More Zoom-out level

[TriMoon]

I would appriciate it if i were able to zoom out more so i can have a better overview of my surroundings.

Currently the max zoom i can have, using mouse scroll wheel, is not enough for a good overview.

Thanks whoever makes it possible...

[ttlanhil]

the further out you get, the slower it gets, and the more visual problems there are. hence why it hasn't happened the other times either (which you should have seen when you searched)

[TriMoon]

Err i dnt know what you mean....

I searched for my issue and didnt find any relevant post about it, hence why i posted about it.

 

But maybe, if there are problem areas etc, perhaps a setting in the config file would be helpfull to set a max.

That way people who dont have a problem can get more overview if they want to, until the problems get solved..

[The_Piper]

Forget it.

 

I was playing with the zoom level once and you cant increase it a single step. Peoples/creatures appear/disappear out of the sudden and the game looks really ugly.

 

Piper

[ttlanhil]

But maybe, if there are problem areas etc, perhaps a setting in the config file would be helpfull to set a max.

That way people who dont have a problem can get more overview if they want to, until the problems get solved..

it's not all that simple to fix, though, and it can look pretty ugly (try out my modded client to see what it can be like, in siggy)

even if that were fixed, there's a set range where people/animals are sent from the server. if you can see that far, it looks odd to see people dis/appear

plus there's more than the technical issues... there's also the design issues. like, are you meant to only be able to see a short distance?

[algunar]

yeah short distances are rubbish. you should be able to scroll around the map around where you're standing maybe, to see things around you, but the zoom stays the same. our 'view' is too short at the moment.

[Vanyel]

Why don't you play around with perspective? It might make your sight range much larger. Sure it requires good gfx and cpu, but it's worth.

Zooming out really looks nasty. Names are getting enourmous big. The computer is working like old 286. Just try to tweak what you have. Perspective is the way.

[bkc56]

Why don't you play around with perspective?

 

I don't understand the difference between adjusting the perspective and being zoomed way out. I've played with my perspective some and I can get animals to suddenly appear/vanish some distance out just the same as if you're zoomed to far out. So why is that a big major "can't allow it" problem for zoom but not for perspective?

 

For me I simply understand that that I can't see everything that may be some distance out. But it's still farther than I can see with simply zooming.

[TAWoody]

Isn't the 10 point perk related to this? Doesn't it let you zoom out more than normal? Or, if I'm wrong, what does that perk do?

[Aislinn]

Isn't the 10 point perk related to this? Doesn't it let you zoom out more than normal? Or, if I'm wrong, what does that perk do?

No, that is shared vision. You will be able to see what other guildies see who also have that same perk, even if you aren't right there next to them.

[kl4Uz]

Forget it.

 

I was playing with the zoom level once and you cant increase it a single step. Peoples/creatures appear/disappear out of the sudden and the game looks really ugly.

 

Piper

 

that's not entirely true. There are minor graphic problems but not many and mainly with the man not with the actors. You can zoom out pretty far until the actors disappear, but map objects disappear quite soon.

[The_Piper]

You can zoom out pretty far until the actors disappear, but map objects disappear quite soon.

 

Exactly, and thats what i meant. it only looks crappy.

 

Piper

[Sistema]

Having the zoom level increased will bring more negative conclusions than positive ones.

 

Not only does it ruin the graphics (rendering/performance/flickering), it also ruins the concept of some maps, as some of them were designed to be able to see only a specific extent of the surroundings.

It's not only the maps; the models were also designed according to a specific scale. I mean, try attacking a wood sprite when you're two times as zoomed out from the limit.

 

And I'm pretty sure this was talked about many times before.

 

So my answer will be a big: No.

 

Thanks.

- Sistema.

[Aislinn]

It has come up often, Roja HATES the zoom because it ruins the look of so many things, so I imagine it's not going to happen.

[Samanex]

I have an oldie graphics card and my FPS in EL is commonly under 10. If I increase perspective or zoom out, the FPS gets down to FPMinutes!

There are times when exploring a quiet map where I stand still and use perspective to give me a panorama of the area that affects the map in my head.... Otherwise, the game is more comfortable without too much going on in my view.

 

Too much zoom, detail, special effects... and I'm a goner!

[petersohn]

It's not only the maps; the models were also designed according to a specific scale. I mean, try attacking a wood sprite when you're two times as zoomed out from the limit.

OK, try attacking a wood sprite or a rabbit with the current max zoom level. That's also not easy.

[TriMoon]

I think some ppl are missing the issue here....

It was simple a request for optional more zooming, meaning:

If YOU dont want that much zoom-out for whatever reason then dont use it, but pls dont stick it up the @#$% of ppl who would like/can have more zoom from their hardware.

 

Its simply a matter of giving ppl the option for more zoom when they like to.

 

And yes i've experienced some issues with the zoom since i posted like clicking just beside+behind a tree and seeing your click getting processed as if you clicked infront, making your char move the wrong way.

very irritating but....not as much as the unability to zoom out more (so i can click further)

 

ahhh well, server has crashed atm so who knows what will happen...

 

*edit*

PS: The issue of mobiles disapearing after a certain distance being controlled by the server without negotating with the client is also a design flaw IMHO...

Edited April 15, 2006 by TriMoonâ„¢

[Torg]

very irritating but....not as much as the unability to zoom out more (so i can click further)

Err... you can only click out about 3/4 of the regular zoom. Extending the zoom just means you can see more, not click more.

 

PS: The issue of mobiles disapearing after a certain distance being controlled by the server without negotating with the client is also a design flaw IMHO...

Errrr, its not. The client can specify the distance at which objects disappear. Have a look under Adanced Video, at the option "Near Plane Distance".

[Aislinn]

Its simply a matter of giving ppl the option for more zoom when they like to.

Well no it isn't. If the game creator/artist doesn't want people seeing everything looking crappy due to whatever limitations the client/server might have, it's her decision. I can't say I blame her. I'd like more zoom too but understand why we don't have it, or the option to have it or not. This has come up before, and Roja has very clearly stated her opinion on it. *shrugs*

 

Now if you would like to offer your services to fix these "design flaws", I'm sure your help would be greatly appreciated

[ttlanhil]

If YOU dont want that much zoom-out for whatever reason then dont use it, but pls dont stick it up the @#$% of ppl who would like/can have more zoom from their hardware.

and when people do use it, and it looks ugly/runs really slow, and someone besides the person who set it (either an over-the-shoulder watcher, or someone sharing a windows computer) sees it and thinks that the people who made the graphics/engine are really poor...

 

plus, of course, the fairness issue. you want it because it would be an advantage, but what about the people whos computers aren't up to the task? it's more fair to set a certain limit (and as long as you have a limit, people will ask for it to go up, so I won't listen to anything like "no, only up to X and we'll be happy")

And yes i've experienced some issues with the zoom since i posted like clicking just beside+behind a tree and seeing your click getting processed as if you clicked infront, making your char move the wrong way.

very irritating but....not as much as the unability to zoom out more (so i can click further)

first off, the tree 'grabbing' the click is't zoom related, that's something else. also, you can't actually click much further. there's only so far you can click away and have it work (when clicking the map, the client actually cuts it up into sections the server will be happy with)

PS: The issue of mobiles disapearing after a certain distance being controlled by the server without negotating with the client is also a design flaw IMHO...

I'd agree that it could be done closer, except that'd require the client to continually update the server on camera angle, pan, and perspective, and have the server check the heightmapping... that just won't happen.

and as for making it further out? no way, there are already ways to detect people at a distance, there's just too much knowledge, and hence little suprise

 

 

PS: The issue of mobiles disapearing after a certain distance being controlled by the server without negotating with the client is also a design flaw IMHO...

Errrr, its not. The client can specify the distance at which objects disappear. Have a look under Adanced Video, at the option "Near Plane Distance".

actually, actors (NPCs, players, animals, and monsters) are not known to the client accross the entire map, they are added/removed from what the client knows by the server based on (2d) distance. it's currently a fair bit further than you can get with any current pan/zoom level, but in a very high perspective level you can see them pop in and out

fixing that, of course, isn't so difficult, just have a gentle graded fog, so that the distance they show up is rather blurred (with topped out perspective and no good distance clipping, you may be able to see whitestone city from lakeside(at 1-2 FPS ), realism will agree with the decision to limit how far people can see)

 

fixing the other glitches, like flickering walls/floors, is not easy... that happens because there's only a very small vertical distance between different 'floor' elements in the map (otherwise you'd be able to see them stack up with a low camera pitch), and the further you get from it (zoomed out) the harder it is to get the right one all of the time

 

and of course as you have more models to render (houses aren't too bad, they're just boxes, actors are far worse with all the round bits), the performance is going to drop

[TriMoon]

*** Long post alert! ***

 

If YOU dont want that much zoom-out for whatever reason then dont use it, but pls dont stick it up the @#$% of ppl who would like/can have more zoom from their hardware.

and when people do use it, and it looks ugly/runs really slow, and someone besides the person who set it (either an over-the-shoulder watcher, or someone sharing a windows computer) sees it and thinks that the people who made the graphics/engine are really poor...

Opinions about the graphics quality are just that "opinions" and you will never get rid of opinions of ppl, you can only improve things if the opinions have some truth that can be improved...

 

plus, of course, the fairness issue. you want it because it would be an advantage, but what about the people whos computers aren't up to the task? it's more fair to set a certain limit (and as long as you have a limit, people will ask for it to go up, so I won't listen to anything like "no, only up to X and we'll be happy")

I dont want it because it will give me an "advantage", i want it because it will improve the gameing experience. Right now i have the feeling of looking at my toes with this game, its just too closeup...

Most of the time im running around to find a monster to kill or a specific flower to harvest, which would be easier if i could see more of my surroundings.

 

You make a realy funny argument-point saying you wont listen to anything sounding like "no, only up to X and we'll be happy", because you know thats the only posibility in any game engine....

Its like saying: "i wont be happy even if i were able to see all maps from everywhere all the time, cause i want tobe able to see the google servers also and beyond..."

So to make it clear: I want the limit tobe increased NOT removed

 

And yes i've experienced some issues with the zoom since i posted like clicking just beside+behind a tree and seeing your click getting processed as if you clicked infront, making your char move the wrong way.

very irritating but....not as much as the unability to zoom out more (so i can click further)

first off, the tree 'grabbing' the click is't zoom related, that's something else. also, you can't actually click much further. there's only so far you can click away and have it work (when clicking the map, the client actually cuts it up into sections the server will be happy with)

Ok i didnt know that it was handled that way, but i realy ment clicking further behind the tree so it would not be proccessed as clicking the cliping area of the tree...

You need more zoom to actualy click behind the tree's clipping area....

 

PS: The issue of mobiles disapearing after a certain distance being controlled by the server without negotating with the client is also a design flaw IMHO...

I'd agree that it could be done closer, except that'd require the client to continually update the server on camera angle, pan, and perspective, and have the server check the heightmapping... that just won't happen.

and as for making it further out? no way, there are already ways to detect people at a distance, there's just too much knowledge, and hence little suprise

Uhmm the server should only need tobe updated on the players position the client should do the rest.

The only thing needed on server side is processing the "view distance" of the client.

That way the server can add/remove mobiles accoarding to it and the client has to check its view angle heightmaps etc to determine if it actualy should or should not render (parts of) the mobile.

PS: As im fairly new to the game i dont know what you mean by detecting ppl at a distance being posible already. (read-as: it was never my intention to have advantages in PvP-battle)

 

PS: The issue of mobiles disapearing after a certain distance being controlled by the server without negotating with the client is also a design flaw IMHO...

Errrr, its not. The client can specify the distance at which objects disappear. Have a look under Adanced Video, at the option "Near Plane Distance".

actually, actors (NPCs, players, animals, and monsters) are not known to the client accross the entire map, they are added/removed from what the client knows by the server based on (2d) distance. it's currently a fair bit further than you can get with any current pan/zoom level, but in a very high perspective level you can see them pop in and out fixing that, of course, isn't so difficult, just have a gentle graded fog, so that the distance they show up is rather blurred (with topped out perspective and no good distance clipping, you may be able to see whitestone city from lakeside(at 1-2 FPS ), realism will agree with the decision to limit how far people can see)

1st: I didnt know it was already done on 2D-Distance (see above), but im glad it is.

I can see mobiles popin/out while the static textures stay which are even further...

I got "isometric = 0", "perspective = 0.45" and "near_plane = 45" as settings atm.

The "weirdness" comes from seeing static objects while mobiles dissapear...

If the "design flaw" i mentioned is caused by 'the server not checking the clients "near_plane" setting' then that would be rather simple to fix right?

And having the server clip the clients "near_plane" by issueing a feedback would also fix things the other way around...

[ttlanhil]

Opinions about the graphics quality are just that "opinions" and you will never get rid of opinions of ppl, you can only improve things if the opinions have some truth that can be improved...

okay, grab the experimental client I made (check my siggy), load it up, go to a city, and zoom a fair distance out. it will be ugly, and once you experience it, you'll likely agree (and yes, it's legal, since that client is locked to the test server)

I dont want it because it will give me an "advantage", i want it because it will improve the gameing experience. Right now i have the feeling of looking at my toes with this game, its just too closeup...

Most of the time im running around to find a monster to kill or a specific flower to harvest, which would be easier if i could see more of my surroundings.

easier = advantage

So to make it clear: I want the limit tobe increased NOT removed

yes, but do you get my point? what if it's increased so you can zoom out another... uhm... 2 keytaps (hard to quantify it without getting into the code ). that'd please people for now, but later they'd want a bit more. plus there's precident that we did it now

Ok i didnt know that it was handled that way, but i realy ment clicking further behind the tree so it would not be proccessed as clicking the cliping area of the tree...

there were some efforts made in that regard, it's more likely to go 'through' the leaves and such. the trunk itself will get you towards the base of the tree, still

You need more zoom to actualy click behind the tree's clipping area....

no you don't. in fact, further zoomed out means more trees to accidentally click on. it's still a matter of clicking where you want to go on the ground, and avoiding clicking anything else

 

I'd agree that it could be done closer, except that'd require the client to continually update the server on camera angle, pan, and perspective, and have the server check the heightmapping... that just won't happen.

and as for making it further out? no way, there are already ways to detect people at a distance, there's just too much knowledge, and hence little suprise

Uhmm the server should only need tobe updated on the players position the client should do the rest.

The only thing needed on server side is processing the "view distance" of the client.

up until the perspective option, it managed this with a set distance. perspective has allowed people to see a lot further, and to keep track of actors further out means more traffic (which isn't much to you, but on server bandwidth costs, each byte counts), more maths, more memory use, etc

PS: As im fairly new to the game i dont know what you mean by detecting ppl at a distance being posible already. (read-as: it was never my intention to have advantages in PvP-battle)

one of the features worked on semi-recently was a mini-map, using a small part of a map, and overlaying dots for all of the actors around. that will work up to a certain radius, in all directions, because the client knows where they all are. plus when you're in close, there's more chance something or someone can rush up to you and attack before you get away... which can be annoying, but keeps you on your toes

 

I can see mobiles popin/out while the static textures stay which are even further...

I got "isometric = 0", "perspective = 0.45" and "near_plane = 45" as settings atm.

The "weirdness" comes from seeing static objects while mobiles dissapear...

because the client only knows about actors the server tells it about, hence only within that radius. the static stuff is all in the map file itself, which the client has all of (hence theoretically being able to see from lakeside to WSC)

If the "design flaw" i mentioned is caused by 'the server not checking the clients "near_plane" setting' then that would be rather simple to fix right?

And having the server clip the clients "near_plane" by issueing a feedback would also fix things the other way around...

the clipping is done to static objects, not the actors

[TriMoon]

Opinions about the graphics quality are just that "opinions" and you will never get rid of opinions of ppl, you can only improve things if the opinions have some truth that can be improved...

okay, grab the experimental client I made (check my siggy), load it up, go to a city, and zoom a fair distance out. it will be ugly, and once you experience it, you'll likely agree (and yes, it's legal, since that client is locked to the test server)

Okay i fetched your versions and ran em.

And i must admit, I LIKED what i saw

Although i only ran it for a few seconds as i wanted to see the zoom-out effect, and my view distance was still set to short so npc's were only shown close to me

Anyway the mere option satisfied me to vote for a "yes go for it"

Edited April 15, 2006 by TriMoonâ„¢

[ttlanhil]

Although i only ran it for a few seconds as i wanted to see the zoom-out effect, and my view distance was still set to short so npc's were only shown close to me

sigh. so you didn't even bther going to look at the graphics problems, which I was trying to get you to see?

[Aislinn]

Anyway the mere option satisfied me to vote for a "yes go for it"

Hmmm I don't recall it being up for a vote....