Buyable nexuses

[Llywar]

If there is such feature implemented I would prefer to see it either in way proposed by Atlantis or by Grozni. It would prevent buying attributes.

 

Well, it would only prevent buying attributes with hydro bars. Cold hard cash can still be used to buy attributes and there is no technical limitation that will ever be able to stop that (just give the cash to somebody whose time is of little value to them and let them grind all day for you - I'm sure even Anshar would accept cash for pp's if the price was right).

 

I'd just as soon see a price for nexuses, a price for attributes, and a price for transfers. Since all three can be bought anyway why not at least balance things and just be open and honest about it? And using bars for levelling has a different effect on the economy than using xp (it is hard to say whether it would be substantially better or worse, but variety in and of itself probably would help the economy).

 

And I still don't see why attributes are any more important than nexuses. One is more useful for muling and killing, the other is more useful for manuf/pot/craft/etc. Unless you're obsessed with being the top PKer in KF 5 points in either is equally valuable. The biggest difference to me is that at most you'll sink 25-30 points into nexuses and potentially a lot more into attributes (eventually). That and it seems like the characters who are most obsessed with stats don't "waste" any pp's on nexuses and that might be the source of concern about buying attributes - it changes the balance of power threatening those who have sunk the most time into the game with the possibility of not being top-dog. Then again, maybe I shouldn't complain - all those folks with 0 points in nexuses and a need to burn through weapons/armor/etc to grind on chims/yetis/dragons/whatever at least give me somebody to sell stuff to.

 

The only thing that is protecting EL from massive trading in high-level players is its relative obscurity and the fact that those with money to burn tend to play on pay-to-play services. If EL's popularity continues to grow eventually KF will be dominated not by teenagers who have invested thousands of hours of time in the game, but by middle-aged guys who've dropped $300 on a level-150 character with a $100 suit of the best gear farmers can make. I'm not sure anybody will necessarily notice a change in maturity level, although it will be sad to see the spawns and ores crowded by farmers who don't bother to participate in the game.

[scandium]

In general I like the idea, but:

Has anyone of you ever actually tried to buy nexus?

I am OA 120 and didnt train for 3 weeks or so now, only mining etc. and I feel like it's not paying off

 

What I mean is this:

At around oa132 you need ~10mil exp for next OA, which would take most people around 10 days, 1mil/day with training (fighting) isn't that hard, I think most agree. So it would take you like max. 2 weeks to get another OA, but in 2 weeks I can only mine the iron I need for 50 hydro bars, speak alone of all the coal and FE needed for the s2e (+ feasting pots (or poison antidote costs to mix s2e and all those steel bars.

Then once you have the s2e you need insane trips to the hydro spots which probably costs you ~15kgc worth of tele essence costs alone (or even more time if you mix then yourself).

 

Personally I have 65k iron ore in storage now, but given up on the plan to buy nexus with hydro bars, it just doesnt pay off if your oa is below 150 and I think no one (besides 17 year old kids or unemployed (no offense who can play the game 8-10 hours a day) is in the mood to reset at oa120+ for bought nexus and then pvp/train for months again just to get back to that oa.

 

And buying nexus only works if you are in a *really* comfortable position anyway, so lowering the amount of hydro bars to like 40 wouldn't cause a sudden nexus buy rush.

Yes, I understand that buying nexus with hydro bars isn't that easy, but at the moment it's just too hard even for "advanced" players, unless you buy a lot of things with real $.

 

I realize that lowering the amount won't happen because it would be unfair to those who bought for 50 already but when I read some posts here I think many people who never actually tried to make even 1 hydro bar are posting here.

Edited February 22, 2007 by scandium

[scarr]

im a fighter, i dont want to alch for hydro bars

 

i want too earn my money with fighting

[Vanyel]

If there is such feature implemented I would prefer to see it either in way proposed by Atlantis or by Grozni. It would prevent buying attributes.

 

Well, it would only prevent buying attributes with hydro bars. Cold hard cash can still be used to buy attributes and there is no technical limitation that will ever be able to stop that (just give the cash to somebody whose time is of little value to them and let them grind all day for you - I'm sure even Anshar would accept cash for pp's if the price was right).

 

 

Had you play a bit longer you would know that buying attributes for 'cold hard cash' used to be in game and Entropy himself decided not to do it again.

I'm sure you don't know me nor I don't know you. If you know me you would never ever come up with such a stupid idea. Nope, you're very very wrong, I would never ever accept any way of buying attributes/nexus/skills/perks for 'cold hard cash'. For NONE price. I'm really sorry to disappoint you.

[NitageR]

At first this feature would be very nice for 130+ oa players. At lower oas better option is simple #reset, but of course everyone could use it.

 

As was said before "pure gc" shouldn't be used for it. It would be a way too simple. The whole idea is, that high demand on hydro bars would touch many skills in a positive way (harvesting iron ores, coal, fe ingredients, making steel and iron bars, making s2e swords, mining hydro and finally making bars). Many players would benefit from it. And i am sure it would bring a lot of team work to the game. Fighters with huge emu would be handy to mule ores, swords etc and to protect hydro miners. I would love to see and participate guild projects. I remember when new armors came, guild PL was sitting in caves mining stuff to make them. It was so great

 

But of course again $$ players. I guess Entropy is really bored with "omfg again IRL rich people". EL needs to be supported to be developed. Think for a min.. how many of you have magic swords or p2p race, so wft? I see.. it is ok if you pay gc to someone who will pay for you $ for a nick change/race etc and noone bitches about it.

 

@touching nexuses/attributes aspect: Game is changing, updates are comming, useful skills and nexuses become wasted pps for many players. That's why we asked Entropy about this new feature.. people please trust me I am a normal player as most of you and I am sure I will benefit from it w/o putting 1$ into it. There are many players like me, just look around ,ok?

 

Well maybe some people are just lazy and jealous and prefer to gain forum exp instead of developing their chars and earning ingame money or find a RL job, so you can also pay $. You can afford everything w/o putting single RL money into the game. When I started EL I had a dream to have one day all magic serps in my storage. And now I have 3 thermals, 1 magic, 1 ice, 1 fire.. all were paid by me for ingame gc or items.

 

I say once more, we all would benefit from it but of course if poeple will complain Entropy gets pissed off and won't implement it. Come one, let's give it a chance.

 

@people who reseted already.. They have what they wanted.. 0 pps from oa put on nexuses, so? Besides noone was forced to #reset. This idea with getting pps from nexuses for a hydro bars fee was known, because many players were talking about it.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

 

[littlestar]

In general I like the idea, but:

Has anyone of you ever actually tried to buy nexus?

I am OA 120 and didnt train for 3 weeks or so now, only mining etc. and I feel like it's not paying off

 

Yes I've tried it, #reset from oa 137 and bought nexuses for hydro bars

[Jaclaw]

players who spend real money for game always have advantage and they will have

it isn't only in el but in almost every mmorpg game you can't change it you have to get used to it

imo as long as they don't spoil fun it's ok, people who complaing about it tell me do you have p2p race or thermal sword ?

now lets return to topic

game is beta so it changes and it will change i tihnk we should be able to move pp bettwen attributes, perks and nexuses. this way we will be able to correct small mistakes in char building or get rid off nexs which became useless after update. Not for free of course

I'm against buying pp so i think ppl should be able to decide if they want to move pp or buy nex

i think you could make free perk which allow you to buy nex and 2-nd one which allow you to move next you can't have both of course.

people who reseted will have still 7pp free

[Vanyel]

A

But of course again $$ players. I guess Entropy is really bored with "omfg again IRL rich people". EL needs to be supported to be developed. Think for a min.. how many of you have magic swords or p2p race, so wft? I see.. it is ok if you pay gc to someone who will pay for you $ for a nick change/race etc and noone bitches about it.

 

@touching nexuses/attributes aspect: Game is changing, updates are comming, useful skills and nexuses become wasted pps for many players. That's why we asked Entropy about this new feature.. people please trust me I am a normal player as most of you and I am sure I will benefit from it w/o putting 1$ into it. There are many players like me, just look around ,ok?

 

 

Well maybe some people are just lazy and jealous and prefer to gain forum exp instead of developing their chars and earning ingame money or find a RL job, so you can also pay $. You can afford everything w/o putting single RL money into the game. When I started EL I had a dream to have one day all magic serps in my storage. And now I have 3 thermals, 1 magic, 1 ice, 1 fire.. all were paid by me for ingame gc or items.

 

I see at least on difference between getting p2p race, look change, name change, etc. and buying nexus/attributes/pickpoints for cash. I'm surprised you've put these different things in one category.

EL needs cash to be developped and I think it's getting cash for items, p2p changes, look changes, name changes, etc. Not sure if source of additional cash, such as buyable attributes, is what is really needed. All in all it will screw the game up completely. Afaik it had been tested once upon the time, didn't work well. Let's think, fighters would buy more p/c so they can PK easier, then they whine there are no monsters in game they could train on - because they are too strong already. Vicious circle. I don't care if some pay in cash for this, some pay in gc to people tha pay in cash for them. Still, imo, it would screw the game.

If moving pickpoints is to be implemented then I do hope it's in one of the ways Grozni and Atlantis proposed. However, even this will not stop people moving pickpoints from nexus to attributes. They will just buy nexus, and move additional points to attributes. More reasonable would be removing perks or transferring pickpoints between attributes (yet, the transaction made only between attributes) and between nexus (the transaction made only nexus).

Regards,

Lazy person not developping skills, yet scoring forums XP

Anshar

 

PS. In case of reset all bought pickpoints should go as well. Life is brutal.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Anshar

[Darc0]

I agree with the idea of EITHER being able to buy nexus OR being able to move PPs around. Only way you should be able to change from one to the other should be #reset (so, possibly two perks that costs 1 or 2 PPs each that grant an ability to talk to the NPC to buy nexus or talk to another NPC that helps you re-arrange PPs, you can only have one or the other). This way, no one can buy PPs for stats, and everyone who chooses to follow either path winds up paying something for it, while folks that choose to follow neither still get some benefit (not having spent PPs on either perk).

 

Also, I believe it has been stated before that if you #reset you do lose all bought pickpoints as well as regular ones.

[Ambrosius]

LOL

 

We are not talking about buying PPs here for RL $.

We are simply talking about redistributing already earned PP's.

The nexus PP's you bought for hydro bars shouldnt be made redistributable they should stay in nexus....i agree there.

 

And btw:

ATM, if you reset you also loose the nexus you bought with hydro bars.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Ambrosius

[Vanyel]

LOL

 

We are not talking about buying PPs here for RL $.

We are simply talking about redistributing already earned PP's.

The nexus PP's you bought for hydro bars shouldnt be made redistributable they should stay in nexus....i agree there.

 

And btw:

ATM, if you reset you also loose the nexus you bought with hydro bars.

 

You see... if pps are possible to move between nexus and attributes there is NO chance to prevent moving 'bought' points to attributes.

If one have human at 7, buys another 7 points in this nexus, moves 7 previously earnt pickpoints to let's say physique. It makes the bought nexus not transferred, but... is it really not transferred to attributes?

I talked to Nitager in game and he pointed out some things that I had to agree with. After this chat I do understand why he wants ot be allowed to move some pickpoints. However I do agree with him also in the point that it should be one-or-one transaction. Either you buy nexus or you transfer pickpoints earnt in normal way. You should never be allowed to make both, what was suggested couple times before:

 

@Entropy

I'm really sorry if you're taking my posts as whining against 'rich irl evil people'. Not my point. I just do love this community and I like the game itself. Wouldn't like to see it screwed. Not that my opinion of what's good/bad for the game is correct:P

Edited February 22, 2007 by Anshar

[Ambrosius]

LOL

 

We are not talking about buying PPs here for RL $.

We are simply talking about redistributing already earned PP's.

The nexus PP's you bought for hydro bars shouldnt be made redistributable they should stay in nexus....i agree there.

 

And btw:

ATM, if you reset you also loose the nexus you bought with hydro bars.

 

You see... if pps are possible to move between nexus and attributes there is NO chance to prevent moving 'bought' points to attributes.

If one have human at 7, buys another 7 points in this nexus, moves 7 previously earnt pickpoints to let's say physique. It makes the bought nexus not transferred, but... is it really not transferred to attributes?

I talked to Nitager in game and he pointed out some things that I had to agree with. After this chat I do understand why he wants ot be allowed to move some pickpoints. However I do agree with him also in the point that it should be one-or-one transaction. Either you buy nexus or you transfer pickpoints earnt in normal way. You should never be allowed to make both, what was suggested couple times before:

 

@Entropy

I'm really sorry if you're taking my posts as whining against 'rich irl evil people'. Not my point. I just do love this community and I like the game itself. Wouldn't like to see it screwed. Not that my opinion of what's good/bad for the game is correct:P

 

Its no different than lets say.... resetting and buying those 7 human nexus PP's. If the bought nexus PP's cannot be moved and stay in the nexus you put them in, i really dont see the problem.

[Vanyel]

Its no different than lets say.... resetting and buying those 7 human nexus PP's. If the bought nexus PP's cannot be moved and stay in the nexus you put them in, i really dont see the problem.

 

The reset part makes a huge difference.

[Ambrosius]

Its no different than lets say.... resetting and buying those 7 human nexus PP's. If the bought nexus PP's cannot be moved and stay in the nexus you put them in, i really dont see the problem.

 

The reset part makes a huge difference.

 

Does it?

 

If you are 100 oa and reset its real easy to get that back...few weeks maybe

 

If your 140 oa like me (326 million oa xp) its not that easy heh? Would be real nice if ppl like me and all 120+ oa ppl for that mather would have an option to change smth in their nexus /p/c/w setup without having to reset a years work.....

 

So i still dont see problem with this idea......

Edited February 22, 2007 by Ambrosius

[Vanyel]

So i still dont see problem with this idea......

 

Is it because you are OA 140? Or is there any other reason.

 

I've talked to some high level people and they were not very keen on transfer bought pickpoints from nexus to attributes. Yet, they were keen on to make 2 NPCs - one for transfering pickpointes for ones who did not buy a single and second for ones that prefer to reset and buy the nexus. It sounds fair. (Yeah, they convinced me).

[Ambrosius]

Didnt i make it very clear i am against transfering bought pickpoints?

 

And no, replacing a PP you got from lvling with a PP you bought with hydro bars isnt same as buying PP's.....at least not more than resetting and buying all your nex PPs.

 

For one you can never get more PP back then you put in nexus already earned from lvling only those ones should be made redistibutable.

and second you can at best get yourself in the same spot as the players who reset and bought all their nex pps......but that at a very high price (20 + 50 hydro bars for example).

 

So i still dont see problem

 

Bought pickpoints should stay in nex...the ones you got from leveling should be the ones that can be transferred to other nexus or p/c/w.

 

That said id be perfectly happy with the 2 NPC option as well

Edited February 23, 2007 by Ambrosius

[senkrad]

I have now voted that I like this idea. I know it has already been implemented but I now feel that it is of benifit to the game.

 

As far as options to allow for tweaking of a character, I agree with the option of the two paths. One path allows purchasing of Nexus with Hydro and the other allows for the returning of PP from nexus with Hydro. With no option for both paths to cross.

 

I took the godless perk. This prevents me from benfiting from the blessings of the gods but gave me some PP with which to spend how I saw fit. I choose my path and I am happy with my path. If I want to change my path I can #reset. I would however like the option of tweaking my nexuses.

[Entropy]

BTW:

Once we have the Ranging/Archery skill and once we have the different visibility affecting combat (based on the darkness of a place in conjunction with the perception attribute), the Perception attribute will be pretty important, so I do expect some high level people to reset. Of course, if they don't care about the ranged attacks, they don't have to.

[Atlantis]

BTW:

Once we have the Ranging/Archery skill and once we have the different visibility affecting combat (based on the darkness of a place in conjunction with the perception attribute), the Perception attribute will be pretty important, so I do expect some high level people to reset. Of course, if they don't care about the ranged attacks, they don't have to.

Project was started over a year ago -> progress slow -> not worried

[Entropy]

Um, actually we started weeks ago, and so far about 40% of the work has been done. The rest of the 60% will take longer (it also requires more tests, and 3d stuff and animations and client work), but it will be ready in the fall.

[Happy_G]

50 bars is not 500K gold.

It's not like you can trade just 500K gold for 50 bars at once, you trade maybe 50K for 5 bars, then have to wait, then wait again, then trade maybe another 50K for 5 bars.. it can take days to get 50 bars.

 

 

making 50 H-bars does take alot of work, im working on my 2nd batch of 50, first batch was bought by senia. Senia has also reserved the 2nd batch that im working on now, the 2nd batch has taken almost a week so far and i expect to have it done next week (first batch took about 3 months, mined everything myself)

[hades]

BTW:

Once we have the Ranging/Archery skill and once we have the different visibility affecting combat (based on the darkness of a place in conjunction with the perception attribute), the Perception attribute will be pretty important, so I do expect some high level people to reset. Of course, if they don't care about the ranged attacks, they don't have to.

 

or if they dont pk

 

But im interested very much in this new skill and i may reset from my nice OA if it will be possible to kill top a/d players or at least have some chances and not be only a matter of who has more a/d/p/c .

 

Magic could also become a skill of its own using same ranging/archery mechanism

[asgnny]

50 bars is not 500K gold.

It's not like you can trade just 500K gold for 50 bars at once, you trade maybe 50K for 5 bars, then have to wait, then wait again, then trade maybe another 50K for 5 bars.. it can take days to get 50 bars.

 

50 bars for 500k gold may take a while (unless one plans ahead and places reasonably large orders, in which case this is quite easy). However, it IS extremely feasible to buy 50 bars for 750k gc from the NPC at 15k per bar. This could be done in an instant. Yes, it is expensive, however not ridiculously so. I see this as something that could be exploited in the future, should a buyback option be introduced.

 

Even if it were a God-like system, wherein a player could only choose one or the other, or face some penalty, such as 100k gc to switch -- it would be easily worthwhile. In the quest for earning a single pickpoint, high-level fighters can easily break 100k gc worth of armor, and also gain 100k gc worth of drops. Gold coins are easy come, easy go. Pickpoints have never been so easy (aside from some recently added perks) to gain. I'd like to see them remain an accomplishment, as they were originally designed, rather than an exploitable "feature".

[Entropy]

I think you are missing an important point:

You can not buy gold coins (at least not from the shop). The gold is in a limited suply in the game, and if 750K gold exits the game from one single player, for one pick point, I think it is far better for the whole game.

 

But like I said, I don't really feel like implementing such a feature just to hear tons of players bitching left and right about how unfair it is. I have much more important things to do.

[Llywar]

Gold coins are easy come, easy go. Pickpoints have never been so easy (aside from some recently added perks) to gain. I'd like to see them remain an accomplishment, as they were originally designed, rather than an exploitable "feature".

 

Actually, they're already an exploitable feature. Just pay somebody to level your character, or buy an already-leveled character. If people cared that much that they'd be trading IRL $$$ for 50 pp's or anything like that, they'd already be paying people to do it.

 

I've heard 140OA talked about in this thread as a 1-year accomplishment. Let's figure that is by somebody playing 2 hours a day every day. Or 730 hours. For $3650 you could pay 3 people in third-world countries $5/hr to level your character in shifts. It would take them 1 month to do so. Assuming you could get 2000gc selling stuff for every dollar spent in the EL store you could buy only 730 hydro bars for 10k apiece. So you can get 140 pickpoints from paying somebody to level your character, or 15 from buying pickpoints. And that isn't even factoring in having to buy another 20 bars per pp for non-nexus pickpoints.

 

Even if I'm off by a factor of 5 on the hours required to get OA140 it is STILL cheaper to pay somebody to level you than to buy pp's with hydro bars. And for those who think a month is a long time to wait for the process to be finished - don't forget that if it takes off people will go ahead and level chars and sell them once they're done - so now you can have 140 levels in 5 minutes from a web-store.

 

So, I see buying pp's in-game with bars as a way to let people tweak their characters and create demand for manuf/alch without giving people spending money at the shop a whole lot more power than they have already. And it at least makes the process more regulatable. In fact, if EL did start getting loaded up with mindless drones levelling characters I'd lower the pp prices to put them out of business (in addition to other measures - maybe a cap on number of hours per day you can get xp for actions in-game).