Trade bot owners : Lets work together to rescue the market.

[the_antiroot]

There have been no shortage of threads about the state of the market, and suggestions on how to bring the economy back to life, however I firmly believe that if the majority of trade bot owners work together than we can make a big difference.

 

Now first, let me make it clear Im posting as a player and a trade bot administrator, not a moderator.

 

What I suggest is that we form some form of unofficial council an set more realistic max/min prices for items.

 

When one bot starts selling something at a unfeasably low price, others quickly follow suit, and its not long before that item is devalued in regular player to player sales, once more contributing to the decline of the EL market.

 

Now first think I expect is that folks will say, but not all bot owners will be willing to join in on this. What can I say, that is true, However we can maintain a list of bots that follow the pricing regulatoins, and I believe there are enough players committed to saving the market who woul limit themselves to using the listed bots to significantly improve the state of the market. Guilds may even make rules only to use such bots.

 

Next you will probably ask who will set the prices. I believe that can only be done by the entire group of the tradebot owners/admins working together.

 

Now the next step :

 

This is a young idea, and your feedback is the key to its development, Firstly do you like the idea in principal? How do you think it would be best organised?

 

Now I have put forward only the loosest outline of the concept here, and there may be better ways to implement it, so please give your own thoughts on the matter and know any suggestions or constructive criticisem are very welcome.

(also note that ANY flaming or offtopicing in this forum will be mercilessly deleted, we are here to try to work towards a solution, or at least a partial solution for the current state of the market)

[Mr.Mind]

Firstly do you like the idea in principal? How do you think it would be best organised?

1. I do not like the idea of forcing players to pay more simply because certain bots are "council sponsored". It completely undermines the ideology of a free market.

 

2. It is not possible to set a standard with bot prices, because players will continue to undercut each other without the assistance of bots. The only thing that bot undercutting does is accelerate the price dropping. Raising bot prices WILL NOT solve the issue, as you are suggesting here.

 

3. Even if this can be organized, I can tell you with complete certainty that not every bot owner will enter into the council. Every bot owner but one could enter into it, and the one who doesn't would make loads of money off of the guildless people who aren't restricted to the higher priced bots.

 

It isn't a bad idea in theory, but it won't work, and it's unethical (imo). However, I'm not opposed to this new system, because if it is created, I won't join - I'd rather make money.

[Torg]

It isn't a bad idea in theory, but it won't work, and it's unethical (imo). However, I'm not opposed to this new system, because if it is created, I won't join - I'd rather make money.

Maybe you'd like ttlanhil's suggestion of removing trade bots completely??

[SplargaMan]

Whoever said that prices falling was a bad thing. You could consider it rather as the gold coin becoming more valuable. If the $16 in my pocket was worth more every month, I would be ecstatic!

The reason prices are dropping is because the demand for items is relatively low compared to the supply. If you want stuff to cost more, go out, fight stuff, use up the items like no tomorrow, then buy more. If you think prices are "unfeasibly low", why are you even bothering to produce and sell them?

 

As for removing trade bots altogether. Well let's suppose one doesn't have access to the market 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Let's suppose this person still wants to sell as many goods as before, since that's how much they can manufacture. What should they do? Hmmm.....

Also, If trade bots were removed from the game, it would only be fair for those who paid to get their money back.

Edited March 17, 2006 by SplargaMan

[the_antiroot]

1. I do not like the idea of forcing players to pay more simply because certain bots are "council sponsored". It completely undermines the ideology of a free market.

Players are not being forced, they will always have the choice, however those players who wish to see the market return at least partially to its former glory will have an avenue to help this.

The free market you speak of has lead to its current state, and this is a perfect example of how we can try to plan the market economy to lead it out of this slump, a tactic many nations have used in the past.

 

2. It is not possible to set a standard with bot prices, because players will continue to undercut each other without the assistance of bots. The only thing that bot undercutting does is accelerate the price dropping. Raising bot prices WILL NOT solve the issue, as you are suggesting here.

I have to disagree, bots lead the player prices down, and with a stabalised price setting on bots, in a sort period of time folks will realise they can sell for a higher price, and who wouldnt take a increased (often increased from breakeaven) profit margin.

 

 

3. Even if this can be organized, I can tell you with complete certainty that not every bot owner will enter into the council. Every bot owner but one could enter into it, and the one who doesn't would make loads of money off of the guildless people who aren't restricted to the higher priced bots.

Youve found your niche. But one bot wont undermine the more global effects.

 

It isn't a bad idea in theory, but it won't work, and it's unethical (imo). However, I'm not opposed to this new system, because if it is created, I won't join - I'd rather make money.

No disrespect, but I didnt expect you to join, however each individual gets to make their own choice. This is a free market enonmy, and only those who wish to need to participate in a "fair trade" system.

[TirunCollimdus]

I have to agree that this is not an acceptable idea. Price fixing does nothing to fix an economy because it is like being a pharmaceutical company that buys off doctors to push pills that relieve symptoms instead of curing ailments. It makes you part of the problem instead of part of the solution. The real problem with the market is that no one wants to spend their money. I personally train with my cuisses and greaves on at all times. If they break I try to repair them and if that fails I replace them. As mentioned if everyone did this there would be no problem with the prices because the demand would be far greater and market would function much better.

 

This still is not the answer however to the economic woes of Eternal Lands. The problem with the market is that emu is limited and that means that objects being sold have to be extremely useful to be worth carrying at all. The inherent value of many items means you carry and use as few as possible at all times. Increasing emu and increasing the weight of harvestables while keeping the weight of usable items the same is a possible part of the answer. Another part is to actually have items the persons will buy and use on a regular basis because they have effects that truly make a difference in the game. Items added to the game that are temporary in nature but have very strong effects that can be manufactured is the best way to fix the economy. If you have a large enough variety of items that can be made and they are worth being purchase then you have a thriving economy. My examples of this would be items that give temporary pick points, give changes to stats that affect cross attributes, give abilities that require skills(stones that cast spells, items that summon), give temporary perks instead of pick points, and give temporary but strong level boosts.

 

Yes I understand that some of these things are easier to do than others but some are in the works already and providing value that your customers are willing to part with their money for is the ONLY way to really fix the economy. Price fixing hurts the consumer and eventually winds up needing quota production from the makers of items too. You cannot completely control an economy or you find out you have no economy at all. Just a group of people telling others what they can and cannot with their money and a trip to funruiner.com

 

TirunCollimdus Supply and demand are fundamental, immutable parts of successuful economies. Ask the real world communists if you do not believe me. Oh. Are there any left?

Edited March 17, 2006 by TirunCollimdus

[SplargaMan]

I have to disagree, bots lead the player prices down, and with a stabalised price setting on bots, in a sort period of time folks will realise they can sell for a higher price, and who wouldnt take a increased (often increased from breakeaven) profit margin.

 

So you expect the average person would prefer to deal with another person instead of a bot who sells cheaper. Wait for them at storage while they dawdle around killing foxes, hope they speak the same language, and speak it properly, and deal with the inevitable person who feels it is necessary to arrange a deal and barter afterwards.

 

How many people do you know like this?

 

(Edit) My apologies, I misread what the_antiroot typed. Thanks ttlanhil for pointing this out to me.

Edited March 19, 2006 by SplargaMan

[ttlanhil]

Maybe you'd like ttlanhil's suggestion of removing trade bots completely??

err... that's kinda out of context, since that's only a part of what I said, and it won't solve this:

2. It is not possible to set a standard with bot prices, because players will continue to undercut each other without the assistance of bots. The only thing that bot undercutting does is accelerate the price dropping. Raising bot prices WILL NOT solve the issue, as you are suggesting here.

even though it's, IMO, wrong... because players are no competely fairly, having to spend the time to buy/sell themselves, and while it's not a complete solution, it would be a far better situation

 

to get the right idea about what I said, check this

 

 

 

 

 

I have to agree that this is not an acceptable idea.?

kay, maybe we need punishments for people who abuse font & size... you may, if there's a good reason, use them to highlight a point. do not, ever, no matter what, use it for your entire post

maybe once you fix it, it'll be readable and people will respond to what you said

 

So you expect the average person would prefer to deal with another person instead of a bot who sells cheaper. Wait for them at storage while they dawdle around killing foxes, hope to God they speak the same language, and speak it properly, and deal with the inevitable person who feels it is necessary to arrange a deal and barter afterwards.

 

How many people do you know like this?

erm. check the part that I bolded. then read what the whole thread is about

[Torg]

As for removing trade bots altogether. Well let's suppose one doesn't have access to the market 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Let's suppose this person still wants to sell as many goods as before, since that's how much they can manufacture. What should they do? Hmmm.....

Yeah, its worth having a look at my comments in the relevant thread. That was exactly my position.

 

So you expect the average person would prefer to deal with another person instead of a bot who sells cheaper. Wait for them at storage while they dawdle around killing foxes, hope to God they speak the same language, and speak it properly, and deal with the inevitable person who feels it is necessary to arrange a deal and barter afterwards.

 

How many people do you know like this?

I personally refuse to use bots, and I know several others that are the same. Any trading that I do is done face to face (both buying and more importantly selling)

 

Maybe you'd like ttlanhil's suggestion of removing trade bots completely??

err... that's kinda out of context, since that's only a part of what I said, and it won't solve this:

Yeah, sorry about this. I was just stirring with that comment as its obvious MrMind is using his bot to make as much money as he can with as little effort as possible. (Which is ok, people are allowed to do that).

[Pyewacket]

I think that if one or two bots start buying, for instance, bp cloaks for 3k and selling them for 5k, (whilst at first the bot owners would be making a loss on the bp cloaks that the bots buy in), within a very short space of time all bot owners will either raise their prices to something near or they will end up losing their trade on that particular item. Meantime, the constant price adverts from the bots on market will lead players to decide to no longer sell these cloaks at the current cut price that they sell at, leading to actual inflation on an item.

 

Mrmind, you claim you wish to make money. Would you rather try that solo as you claim, or be forced to do it as a result of being left behind by bot owners taking a deliberate step to improve the market (as per the example above) ??

 

If Richery sold off all its items at a low price, and the bots that are participants in this scheme bought them all, then had them for sale at a greater profit margin than your own, would you REALLY pass up that extra profit? Is THAT what you refer to as being a SMART PLAYER?

 

I would advise you take the time to consider the power you already have in your hands to effect positive change and whether you really desire to turn down the opportunity to use that power, both for the benefit of the market itself and for the benefit of your guild as a whole.

 

I thoroughly approve of this whole idea as not only benefitting the market but also taking the brunt of the complaints from overworked developers who really dont need to be constantly bugged and harrassed about a player controlled market going downhill, and doing something effective to combat the deflation which is, I am sure, even having an effect on MrMinds pockets too.

 

So...the way I see things as per this thread, its clear that those that are willing to help this course of action get to determine a way forward for the economy, and those that dont participate will simply end up having to readjust their prices anyway as the plans come into eventual effect.

 

I know which side of the line "I" would rather stand on, if I were a bot owner....

 

- PYE

[milesp]

While, there is a lot of opposition to this idea, I think maybe it could be explored some. As one of the managing players of Adarah I've watched what bots can do to the market. Adarah on her own in the past altered the going rate of Fire Essences(rasied the price by 2-3gc). I don't think there can be a council that just says bots will sell x items at x amount. However bots do have the ability to nudge the market. A council of bot owners would be a positive step in my opinion.

[jamincollins]

Count me in on the idea. Although I do still think that there need to be other in game changes to fully correct the economy.

[Mr.Mind]

The antiroot has finally convinced me that there are people there who are concerned about the market even though it doesn't affect them. I know there are many people who believe I enjoy the market problem, but I would like to say that I merely exploit it, and I do not necessarily enjoy it. Since that is the case, I am willing to give my input. I put it in an outlined form so no one would get confused, and there is no reason to go into detail on one issue as this is a very broad problem.

 

Problem: Low and unstable market prices

 

Causes (in no particular order):

The EL store - makes items basically free in the game (efes)

Certain items being better for leveling up

Low demand - everyone already has the best items

High supply - mass production required to level up

Undercutting - people who want to sell their items quickly will lower their price

People who make their own stuff - no buying to raise the price

No price floor set by npcs - no limit to how low most items can be sold

Bots - no one can sell anything higher than bots do

Some items are useless - damage rings, most weapons

No need for use in a variety of items - all the best items can be used by anyone

(I'm sure there are more so please tell me if I missed them)

 

Possible solutions that players can do:

Use bots to set a price floor by buying items (bot owners would lose money)

Have bots sell at the highest market value (hard to get rid of high supply)

Refuse to buy under a certain price (If you really want the item that badly...)

Make a variety of items (slows down leveling, some items don't sell, some items are useless)

Buy EVERYTHING (stops leveling completely except for fighting and summon, extremely expensive)

Give away useless items in a contest (I couldn't resist saying that)

(I know there are more but my brain suddenly stopped working and the focus here is on bots anyway)

 

At the moment there is no perfect solution that players can do by themselves, but there are a few small things that may work in combination (and still not work very well). If there is more to add, I would like to know so that I can edit this post to include everything. No quick fix will work, and every solution so far has overlooked several things. What we really need to do is get every cause of this problem outlined so that the developers are able to find a combination of solutions that work for everyone (or let the players discover the right solutions and then use them). Until the problem can be fixed by the game coding, it is up to the players.

 

This all seems very simple to me, but I can see already that it is not easy.

[Jamol]

The problem is that we have 2 different market here. One is the fixed market that the NPC have. In which they do not buy all items. Two is the free market in which we set the prices with supply and demand. What we need to do is go one way or the other either get rid of the NPC with the fixed prices or set prices. Personly i like the fixed market it is fair to the newbe's and keeps the VET's making GC hand over fist. Then we dont have to worry about mass production and people and keep lvl up.

 

But that is me.

[Learner]

The problem is that we have 2 different market here. One is the fixed market that the NPC have. In which they do not buy all items. Two is the free market in which we set the prices with supply and demand. What we need to do is go one way or the other either get rid of the NPC with the fixed prices or set prices. Personly i like the fixed market it is fair to the newbe's and keeps the VET's making GC hand over fist. Then we dont have to worry about mass production and people and keep lvl up.

 

But that is me.

That is a problem in itself.

[Jamol]

The problem is that we have 2 different market here. One is the fixed market that the NPC have. In which they do not buy all items. Two is the free market in which we set the prices with supply and demand. What we need to do is go one way or the other either get rid of the NPC with the fixed prices or set prices. Personly i like the fixed market it is fair to the newbe's and keeps the VET's making GC hand over fist. Then we dont have to worry about mass production and people and keep lvl up.

 

But that is me.

That is a problem in itself.

 

Then lets have a market based on your OA lvl. Have a tier system. If we are so worried about people making more GC then other people.

 

I have to agree here with MR. Mind here on this topic.

[Torg]

People who make their own stuff - no buying to raise the price

I personally think that this is probably the most important point here. We need to create demand, and I think that is best done by having high level players buying from lower level. There was also a suggestion elsewhere on the forums to remove manufacturable items from dbs, and have some items that alcs, pots and manus need that are only found in dbs to create some circular movement of money between people with different skill focuses.

[MagpieLee]

I'm a consumer, a poor one at that.

I've been using both NPCs and Bots and Players in all my transactions. More importantly, I have been known to sell off goods at a low price, I don't do this very often, but isn't that what competition is all about?

 

If anyone has trouble selling stuff, then lower the price or offer benefits and incentives. This happens in real life and I don't see why we are looked upon as 'market destroyers' if we follow the same strategy.

In addition, I also welcome people who buy cheaply off me and resell at a higher price, some may say thats not smart, but I think its because I generally hate selling anyway. I'd much rather want to sell to NPCs if they they accepted more items.

 

What exactly is wrong with the market? The idea of a stable market is flawed simply because there is no such thing. International markets skew and sway all the time and as long as there are external forces changing, and new players, it will continue to be that way. The only winner is the consumer, as they'd be able to buy cheaper items.

[Torg]

What exactly is wrong with the market? The idea of a stable market is flawed simply because there is no such thing. International markets skew and sway all the time and as long as there are external forces changing, and new players, it will continue to be that way. The only winner is the consumer, as they'd be able to buy cheaper items.

I think the problem with the market is that you can't make enough money to survive. You shouldn't *need* to harvest flowers or fruit in order to make enough money to buy leather/wine or whatever to make your items. You should be able to break even on your sales.

 

If anyone has trouble selling stuff, then lower the price or offer benefits and incentives. This happens in real life and I don't see why we are looked upon as 'market destroyers' if we follow the same strategy.

In addition, I also welcome people who buy cheaply off me and resell at a higher price, some may say thats not smart, but I think its because I generally hate selling anyway. I'd much rather want to sell to NPCs if they they accepted more items.

This, is what causes the above mentioned problem. If people sold for cost + a little bit, and only scraped off their margins when making things cheaper, unless they want to move old stock, or a bulk amount, then we would be able to have a more "normal" market.

 

I personally think this comes down to the fact that it is too easy for higher level people to gather all their own ingredients for most items (except some pots and manu) thus having no break even point. If higher level people bought their items from those making them a little lower, who buy the ingredients from those who are just starting out, this would build a break even point into the equation.

 

I know this is slightly off topic, but I personally believe the problem isn't so much the bots, but the ease of making items for very little cost.

[ttlanhil]

This happens in real life and

in the real life, there are actual costs involved. for most of the stuff on the market in EL, you can theoretically have a cost price of 0gc (or approaching 0gc, if you allow for one pickaxe per thousand HE, for example)

hence why, while there's a lot of ideas that can come from RL, you can't rely on them working in a game

[MagpieLee]

This happens in real life and

in the real life, there are actual costs involved. for most of the stuff on the market in EL, you can theoretically have a cost price of 0gc (or approaching 0gc, if you allow for one pickaxe per thousand HE, for example)

hence why, while there's a lot of ideas that can come from RL, you can't rely on them working in a game

Yes, ok. But what are you trying to say here?

If anything, having a cost price of 0gc (or approaching 0gc) means that you can sell anything off higher and catch a profit? Personally I don't sell much. Only a few items here and there and those items have been lowered by aggressive pricing decisions (which I have little complaints about). The only problem I see is that NPCs are buying some items off people at not-so-tasty prices and even then they don't buy everything.

[ttlanhil]

Yes, ok. But what are you trying to say here?

IRL, you can't have a cost price approaching zero. people value their time and work more, in general only perform one stage (whereas in EL players will go from the mining to end product themselves), getting cheaper ingredients means a lower quality end product, and less skilled work does the same. none of this is true in EL, so we don't have a soft lower price range.

hence why creating an artificial one, of some sort, could be quite a help (may be more useful to get closer to the RL situation, like for produce to have a level of quality, but EL isn't set up for that to work well)

[MagpieLee]

Yes, ok. I only meant its relation to RL in terms of getting products sold. Retail outlets, stores, e-commerce...they all offer cheaper and cheaper items to get it sold. If one of them stops to say, "oh why are you selling product x for price z? you're destroying the market", another will turn around and say "thats business, get a better marketing strategy". Again, when this happens the consumer wins because of the cheaper items (lets not get started on dumping, regulators and advisory boards shall we? Is only a game).

 

Its only natural for newbies to be poor (maybe not that poor but poor nonetheless), and with experience, comes a wiser head.

Perhaps producing levels of quality would add an interesting variety, but would only add to the complexity to this current market.

 

edit: Currently, this market situation, crafters get it bad...they really do. I'm glad to hear that there may be some steps to ameliorate this situation.

Edited March 21, 2006 by MagpieLee

[Pyewacket]

Judging by the new armour and weapons ranges to come, there are steps in the works for lowering the amount of efe out there too, since I assume most if not all of them will be manuable items.

[selyob]

OK, I'll say it.... u r ALL wrong... here is Y.

 

As long as there are ppl, who can trade with ppl, u cannot control the market. Plain and simple.

 

Do what ever you want with the npc's and bots, makes no difference at all in the long run because ppl can still dump their stuff at lower prices than bots and npcs in a 1 on 1 sale... and they WILL do that undercutting.

 

There is ONLY 1 barrier to the prices going down, and that is the cost to make an item.

 

Currently, HE's bottom in the open market at 6.... Y? Because that is the lowest price they can b made for and sold for without going deeply into loss.

 

The ONLY solution is to make items more rare/harder to come by, i.e. limit harvestability some how.

 

As evidence of this claim I refer u to rost stones. Rarity vs. commonness... it is that simple.

 

Case closed.