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Dugur

Remove PP buying

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I don't have time to right now to reply to all of the slimpick's or infamous' comments, but i would like to say some things:

(1)Most games use an exponential scale to control the "power" of this players, it seems this was the initial EL design;

(2)In EL, at high levels of a/d, you can buy character "power" by buying PP's in a linear (or so) fashion;

(3)the fact you can do (2) in EL at high a/d levels (yes, mixers are overflowed with gc, thats why they always bid high in every auction on the market o.O) makes it very imbalanced.

quite frankly i'd say theres more variation in builds now then when you change it.
This i want to refute right now. Its so completly without any sense. The way it is now is just "try to max" the attributes, so what is the "variation" in it? None?

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read the posts and you'll understand, dont argue if your not willing to read.

i explained it 3 times to you now, need me to draw a picture for you to understand? not trying to flame here, but 3 times should be enough for you to understand.

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(2)In EL, at high levels of a/d, you can buy character "power" by buying PP's in a linear (or so) fashion;

I don't have high a/d and I've bought 2 pp. Please explain what you mean by a linear fashion. If you mean that people tend to earn gc at a constant rate and can therefore buy nexus removal stones and hydro bars at a constant rate, that may be true but it still takes a very long time to get all that gc and hydro. Of course, most players also have other expenses besides bought pp.

quite frankly i'd say theres more variation in builds now then when you change it.
This i want to refute right now. Its so completly without any sense. The way it is now is just "try to max" the attributes, so what is the "variation" in it? None?

It seems logical to me that if pp buying is removed players will still try to make their characters as strong as they can, so what's the difference? Here's a question I don't we've answered yet: just how much stronger have some players become due to pp buying? Has it really made a significant difference?

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not very strong, i dont have any bought pp yet and still have pp buyers in counters multiple times, while being ~7 a/d levels lower then most.

just need a bit of teamwork

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That is not really good idea with removing bought PP's becouse there are much ppls with a lot gc in sto saved to bught pp's. Where will go that gc after we remove the bought pps ?

There will be players with MIllion after million gc in storage and there will be no items for what they to give it, so u will play 1 year, got like 5 mils gc at that time and what u will do ? just watch it in sto.

 

I don't agree with that, i think there must be bought pps

 

Sorry but I don't think the amount of gold coin sitting in storage should have anything to do with hydro/stone PP's being in the game.

 

If you have millions upon millions of gold coin I am sure there are many things you could purchase if that gold coin didn't go toward PP buying.

Yep.

This game has plenty of GC sinks. Take up Ranging, or PK'ing, or whatever.

 

There are lots of games like that, but most of them are first person shooters or real time strategy games.

As i said earlier, from what i've seen most MMORPG's, and certainly most of successful ones, have caps of some kind on character development/strength. There's a good reason for that.

 

It seems logical to me that if pp buying is removed players will still try to make their characters as strong as they can, so what's the difference?

The difference is the upper limit on how strong they can possibly be will be lowered.

 

EDIT:

Also, @Infa

You're an 'old-school' player no? You were there for the glory days of EL that oldbie PK'ers rant on about yes?

There was no pickpoint buying then, and from what we all hear: things were great... so why are you so worried about this now?

 

Also, you picked a small sentence from my post #62 to rebuttal... hows about the rest of the post?

Edited by Korrode

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There are lots of games like that, but most of them are first person shooters or real time strategy games.

As i said earlier, from what i've seen most MMORPG's, and certainly most of successful ones, have caps of some kind on character development/strength. There's a good reason for that.

EL already has caps on attributes and skill levels. Do you suggest that the caps be lowered?

It seems logical to me that if pp buying is removed players will still try to make their characters as strong as they can, so what's the difference?

The difference is the upper limit on how strong they can possibly be will be lowered.

The upper limit won't be lowered at all. The only difference would be that it would take somewhat longer to get stronger. Unless, of course, you mean that players will be able to get more pp than the current oa cap allows, but I don't think anyone has hit that cap nor will hit it for a long time.

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(2)In EL, at high levels of a/d, you can buy character "power" by buying PP's in a linear (or so) fashion;

IPlease explain what you mean by a linear fashion. If you mean that people tend to earn gc at a constant rate and can therefore buy nexus removal stones and hydro bars at a constant rate, that may be true

Its simple. In most games, its get harder to get even more powerful once you get a power increase. This is not true in high level fighting in EL. You get more powerful, you can get more drops (from spawn/instances), then you can use that drops to be even more powerful, etc. And since the way to get more powerful is constant, you get a linear increasing in power, at a constant rate.

 

Its obviously imbalanced. It gets increasingly hard to be smart/fast/strong as more smart/fast/strong you are. At least it should be this way. If that was required to use 50 bars for 1 nex, than 60 bars for the second, etc, i would not complain much. The way it is now, its just too imbalanced.

quite frankly i'd say theres more variation in builds now then when you change it.
This i want to refute right now. Its so completly without any sense. The way it is now is just "try to max" the attributes, so what is the "variation" in it? None?

It seems logical to me that if pp buying is removed players will still try to make their characters as strong as they can, so what's the difference?

The difference is that they would use their brains when building their char, and another difference is as stated above, not an "increasingly" easier time since the game would behave as it was designed to behave, when you get stronger, it gets harder to get even more strong.
Here's a question I don't we've answered yet: just how much stronger have some players become due to pp buying? Has it really made a significant difference?
They get strong to a point that a player on top 10 of attack can hit the pp buyer guy for like 8 of damage using an orc slayer. Or to the point that they can get multied by yetis/achims in invasions and win.
The upper limit won't be lowered at all. The only difference would be that it would take somewhat longer to get stronger.
Then you would have a "soft" cap, another significant design feature of the game. Yes, you still could be stronger, but it would be diminishing returns, people would at some point just enjoy the game instead of trying to hoard gc to bid for more PPs. Edited by Lorck

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(2)In EL, at high levels of a/d, you can buy character "power" by buying PP's in a linear (or so) fashion;

This is definitely an issue with PP buying as it currently stands. If there were a way to increase the number of hydro bars (or other cost) for a successive "bought" pickpoint, this would implement a built-in soft cap for pickpoint buying; one which is more in line with the 5% extra exp per level (past level 89) we have now for the skills. If each successive bought pickpoint required more hydro bars, eventually each ebul pickpoint buyer would either find a breaking point, or simply channel out even more gc worth of hydro bars. Another option could be e.g. 50 hydro plus some gc per additional nexus bought from the npc. I don't know how easy it would be to program, but if the NPC (I forget the name) charged 50 hydro + 50k additional gc per successive bought pickpoint*, eventually this cost would be unbearable, or just an awesome gc sink :confused: .

 

* Edit: I mean it would be 50 hydro for the first bought nexus, 50hydro+50k gc for #2, 50hydro+100kgc for #3, etc.

Edited by asgnny

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(2)In EL, at high levels of a/d, you can buy character "power" by buying PP's in a linear (or so) fashion;

This is definitely an issue with PP buying as it currently stands. If there were a way to increase the number of hydro bars (or other cost) for a successive "bought" pickpoint, this would implement a built-in soft cap for pickpoint buying; one which is more in line with the 5% extra exp per level (past level 89) we have now for the skills. If each successive bought pickpoint required more hydro bars, eventually each ebul pickpoint buyer would either find a breaking point, or simply channel out even more gc worth of hydro bars. Another option could be e.g. 50 hydro plus some gc per additional nexus bought from the npc. I don't know how easy it would be to program, but if the NPC (I forget the name) charged 50 hydro + 50k additional gc per successive bought pickpoint*, eventually this cost would be unbearable, or just an awesome gc sink :confused: .

 

* Edit: I mean it would be 50 hydro for the first bought nexus, 50hydro+50k gc for #2, 50hydro+100kgc for #3, etc.

 

Ok idea in theory, but in reality it would only increase the gap between those who have already bought PP's vs those who intend to.

 

Imo there are only three possible solutions

 

A ) Either leave it how it is, so everyone has the same option to buy PP's in the same way as those before them

 

B ) Totally remove PP buying (which would include those already bought by other players)

 

C ) Remove combat bonses from cross attributes and move them to the corresponding skill

 

All would bring "OMGZ thats sooo unfair" .......... just glad its not my choice to have to make :whistle:

 

Edit: Forgot C ( need more coffee this early in the morning )

Edited by conavar

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C ) Remove combat bonses from cross attributes and move them to the corresponding skill

Don't even need to 'remove them', just decrease the weight of some of them in the combat roll.

 

This is an easy fix in regard to Dexterity and Reaction, as you can simply lower their weight across the board and then no other changes should be needed, including PvE related.

 

It's a little harder for some others, like Toughness... The effect of Defense level on damage absorbtion could be increased, and the effect of Toughness decreased, but unlike with Dex & React, the change would need to be carefully calculated, as if done wrong it could screw up "everything". The same challenge is faced for Might, and then there's all kinds of other issues related to Health and Mana.

 

At least we could start with reducing the weight of Dex & React (or alternatively increasing the weight of Att & Def) in the Hit and Dodge rolls...

 

Still, just removing pp buying is a better solution, imo.

I like the attribute system in general, i like the way we can build our chars differently with it, i just don't like the 'near-never-ending' pickpoints.

Edited by Korrode

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its available to all, 2 ppl can easily kill pp buyers, and no they dont stand a chance getting multied by AC in invasions or summoned ones.. from experience i know that everyone in game dies to getting multied by chims, kgxjeff did, makaveli did, i did, and alot of others too, multiple times even by the same chims.

 

the linear fashion crap is the same in every game, its normal. its like that in WoW aswell, the stronger you get, the better equipment you can have, the more gold it costs, the more you are able to earn, you just need to work for it.

note that last part, you need to work for it. if you dont want to then dont complain at forums how those who do work for it are overpowered, thats selfish

 

whats next? i leveled manu to 9 but then dont want to put in the work others did to make dragon armors, should we screw manuers over cause i cant make them without putting in the work they did in their skill?

 

or how about this, we remove the top 50/100/200 and change it to top 1, and radu will give us all the same stats to share the #1 spot, seems like an easier solution then to bitch about everything others put more work into.

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the linear fashion crap is the same in every game, its normal. its like that in WoW aswell, the stronger you get, the better equipment you can have, the more gold it costs, the more you are able to earn, you just need to work for it.

And now tell me, how long do u need to work for it?

 

Like WoW level cap is 70 right?

They don't have some kind of attribute point you can keep buying after level 70, true?

How long does it take till you have the very best armor in the game in WoW?

 

5+ years?

 

...and remember every year that rolls by, that's another year to that counter...

next year it will be 6 years to 'end game' in EL, the year after 7 years, then 8 years, then 9 years... then finally someone will be 48 all attributes, have no neg perks, every nexus and every positive perk...

...and new PvP oriented players will see EL, go "lol 10 years till end-game?? fuck that", and all EL PK will be is big time oldbies and char buyers, there wont be any new meat, the PvP playerbase will go stagnant.

Edited by Korrode

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Just reset everyones OA, to give the exact amount of PP they have and be done with it.

 

Or, let's take the 'kgxjeff' account:

 

48/48/32+/4/48/48 - 7 Human Nexus

 

There is no fork, Evanesence, Mirror Perk, NMT Perk. And I heard he is adding BP perk also.

 

From buying PPs, now.. That's overpowered, no? Removing the bought PPs, would be one of the best things to happen recently.. Allow people to still buy Nexus with Hydro Bars, but remove the Nexus Stones from the Game, and make the NPC change a nexus, to another nexus, for a price.

 

Simple, and makes those who train, have the highest power in-game, which is how it should be.

Edited by Liquid

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its available to all
This does not make *ANY* sense. Imagine a spell that instakill. Its not overpowered, since everyone can cast it (or build a char to cast it). If its available to all, in *ANY* way it means it is not overpowered.
the linear fashion crap is the same in every game, its normal. its like that in WoW aswell, the stronger you get, the better equipment you can have, the more gold it costs, the more you are able to earn, you just need to work for it.
No, WOW has hard caps, at level 70, I don't know of a single rpg game where your attributes or levels scale linearly, and it seems you don't know either. I will make here the same challenge i did to you on the ch6: just name ONE at least half-succesful game (excluding EL) where your attributes or stats goes up in a linear way, just name one and i drop out of the discussion.

 

The games were designed that way for one reason. EL was designed this way too in the beginning, and people still says that before the "pp buying" fest the game was more balanced.

note that last part, you need to work for it. if you dont want to then dont complain at forums how those who do work for it are overpowered, thats selfish
Name one person in this thread who said the work put on the chars should not be rewarded... why you complain for something people did not even suggested?

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the linear fashion crap is the same in every game, its normal. its like that in WoW aswell, the stronger you get, the better equipment you can have, the more gold it costs, the more you are able to earn, you just need to work for it.

And now tell me, how long do u need to work for it?

 

Like WoW level cap is 70 right?

They don't have some kind of attribute point you can keep buying after level 70, true?

How long does it take till you have the very best armor in the game in WoW?

 

5+ years?

 

...and remember every year that rolls by, that's another year to that counter...

next year it will be 6 years to 'end game' in EL, the year after 7 years, then 8 years, then 9 years... then finally someone will be 48 all attributes, have no neg perks, every nexus and every positive perk...

...and new PvP oriented players will see EL, go "lol 10 years till end-game?? fuck that", and all EL PK will be is big time oldbies and char buyers, there wont be any new meat, the PvP playerbase will go stagnant.

 

there it takes about a year with some skills, but they increase exp gained for lower levels everytime caps rise, easier to reach end-game for new players, while not harming the older players. sounds like the best solution.

going by the chat on ch6 you seem to want variation in builds, and if you want more vaious builds, then remove caps. before caps there were more various builds then there are now.

 

[oldie rant] at end game it used to be either everything phys, or loads of coord and a bit of phys for hp, or a combination of both with still a bit more coord, or combo of reasoning/will and hardly p/c to get more exp. no limits on attr? posibilities are limitless then

before caps there hardly were fights which were determined by who got the most Sr/He in inv, when there were atleast you were hitting the eachother much more then you do now. more action in a fight is good right? [/oldie rant]

 

now everyone goes for the same build, mostly because its needed for training. full phys/coord, get mostly reas to hit, bit of instinct, and some vit for mana.

that or a mage char.

theres no variation in that, maybe people have like 4pp difference in a attribute, but thats not making any difference.

when you add 4 in any random attribute you dont notice its effect much, know that from experience and other people. the only thing you would notice is the 10 extra hp or 8 extra mana, not whether you hit or dodge more.

if you really, really want more variation in builds, remove caps. without caps there is more possible, makes sense right?

 

if anything, pp buying lowers time to get to end-game, dont have to worry about catching up in oa with others.

if you dont it to take so long to get to end-game then lower a/d caps to 160, but thats not the discussion, while it would make alot more sense

 

Simple, and makes those who train, have the highest power in-game, which is how it should be.

 

which is how it is? but cause it is like that, some people want it to change ;)

they train and get gc to buy those pp's, hence they have the highest power, but most want that to change cause they have the highest power. completely makes no sense.

besides if only nexus can be bought then there would be something else to complain about "omg they can make their own summon stones, or make their own mines"

 

From buying PPs, now.. That's overpowered, no?

 

no, Kgxjeff in counters 3 times, and Anthony twice (same char, different name) i have them more times, but lost counters multiple times cause of namechanges.

besides them, Force, Talloth, ATA, Ulubatli

even though they worked hard to get the highest power, i can still beat them. sure i cant beat them 1on1, but thats the point of being highest power cause of harder work

and thats where friends kick in, if you cant beat someone 1on1 you need to ask for help, it doesnt take much, maybe a few summons and its done.

that or put in just as much work as the other did.

 

aslong as it isnt impossible to beat a pp buyer, or extremely hard, its not overpowered.

 

edit: Lorck, we can act all childish and be like "u dont make sense" "no u dont make sense" but that wont do any good.

but seriously, if you want to argue, then atleast have valid points and arguements, a spell which insta kills someone isnt the same as someone who needs about 8 hits to kill you if you dont restore.

notice the difference? you can survive a pp buyer, i proved multiple times they can be beaten by a lower a/d with no bought pp, conclusion: they arent overpowered.

yes it takes a small amount of teamwork, thats how it is with everything, if something is stronger then use teamwork or strategy to beat it. you cant expect to beat someone 1on1 who put in 10 times the amount of work in a char then you did.

thats why the spell would be overpowered cause you cant do anything about it, you can do something against a pp buyer.

 

and still you keep going on about that linearly crap, they can be beaten, you can use it too, EL is unique just cause another game doesnt have it doesnt make it wrong.

another game doesnt have a tree in kf, should we remove it?

 

Name one person in this thread who said the work put on the chars should not be rewarded... why you complain for something people did not even suggested?

everyone in favour of this idea, the pp buyers worked extremely hard for their PP and you want to remove that. no rewards involved. you want to screw them cause they put in more hard work then others, while they arent even that overpowered.

taking away the rewards they got for their hard work equals not being rewarded for hard work.

 

I'll continue argueing with you if you come up with valid arguements and dont keep changing your stance on things.

Edited by Infamous

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everyone in favour of this idea, the pp buyers worked extremely hard for their PP and you want to remove that. no rewards involved. you want to screw them cause they put in more hard work then others, while they arent even that overpowered.

taking away the rewards they got for their hard work equals not being rewarded for hard work.

Honestly, WHEN I SAID THAT? Better, can you quote someone saying that, plz? Don't put words in other people's mouths.

 

Btw, in the bolded part you admit it is overpowered.

and still you keep going on about that linearly crap
Because its true. Honestly, just name a computer (or pen & paper) rpg which is at least half succesful that the scale of attributes/levels are not exponential (with the obvious exception of EL).
another game doesnt have a tree in kf, should we remove it?
All dev teams of rpgs should learn from other games' good things and mistakes. One thing that worked in all games and worked well, is the way you get the stats. The only game which has a problem in the way people get their attributes is EL at high levels, guess why.
thats why the spell would be overpowered cause you cant do anything about it, you can do something against a pp buyer.
But everyone can use the spell. If everyone can use it, its fair, right? Its available to all. Its your argument.
but seriously, if you want to argue, then atleast have valid points and arguements, a spell which insta kills someone isnt the same as someone who needs about 8 hits to kill you if you dont restore.
It is similar in one way: everyone can use it, its available to all players, so its not overpowered. The fact that being available to all players DOESN'T make it ANY LESS OVERPOWERED...
proved multiple times they can be beaten by a lower a/d with no bought pp, conclusion: they arent overpowered.
But you said they were overpowered, read above. And the fact you have beaten someone stronger doesn't mean anything, since we don't know the details of how you killed them. If you kill them in a fair fight, 1vs1 or something, i will be interested to watch a fight in NC arena, specially at brave's day.
they train and get gc to buy those pp's, hence they have the highest power
They get the highest power in a totally imbalanced way. I have no problems with people who train to get powerful, but i do have a problem with imbalances. Edited by Lorck

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i explained to you where you said that, maybe not in words. but the statement of wanting to removing pp they worked hard to get says enough that hard work doesnt get rewarded.

 

the bolded part doesnt say anything, honestly.. in your mind they are overpowered, i say they arent as overpowered as you claim they are, where exactly am i agreeing with you?

 

you are right about learning from other games, but this isnt bad, i can beat them, so can others, not bad.

 

the fact is the spell takes away all the fun, can do nothing about it it IS overpowered even though everyone can use it. you cant argue about that, thats not the same as someone you can beat and survive easily against. in no way can you compare those 2. if you can thats impressive, cause that goes against all common sense.

unless you got another arguement that does make sense, im done talking about that spell with you, use common sense

 

they train and get gc to buy the pp, how exactly didnt they train to get the highest power? the pp are gotten from hard work in training after all.

basicly you got no arguement about why they should be removed, saying they are gotten in a imbalanced way doesnt mean anything.

anyone can get them with hard work, imbalanced would be if it was easy for a couple of people, and hard for the rest.

just cause the few who do have alot of bought pp spend $ on it doesnt make it imbalanced, if it was you should take away being able to buy gc, removals and what not for $.

 

im gonna make it really, really easy for you Lorck.

 

should someone, who spend maybe a few months on his char, beat someone who spend 5 or more years on his char?

Edited by Infamous

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Ok, even assuming the end goal is to max out every single attribute you have, there are various ways to approach this even if you are interested in only strict fighter or strict mage or strict summoner. Don't be confused about that.

 

How you place your pickpoints among the various attributes (too many people think only about p/c) along the way is up to you.

 

Of course, this topic is a bit off course by now, isn't it?

 

It seems to me like many of the posts that have been brought up lately have sadly been because someone else has some item or ability and they don't. In this case, the ability to get ahold of a bunch of hydro bars. In another thread, dragon armor. In another case, the ability to zap an opponent to death with magic. In another thread, the ability to summon chims to eat enemies. Folk, we are not ALL little kids here (I know of some players as young as 8). Lets not try to throw away the toys because we can't play with them, ok?

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i explained to you where you said that, maybe not in words. but the statement of wanting to removing pp they worked hard to get says enough that hard work doesnt get rewarded.
I never said rewarded without a compensation. And i think its way too hard to remove the pickpoints people already have. What i think it should be is: either stop or slow down (read asgnny's suggestion) the buying of new pickpoints.
the bolded part doesnt say anything, honestly.. in your mind they are overpowered, i say they arent as overpowered as you claim they are, where exactly am i agreeing with you?
You say once they are overpowered a bit, then you said that they are not overpowered at all
you are right about learning from other games, but this isnt bad, i can beat them, so can others, not bad.
You just don't say the details. Of course if you gang them up or use summoned chims, but that i would not call "easy" kill, like you say. I still want to see you pwning kgxjeff easily, like you said many times you do.
the fact is the spell takes away all the fun, can do nothing about it it IS overpowered even though everyone can use it. you cant argue about that, thats not the same as someone you can beat and survive easily against. in no way can you compare those 2. if you can thats impressive, cause that goes against all common sense.

unless you got another arguement that does make sense, im done talking about that spell with you, use common sense

Its a very simple concept:, the fact everyone can do something has nothing to do to if its balanced or "overpowered". I just can't believe that someone from such a country with such a tradition on education can't grasp a concept that simple, even when someone uses an analogy to explain it better.
they train and get gc to buy the pp, how exactly didnt they train to get the highest power? the pp are gotten from hard work in training after all.
They are not doing that in an exponential and balanced way. If the pps were bought using asgnny's idea, i would not complay.
basicly you got no arguement about why they should be removed, saying they are gotten in a imbalanced way doesnt mean anything.
OMG, where i said that? Please quote. Its like the forth time you claim i am saying stuff i am not. Really, please quote. I am all for people getting reward for their hard work.
anyone can get them with hard work, imbalanced would be if it was easy for a couple of people, and hard for the rest.
Its moderate for top fighters, really hard for the rest.
just cause the few who do have alot of bought pp spend $ on it doesnt make it imbalanced, if it was you should take away being able to buy gc, removals and what not for $.
Yes, people walking around with *TONS* of perks and attributes is totally balanced.
im gonna make it really, really easy for you Lorck.

 

should someone, who spend maybe a few months on his char, beat someone who spend 5 or more years on his char?

Who argued otherwise? I just think it should be balanced in the end game, like it is in other games, with a nice "soft" cap, which it was a great design feature of EL. Edited by Lorck

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Why not go another way and remove nexus all from the game?

Let all skills be dependent of recommanded level, like silver ore are level 24 recommanded - and the book read - before you are able to harvest it.

 

All PP used only for attributes and perks.

Mixers who only want p/c/w could take some good and fighters some neg to get extra PPs - with HoS will harvesting be bad even if you have level 100 harvest.

 

This way no buying PP, you have to work for the skills.

Edited by Zamirah

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first it was the way the pp are gotten is imbalanced, now its endgame thats imbalanced, pick something and stick with it.

stop putting words in my mouth, i didnt say they are overpowered, never said they were, i said they arent as overpowered AS YOU THINK THEY ARE, comprendre?

 

You just don't say the details. Of course if you gang them up or use summoned chims, but that i would not call "easy" kill, like you say. I still want to see you pwning kgxjeff easily, like you said many times you do.

if thats not easy to beat someone stronger god knows what is, you want higher lvls to die 1on1 in 5sec flat against someone weaker? is that easy enough?

i explained details to you on channel 6, if you dont understand that then ill say it again, easier this time.

 

1 Strong guy Vs 1 Weaker guy.

1 weaker guy do #Gm Hey Tyra, lets go kf. OR #Gm Tiger, summon some chims

 

rocket science simpliflied, really Lorck, it cant get much more easier then that.. takes 1 hour or less to get gc for chims, takes only gearing up and going kf with an equal lvl partner..

if that is way too hard for you then i suggest you play Duckhunt or Tetris.. but if calling 1 person for help is too hard.. i'd scrap Tetris and use a bazooka for Duckhunt.

 

if you are ok with asgnny's suggestion then stay quiet, the one with most gc would still have most pp, as it is now ;)

i wont argue with you about the rest, its just tiring to talk some sense into you.

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im gonna make it really, really easy for you Lorck. should someone, who spend maybe a few months on his char, beat someone who spend 5 or more years on his char?
Who argued otherwise? I just think it should be balanced in the end game, like it is in other games, with a nice "soft" cap, which it was a great design feature of EL.

So, what's your answer? It isn't clear to me. Should noobs be able to beat old players?

 

It's really a question of one of the fundamental aspects of this game. The way EL is now, victory is determined mostly by stats. In some games, victory is determined mostly by skill. Which should it be?

 

Back to the topic at hand, pp buying allows new characters to quickly increase their attributes, which can make them competitive against older players with higher skill levels, but lower attributes. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

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first it was the way the pp are gotten is imbalanced, now its endgame thats imbalanced, pick something and stick with it.
its they way to gets PP in the endgame.
stop putting words in my mouth
I quoted you, and you claim i say stuff i never did, i ask you to quote and you don't (of course, you can't, you can't quote stuff i never said).
You just don't say the details. Of course if you gang them up or use summoned chims, but that i would not call "easy" kill, like you say. I still want to see you pwning kgxjeff easily, like you said many times you do.
if thats not easy to beat someone stronger god knows what is, you want higher lvls to die 1on1 in 5sec flat against someone weaker? is that easy enough?

i explained details to you on channel 6, if you dont understand that then ill say it again, easier this time.

 

1 Strong guy Vs 1 Weaker guy.

1 weaker guy do #Gm Hey Tyra, lets go kf. OR #Gm Tiger, summon some chims

 

rocket science simpliflied, really Lorck, it cant get much more easier then that..

Yes, only you can do that, the other guy can't.
takes 1 hour or less to get gc for chims
It takes one hour if you kill high drops monsters, it takes longer for most of EL.
if that is way too hard for you then i suggest you play Duckhunt or Tetris.. but if calling 1 person for help is too hard.. i'd scrap Tetris and use a bazooka for Duckhunt.
Funny this comments and all, of course, the weak guys are the only ones who team up, the others don't.
if you are ok with asgnny's suggestion then stay quiet, the one with most gc would still have most pp, as it is now ;)
Well, they would get their pps in a balanced and fair way. If you dig up a bit, you can see that i suggested even before than asgnny.
i wont argue with you about the rest, its just tiring to talk some sense into you.
Well, you won't argue because you don't have arguments for that, of course.

EDIT:

So, what's your answer? It isn't clear to me. Should noobs be able to beat old players?

 

It's really a question of one of the fundamental aspects of this game. The way EL is now, victory is determined mostly by stats. In some games, victory is determined mostly by skill. Which should it be?

Both should be important. But since this is a RPG, i would say the work the people put on their chars should matter more.
Back to the topic at hand, pp buying allows new characters to quickly increase their attributes, which can make them competitive against older players with higher skill levels, but lower attributes. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
No, it doesn't. It seems you missed the topic completly. people with low levels can't really kill monster with high drops. The ones who usually get more strong are those who are already very strong. "Newbies" have a hard time to catch up, even more if the way to get pp's at high level is linear. Edited by Lorck

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should someone, who spend maybe a few months on his char, beat someone who spend 5 or more years on his char?

 

That arguement can be used both ways...

 

Should someone who's spent a few months on his char be able to buy PP's and beat someone who hasnt and has spent 5 years on theirs ?

 

Which ever way you look at it the answer is no they shouldnt, but that should be because the top players have earned their levels by "training" not by spending gc or $.

 

That is where the major fault is , being able to buy strength rather than earn it... if the system had been OA 1-120 1 pp per level then OA 121-178 2 PP's per level no one would complain, since those PP's are still earned like they should be in any MMO

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Back to the topic at hand, pp buying allows new characters to quickly increase their attributes, which can make them competitive against older players with higher skill levels, but lower attributes. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?
No, it doesn't. It seems you missed the topic completly. people with low levels can't really kill monster with high drops. The ones who usually get more strong are those who are already very strong. "Newbies" have a hard time to catch up, even more if the way to get pp's at high level is linear.

We're looking at this from opposite angles. It seems you're saying that high level players can get stronger buy using the wealth they get from high level drops to buy pp, thus getting even stronger. I had suggested that noobs can buy pp by buying items at the EL shop for $, selling those items for gc, and using the gc to buy hydro bars and nexus removal stones to buy pp. I probably should have explained that.

 

So it seems that pp buying can benefit both old and new players. Does that have an effect on whether we think pp buying should stay in the game?

 

As conavar said, players with lots of $ shouldn't be stronger than other players just because they can afford to spend lots of real world cash on their character. I agree with that. In the scenarios described above, old players can buy pp with loot they've earned, while noobs are forced to use $. As things are now, there's no way to prevent either.

 

As I've said in an earlier post, I don't have a problem with pp buying, but if the majority of players would benefit from getting rid of pp buying, then it should be done. I'm fine with the original idea of changing nexus removal to nexus relocation.

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