Magic Immune

[Sayre]

Because the more level it is, more active PK is... the more rostos that get poofed, the more armor that gets broken, the more fun we have, the more bricks for radu.

 

And the more alienated the people who have worked hard to get an edge in levels will get.

 

And these are reasons why it would be "good" (arguably), not "should"'s

 

S.

[Aislinn]

Because the more level it is, more active PK is... the more rostos that get poofed, the more armor that gets broken, the more fun we have, the more bricks for radu.

 

I disagree. I KNOW people HATE hearing about the "old days" but I have to comment. Before we had pickpoints, (edit: before we had negative perks (that aren't so negative)), before we had outrageous weapons and armour and BroD's and BoD's, when levels were what mattered...and 300 max emu...people did NOT have these PK issues. If you got beaten, you deserved it. People knew it and didn't whine about it. PK was thriving...even I went into KF a fair amount and even killed a few people.

 

The point being, if somebody has higher a/d, higher magic, higher LEVELS in their SKILLS, they SHOULD beat you. End of story. Making things "even" so newer players or players with less time or whatever can "win" makes NO sense. If the only reason somebody is here or can have a "good time" is to "WIN", then this is the wrong game. It should not be an instant gratification game. Pickpoints should NOT determine the victor. Just not right, imo.

 

Edit: The problem is that the playing field is not level now for all the wrong reasons, so adding more "wrong reason" solutions won't fix it, but rather will dig the whole deeper imo.

[Zeddicul]

@ Zeddicul

 

PPl are not afraid of mages for if MI was changed like some people wish ,then a pure mage class would still be at a big disadvantage against a higher a/der with a little less magic level, they can harm/drain you as well and have the bonus of hitting a mage hard with a sword

 

what most people are saying ( well those who know what they are on about ) is that without proper thought, any change will just over balance PK in favour of the high a/ders who by the nature of there a/d training have a very high magic level, it will broaden the gap not level it up

 

 

I can understand that and lots have tried to explain, but to me they are already. these high lvl. players have also (very often atleast) the most ebul wheapons too so are already pretty invincible, now ppl have to team to fight them and that won't chance imho.

 

What will chance is a midlvl player can get killed by some1 who has put time and effort into training magic (like i do, dam i train all evening and get 60k magxp and only 60k a/d in 5 hr. and that is way less then even a low lvl fighter gets )

[Zeddicul]

Because the more level it is, more active PK is... the more rostos that get poofed, the more armor that gets broken, the more fun we have, the more bricks for radu.

 

I disagree. I KNOW people HATE hearing about the "old days" but I have to comment. Before we had pickpoints, (edit: before we had negative perks (that aren't so negative)), before we had outrageous weapons and armour and BroD's and BoD's, when levels were what mattered...and 300 max emu...people did NOT have these PK issues. If you got beaten, you deserved it. People knew it and didn't whine about it. PK was thriving...even I went into KF a fair amount and even killed a few people.

 

The point being, if somebody has higher a/d, higher magic, higher LEVELS in their SKILLS, they SHOULD beat you. End of story. Making things "even" so newer players or players with less time or whatever can "win" makes NO sense. If the only reason somebody is here or can have a "good time" is to "WIN", then this is the wrong game. It should not be an instant gratification game. Pickpoints should NOT determine the victor. Just not right, imo.

 

Edit: The problem is that the playing field is not level now for all the wrong reasons, so adding more "wrong reason" solutions won't fix it, but rather will dig the whole deeper imo.

 

 

I am not from the old days. i am only a yr. old (my main is older but also nicer ) But this is imho what it should all be about.

 

time and effort, not gc ($$) or howfar ppl wanna negout to become next lvl bully.

 

In fact its not even about magic alone, next is the ranger who has lvl 100 and can damage only 30 points and loose 150gc for the arrow, and a 100kgc bow because in pk his opponent will tele to range and hit him(his bow) with a great sword.

 

 

just a question to fighters, when did/will you reach mag lvl 60 ( i mean at what a/d lvl at the way you all lvl atm? )

[korrode]

@Aisy and Spleen

 

LOL you'd think we'd asked for a 10 a/d person to be able to kill a 100 a/d person or something

 

No one wants it completely even, but making it as un-even as some suggestions in this thread would isn't gonna be good either.

[Zeddicul]

@Aisy and Spleen

 

LOL you'd think we'd asked for a 10 a/d person to be able to kill a 100 a/d person or something

 

No one wants it completely even, but making it as un-even as some suggestions in this thread would isn't gonna be good either.

 

 

I don't, but only keeping high lvl's as important as they are to you, is also discriminating the midlvl players (and "high lvl" mages )

[korrode]

huh?

[kl4Uz]

The point being, if somebody has higher a/d, higher magic, higher LEVELS in their SKILLS, they SHOULD beat you. End of story.

 

I strongly disagree. If it were like that EL would be a tabular calculation and not a game. If it was simply a question of how many orcs/fluffies/etc you killed to make that little skill number rise, it wouldn't be a game anymore.

 

While I agree with you that PK was different, speaking from my own experience, we can't go back to that stage. Back then I went into KF with 30 a/d and there was always someone to fight. It's different now and a lot of factors contributed to this. In addition I want to remind you that back then we didn't have attributes cap and soon PK became a p/c fest...

 

Things change, not only in EL but also in the real world. We all knew that this game is BETA and even final versions of games tend to change via patches etc. What I'm saying is: Just because a certain player is the best now because of how the game used to work in the past, doesn't mean the game shouldn't be changed so NEW players or other players have more fun/options/variety/etc.

 

And back on topic:

If I choose to be an allrounder in EL, I will never be a full pker, simply because I need many pp for other stuff. A manufacturer or crafter needs a decent amount of pp in the according nexus, etc. So every decision in EL comes with a cost. The same should be applied to magic.

 

The number one priority should be: make magic a full trade (skill) and no longer have it as a sub skill of fighting.

 

In order to do that it should be assured that:

1) a decent number of pp should be put in a nexus (as i suggested before) associated with magic or put in attributes associated with magic (as Schmurk suggested)

2) that current pkers will not automatically be mages

 

Number 2 is really important! Why? Just think about what would happen if everyone could use a "BREAK IM" spell right now... some people described it before. It would harm the game a lot. Hence these spells should only be casted by people who als put some effort (see 1)). Additionally we will need more spells for mages, especially such which affect and area and not only a person, otherwise the possibilities of mages will always be quite limited.

[Aislinn]

The point being, if somebody has higher a/d, higher magic, higher LEVELS in their SKILLS, they SHOULD beat you. End of story.

I strongly disagree. If it were like that EL would be a tabular calculation and not a game. If it was simply a question of how many orcs/fluffies/etc you killed to make that little skill number rise, it wouldn't be a game anymore.

That's what we have to work with though, in any game. For the most part, that is what leveling IS.

 

While I agree with you that PK was different, speaking from my own experience, we can't go back to that stage. Back then I went into KF with 30 a/d and there was always someone to fight. It's different now and a lot of factors contributed to this. In addition I want to remind you that back then we didn't have attributes cap and soon PK became a p/c fest...

No, I'm talking about when we couldn't raise our attributes to more than 15 each. Before pp's existed. We raised our attributes by doing quests, which granted were no more than paying gc to the npc.

 

Things change, not only in EL but also in the real world. We all knew that this game is BETA and even final versions of games tend to change via patches etc. What I'm saying is: Just because a certain player is the best now because of how the game used to work in the past, doesn't mean the game shouldn't be changed so NEW players or other players have more fun/options/variety/etc.

Agreed, but not at the expense of the players who actually did put the time and effort into it. We don't want to lose the experienced players just because the new ones want instant gratification. I also have a problem with patches or "improvements" that would be GREAT if everybody was starting from 0, but benefit new people and hurt the old ones severely, or vice versa. Skill levels should be the primary indicator of a player's prowess in a certain skill, attributes should only help them along that path, not determine who's best. Anybody can "buy" in various forms attributes, that is no indicator of skill.

 

And back on topic:

If I choose to be an allrounder in EL, I will never be a full pker, simply because I need many pp for other stuff. A manufacturer or crafter needs a decent amount of pp in the according nexus, etc. So every decision in EL comes with a cost.

Absolutely agreed.

 

The same should be applied to magic.

Agreed again, but not in a manner that when applied after people already have leveled/distributed pp's a certain way, suddenly benefit greatly while others suddenly lose greatly.

 

The number one priority should be: make magic a full trade (skill) and no longer have it as a sub skill of fighting.

 

In order to do that it should be assured that:

1) a decent number of pp should be put in a nexus (as i suggested before) associated with magic or put in attributes associated with magic (as Schmurk suggested)

2) that current pkers will not automatically be mages

 

Number 2 is really important! Why? Just think about what would happen if everyone could use a "BREAK IM" spell right now... some people described it before. It would harm the game a lot. Hence these spells should only be casted by people who als put some effort (see 1)). Additionally we will need more spells for mages, especially such which affect and area and not only a person, otherwise the possibilities of mages will always be quite limited.

Then we should probably have character resets to make it all fair for everyone. And we all know that won't happen. There will always be strong disagreements on how to fix things when we can't start everbody from the same level playing field and one or more groups will inevitably be unhappy with the "fix".

 

Edit: accidentally chopped off my first quote

[asgnny]

The point being, if somebody has higher a/d, higher magic, higher LEVELS in their SKILLS, they SHOULD beat you. End of story.

 

I strongly disagree. If it were like that EL would be a tabular calculation and not a game. If it was simply a question of how many orcs/fluffies/etc you killed to make that little skill number rise, it wouldn't be a game anymore.

It's not always about how many monsters are in your counter, so much as how efficiently you can train on them. Two players can kill 1000 of the same monster, one earning twice the exp of the other.

 

While I agree with you that PK was different, speaking from my own experience, we can't go back to that stage. Back then I went into KF with 30 a/d and there was always someone to fight. It's different now and a lot of factors contributed to this. In addition I want to remind you that back then we didn't have attributes cap and soon PK became a p/c fest...

There was no cooldown at the time. Someone at 50 a/d with decent pk'ing skills could kill a higher a/d person since he wasn't dead after a few restores, and could wait to take advantage of a mistake made by the stronger player.

 

Things change, not only in EL but also in the real world. We all knew that this game is BETA and even final versions of games tend to change via patches etc. What I'm saying is: Just because a certain player is the best now because of how the game used to work in the past, doesn't mean the game shouldn't be changed so NEW players or other players have more fun/options/variety/etc.

 

And back on topic:

If I choose to be an allrounder in EL, I will never be a full pker, simply because I need many pp for other stuff. A manufacturer or crafter needs a decent amount of pp in the according nexus, etc. So every decision in EL comes with a cost. The same should be applied to magic.

 

The number one priority should be: make magic a full trade (skill) and no longer have it as a sub skill of fighting.

 

In order to do that it should be assured that:

1) a decent number of pp should be put in a nexus (as i suggested before) associated with magic or put in attributes associated with magic (as Schmurk suggested)

2) that current pkers will not automatically be mages

 

Number 2 is really important! Why? Just think about what would happen if everyone could use a "BREAK IM" spell right now... some people described it before. It would harm the game a lot. Hence these spells should only be casted by people who als put some effort (see 1)). Additionally we will need more spells for mages, especially such which affect and area and not only a person, otherwise the possibilities of mages will always be quite limited.

Pickpoints (albeit expensive) are buyable for the strong players too, so your second 'assurance' is simply not going to happen. Unless the nexus requirement is something ridiculously high (like 30), the top fighters (who already have the highest magic levels) would surely spend the necessary pickpoints and easily destroy any so-called "mage" in PK. At the same time, any "mage" with 30 pickpoints invested would be severely handicapped in every other facet of EL life. As mentioned by a previous poster, EL is a classless game (I mean really, talk to some of the players ), and having someone with strong magic but unable to hold more than 3 spells worth of essences is quite silly.

 

Lastly, where would these "mages" get the millions of gc needed to earn a semi-decent magic level? As nice as it sounds to have a new "mage class" in our classless game, I really don't see how it can be fairly implemented this far into EL's development.

[vytukas]

Nice post asgnny!!!

 

To sum it up the ideas I agree with most: magic is not something very intelligent or time consuming, it is just money sink, just buy tons of essences (like Air for MD) and cast lots of spells. Level fast and painlessly (just expensive).

 

We have ranging for people who like that, why make magic second ranging?? As it would become identical - ranged damage by wasting some ings

[conavar]

Personaly Im not against a "mage" class in theory, I just disagree with the idea to mess with MI.

 

Maybe later in the games dev new spells will be added, for me it would be nice if these spells were ranged ( the standard rpg fireball, lightning bolt etc), and I would be quite happy if any new spells required a very high magic level and magic nexus ( for pure mage builds), I would even go as far as to say "make them ignore MI", but are unable to be cast once engaged in combat.

[Wizzy]

Personaly Im not against a "mage" class in theory, I just disagree with the idea to mess with MI.

 

Maybe later in the games dev new spells will be added, for me it would be nice if these spells were ranged ( the standard rpg fireball, lightning bolt etc), and I would be quite happy if any new spells required a very high magic level and magic nexus ( for pure mage builds), I would even go as far as to say "make them ignore MI", but are unable to be cast once engaged in combat.

 

I personalt think a remove immunity spell is reasonable. But since it is such a powerfull spell, it should cost a lot to cast..maybe 100 mana? I do like the idea of new spells that would penetrate immunity (i.e a magic arrow) since it would become an arrow instead of pure magic?

[Zeddicul]

Being a mage who is willing to train his ass of to stand a chance in PK (dam i hate it when ppl wine its dead and kill me in few sec after i enter a pk map) i must strongly disagree on the nexus part. Not that for realy strong spells some Nexus is equired, enter a Witch nexus and make it like human nexus, but with magic being lvl depended it cant be like you need like 30pp (imho a max of 7pp cant hurt too much)

 

Dont forget that the way magic is atm it is very related at will/reasoning, mages need to block some hits (so a decent coord is needed) being able to absorb some damage and have atleast as much carry cappacity as the avarage fighter wich is where physyc comes into play. then there is the issue of mana, vitality should have some pp too, so maybe somebody could tell me where to get 30pp for a nexus wich doesn't do anything but making you able to cast a spell ?

 

For fighters its like the human nexus give's them the possibilty to wear sertain armour, if a mage want to stand a chance he needs atleast human 5 but better even human 6.

 

All this together most of the ppl i hear just want it to make it impossible to train a char being a mage and have asmuch fun as they do.

All i want is have fun in pk too and doing it just that bit different than the horde of players, neg out bash mobs for months(or a year) and go into pk to harash everyone you see.

 

I train as hard as any fighter, ppl who know me a little bit can agree on that and willing to train magic my a/d cant lvl or it would go so slow i have to train 5yr and still be killed on sight.

 

therefor there should be a way to play the game i like (and since the game has a magic skill why wouldn't i ?) and break through a rediculous low lvl spell, even if its just a percentage of a chance todo it or the spell i cast gets a percentage of the base damage.

[conavar]

I do like the idea of new spells that would penetrate immunity (i.e a magic arrow) since it would become an arrow instead of pure magic?

 

Well any ranged spell should IMO ignore MI , to give the mage an edge aslong as he keeps his distance, And with the basics already ingame (ranging and area effects from mines) Im not sure how hard it would be to implement, only Schmurk or Radu could answer that I suppose

[Revelation]

2 quick ideas come to mind:

 

1. Make the breakage of magic immunity an event such as armor breakage with the ratio determined using the magic nexus. On breakage make the MI spell on 2 sec cooldown. This should give the other fighter a chance to LD, MD, Harm, etc.

 

2. To make being a mage useful in PK introduce an item such as "Robe of the Mage" where when worn gives the person the ability to break through MI. This would make a mage useful but would also make them weak, lacking the sufficient armor.

 

Of course these ideas can be improved upon, I am sure future posts will prove me correct.

[Wizzy]

2 quick ideas come to mind:

 

1. Make the breakage of magic immunity an event such as armor breakage with the ratio determined using the magic nexus. On breakage make the MI spell on 2 sec cooldown. This should give the other fighter a chance to LD, MD, Harm, etc.

 

2. To make being a mage useful in PK introduce an item such as "Robe of the Mage" where when worn gives the person the ability to break through MI. This would make a mage useful but would also make them weak, lacking the sufficient armor.

 

Of course these ideas can be improved upon, I am sure future posts will prove me correct.

In an older thread on this topic I suggested this as a possible use for the warlock cloak...perhaps the warlock cloak could need 10 magic nexus (maximum) not wear as the artificer cape needs Human 7?

[Tempest]

why can't we just leave it as it is? lol

 

 

 

EDIT: to me, this is just another try of people who are bored from DPA suggesting something that will make their life easier in normal PK.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Tempest

[LeoI]

to me, this is just another try of people who are bored from DPA suggesting something that will make their life easier in normal PK.

 

 

i find that interesting, seeing as everyone else who was against it at the start of the thread just said it would make the strong stronger.

 

but if you do think its just another suggestion from ppl bored from DPA, is it really a bad thing if it gets them to move on to bigger pk?

the thing iv learned from this thread is that there will always be someone who will think its a bad idea and will ruin pk even more. every other suggestion made by other ppl in this thread has been shot down by someone but thats the way all suggestions are. even when the caps were introduced, many of the ppl who thought it would make pk crap actually love it now. the only way to know for sure is to test it and see how it works out IMO

[Robb]

How about changing Immunity to resistance? Make it a level based percentage chance of resisting the spell.

[Revelation]

In an older thread on this topic I suggested this as a possible use for the warlock cloak...perhaps the warlock cloak could need 10 magic nexus (maximum) not wear as the artificer cape needs Human 7?

 

Yes but you can still wear armor with a cloak, by making it a robe it takes up your torso and greaves spot, thus reducing your armor pretty significantly.

[Dushan]

All this together most of the ppl i hear just want it to make it impossible to train a char being a mage and have asmuch fun as they do.

All i want is have fun in pk too and doing it just that bit different than the horde of players, neg out bash mobs for months(or a year) and go into pk to harash everyone you see.

Actually, this sounds to me like you don't want to be bothered to train and get strong ... you just want to skip that months training part, and just get strong fast in an easy way

[Ozmondius]

Well, I think we may be nearing the end of the debate. Today, Alma and Force of ^@^ were strolling around in NcA chasing everyone out of the arena. Dugur, of Guild CLF walked in naked and killed all 3 people in the ring within 10 seconds. Want to be a mage, have an effective role in PK and kill top 50 a/d PK'rs? Talk to Dugur.

 

Edited May 30, 2008 by Ozmondius

[asgnny]

to me, this is just another try of people who are bored from DPA suggesting something that will make their life easier in normal PK.

 

i find that interesting, seeing as everyone else who was against it at the start of the thread just said it would make the strong stronger.

Believe it or not LeoI, some of those who would be made stronger by your suggestion can actually think beyond "omg, this will make me stronger, therefore I'm for it!". Magic is still vital in PK (see the screenie about Dugur above).

 

but if you do think its just another suggestion from ppl bored from DPA, is it really a bad thing if it gets them to move on to bigger pk?

the thing iv learned from this thread is that there will always be someone who will think its a bad idea and will ruin pk even more. every other suggestion made by other ppl in this thread has been shot down by someone but thats the way all suggestions are. even when the caps were introduced, many of the ppl who thought it would make pk crap actually love it now. the only way to know for sure is to test it and see how it works out IMO

The attribute caps were proposed by Entropy, however they were not automatically implemented, probably due to concern of (the usual) bitching and whining from players in light of what would be a significant change. I supported the change, and still do think it has helped level the playing field a bit.

 

If a suggestion needs to be made about magic immunity, how about having a variable duration, based on magic level and rationality? The current duration is a full 90 seconds of immunity, from level 30 magic and up. This would leave mage types with an advantage, but not render everyone else dead in 3 seconds (again, see the screenshot above).

[Wizzy]

gnny makes a lot of sense here ^^