What is your opinion about multiplaying?

[fyrrflyy]

One way to stop trading is to simply have the server check IP for each trade. When people who are on the same IP attempt a trade it could be blocked by the server. Saves time checking it out. Could be expanded to bag trading and such, but the hardcore people are probably going to cheat anyway no matter what kind of set up you have.

That also stops couples and family from trading, I dont think they should be punished for something they havent done.

[Ermabwed]

@mrmind & fyrrflyy:

That would also be against the whole multiplay idea, which is to gain advantage from alts.

 

@mufossa on "how to remove a perk":

positive perk: just return the pps (as was done with artificer perk).

negative perk: just remove the pps and the perk (this would require pps to be allowed negative values). You then can't spend pps until you worked yourself into positive pps again or reset. I could post an alternate but more complicated method that would work without negative pps.

 

Now to you Tirun, frankly, I am a bit disappointed that you ridicule yourself further and that you apparently didn't read my post or just chose to ignore the points I made.

I think that all you have to do is tell everyone that if they park alts by NPCs they will get banned. Being able to multiplay at all is enough benefit to compensate for any punishments that are handed out. Trying to say that you can run multiple alts and dodge the antisocial perk with them without being caught is ridiculous. You are saying that people could do the things required to avoid the Antisocial perk entirely innocently. Anyone with that many alts who parks them near NPCs is automatically guilty.

No, what truly is ridiculous is trying to tell players where they can or can't log off, because log off location is not always a choice and npc locations are sometimes the best choice (e.g. log off in evtr tavern to avoid invasions when logging in) and the very idea is laughable. It's remarkable that your first and last sentence imply a certain number of alts needed ("that many") whereas I already showed it would be only 5 which would be made legal or illegal purely and entirely by intent, and, let me add this, your argument implies tracking the number of alts (and hours spent playing them, experience gained on them, or else how will you determine which is an alt?) and would again target families and legitimate "same IP players". A simple "n characters from that IP, k of which logged off close to an NPC" will not work. Also, since only NPC parking would be disallowed, a simple check for alt helping main at NPC won't work.

 

Since this is at least the second time you tried it with me: Not being able to come up with an argument made by somebody else and try to cover that up by saying the argument is ridiculous (when it is not or not providing a reason) is pathetic and I kindly ask you to stop that (with me at the least).

 

I have antisocial. How on earth do I function with that perk? I have friends and guild mates to help me. The perk is not to completely keep people from functioning just makes it harder. I can keep doing that even if multiplay is legal. Yes a single person could do the same thing with an army of alts but that is why they would be considered automatically guilty for parking by NPCs. You can use your alts have antisocial and still have friends help you get around the perk as always without getting in trouble. Why not do that?

"Automatically guilty" will not work (families and easily to get around as pointed out multiple times, discriminable only by intent are the reasons that to come to mind immediately), and forget the army of alts, you can hardly call 5 alts an army.

Also this leaves again the rules out of the discussion but as I pointed out above, that would be extremely complicated and not feasible, because if you only have "can't park at NPC" that is so easily gotten around that I shouldn't even mention it, so we're back at the situation of alt trades (see my previous post).

And on "why not do that?": because they aren't always available and rules are there to mark the boundaries of what's allowed and what's not allowed not to provide suggestions on alternately dealing with game situations.

It would be easier to keep doing that then it would be to get caught doing something wrong so in IMO antisocial has nothing to do with multiplay. Mulitplay is enough of an advantage that anyone who even looks like they are abusing the rules would be guilty and banned. There is no reason to do all of the jumping through hoops you are talking about. You cannot coincidentally wind up with antisocial and an army of alts parked by NPCs. That gets you banned no matter what unless you ask to be unbanned because all of your characters get equal playing time and that would be obvious by skills and OA.

Banning people just because they look like they are abusing the rules, that just leaves your doors wide, wide open, just imagine the spamfest in bans forums, "guilty until proven innocent", great. Plus this would obviously add significantly to moderator workload and frustration.

There might be no reason for jumping through the hoops but if it's not forbidden, then it's allowed thus leading the rule to absurdity, so you'll have to disallow it and we're back at my previous post. Also the jumping through hoops wasn't limited to antisocial-get-around, the point was the impossibility of seriously trying to limit alt trades in general.

Army of alts and NPC parking, see above.

 

I said ask Entropy about the scamming thing since it is his idea and I stick to that. There is no reason to consider that in this discussion.

There is, as I pointed out in my previous post. And the fact remains that the rule wouldn't make sense as you agreed, no matter what the reasoning behind it is, as long as scamming is legal and again, it would significantly increase moderator workload.

 

So, since you didn't say anything new and I am going on vacation today, you have 12 days to come up with some sound reasoning to refute the points I made above

And no, saying my points are ridiculous, claiming armies of alts, basing assumptions on fairy users etc. is generally not considered "sound reasoning".

 

PS: No offense Tirun

[TirunCollimdus]

 

@mufossa on "how to remove a perk":

positive perk: just return the pps (as was done with artificer perk).

negative perk: just remove the pps and the perk (this would require pps to be allowed negative values). You then can't spend pps until you worked yourself into positive pps again or reset. I could post an alternate but more complicated method that would work without negative pps.

Ermabwed

Now to you Tirun, frankly, I am a bit disappointed that you ridicule yourself further and that you apparently didn't read my post or just chose to ignore the points I made.

No, what truly is ridiculous is trying to tell players where they can or can't log off, because log off location is not always a choice and npc locations are sometimes the best choice (e.g. log off in evtr tavern to avoid invasions when logging in) and the very idea is laughable. It's remarkable that your first and last sentence imply a certain number of alts needed ("that many") whereas I already showed it would be only 5 which would be made legal or illegal purely and entirely by intent, and, let me add this, your argument implies tracking the number of alts (and hours spent playing them, experience gained on them, or else how will you determine which is an alt?) and would again target families and legitimate "same IP players". A simple "n characters from that IP, k of which logged off close to an NPC" will not work. Also, since only NPC parking would be disallowed, a simple check for alt helping main at NPC won't work.

 

Tirun

How many legitimate characters can you actually run at one time Erma? People have played for years and only gotten a couple of characters legitimately up to high OAs. If it was SO easy to run multiple characters and level them then why are characters bought and sold for hundreds of US dollars? My statement was that it would take patterns to make people guilty. Yes there are a couple of places near NPCs it is worthwhile to park at but not enough for your 5 alts. The mods already spend time identifying mules so that is not a problem. The ways to find cheaters won't change that much so it should not be a problem for the mods.

 

Ermabwed

"Automatically guilty" will not work (families and easily to get around as pointed out multiple times, discriminable only by intent are the reasons that to come to mind immediately), and forget the army of alts, you can hardly call 5 alts an army.

Also this leaves again the rules out of the discussion but as I pointed out above, that would be extremely complicated and not feasible, because if you only have "can't park at NPC" that is so easily gotten around that I shouldn't even mention it, so we're back at the situation of alt trades (see my previous post).

And on "why not do that?": because they aren't always available and rules are there to mark the boundaries of what's allowed and what's not allowed not to provide suggestions on alternately dealing with game situations.

 

Tirun

There are a lot of names on the bans forum for multiplay but not the percentage of cheaters much like the percentage of criminals in real life is actually very low. The mods already have ideas of who they should be looking at. Making multiplay legal is not going to turn every person in EL into a cheater. Worst case scenarios are always caught. I think there will be fewer cheaters because there will be fewer reasons to cheat so the mods work load should not increase. The idea that people could accidentally park their alts by NPCs all of the time is pathetically ridiculous. Dodging the antisocial perk without leaving alts parked at the NPCs, especially now that invasions are being made to happen in all maps, is not that easy.

 

Ermabwed

Banning people just because they look like they are abusing the rules, that just leaves your doors wide, wide open, just imagine the spamfest in bans forums, "guilty until proven innocent", great. Plus this would obviously add significantly to moderator workload and frustration.

There might be no reason for jumping through the hoops but if it's not forbidden, then it's allowed thus leading the rule to absurdity, so you'll have to disallow it and we're back at my previous post. Also the jumping through hoops wasn't limited to antisocial-get-around, the point was the impossibility of seriously trying to limit alt trades in general.

Army of alts and NPC parking, see above.

 

Tirun

If you look like you are consistently violating the rules that you are familiar with when it is so easy to avoid makes you bannable. It is almost statistically impossible to look guilty when we are talking about 4 or more characters all doing something in the same pattern which implies the rules are being broken. Yes there will be people who try to cheat with multiplay legal but as I stated it should be far fewer people. How can intent be judged if not by actions?? Does everyone who has ever gotten banned get to say it was not their 'intention' to multiplay? That is just stupid. If the rules are defined they are easy to follow and with multiplay allowed I once again iterate that far fewer people will be motivated to cheat at all.

 

I said ask Entropy about the scamming thing since it is his idea and I stick to that. There is no reason to consider that in this discussion.

There is, as I pointed out in my previous post. And the fact remains that the rule wouldn't make sense as you agreed, no matter what the reasoning behind it is, as long as scamming is legal and again, it would significantly increase moderator workload.

 

Tirun

If it does not make any sense for any reason then why discuss it at all? Either Entropy will implement it or not for whatever his reasons and without asking him you are left with nothing to talk about.

 

Ermabwed

So, since you didn't say anything new and I am going on vacation today, you have 12 days to come up with some sound reasoning to refute the points I made above

And no, saying my points are ridiculous, claiming armies of alts, basing assumptions on fairy users etc. is generally not considered "sound reasoning".

 

PS: No offense Tirun

 

Tirun

No offense taken even if intended. The truth is that so many people have started saying lately that this game is more work than fun that it might be best to just charge a small sum of gold for the pick points from antisocial and let that be the limiting factor. Make the perk worth 10K per pick point. You have to pay 100K for the perk and work around it with either your own alt or a friends help. This would give everyone an easy emu boost which is now needed in the game. We need more storage slots and multiplay would give that. We need more emu because the new items in the game are becoming to massively ingredient intensive that is hard to make them even at storage.

 

People as we all know have started leaving EL for other games. The all arounders feel that the game is too hard because of the ever increasing nexus and emu requirements that are making the game work instead of fun. The fighters are leaving for all of the reasons posted everywhere in the forums. If EL is going to progressively become harder and harder with higher emu and nexus required then there needs to be a new way to get EMU or multiplay needs to be implemented.

 

The goals at the top of every skill are becoming so emu hungry that the pick points needed for nexus are too hard to get. The secrets to making things on site are becoming harder to find on top of items becoming harder to make. The truth is that no one wants to risk anything in PK because it is too hard to replace and that is because things are too hard to make. We need to multiplay to allow the economy to get out of the stagnation it is in. EL needs to be fun again for everyone.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

No

[Chosen]

If Illigal-Multi is allowed, I'm intrested to see how this would affect those that have had punishment/bans/stats loss, whatever, because of Illigal-multi. It seems somewhat unfair that now someone could get away with it np, but all those befor lost out on alot of stuff/time whatever.

[Aislinn]

If Illigal-Multi is allowed, I'm intrested to see how this would affect those that have had punishment/bans/stats loss, whatever, because of Illigal-multi. It seems somewhat unfair that now someone could get away with it np, but all those befor lost out on alot of stuff/time whatever.

It would not affect anything. At the time people were punished, they WERE breaking the rules. Nothing would change, they would not get their characters/illegally gotten items/stats back. It is very fair, they broke the rules at that time.

[Llywar]

I'm afraid I disagree with Tirun...

 

I think that it SHOULD be a tradeoff when you spend PPs on one thing or another. EL may be classless, but that doesn't mean that all characters in the game should be identical. The goal of the game isn't to make everybody self-sufficient so that nobody needs to work together at all. In my opinion part of the value of the game is when people have to work together - otherwise it is just a single-player game with other people running around being annoying by competing for spawns...

 

To me the point of EL isn't being #1 in every skill at the same time. It isn't even being #1 in ANY skill (I don't play nearly often enough and I'm so far behind from the start that this isn't remotely achievable for me anyway). To me the game is a framework for having fun.

 

I think that if you choose to be an all-arounder that should be a compromise. If you choose to sink so many PPs into nexuses so that you can summon/alch/harvest/manufacture/craft every item in the game then you should end up with low emu/p/c/etc as a result. Then you'll end up buying tons of stuff from harvesters who have more emu (and who in turn depend on you to mix everything for them).

 

I think that the game should be structured so that somebody who has chosen one specialty and has played for 3 years can team up with somebody who has played for only 6 months but with a different specialty - so that both can benefit. Players who have been around for a long time shouldn't be SO far ahead in EVERY aspect of the game that they're essentially independant.

 

I like the fact that EL is classless, but that doesn't mean that it should be free from any and all decisions. There is always #reset or stones if you make a mistake (and I'm all for having perk-removal stones as well - as long as obvious potential abuses are prevented). If there is some item I need that it just doesn't make sense for me to make then I can always pay somebody else to make it for me. If somebody has chosen to sink a bunch of PPs into an unpopular or less beneficial nexus they can charge a premium when people need something that they can make.

 

I for one don't think that EL is getting "too hard" - it is just that as you hit higher levels you get into diminishing returns. Maybe for me it takes forever to get from OA 68-69, and for you that pain doesn't come until OA 119 - either way at some point everybody starts hitting the max they can rapidly achieve with a given time investment. That is just part of the game. It only seems painful if your only satisfaction is in getting levels. Instead you might be better off investing in newbies and team activities (and EL would benefit from there being more opportunities here).

 

I like antisocial and multiplaying just the way they are now. I like to potion and manufacture quite a bit and not having Trik or the vial seller would be a major pain - so I don't take antisocial. That gives me a 10PP penalty, but it gives me other advantages. If somebody is willing to give up the NPCs they can get 10 levels ahead of me "for free", but there is a price. And if you get tired of it there is always #reset if you want a complete career change.

 

Personally, I like being an all-arounder - I like to vary things from time to time. But in no way do I expect to have the same advantages of a specialist - I'll never have the p/c, or the emu of a specialist. On the other hand, I can make many medium-level items completely from scratch and save a lot of cost. Maybe I'll reset and change my mind some day, or use stones. But I don't think that EL needs to start handing out free PPs just so that I can get an emu boost. (And it would be annoying if EVERYBODY essentially had to get antisocial and leave an alt parked next to the various NPCs just to be competitive - why not just skip the perk and just give everybody free PPs instead?)

[TirunCollimdus]

It would be great if we could do as you suggested Llywar but unfortunately for all of us the EL economy does not support your ideas. The ingredients for very nearly every item in the game cost more than the finished product so doing things your way means operating a loss in every skill all of the time. So you play continuously broke and have a very hard time replacing broken equipment no matter how much it costs and the expensive stuff is nearly impossible to replace.

 

Harvesting to get money to level is not what I think of as a fun game. That is why I want to be able to do everything for myself but not by myself. RICH when I was in it and PATH now are both teamwork only guilds. You have to contribute to the whole to be a part. If you don't do it that way then your guild members do not interact and wind up just using each other when it is convenient. If you can come up with a way to make paying low level players for ings to be profitable even just a tiny bit then let me know please. I will continue to support multiplay until the economy either supports your idea of how things should be done or something changes with emu.

 

Being able to pay lower level players for ings would be a dream come true in EL but I do not see it ever happening. Even with multiplay being legal teamwork is still the only way to go in EL. The game is just 10X easier and 1000X more fun when you work as a team. I am not trying to support multiplay to make EL as a single player game. What is the point of playing a MMORPG by yourself?? You can play tons of single player games without the lag if you just want to play a game by yourself. Multiplaying as a team helps defend you from bag jumpers and gives you the extra person you might need when RL pulls someone away from the team.

 

TirunCollimdus

CoGM of PATH

Perseverance And Tolerance Honored

[neildog]

It would be great if we could do as you suggested Llywar but unfortunately for all of us the EL economy does not support your ideas. The ingredients for very nearly every item in the game cost more than the finished product so doing things your way means operating a loss in every skill all of the time.

 

Well in theory every ingredient is free. If your an all rounder then (and certainly speaking for myself) you can be pretty much self sufficient. There is a post here at the moment someone selling 100k ME for 700k. All that cost him was time (admittedly more time than I could be bothered to spend )!

 

My point is your argument doesn't stack up, I don't see how possibly having multiplaying will fix/improve the economy other than drive prices down further therefore using your argument above you'd operate at even more of a loss?!

 

But your right the teamwork aspect of the game is fun and a very needed part but I don't see why you need multiplay for this. The teamwork is there today...

 

However I do/did support multiplaying but for different reasons (my secret plan for world domination, I could tell you but would then have to kill you) and I made a couple of posts on here near the start where I think myself and Ace both suggested something similar in the form of "Accounts". Each person/IP has an account and you can only have maybe 3/4 Chars. This enables familes to play from same address but limits any one player having too many alts therefore at least reducing the impact of a lot of the negatives people have raised in this topic.

Edited August 21, 2007 by neildog

[Llywar]

I don't think multiplay will solve ANY of these problems. All it will do is give people a ton of free emu and effective free PPs (they can have 5 specialists). They'll advance in levels MUCH faster as a result. Then they'll hit the same barriers they're hitting now. The only difference is that we'll be complainging about how it is 100M xp between levels instead of 10M, and how you can't make a profit on anything because iron ore costs 0.1gc each while everything made from it costs 0.05gc/ore.

 

The issue is the grind - people want xp, and they're willing to suffer a loss of gc to get it. You can't have 2k players in EL and have 2/3rds of them want to make 30 suits of armor a day. At least, not unless we make armor fall apart on every other hit (and guess what that will do to the prices!). The only way to have that kind of volume of production is to have NPCs buy items for more than cost. And that can create a gc surplus if one isn't careful.

 

In some sense I guess this is like real life - there are a lot more people making $8/hr than $45/hr, although if people could play "Real Life - the game" they wouldn't be specializing in burger-flipping. Likewise in EL we'd all like to sit down and make 25 CoLs every day for mega-profit, but the game just can't support that (at least not without making the CoL such a commonplace item that nobody would want to bother making it any longer).

 

I'd love to see fixes for some of the economic problems EL has, but I'm not sure what they would be. I don't think that multiplaying will solve anything though. You'll just have lots of lag as armies of drones walk across the maps hauling stuff. Why not just give everybody 1000 more emu for free, or drop the weight of every item by a factor of 10 and lower all the recommended levels? That will make the game "easier" in some sense, but then we'll all complain about how there is nothing to strive for.

 

I like the fact that there are tons of items in the game that I can't make - it gives me something to work towards.

[Marcvs]

I have voted yes, but I think on some problems that can come out if you take that decision:

 

first: the crowding of the storages is sometimes a problem: with multiplaying it will become impossible to reach the NPC, if any of us have two, three or more pg workin'together.

 

This way of playing can put the player in conflict with the rule of "no character spamming".

 

With multiplaying, some of us will have the opportunity to become very strong in fight (makin long fight session, with a second pg that carry supplies, for example) or very rich (putting more than one pg to harvest resources). Those are not positive or negative thinks...you only have to ponder it.

 

I guess that anyone that want to make multiplayng (IF you will decide that this is a good implementation for the game) have to declare, somewhere or at someone, the pgs that it will use. That "list" can be consultable by all players or not, I don't know. You can consider also to limit the number of pgs that a single player can use (I think to a very restricted number, like 2 or 3...even though playing with 3 pg at time would be not so easy). I think also that only one pg of a player can enter in a guild. Multiplaying can be also used to make spionage on other guilds, and that must be prevented (IMHO).

 

Mines are only observations...I would be happy to have the possibility to make multiplaying...but I think that it will become harder to control the game (I also think at the work of the moderators). Anyway, I think it will be a good think.

 

We're in your hands, Entropy

[Khalai]

Voted no and I'm 100% sure of it.

 

All of my reasons, why I voted so have been stated in previous posts, so it's useless to repeat them.

 

And I do hope, this won't get into the game, otherwise, it would just ruin the purpose of it.

[Ermabwed]

How many legitimate characters can you actually run at one time Erma? People have played for years and only gotten a couple of characters legitimately up to high OAs. If it was SO easy to run multiple characters and level them then why are characters bought and sold for hundreds of US dollars? My statement was that it would take patterns to make people guilty. Yes there are a couple of places near NPCs it is worthwhile to park at but not enough for your 5 alts. The mods already spend time identifying mules so that is not a problem. The ways to find cheaters won't change that much so it should not be a problem for the mods.

I ran 4 clients (one of them in my usual resolution) for a test and yes, I mixed/fought/harved on my main while harvesting on the alts. I'm pretty sure my 2 year old laptop can do more. Anyways, it's not about high OAs, there's plenty of free non negative 'negative' perks, with legal multiplay one could even buy some of the negative perks that require a fee without work. The second part of your argument tries to go back to telling players where to harvest which we identified as bullshit already, plus you forget that there will be (much) more characters to be checked by mods, so that part of your argument doesn't hold either.

 

There are a lot of names on the bans forum for multiplay but not the percentage of cheaters much like the percentage of criminals in real life is actually very low. The mods already have ideas of who they should be looking at. Making multiplay legal is not going to turn every person in EL into a cheater. Worst case scenarios are always caught. I think there will be fewer cheaters because there will be fewer reasons to cheat so the mods work load should not increase. The idea that people could accidentally park their alts by NPCs all of the time is pathetically ridiculous. Dodging the antisocial perk without leaving alts parked at the NPCs, especially now that invasions are being made to happen in all maps, is not that easy.

It would be a huge temptation for anybody hungry for PPs. I pointed out that you don't have to park alts at NPCs because that would be illegal etc. etc. (see posts above for the implications of that) and invasions happening in all maps: tell me what's there to loose except for a limited amount of harvestables and an excavator cloak. The chance for an invasion is one per RL day iirc, lots of maps to choose from, that is so not going to deter anyone from afk harvesting. Worst case scenarios won't be "always caught", in the light of my previous posts that you couldn't dispute and tried to evade it's obvious that the worst case scenarios will be amongst the ones that are most profitable as well as hardest to prove.

 

If you look like you are consistently violating the rules that you are familiar with when it is so easy to avoid makes you bannable. It is almost statistically impossible to look guilty when we are talking about 4 or more characters all doing something in the same pattern which implies the rules are being broken. Yes there will be people who try to cheat with multiplay legal but as I stated it should be far fewer people. How can intent be judged if not by actions?? Does everyone who has ever gotten banned get to say it was not their 'intention' to multiplay? That is just stupid. If the rules are defined they are easy to follow and with multiplay allowed I once again iterate that far fewer people will be motivated to cheat at all.

Now wait a minute: you say it's easy to avoid looking guilty, that's what I've been saying all along! You can be guilty as hell and still look innocent and you can be innocent like a newborn baby and look guilty.

There will be a lot of similar patterns because after all, the intent of multiplay alts will be to gain advantage through harvesting for money or resources. How can intent be judged but by actions you ask, again, that's just my point as pointed out multiple times now. "If rules are defined...", again, exactly my point in previous posts, rules will have to be expanded tremendously etc. etc., not going there again.

 

@rules

If it does not make any sense for any reason then why discuss it at all? Either Entropy will implement it or not for whatever his reasons and without asking him you are left with nothing to talk about.

It's legitimate asking you to discuss this rule, because you are advocating implementing this rule that does not make sense even to you.

 

The truth is that so many people have started saying lately that this game is more work than fun that it might be best to just charge a small sum of gold for the pick points from antisocial and let that be the limiting factor. Make the perk worth 10K per pick point. You have to pay 100K for the perk and work around it with either your own alt or a friends help. This would give everyone an easy emu boost which is now needed in the game. We need more storage slots and multiplay would give that. We need more emu because the new items in the game are becoming to massively ingredient intensive that is hard to make them even at storage.

I haven't heard anybody say that, paying for PPs that way is even worse than buying them with nexus removal/hydro bars which is after all much more expensive. EMU boost is not needed at the moment, from what I gather from multiple forum posts etc. is that less p/c is the way to go once you hit certain a/d levels to be able to stay on fluffies... (allroundedness includes a/d and a/d is a nice way to get PPs) for other points on this see also Llywar's post(s), plus the emu intensive items aren't necessarily the best leveling items anyways, same goes for nexus intensive items. By the way we don't need more storage slots.

And 'more work than fun', I have certainly felt that way at some points, but please get a clue: who's controlling the char and doing stuff that is not fun, you or the game? Controlling multiple chars is more work and more like work too, so to help these hard working players you should be against multiplaying, because if they feel like they have to work now to stay competitive or whatever, they'll be sure to use multiplaying; even less fun for them

 

People as we all know have started leaving EL for other games. The all arounders feel that the game is too hard because of the ever increasing nexus and emu requirements that are making the game work instead of fun. The fighters are leaving for all of the reasons posted everywhere in the forums. If EL is going to progressively become harder and harder with higher emu and nexus required then there needs to be a new way to get EMU or multiplay needs to be implemented.

People leave all the time for various reasons; ever increasing nexus and emu requirements, see above and Llywar's post, your conclusion is wrong.

 

The goals at the top of every skill are becoming so emu hungry that the pick points needed for nexus are too hard to get. The secrets to making things on site are becoming harder to find on top of items becoming harder to make. The truth is that no one wants to risk anything in PK because it is too hard to replace and that is because things are too hard to make. We need to multiplay to allow the economy to get out of the stagnation it is in. EL needs to be fun again for everyone.

You can get nexi from hydro bars, so it's basically a matter of time to get them without spending PPs, the top is not for everybody as Llywar pointed out.

 

Look, Tirun, in order to this argument going anywhere I ask you to use a bit more reason in your posts; it's not that I really mind pointing out the flaws in your so called arguments, but I'd prefer a bit more of a challenge there