Question about the economy

[Burn]

The EMU of the iron for a steel bars are many times more EMU to haul. So if you hate hauling bars you should really hate hauling iron ore. You have to run alot more if you have to move the iron ore to the storage before mixing.

 

(Looks at seriously underpriced offer to buy iron in sig) Because nobody ever buys large amounts of iron off others at storage...

 

Got that storage down to 50k emu yet? Still deciding which flowers to keep perhaps? Don't forget all the other sections. You speak a lot but I really don't think you could live with your own suggestions, even paying 1Mgc for a lousy 50k emu storage. (That's 5k of gypsum, btw.)

 

S2Es. From scratch. Limited storage usage per your suggestions. Get to work, live up to your own expectations.

 

 

And good job skipping the well-thought-out responses, sticking to responses where picking on tiny details you think you might still be right about.

[Cruella]

Silvatica, do you realize there is a lot of players that currently hold several millions emu at their sto ?

 

Have you ever seen "Selling 200k silver" or "Buying up to 100k iron" ads on the market channel ?

 

What is the biggest project you have ever made ?

 

For me, I can name over a dozen of ings in my sto I try to keep in large quantities, just to have them ready for Joule's, Recycle, Scholars, etc. On top of that come ings kept for personal and for guild projects. FYI, for the current AoI project I have supplied 90K of flowers which equals 90k emu.

 

As you can see your proposal would cause severe consequences without sufficient benefits, at least imho.

[Silvatica]

Already thought about it.

 

Therein lies the problem. Thinking and doing are two different things.

 

I don't think you grasp how extremely difficult that would be just by "thinking about it". Never did the hydro run, but I have made 100-batch of S2Es. That in itself would have been extremely painful without decent storage, doing a full 50 hydro bar project would be unthinkable.

 

You're officially challenged. Make just the S2Es if you don't wanna hydro run, they'll sell quickly. Just make 'em from scratch, in the manner that you described. Let's see if your thoughts are truly feasible.

 

 

I've made hydro runs with items I've made from scratch - note that for a hydro run you only need 30 s2e since they don't stack. For these items I doubt I ever had a need for more then 5000 emu. Thats because I mix on site and just store the bars - with an EMU of 2 they are easy to carry from the cave and don't take much place in storage.

 

As for a fighter - if you invest 10K for a 20K storage you can store enough for 20 fighting runs before having to go to the market and buy more items. So no you dont have to ask on market channel every tim you want to go fighting. You can also just buy from a bot there are several bots with decent prices for srs and he.

 

As for storage - currently I probably have something like 250K in storage but as soon as a good day for alching comes up I will do my best to lower that amount alot. For example I got 16K mullein and probably 40K of other assorted flowers that I some day will go to flower shop in irsis and sell - but since there is no restriction in what one can have in storeage - Ive just not gotten around to clear it out.

 

I think its the same with many more poeple - since the storage are nearly unlimited they have a lot of 'garbage' that they don't really need but are in storage since they had not have time to get rid off it.

 

PS My biggest project is buying nexuses with hydro bars - I have about 20 nexuses that I want to buy - but I do them one nexus at a time. I see no reason for people to have several millions of silver ore in their storage just for the fun of it.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Silvatica

[korrode]

Although i agree with the limiting of amount of rare items in storage, i don't agree with putting a general cap on storage.

[Cruella]

What about limiting fighters to having 3 swords in sto ? Or up to 3 sets of armor total ? Since Entropy states that keeping ings for 3 armor sets is hoarding, keeping 3 ready sets is even more (you can always fail during manuing and lose stuff and saving economy)

[Burn]

...as soon as a good day for alching comes up I will do my best to lower that amount alot....

 

BUT

 

- Have a limit in total number of items in storage or a limit in EMU stored at storage. That way no one can hoard into storage and are forced to sell the items that is just saved for a special day when alching is profitable and they want to sit and make items for the whole day.

 

 

Sorry. Now or never, as you're wishing to force on everyone else. Perhaps a mod could do a clean for you to make it less painless... and half all your experience as you wanted, er, suggested.

 

 

-------------------

 

 

Now, much of this was said before, but because they were significant points you chose instead to peck at other insignificant things instead.

 

Even with the 1 million gc for a useless 50k storage:

 

(1) IEDP perk rendered useless as keeping a food supply just got near well impossible. That's brought up in particular because it costs pp's, but keeping a supply of any useful food (toadies, fps) has been rendered impossible as well. Many have 50k emu in food stock alone, which doesn't take long to use and thus requires constant resupplying. A large stock of food is pretty much a necessity in this game, and you'd have people relegated to food that might last 2-3 hours.

 

(2) Any special mixer day such as Joule and Scholar day may as well be taken out of the game completely, as it will be impossible to get any benefit out of them.

 

(3) That iron ore you're currently trying to rip off people at a measly 2.5 each would be upwards of 10gc each minimum with this, as noone would be stocking it to sell. They'd not have the room to stock it. Schmurk can turn his market site off, stocking to sell to other people will be a thing of the past. The only thing that keeps good sales between players going is storage.

 

(4) You've failed to state how the 40k tree shrooms I have in my storage (or the 395k I know one person has for that matter) is in any way even remotely affecting the economy. How my silver stock is any business of yours. Why I should be relegated to 5k of gypsum (if I have nothing else in storage, at all) for some odd thinking that having more than ONLY that in my storage would ruin the economy.

 

(5) You've killed any possibility of working on more than one skill at a time. It will be impossible to keep any semblance of stock to work on more than one. Jack of all Traders or even people who actually like to do more than one thing in-game should not have to have their gameplay ruined because of some deluded idea that "owning" more than 50k emu of anything is somehow destroying the economy.

 

(6) Invasions would no longer be able to be appreciated by many, as their entire storage, devoted to a mixing project, had no room to keep anything else like fighting gear and ways to stay alive. (Er, and god forbid they get a stone off an invasion critter but they already had their 25 spots full.)

 

(7) Tailoring would be even more of a wasted skill than it already is. Tailored items barely sell as-is, that would go to null if there were a storage limit as every single emu point would have to be thoroughly taken into account... non-necessities (like tailored items) are out.

 

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, you have in no way, shape, or form thought this through.

 

 

Quit nitpicking on the insignificant petty details and face the real issues. Or don't respond, as your inability to listen to the plethora of people trying to tell you that you have no clue is tiring.

 

You have shown repeatedly now that you yourself couldn't possibly live with such a horrendously low limit, but expect everyone else to anyway, without even a clue as to what this would do to the economy. Get your storage emu down to 50k NOW as you would force on everyone else, or don't bother posting again. Put your money where your mouth is. You think you can do it, prove it.

 

 

 

You have completely failed in all ways to say how making the game too much of a pain in the ass to play could possibly help the economy. Oh wait, people quit playing because it's damn near impossible to do anything. Problem solved?

 

You're not suggesting anything that will save the economy here. You're suggesting completely ruining any form of game play for all who are primarily mixers. And killing the game completely for Jack of all Traders.

 

That, and make sure this gets through that skull (unlike anything else stated thus far), does not help the economy. At all.

[Burn]

And again, I'll state on a completely different note from the above:

 

 

Instant drastic changes like pretty much everything suggested thus far will do nothing whatsoever to change the economy. They will serve as bandages only to eventually fall off, solving nothing.

 

Only a well-thought-out solution, that is implemented slowly over a long period has even the remotest possibility of doing anything significant. Not one has been suggested yet, and honestly I don't know either. But there's no rush to come up with one. And certainly no need to make drastic decisions that not only will not help the economy, but kill game play in the process.

[Ateh]

the longer this thread goes on the more potential it has for peeps to make suggestions like limiting storage space or charging GC for it ................

 

i think a better way to ensure the availabilty of rare ingredients is to automaticaly delete them from an inactive storage after a person hasnt logged in for 6 months .....

 

ive heard on numerous occasion the fact there are X amount of serp / binding stones in game but are those numbers being clouded by inactive accounts who are possibly holding collectively hundreds if not thousands of serp / binding / EFE ?

 

also , for all the BS prices that people create for certain things, perhaps there should be more of an effort to COLLECTIVELY organise price caps , I know people will say yeh but this wont happen and nobody can achieve this but thats missing one fundamental point ..........

 

the EL economy is as much affected by players as it is Ent controlling input output of rare ings, if we cannot be organised enough to decide on some fair and decent prices game wide them nothing will ever change for the better when it comes to the economy ,

 

i mean FFS its not like this is W0W with 6 million players , its prolly around 1k players , and 1k peeps who cant organise themselves to take control of an economy they think is failing

 

personaly I think the communtiy is failing , not the economy

[Khalai]

FFS, do not FORCE people by some RESTRICTIONS of STORAGE. Instead, people should be motivated to use those rare items, so they goes into final products and into the marketflow rather than catching dust in storage.

 

And I completely agree with Ateh, I also wonder, how many inactive accounts make part of that statistics and if it's not being biased too much by it.

 

(this is off record, but it's like communistic thinking of market to control everything, try promoting and motivating people to make some business instead)

Edited January 16, 2009 by Khalai

[Zamirah]

i think a better way to ensure the availabilty of rare ingredients is to automaticaly delete them from an inactive storage after a person hasnt logged in for 6 months .....

 

And if people come back to an empty storage after a year ?

Dont you think it will make them quit the game ?

 

I have been out of the game for close to a year, I have 28 rostos in my storage, bought in the shop for RL money.

If they had been missing when I logged on again, be sure I would have quit forever and one of my friends, who started again after more than a year, had done the same.

 

At the time I'm online are all maps very empty, only a little over 200 online.

We need more people, not less.

I think it would be a bad idea if you can't take a break and return again, even after more than a year.

 

We were 2 who bought 50 rostos - I think she got 10 and I got 40 - it was when we had the Bethel invasions.

I think it's far to many to sell to 1 char and I think it's a big part of the problem.

 

I think the only thing that would help, is to stop selling anything from the shop and make it a pay to play game.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Zamirah

[Ateh]

I have been out of the game for close to a year, I have 28 rostos in my storage, bought in the shop for RL money.

If they had been missing when I logged on again, be sure I would have quit forever and one of my friends, who started again after more than a year, had done the same.

yeh I see your point , especially with shop bought items, I didnt really mean delete the whole storage , just things like serp / binding / EFE .... simply because it might be ( and im probably wrong ) but it might be that the figures of these items in game may not be a true reflection of available items due to them being sat inside inactive accounts.

 

I personally know 1 person who hasnt logged into EL for well over 8-9 months and at the time of leaving was constantly informing us of the 30 + EFE , 30 + serp stones he was sat on. These items are not really in the game are they ? But they may possibly be counted as part of the available stock, which is not a true reflection.

At the time I'm online are all maps very empty, only a little over 200 online.

We need more people, not less.

 

I agree , EL would be better with more people , how many of those 200 were real players ? woud be a scary thought to think you were playing EL with 177 bots when you log in and only 25-30 actual players ........

[Burn]

i think a better way to ensure the availabilty of rare ingredients is to automaticaly delete them from an inactive storage after a person hasnt logged in for 6 months .....

 

As they are already technically "out of the game" for people like that, sitting in an unused storage is no different than not being in the game at all, just not counting them would be a better idea (expanding on Zamirah's reason against this).

 

The number of people who reappear after such a long time aren't that many, and their return, while bringing those items back into the count, wouldn't count for that much anyway and could be adjusted after the fact based on the new counts.

[Ateh]

I remember Ent once throwing us a number of at any given time there being 5k serp stones in the game..........

 

But if you try to buy a serp stone on market channel then good luck !! lol

I bet we woud be surprised to find out how many of the 5k serp stones are sat on inactive accounts

 

Even if its 500 (and 500 is not really a stretch of the imagination if we all know 1 person who doesn't play anymore who left the game with 1 serp stone)

thats 10% of all serp stones and with such a small player base, thats quite alot

 

*edit* anyway im still of the opinion that the player base is failing the economy and not the other way around

Edited January 16, 2009 by Ateh

[korrode]

What about limiting fighters to having 3 swords in sto ?

Well the equivalent of the idea i'm supporting would be for fighters to only have X of each sword.

Only being able to have 3 Cutty's or 3 JS's at a time would be fine

[Eugenia]

You excuse me I am Italian and I will try to express better me that I am able.

In my RL unfortunately meritocracy doesn't exist and here on EL life was gratifying, I beg you not to ruin the game with useless complications

ty

[agis29]

The biggest problem is the luck of newbie players. Newbie's that buy stuff would solve many problems.

But with penalties and limitations, the game will be less fun espessialy for newcomers that played

other MMORPG games with no economy. Some items do need a higher break ratio though.

A good example are moon medallions.

Additional god quests(rare stones-expensive armour and weap's) would be a quick solution.

Another problem is the luck of a real pvp system. No, i don't mean pk.

I mean mini pvp games(capture and carrie the opponents scull for example) inside a pvp instance.

Being pr0 in such games won't be important so all players will play. (and many items will break)

[Hermit]

<3 hoarders

Edited January 16, 2009 by Hermit

[Entropy]

Ok, first, I am a pro market guy, so I do not favour ideas that limit the ability of people to place items in storage, rare or otherwise.

Regarding the need for new players to keep the economy going, this is sort of like creating a ponzi scheme. Those ne wplayers will eventually become pr0s, and will need even more n00bs to sell their stuff to, and so on.

 

Now, there are two ways (that I think of) that can improve the economy somewhat:

1. Increase the consumption via a higher breaking rate and new one time use items (such as the horse whistle).

2. Have the player based cities, which will require huge amount of resources to build, upgrade and maintain.

 

Most fighters are opposed to the higher breaking rates, so the only viable solution is having the player absed cities, but that can't be done very soon, because we'd first need to switch to the new engine, so it might take 2 years or possibly more until we have that.

[The_Piper]

2. Have the player based cities, which will require huge amount of resources to build, upgrade and maintain.

 

Cities run by players might be a good idea IMO.

 

Just creating a city is a one time money drain.

 

Running a city is a permanent money drain, like you have to equip a city police, you have to sell stuff to NPC's there, if you dont sell to them, they run out of resources and dont sell stuff anymore, and you have to buy from other NPC's, which sell stuff for higher prices and so on.

 

Like you have to sell a given amount of fruits every week to the taverns in the city, or they wont sell cheap wine.

 

You have to sell a given amount of furs to NPC's inside the city, or you can't buy cheap leather, and so on.

 

Selling a given amount of leather armor to the city guards is a must, or ebul monsters will invade the city at night.

 

And so on, and so on.

 

 

Piper

[Ateh]

2. Have the player based cities, which will require huge amount of resources to build, upgrade and maintain.

 

sounds fantastic ... www.aTeh4mayor.com

 

but that can't be done very soon, because we'd first need to switch to the new engine, so it might take 2 years or possibly more until we have that.

well if theres one thing you need to play EL its patience so most players have some of that .......

 

while this thread has your interest can I ask if you count inactive storages as part of the available rare items such as serp stones / binding stones / enriched essies ? if you dont want to answer thats fine its up to you

[Entropy]

I have two ways to determine the rarity of an item:

1. Looking at how many of that item are in the game, including all accounts.

2. Looking at a per day info, to see the trend. If the trend for a rare item is that more of it comes in the game than goes out (averaged for a week or so), then that item is less rare. Normally, a rare item should exit at the same rate (or even higher rate) than it enters the game.

[Guest Trojan_Knight]

Most fighters are opposed to the higher breaking rates, so the only viable solution is having the player absed cities, but that can't be done very soon, because we'd first need to switch to the new engine, so it might take 2 years or possibly more until we have that.

 

In my opinion.. Increasing the break rate slightly wouldn't be so bad of a idea. If also the "rare" fun drop rate of creatures was also possibly increased slightly to help level out the flexibilty of the changes. Maybe some fighters would still complain. Or maybe some people in general would. Regardless, if the increases occured to help put more items out of the game. Yet at the same time some more items were being braught into the game. I think it would "spark" a faster coin transfer rate among/between the players to some extent. Though to get more coins out of the game. I think would require more npc's.. So your idea of building a city, that I believe was a idea ya thought of some time ago. Would also help in the many ways already listed. A few things to go along w/ city building. Could be ideas/questions like -

 

~ Would invasions of monsters cause damage to these cities, thus making a need for people to repair?

~ Could players cause damage to these cities in the same manner?

~ Could a city produce a "one type" of item, that can not be made anywhere else. So that in sense each city could have its own monopoly of some sort to help offset costs?

 

Theres many more ideas and questions that go along w/ your idea. And I'm sure if I search I could find a thread regarding the matter that was started long ago, but im to lazy.. Though like you stated, that is some thought for the distant future. I think for right now, what may be needed. Is a couple of things for "now". And I list them in order of I find important.

 

~ Players begining to do instead of talking about it. ie: "No, I'm not going to sell you a Iron bar for 25gc ea, if you don't want to buy at 38gc ea, ur problem not mine." Far fetched example, but you get idea.

~ Maybe introduce a second set of costs to the current npc's for those that are anti neg perkD.. (I know taking anti means you can't use npc's for the most part.) However, would it help, to introduce a second set of costs? So that those, that are anti, could use npc's. But instead of the costs those that are not anti recieve. Adjust them. So that a player that is anti, has to pay more for the item, or recieve less gc for a item. I think what this would accomplish. Is more gc being transfered around. And the begining of a "common cost per item" display amongst the community. Sure, people still have friends that are not anti and could get around this. But I think since players do at times sell things to bots, for unreasonable prices. Or buy things from some bots for unreasonable prices in the idea of a quick sale. Or aquiring a item quickly. Maybe some would be okay with this flexibilty of this idea?

 

Anyways, Have fun.

[Shadow_runner]

Think about it. In the game, if you want to make fire essences. The only thing that you 'have' to buy is leather gloves. Even these can be made in due course, so the only thing that you than have to buy is 'leather' to make the gloves. Gold coin wise that is.

 

Everything else in the above example can be made for 'free'. Time input into the game and you produce the goods. Which currently sell at 3 to 3.5 gold coins each. With a chance for making an EFE, which currently sell for around 7,000 gold coins each.

 

Until there is some costs added too production. Then the economy will always been broken, in my view.

 

A real life example is:

 

You pay money for: house, food, bills, etc... So you 'need' to earn enough money for those first, before you can really do anything else. (Unless you like dept.)

You seem to persist that time does not equal money. Everything in the game can be made for free if you work from scratch, therefore there is a broken economy. This is wrong.

It is more like saying: 'You go out to buy a hatchet to chop down trees to use the logs to build your house. But even then, you could even make the hatchet yourself. So all you need to buy is the metal bit...'

 

Everyone does 'earn' money for the produced items they ultimately have. Hardly no one goes out to create armours from pure scratch. If they did, you can consider them to be naturalists in a real life situation.

 

Huh? What are you talking about? Where did i say that time does not equal money?

 

If you read my example carefully. I say that you can make FE's for 'free', which are worth money. (Gold coins.)

 

Can you move a whole log by yourself? Are you that strong?

 

Your talking about a different aspect of natural survival in the real world. I am talking about some ideas on how to fix the economy. By introducing base costs into the system. Via: Storage's, workshops, npc's and other possible factors.

[Shadow_runner]

Already thought about it.

 

I've made hydro runs with items I've made from scratch - note that for a hydro run you only need 30 s2e since they don't stack. For these items I doubt I ever had a need for more then 5000 emu. Thats because I mix on site and just store the bars - with an EMU of 2 they are easy to carry from the cave and don't take much place in storage.

 

 

You only need 30 s2e's to make a hydro run? I don't believe a word of it.

[skodarap]

Already thought about it.

 

I've made hydro runs with items I've made from scratch - note that for a hydro run you only need 30 s2e since they don't stack. For these items I doubt I ever had a need for more then 5000 emu. Thats because I mix on site and just store the bars - with an EMU of 2 they are easy to carry from the cave and don't take much place in storage.

 

 

You only need 30 s2e's to make a hydro run? I don't believe a word of it.

 

And how many s2e's do you carry when you go on hydro run?