell to preferred customers for 0gc.

Or, she pays 6300 for binding stone from the public, or pays 6400 for a bind stone from a preferred customer.

This is an example of the different prices that bots may have. You may disagree with the practice, but I doubt it's uncommon.

Your bot, if I allowed it to contact vakana, would get the public prices. However there are about a hundred people (rough estimate, but I think it's within 10%) would could get a better price on most of her items.

I know other bots have prices for at least some items that are different for at least some people.

Anyone who gets better prices on any of the items they check for will get incorrect data about the bots they get better prices from, when checking the results from your bot.

If you are so sure the service is useless, please let it fail and be forgotten. We have all stated our points of view clearly (we already had in the bot owner forum, as well -- this is just repeating it all for the benefit of the onlookers, isn't it?).

If I thought it would be ignored, then I'd ignore it. But I suspect it could do harm to the economy.

A lot of what's said here is repeating what was said in semi-private, but it's also adding more opinions and information.

And... I think I do understand your position. Nevertheless, I don't agree with you. Am I still free to have a different opinion?

Certainly. I respect your right to disagree, even if I think you are wrong. But at the same time, I dislike people giving others incorrect information, such as saying that I support this (which I don't) by claiming that "All the rest were happy to be included". Edited July 28, 2007 by ttlanhil

[Learner]

It is probably worth repeating here what Entropy said about this issue:

The bot is approved for this purpose. No permission is necesary to inquire other bots about their price list, the permission is implicit. If you don't like it, you can block it.

What could be clearer than that? As for Vakana, what you said was

You still don't get it! It doesn't matter if Entropy told you that you could PM all the bots to get pricing! You chould explicitly get their permission. Entropy can grant you permission to allow your bot to pm bots, but bots being included should be an optin , not an opt out! hat is why since the beginning I've been telling you that as a courtesy you should be asking the owners permission!

 

master blacklist command has just been issued to my bot renters ... if you want to allow Rraisa to poll your bot, you must manually remove the blacklist

 

23 bots just added your bot to their Blacklist

[robotbob]

Usl please remove my bot mattamus from your list. I will block you internally as well.

 

 

One of my killbots was spammed by kos_info, and would not stop until I logged off the killbot.

Bots shouldn't pm other bots, they are a service for players.

Edited July 29, 2007 by robotbob

[Usl]

... and don't forget to list others that were in favour, in addition to Ent, e.g. Annatira, jamincollins/blackthorn (on condition that the bot was made public), sithicus (ditto), lord_jag, and others who PMed me their support instead of going to the forums...

I'm not forgetting them. I know there are people with opinions on each side of the issue.

I know what Ent said. And while I'm happy to say he's a good coder, and his work on EL usually works out okay, that doesn't make all his decisions correct. And assuming he was right, that doesn't address all the problems.

Same here, I am not assuming that since Ent said that, then Rraisa is necessarily a good idea. Rather, I was asking for your understanding on why I didn't think of asking every bot owner first: I had been in EL for a month, and I assumed that, since Ent was saying that, the issue was kind of established. Whether offering a listing service or not is a good idea is a separate subject (of course, I think it is a good idea, but on specific ground).

 

But you said "All the rest were happy to be included" which is false.

You are right, I should not have told that they were "happy". This was improper language on my part, what I meant was "they were ok with it", based on the reactions I got to my post:

So, owners of tradebots, it is up to you:

• if you ask to be removed, I will do so immediately and with no offense taken at all;
  
• if you don't request removal but decide to ban Rraisa, then this is ok as well -- should you ever decide to remove the ban, you will be included automatically;
  
• if you are not currently listed and want to be added, just let me know;
  
• if you don't care, you will be listed as long as you don't ban Rraisa, and you will be able to change your decision at any time in the future.
  

Is this fine for everyone? Just PM me in-game or leave a PM in the forum if you want extra info or to let me know of your requests.

So, I was referring to the "don't cares". It should be noted at this point that Vakana's service listing contact points for bots was established well after the discussion above; at the time there was no central list to identify bot owners (and still there is none, as Vakana's list is opt-in and I think Ent is not providing public details on who registers or manages bots).

Actually, this brings up another point. You add some bots yourself, but the others have to be by request? That only exacerbates the issue of incomplete listings (and heck, if you didn't tell the bot owners about polling their bots, because you didn't think you had to, or didn't consider it polite, whatever the reason, why not assume other bot owners will assume their bot will be indexed?)

Because I did the mistake once, when first setting up Rraisa, and tried to remedy by offering my apologies, setting up what seemed acceptable conditions for everybody (per my message quoted above), and avoided adding more bots after that. In short, I behaved according to the message above. Actually, I intended to have a round of polling of the remaining bot owners after the service went public, so that they could form a more precise idea of what the whole issue boiled down to.

On this, we almost agree. That there are cases where bots talking to bots is good we agree on. That bots should, by default, not respond to other bots (until the bot owner/manager sees reason to set that up) we seem to disagree on.

You talked very appropriately of defensive coding. Ignoring all other bots is a sufficient condition to ensure deadlock avoidance, but not a necessary one. In fact, it prevents several useful services to be established. For example, when you proposed to establish a list of bots and bots owners, I suggested that this could be implemented by standardizing on a command (e.g., "owner") which would report the name of the owner. In this way, the indexing bot could stay up to date with changes in ownership or management without manual intervention. This solution would have been technically superior to the current one (imho), but would have requested that bots do not ignore indiscriminately all other bots. All that is needed for bot-to-bot interaction to work successfully, is that the bot initiating a transaction handles gracefully any reply it could receive. I believe Rraisa is doing this.

We also disagree on whether a price indexing bot is a good idea (I'm all in favour of listing bots with purpose, contact details, and map. I don't see a problem with a list of trade bots in Whitestone, for example. But I don't like that another bot is providing price comparison, or that some bots have to opt-in while others have to opt-out (which is why vakana's bot list is completely opt-in))

The issue of which bots are listed right now and which are not is a mess, as explained above, and due to historical reasons. Hopefully, after running a round of polling of bot owners, the criteria for listing will be uniform. Of course, it would be nice if Rraisa could ask Vakana about the location of bots, and add that information to its search results (or maybe, even limit searches by map) -- which is in itself another nice example of what interesting services can be formed through bot interaction.

 

I have both LabRat and ttlanhil in sufficiently high esteem -- technically speaking -- that I reckon you can see the difference. So, who exactly are you trying to impress with all this smoke?

I'm sure you could add Learner to that list But who? I want to make my reasons for opposition clear, in hopes that it will limit damage to EL's economy by stopping sooner.

Sure I could add Learner

Regarding the damage, we have a genuine disagreement. I am not sure at all that having Rraisa will cause prices to drop. There are so many other factors coming into play (e.g. location, convenience, popularity, range of offerings, quantity of items sold, ...) that it is hard to say that with certainty. But even if they do, I am sure you have considered that it is the vast majority of players, especially "poor" ones and newbies, which will benefit from the reduced prices? Maybe a poor crafter will sell his rings for a few gc less than before, and at the same time will be able to buy needed ingredients or potions for less, thus saving overall?

Or maybe he will discover that the price he intended to sell is wares was actually too low, compared to others, and adjust it to the actual market value?

You know, this is about free market vs. regulated vs. planned economy vs. monopolies... there have been Nobel prizes in Economics on all sides of the issue, and I don't think the two of us can easily reach a consensus here. But as I said in another post, if it turns out that the service is useless, or damaging, I have nothing against shutting it off. I am making it public now as originally requested by Ent, and by several other tradebot owners -- less vocal, maybe, than others, but deserving respect nevertheless.

 

Vakana used to post prices in her ads, but I changed that long ago. Yes, I'd agree with removing prices from the bot ads on @@3, and limit it to "Here I am, this is what I trade in, contact me for more info" every hour or whatever (I know it's 15-min currently, but vakana and others advertise once an hour or longer, and mandating it to be an hour will help the botspam, at least for a while).

I'm happy to see that I interpreted your position correctly. Now, a tirade against all those bot owners who insist on putting prices on ch. 3 would relieve me of some pressure

 

I understand your point about different pricing to different people (I had missed it in February, I barely knew what a guild was at the time), but I don't think this is a reason to deprive the remaining 95% of a useful service. Your 5% "preferred customers" know they are preferred, so they know that they should not rely on Rraisa as far as Vakana is concerned (this is hypothetical of course, as Vakana is not listed right now). It would be perfectly ok if Rraisa got the "public" price from bot, or even no price at all; availability information is more precious in my experience than price. I originally developed Rraisa out of frustration in my noob days, because I was sick and tired of having to manually poll two dozens of bots every time I needed something to find out which one had it. Of course, as a noob I didn't have any "fidelity record" with certain bots, they were all equally unknown to me. Nowadays I rarely go to bots, and when I do I am an almost exclusive buyer -- I cant' remember selling stuff, I produce only for my own and my guild's consumption. On the other hand, consider that Rraisa also indexes the market channel, not just bots; it helps in searching stuff in the market as well.

 

In summary we have a clear benefit (making it easier for players to find what they want on bots or market) vs. a suspected harm (I'm not saying you are certainly wrong, but not certainly right either). The one officially in charge of the welfare of EL as a whole, Entropy, apparently is ok with at least trying it. Let us rediscuss the issue in a couple of months with some experience in place of conjectures. In the meantime, I will re-check with those bot owners I can contact whether they are ok or not with being included in the service.

 

As a final note, let me say I believe we can discuss such issues without getting too emotional; I for my part apologize if I have been harsh (but your posts have not been that soft either ).

[Usl]

Usl please remove my bot mattamus from your list. I will block you internally as well.

 

 

One of my killbots was spammed by kos_info, and would not stop until I logged off the killbot.

Bots shouldn't pm other bots, they are a service for players.

Done so. But you wouldn't risk botspam from Rraisa, exactly as you had none in the last six months. Should you ever change your mind, just let me know.

[robotbob]

Done so. But you wouldn't risk botspam from Rraisa, exactly as you had none in the last six months. Should you ever change your mind, just let me know.

 

First time I found rraisa in my logs I asked around, pmd the bot trying to figure out what was occurring.

I was told it was something "in testing".

 

I was never asked, (like a neighbor...oh I have been stealing your water, and now you notice?

Therefore its ok ?) Every bullshit pm from your bot, that isn't actual player interested in my items, is stealing

bandwidth, I pay for.

 

Try asking before you set up a regular bandwidth spider, then claim innocence since I didn't catch the thief

earlier.

 

A central pricing authority isn't capitalism, its socialism. Feel free to call it an index, but the consumer

will just see this as the "authority" on value.

Edited July 29, 2007 by robotbob

[Kedrigern]

Everything that helps comparing prices will help free competition, it is capitalism.

 

Ofcourse capitalism and free competition are good for customers (players) and not necessarily bot ovners so I understand that not everybody likes it.

 

Personaly I like Rraisa, maby she force me in future to lover sell prices and incerase buy prices but in other side she will be great advertise.

In my opinion, profits form more new customers compensate me less profit from one customers.

 

I read whole discusion and didnt find any arguments that have sense for me (unfortunly i havn't yet acces to bot ovners private forum).

 

bandwidth ? Rraisa will save my bandwidth, because people searching something will not ask my bot with inv/wanted for things that they know thad didnt find there.

And be serious how much you pay for sending 500 Bytes long list once every 2 hours ?

Special prices for special people ? As already Usl said, those special people must know that they have special prices - current market channel advertises contains normal prices for normal people so what a problem with another advertise ?

[robotbob]

Everything that helps comparing prices will help free competition, it is capitalism.

 

My problem is with one bot author suddenly making himself the market, rraisa is NYSE, NASDAQ, SP500.

 

because people searching something will not ask my bot with inv/wanted for things that they know thad didnt find there.

 

Hence they stop using my bot, if I lose usul's favor then I am blacklisted perhaps? again how is this free market?

 

so what a problem with another advertise ?

 

Whats wrong with us all advertising as individuals and not going through the central state advertising outlet. Komrade?

 

 

ps I love this

And be serious how much you pay for sending 500 Bytes long list once every 2 hours ?

I only stole a little, so comeon. Great logic.

Edited July 29, 2007 by robotbob

[frogimus]

Everything that helps comparing prices will help free competition, it is capitalism.

 

Ofcourse capitalism and free competition are good for customers (players) and not necessarily bot ovners so I understand that not everybody likes it.

 

 

Actually, my entire reason for having a bot was 1) To buy the things I need, and 2) to sell the things I make. That being said, how much better is the competition for the average player when I could have a tradebot buying/selling 24/7 for equivalent or better prices than the average player who is only doing it a few hours a day/week/month?

 

In RL, free markets are the optimal means for exchange of goods and services because all players are trying to profit from it. In the IG market not all players are intent on making a profit. Some grind to get xp and sell their goods for a fraction of cost. Bot owners are at an advantage in this because they are (as evidenced by their investment in the bot fees) "richer" than the average player.

 

This is a giant step into having a bot-controlled market. Once this happens, the casual players (that do not want to invest real $$ into the game) will find it very difficult to make any gc at all except at the Portland bl bush.

[coch]

@robotbob:

I dunno how your connection's fares work (do they account time? or even bytes sent? o_O), but where's stealing if you give a public service and somebody simply uses it? Nobody is using your bandwidth for they purposes but to communicate with you, that's what you're for on EL and why you've got one or more bots, and what YOU have decided to pay for: letting others use your bot. There is no one stealing anything. If some users are unwanted do anything you want to block access to them.

 

There is no authority too, setting prices. NO authority SETTING prices. (If the messages from rraisa you define bullshit i don't know how your statements can be defined oO.) And what does the heck mean an 'authority' on values for players? They are just made able to compare stocks (and possibly pricing) in an easier way than they can already do. No one is imposing anything. THIS is free market. Not you telling others how they should behave, nor they telling it to you.

 

If users stop using your bot it'll be just because you're not offering an interesting service. Whining for that and forcing things (forcing what other player can do) so that it won't happen ISN'T FREE market.

 

The only one that wants to tell others how they should act is you. Maybe when there are explosive weapons in EL you'll be more effective in exporting your democracy. In the meanwhile hold on.

[robotbob]

@robotbob:

I dunno how your connection's fares work (do they account time? or even bytes sent? o_O)

Back to learners comments, no one asked.

 

There is no authority too, setting prices. NO authority SETTING prices. (If the messages from rraisa you define bullshit i don't know how your statements can be defined oO.) And what does the heck mean an 'authority' on values for players?

 

Trinitybot even caused this, "No the items value is blah, because the trinitybot says so."

RRaisa becomes the authority once it becomes THE source for pricing information.

 

Do you have any real life market experience? Or is everyone pulling their game experience out

of their ass as valid proof? (I've been buying stocks since I was 13)

 

The only one that wants to tell others how they should act is you. Maybe when there are explosive weapons in EL you'll be more effective in exporting your democracy. In the meanwhile hold on.

 

Nice political attack. Oh btw how the fuck did democracy and my political affliction become relevant to this?

 

And the best part is, If I don't smile and agree I am forcing my will on others?

 

Since RRasia use was imposed instead of an offered service again, your point is?

If you think capitalism and democracy are the same thing, ...

 

 

Oh, ok If it will make you happy, I'll join the happy get together mob. Rraisa start sending me packets.

I'll fully agree to anything that comes along like a good little sheep, baaa.

 

Since I wouldn't want to somehow force my opinion on anyone. I'll just smile and nod from now on.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a giant step into having a bot-controlled market. Once this happens, the casual players (that do not want to invest real $$ into the game) will find it very difficult to make any gc at all except at the Portland bl bush.

 

 

Exactly

[Kedrigern]

Hence they stop using my bot, if I lose usul's favor then I am blacklisted perhaps? again how is this free market?

if he start blockong/blacklisting people informations from rraisa become useless and other person can create beter bot that don't blacklist anyone, people will choose beter - complete information source.

Its like google indexing web and helping people find what they want, if it not give informations that they want, they will choose another search engine. Free market and ability to free choice is a best guarantee that he don't manimpulate results.

Whats wrong with us all advertising as individuals and not going through the central state advertising outlet.

nobody forbid you to advertising as individual, we are talking about new thing completly independent from this.

ps I love this

And be serious how much you pay for sending 500 Bytes long list once every 2 hours ?

I only stole a little, so comeon. Great logic.

You cut one sentence from greter context so there is no logic. I wrote that you save more (becouse less nonsense questions and get more clients interested concrete thing offered by bot) then pay for this few bytes.

If you don't thing so, you can always ignore rraisa and don't lose any byte, nobody stole you anything.

Edited July 30, 2007 by Kedrigern

[sithicus]

How would freedom of information possibly hurt the market, or anyone? If you believe that making your prices public would hurt your business then that means you are probably a con man anyway.

Edited July 30, 2007 by sithicus

[LabRat]

How would freedom of information possibly hurt the market, or anyone? If you believe that making your prices public would hurt your business then that means you are probably a con man anyway.

I use Agneum to sell silver ore way below market price, and I have not caused the price of silver ore to drop even 0.1 gc since the bot was introduced.

 

Why? Because my bot does not do anything that did not happen anyway (people selling silver ore direct to mulers for 1 gc has been going on as long as I have played the game). My bot just facilitates that and acts as a middleman, putting seller in contact with buyer even though they may be in opposite timezones and with no risk of scamming involved ("just let me get on the bag and I will only take what I need").

 

If Agneum had begun to affect the market price, I would have altered her price immediately. Conversely, if the market price changed and Agneum was not responsible, I would change her prices to match the market.

 

All that will happen (and indeed occasionally happens now) is that the bots that buy for the best prices will keep running out of gc quicker. The present system ensures that product distribution is fairly even over all of the bots and that a bot running out of gc is a rare event

 

Did I really just hear you call all the bot owners that don't want this system conmen? Welcome (you and your entire guild) to my bot banlists, after all I wouldn't want to con you or your friends now would I?

[ttlanhil]

Everything that helps comparing prices will help free competition, it is capitalism.

Please don't use terms you don't understand. The basis of capitalism is exploiting everyone else for your personal benefit. The community in EL suffers enough attacks as it is without the hype on price.

Ofcourse capitalism and free competition are good for customers (players) and not necessarily bot ovners so I understand that not everybody likes it.

Don't be silly. Capitalism benefits the haves and penalises the have-nots. Bot owners will often be the haves, and their customers from the full range.

In a hyper-capitalist society, the few haves control nearly all the wealth, and the have-nots have trouble, not only competing, but even having enough money to be customers... You don't have to do much study to realise that if the few wealthy people exploit everyone else they will slowly destroy the market for many items (basics like food will always be needed, of course, although IRL people can and will grow their own... without employees getting good wages, they can't afford to buy the non-necesities companies are putting out... Now, who's going to point out that this won't happen to this extreme in EL? Heck, I will. Because comparing RL and EL without a strong enough understanding of what you're talking about is stupid. But there's enough similarity to see that, like IRL, an overly capitalist market is not good in the long term (IMO, hyper-socialism is a bit nicer, although the lack of goal from striving to be the best means most people will slack off and society and the economy stagnates through lack of innovation and work, rather than lack of money and exploitation... But lets not get too political))

Special prices for special people ? As already Usl said, those special people must know that they have special prices - current market channel advertises contains normal prices for normal people so what a problem with another advertise ?

The difference is that people will rely on the prices from a central register, and that information will be wrong, not just on prices, but also quantities/availability. And if a bunch of bots have a hundred or more people who get better prices (and with some of the larger guilds in-game, you should believe that it's feasible), many people will get better prices from some bots.

What if there's a list with locations that people can check? They then check those bots. If they don't already have their own list of bots they normally deal with (and many people do). What if the central registry gives false information, the person running it doesn't consider courtesy or make concessions that cause half the bot-running market to block them; and then spins their posts to make it sound like less people had a problem? Real issues of distrust, frustration, and dislike.

In RL, free markets are the optimal means for exchange of goods and services because all players are trying to profit from it. In the IG market not all players are intent on making a profit. Some grind to get xp and sell their goods for a fraction of cost. Bot owners are at an advantage in this because they are (as evidenced by their investment in the bot fees) "richer" than the average player.

 

This is a giant step into having a bot-controlled market. Once this happens, the casual players (that do not want to invest real $$ into the game) will find it very difficult to make any gc at all except at the Portland bl bush.

It doesn't necessarily take a lot of RL money, you can also invest a lot of time, and working smarter can help... But that takes a lot of investment in research, planning, etc... That's not what a game should really be about, IMO. Other than that, I agree except that you missed that people will make stuff in the hopes of getting rare items (like the great swords) and then dump, below-cost, the normal version to recover most of the costs.

but where's stealing if you give a public service and somebody simply uses it? Nobody is using your bandwidth for they purposes but to communicate with you, that's what you're for on EL and why you've got one or more bots, and what YOU have decided to pay for: letting others use your bot. There is no one stealing anything. If some users are unwanted do anything you want to block access to them.

Vakana offers a lot of services to the players of EL (possibly too many, since some people find the list of commands a bit overwhelming at times, but oh well). Notice, services to players. Not bots.

The only one that wants to tell others how they should act is you. Maybe when there are explosive weapons in EL you'll be more effective in exporting your democracy. In the meanwhile hold on.

Control of the powerful, gee, that goes so well with exploitation of the masses... Nothing like bringing up visions of explosions and violence to put across your point, eh?

Do you have any real life market experience? Or is everyone pulling their game experience out

of their ass as valid proof? (I've been buying stocks since I was 13)

Well, it's not at me, but I'm at university, I've studied economics, marketting, and a heck of a lot of other stuff... I've been given awards for acheivement, they've been chasing me to do further study, etc... I have some idea what I'm talking about.

if he start blockong/blacklisting people informations from rraisa become useless and other person can create beter bot that don't blacklist anyone, people will choose beter - complete information source.

It's time you learn something. The best service or product is not what succeeds. The public, as a group, are stupid (people individually are often, though not always, clever. Groups are often stupid. Many things people would never do alone, they'll do in a group. Peer pressure, wanting to show off, trying to demonstrate social dominance, laziness because the issue doesn't affect just them, so obviously someone else will think for them, etc)

How would freedom of information possibly hurt the market, or anyone? If you believe that making your prices public would hurt your business then that means you are probably a con man anyway.

Well, if it were even true information... Did you not read the market/economic analysis about what happens when you increase the importance of price as a competition point? Prices dropping from bots does not help the (low level) players who try to compete. Bot owners like myself who have the levels to make nearly everything in-game with a decent to high success rate can afford to sell things like HE for a lot less than a low level player who fails regularly. Unlike IRL, there's no labels (and hence social status) or quality issues, so we don't really have a reason to sell for more just because we can (and hence allow the lower level players to compete... Which, BTW, is a socialist action, allowing competition and a wider marketplace, the capitalist approach would be to kill any competition any way possible, including selling below cost in order to drive out the smaller competition... Big business does that IRL too).

 

As for banning guilds because of the actions of one player, I don't agree with that... On the other hand, I did see Usl scanning vakana's list of bots, and I considered a ban there... But then, unlike IRL, it's harder to spot people who hide behind false names to get around any block I put in place, and he'd be able to misuse the list of bots eventually anyway (on the other hand, they're also all in the relevant forum post, it's not that private). And yes, misuse, since it's provided mainly so people can find contacts if there's a problem with a bot (which is an issue, as AFAIK not even the mods know the contact details for all bots).

[jamincollins]

As for banning guilds because of the actions of one player, I don't agree with that... On the other hand, I did see Usl scanning vakana's list of bots, and I considered a ban there... But then, unlike IRL, it's harder to spot people who hide behind false names to get around any block I put in place, and he'd be able to misuse the list of bots eventually anyway (on the other hand, they're also all in the relevant forum post, it's not that private). And yes, misuse, since it's provided mainly so people can find contacts if there's a problem with a bot (which is an issue, as AFAIK not even the mods know the contact details for all bots).

While you might still consider this misuse, I believe Usl was accessing the list so that he could go actually ask each bot owner for permission to have Rraisa access them. In many cases this is an after the fact request, but I do believe that Usl is honestly trying to provide what he sees as a benefit to the community.

 

He admits that there are shortcomings with the service, these have been reiterated several times already. However, the number of bots continues to grow and has (IMO) already outgrown the existing interfaces. If we don't like Usl plan, we need to come up with a better one, stop bickering, and implement it.

[ttlanhil]

While you might still consider this misuse, I believe Usl was accessing the list so that he could go actually ask each bot owner for permission to have Rraisa access them.

Perhaps. But consider where that list came from... I posted on the forums for discussion and opt-in. It's fair and people know what's happening (had Usl done that from the start, the grumblings that some of us have might not have even made it to the forums. I think a dislike for his way of doing things is a part of the problem).

In many cases this is an after the fact request, but I do believe that Usl is honestly trying to provide what he sees as a benefit to the community.

Also himself and his guild (and his isn't the only bot I've seen trying tog et prices from vakana, some of them even less willing to admit to what they're doing, so there's one point for him), but yes. Although I believe what he's doing is a bad idea, and I think he should have discussed it openly, I don't and didn't think anything was done with malice or ill-intent.

However, the number of bots continues to grow and has (IMO) already outgrown the existing interfaces. If we don't like Usl plan, we need to come up with a better one, stop bickering, and implement it.

One could also suggest that the channels in EL are getting overcrowded, and would do so without any bots on them at all. EL's chat system worked well at the start, but I don't think it's scalable enough. At some stage, we may have to split some things up; have channels that are officially listed as, for example, Seridian or Irilion market (and keep one Draian one for the really big trades for when people are willing to travel a long way). This has, to some extent, happened already unofficially, although many players simply don't know about it.

Yes, we do need other approaches... But some have been developing already. EternalBroker is an example where people can get involved in trades without botspam (if more people did that, checked what was available or wanted, and gave realistic prices, it might help).

I suggested adding a location list to vakana's bot list (so she'd be able to tell you which bots traded in PL and wished to be listed, and you then checked prices, exact location, any other relevant details then), but I only had one person (IIRC) contact me wanting to add a location entry.

 

We do need to work on this problem. But increasing price-competition at the same time is, to me, not a good thing. Developing it in private without anyone but Ent knowing about it, and bot owners seeing what looks very suspicious (even Ent said it was to be public, but we see bots talking to our bots in PM without knowing what's going on... I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be suspicious), and slows down development (heck, if the bot owners, as a group, went for an idea of bot-listing, it could be done so much faster and easier...).

[Kedrigern]

Please don't use terms you don't understand.

Maby You don't undarstand what I wrote,

But there's enough similarity to see that, like IRL, an overly capitalist market is not good in the long term (IMO, hyper-socialism is a bit nicer, although the lack of goal from striving to be the best means most people will slack off and society and the economy stagnates through lack of innovation and work, rather than lack of money and exploitation...

I live over 10 yeras in socilistic country, there was no maket, you earn money but you can buy anything for them - no food, no home to live, no phones, no computers, no cars, no fuel for them. If you want to eat something beter than potatos you must stel it or illegaly echange it for something (your money are worthless) with farmer then smuggle if from country to city, Want your own phone ? no way without gigantic bribe (ofcourse in convertible currency that you can't earn legally), no posibility to buy flat...

You can't undarstand what is true socialism until you see it on you own eyes. Even worst capitalism is better then this. But enough politics.

 

In EL rules are simple, now we are trying to decide if freedom of information are good for market or not.

The difference is that people will rely on the prices from a central register, and that information will be wrong, not just on prices, but also quantities/availability.

What central register ? Rraisa is a first that bot, but we doscouse posibility and sense of creating such bots not only this one, if she dosen't work good, somebody else can create better bot.

I test rraisa for few days and see that she give full unfiltered informations containing quantities not only prices, and she didnt decide witch offer are best only collects informations and give ability to search item names in them (almost certainly she didnt know witch part of collected string are price so can't compare them), This bot is only simple tool collecting offers, BEFORE YOU GO SOMEWHERE YOU MUST CHECK OFFER MANUALY if its sitll current, like in market few minutes after advertise you must ask if offer is still current. So final information alwayes comes from tradebot directly. If you have special price in this tradebot, it will tell you this.

[coch]

but where's stealing if you give a public service and somebody simply uses it? Nobody is using your bandwidth for they purposes but to communicate with you, that's what you're for on EL and why you've got one or more bots, and what YOU have decided to pay for: letting others use your bot. There is no one stealing anything. If some users are unwanted do anything you want to block access to them.

Vakana offers a lot of services to the players of EL (possibly too many, since some people find the list of commands a bit overwhelming at times, but oh well). Notice, services to players. Not bots.

What I meant is that in our case rraisa would only proxy the information from bots to players, acting in their place in fact. I wanted to oppose this view to that of 'resource wasting' being decried earlier. For instance the example of stealing water from your neighbor isn't pertinent at all I think, because the 'thief' doesn't make any use of it. The ones that would benefit are normal players, but bot owners, as good capitalists, don't want this to happen, they want to keep their control on the market (maybe i got this right at least? speaking about economy).

 

The only one that wants to tell others how they should act is you. Maybe when there are explosive weapons in EL you'll be more effective in exporting your democracy. In the meanwhile hold on.

Control of the powerful, gee, that goes so well with exploitation of the masses... Nothing like bringing up visions of explosions and violence to put across your point, eh?

My points where explained in the former 90% of the post. This was just a flamish conclusion so it was supposed to receive an equally facetious answer (if any).

Edited July 30, 2007 by coch

[sithicus]

 

Did I really just hear you call all the bot owners that don't want this system conmen? Welcome (you and your entire guild) to my bot banlists, after all I wouldn't want to con you or your friends now would I?

 

Honesty and openness apperently offend you, I see, both in discussion as well as in transparency on the market. You then take my post and twist it into an insult for all bot owners, that is a ludicrous thing to do. I believe in maximum openness of pricing, quick searches and ultimate freedom of choice. I fail to see how any of these would hurt the market. At best they hurt the interest of some merchants who have a larger profit margin than others. If prices change due to openness, or to the acts of an individual, then the prices were wrong to begin with.

 

I also refuse to discuss it any further with you. There is no point because we will not reach agreement anyway. I find your discussion technique here and in other places to be annoying.

 

and l4l @ threats

[LabRat]

 

Did I really just hear you call all the bot owners that don't want this system conmen? Welcome (you and your entire guild) to my bot banlists, after all I wouldn't want to con you or your friends now would I?

 

Honesty and openness apperently offend you, I see, both in discussion as well as in transparency on the market. You then take my post and twist it into an insult for all bot owners, that is a ludicrous thing to do. I believe in maximum openness of pricing, quick searches and ultimate freedom of choice. I fail to see how any of these would hurt the market. At best they hurt the interest of some merchants who have a larger profit margin than others. If prices change due to openness, or to the acts of an individual, then the prices were wrong to begin with.

 

I also refuse to discuss it any further with you. There is no point because we will not reach agreement anyway. I find your discussion technique here and in other places to be annoying.

 

and l4l @ threats

It wasn't a threat. You're all banned from them, I delayed posting that reply until I had banned every member available via gossip members all situ, and then banned the tag situ too.

 

Twisting words? You are the one that said

How would freedom of information possibly hurt the market, or anyone? If you believe that making your prices public would hurt your business then that means you are probably a con man anyway.

Your statement reads perfectly clearly with no twisting of words or meaning that you are accusing those of us that say no to this supposedly opt-in scheme that we are con men. I'd like to point out that anyone (well, anyone apart from you and your guild that is) can see my bot prices simply by sending them an INV command.

 

Glad you won't reply to this.

[Lexi]

Am I misunderstanding the intention of this bot? I thought all it was going to be for is so players can pm it with something they are looking throughout the bots in el; "/botname search Fire Essence". after that command, the bot will list all the bots that deal with FEs, but not the prices.

 

If the above is correct, we would STILL have to pm the list of bots that was given, this would help both players (reducing the bot "spam") and bot owners (faster sales maybe(?), free advertising, and possibly MORE people buying/selling with the bots)? Would it not?

 

Some people don't use bots just because there is so many out there to pm for a list or items. I personally made a list of bots that work the best for me, after a while, I check out all the trade bots again to see if they would suit me (prices, items selling, items buying, and ect), if they don't, well I don't add them to my list.

 

And please, I am not looking for a hard critque on my post, I am not trying to offend anyone at all. I would just like to know if I am misunderstanding the reason for this bot. I have been silent for days, and I just can't hold it in any longer.

[agrilles]

i am the guildmaster of situ guild, i find this outrageous!!

to see on post turn in to posting fighting. Where opinions being twisting and over reacting from labrab!

by read these just this two members posts. i see that sithicus made opinion on the thread and labrab over reacting and it show to he banned the hold guild to one opinion he read.

 

i opinion, on this matter is , when you make post, be ready for other members make opinions on this posted , if you not ready for the opinions do not make post or it well just get out of hand!

 

what labrab did was wrong! taking it out on hole guild is over reacting in my's opinion. With the actions that labrab did was outrageous! i have no choice to bring this up with situ senators for vote on this matter!!

labrab you could handle this better then this!! as experianced player

 

futhermore, i dont just banned player or guilds on situ guild bot just from one opinions , it has to be really good reasons behind the banning!