conavar Report post Posted April 22, 2008 For what it's worth, i train on cyclops in human 0 gear so i get beaten around a fair bit and break loads of stuff anyway, and haven't noticed any difference since the update. Am I right in thinking that this update only makes a difference at those times when you don't get defense exp but you don't get hurt either? As long as measures have been/will be taken to decrease the likelihood of something much weaker than you breaking your armour, I see little to complain about (except that fighters/Pkers are always poor, but it was already an issue, and there's a different thread about that). True, One of the reasons I havent posted " omg my st00f broked" is because it hasnt, TBH ive broken less since the update than before, and its made me train fluffs without a COL so one less worry. But its about looking at the bigger picture and not just mine or yours or player A,B, or C's stats and the impact it has overall on fighting and the game.. Which Ent said he would do ( IIRC it was post #8) I did see this coming after people kept posting tbh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Piper Report post Posted April 22, 2008 For what it's worth, i train on cyclops in human 0 gear so i get beaten around a fair bit and break loads of stuff anyway, and haven't noticed any difference since the update. So true, and i dont even care, when another leather pants go down the edge.. Seriously, you are responsible for your actions, and some ppl play this game like doing stock car races with a rolls royce and later complain about scratches in the car paint. If you dont want to pay loads of gc for expensive armor, just dont do it and use leather stuff and steel chain mail and such. And fight the monsters you can fight with that stuff. But no, we are too greedy and want the drops from high leveled monsters and fight them with our shiny armor and glowing plastic sword... Well, you get what you deserve, the actual break rates are fine for me. Anyone wanna buy leather pants? Piper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
conavar Report post Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) If you dont want to pay loads of gc for expensive armor, just dont do it and use leather stuff and steel chain mail and such. And fight the monsters you can fight with that stuff. But no, we are too greedy and want the drops from high leveled monsters and fight them with our shiny armor and glowing plastic sword... Well, you get what you deserve, the actual break rates are fine for me. I think that is the major point that has pissed people off though, and why they have posted. The drops are just not there anymore to help pay to replace items. People see that PK/training has once more got more expensive and the drops dont increase to reflect this . If you want to have a stable market and a good rate of items leaving (breaking) and entering the game ( made items ) then people need an income to pay for them items ..no ? (which doesnt include 10 hours on lupines) Edited April 22, 2008 by conavar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LochnessLobster Report post Posted April 22, 2008 I don't mind the increased break rate. It suits my style Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marack Report post Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) Maybe we should state the breakage rate/chance in the Pedia for all to see. This would certainly make it clear to the purchaser/wearer the chances, and under what circumstances, a particular item can break. *If i had a nickel for every damn pickaxe...but that's another story. * If the breakage rate is wrong, Ent will be the first to know it, for that I'm sure. EDIT: (SP) Edited April 22, 2008 by marack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Piper Report post Posted April 22, 2008 I think that is the major point that has pissed people off though, and why they have posted. The drops are just not there anymore to help pay to replace items. *calm voice* You know, son, there is a word called economy. Which means in this case, if you invest, lets say, 1000 gc in one hour of training, but get only back 100 gc, you make a loss. Nobody forces you to do that, its your very own choice, if you want to do that or not. On the other hand, if you just fight creatures you can beat with cheap armor, you might earn some gc. Thats the opposite of a loss. People see that PK/training has once more got more expensive and the drops dont increase to reflect this . If you want to have a stable market and a good rate of items leaving (breaking) and entering the game ( made items ) then people need an income to pay for them items ..no ? (which doesnt include 10 hours on lupines) See, a market needs ppl who are able to understand that paying more gc than they earn is going to be a loss. If ppl dont understand that, but still pay more money than they earn, no surprise, that they will complain. And finally run out of money. But thats not a problem of the game, thats a problem of the players who just dont understand that simple fact. If you lose too much money by doing something, just dont do it. And STFU. *end of economy lesson* Piper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entropy Report post Posted April 22, 2008 *calm voice* You know, son, there is a word called economy. Which means in this case, if you invest, lets say, 1000 gc in one hour of training, but get only back 100 gc, you make a loss. I disagree with that. Say you go to see a movie, and pay 7 bucks, and gain nothing. You didn't lose 7 bucks, you traded them in return for something (entertainment). So you paid something, but got something more valuble in return (because otherwise you wouldn't pay the 7 bucks to see a movie, as no one forces you to do so). In this case, you might lose 1Kgc and gain 100gc, but the outcome is positive (lots of exp). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
conavar Report post Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) But thats not a problem of the game, thats a problem of the players who just dont understand that simple fact A market needs people to have money or it stagnates , it needs a regular turnover of items or it stops to be a market When the game mechanics keep changing ( less drops, more breaks) then yes it is a problem with the game and not the players , If the break rates and drop rates were never changed then you might have an arguement .... son Edit: incase it comes over badly lol . that is not to say the game is in the wrong but just in the context where Pip blamed the players Edited April 23, 2008 by conavar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Piper Report post Posted April 23, 2008 The game mechanics keep changing every day. One day, all top fighters dont play/leave the game, next day, the top potioners/manuers/crafters/whatever arent online/dont play anymore. Or just come back and play. So the game mechanics are fine and good, the problem is the community. If no manuer is playing anymore, for example, the prize of leather pants might raise, or they would be even unavailable. And so does the market. Fighters lose stuff while fighting, others by doing other things. New stuff enters the game every day, since manuers/crafters/potioners/alchemists/whatever are training/doing their daily job. One day, a lot of fighters play and lose stuff, next day a lot of makers of items log on and make a lot of items. One day, there might be a special day, where you dont lose items, next day, its sun tsu day and you happily fight like hell and break a lot of stuff and are happy about the xp you get. (yes, i read radu's post while writing this one. And i somehow agree/disagree with him) Economy is, when you decide in this game, how much you want to pay for getting XP. If you want to risk your shiny armor and pay to replace it, fine. Your choice. If you complain about that, that its too expensive, your problem, nobody forces you to pay that much gc (armor/srs/HEs/etc) to get xp. its all up to you. But finally, its a fact, that nobody forces you to waste your money. *THAT* is really up to you, and i hate it somehow, if ppl post here, that they lose money. If you cant keep your purse closed, its at least not the problem of the game, seriously. Just my 2 euro cents. Piper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entropy Report post Posted April 23, 2008 Btw, there is something funny that I've noticed: Many players were saying: "omfg, I will stop fighting or go train on rats". Well, guess what: Maybe now you can move off the fluffies, and go train on monsters your level. Lots of people were staying on fluffies, partially due to the breaking rates of higher monsters. And a newsflash for some people: Most of the yeti trainers are unaffected by this change, because yetis always did damage to them regardlless of the armor. Same with the lower levels that were training on fluffies. If you always got damage from a monster, there is no change now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
conavar Report post Posted April 23, 2008 (edited) I 98% agree with your post Pip, but my point being when a games items are 95% aimed at the fighters isnt it good economic sense to make sure they have the money to replace said items when they break ? and IMO that is why a lot of people posted when the break rates changed to cost them more. (just being devils advocate) and like I said before I have lost less items and train in less expensive items since the update, so Im not worried about losing 2 aug pants and 1 iron helm on 300 fluffs @ Ent. very true , if players need to train in steel/tit plate on fluffs then they have either reset ( which sux) or are training above there level or below hoping not to take damage , but I would say that it also affects PK which sadly you need to wear your best items to participate properly Edited April 23, 2008 by conavar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entropy Report post Posted April 23, 2008 @ Ent. very true , if players need to train in steel/tit plate on fluffs then they have either reset ( which sux) or are training above there level, but I would say that it also affects PK which sadly you need to wear your best items to participate properly How does it affect PKing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
conavar Report post Posted April 23, 2008 Doesnt the increased break rates / changes to formula make that much differance to PK ? ( never paid a lot of attention to if I take damage on every hit or not) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entropy Report post Posted April 23, 2008 Doesnt the increased break rates / changes to formula make that much differance to PK ? ( never paid a lot of attention to if I take damage on every hit or not) It might make a difference in theory, but in practice not really. The PK fights are usually short (less than 50 turns) and infrequent, except during the NDD. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
conavar Report post Posted April 23, 2008 (edited) Doesnt the increased break rates / changes to formula make that much differance to PK ? ( never paid a lot of attention to if I take damage on every hit or not) It might make a difference in theory, but in practice not really. The PK fights are usually short (less than 50 turns) and infrequent, except during the NDD. Theres me thinking people are worried about losing there expensive Dragon armours etc,( and I would say most PK hits do damage anyway, so no change there) but if its only going to impact on training then I cant see what the fuss is about, you can change your training method to suit the break rates. Edited April 23, 2008 by conavar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forever Report post Posted April 23, 2008 Wear a NMT, and who in their right mind trains in armor that doesn't even degrade? Jesus your asking for your 100k greaves to just break doing that. I remember training on cyclops (well serping them with a tit long but no matter) in leather with BRs Wasn't a lot of GC but the profit made was better then breakin my iron sets and CoL's and other precious "PK valuables" for some exp when I get about the same killing a lower level creature with 2 BR's per fight. I don't train any more not due to break rate but because I harvest more and am working on making archery high. I see people bitching every day about how archery sux because it's soooo damn expensive o.O When honestly, it's only expensive because they sell all their crap and then go out and buy 1k arrows etc etc to shoot at random crap. The way I train archery is different, I make a little bit of GC each day and buy me some arrows shoot till i'm out and log for the day. Now you are probably wondering how archery plays any roll into PK'ing and Armor reductions etc etc.... well its the principle. If you want to pour all your gold into some crap like titanium to train a freakign fluffy you are taking a huge risk at losing your armor. I don't think any one's armor should be invulnerable while training. Eh maybe thats just me. Don't throw away everything for the "faster method" take things a little at a time and you'll be just fine. For example, If you trained on ogres 100 ogres per day. Lets say that an ogre with you wearing aug sets leather steel shield and unic mdeallion with iron helm. Ok now say that an ogre busts a full set of armor every 50 ogres (give or take) Ok tallying up the GC cost that is about 2.6kgc for 2 sets. 100 ogres per day you could do 2k silver per day make just enough GC for the armor get a bit of exp and repeat the process. I found that doing a steady tedious job (harvesting mass amounts of an object or training for 8+ hour sessions) did nothing but make me bored. Might it be a little refreshing to mix things up a bit to balance out your loss / gain? Hope I made a bit of sense :S because I"m not good at explaining things through words that I"m thinking in my mind xD -Forever Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizzy Report post Posted April 23, 2008 Wear a NMT, and who in their right mind trains in armor that doesn't even degrade? Jesus your asking for your 100k greaves to just break doing that. I remember training on cyclops (well serping them with a tit long but no matter) in leather with BRs Wasn't a lot of GC but the profit made was better then breakin my iron sets and CoL's and other precious "PK valuables" for some exp when I get about the same killing a lower level creature with 2 BR's per fight. I don't train any more not due to break rate but because I harvest more and am working on making archery high. I see people bitching every day about how archery sux because it's soooo damn expensive o.O When honestly, it's only expensive because they sell all their crap and then go out and buy 1k arrows etc etc to shoot at random crap. The way I train archery is different, I make a little bit of GC each day and buy me some arrows shoot till i'm out and log for the day. Now you are probably wondering how archery plays any roll into PK'ing and Armor reductions etc etc.... well its the principle. If you want to pour all your gold into some crap like titanium to train a freakign fluffy you are taking a huge risk at losing your armor. I don't think any one's armor should be invulnerable while training. Eh maybe thats just me. Don't throw away everything for the "faster method" take things a little at a time and you'll be just fine. For example, If you trained on ogres 100 ogres per day. Lets say that an ogre with you wearing aug sets leather steel shield and unic mdeallion with iron helm. Ok now say that an ogre busts a full set of armor every 50 ogres (give or take) Ok tallying up the GC cost that is about 2.6kgc for 2 sets. 100 ogres per day you could do 2k silver per day make just enough GC for the armor get a bit of exp and repeat the process. I found that doing a steady tedious job (harvesting mass amounts of an object or training for 8+ hour sessions) did nothing but make me bored. Might it be a little refreshing to mix things up a bit to balance out your loss / gain? Hope I made a bit of sense :S because I"m not good at explaining things through words that I"m thinking in my mind xD -Forever I like your attitude Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigkav Report post Posted April 23, 2008 nmt dont do nothing for me :/ breaks sucks, i degraded my tit shield in ~40 mins on ogres reset training, these break rates just to insane :/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eternity Report post Posted April 23, 2008 I blame Oz, a fluff broke my greaves right after I read this topic. :| Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robotbob Report post Posted April 23, 2008 I haven't replied since as Entropy noted, it doesn't affect me. Plus, I train in aug and chain, and if I wear steel its to 'loot mobs' use a sword against chims and other monsters for drops. So my risk of breaking is still the same, it was always high. And if I was to fight fluffy rabbits, I could do this without a col or much armor anyway. So all this does is cause over-armored players on lesser monsters to experience the same break rates the rest of us experience on 'harder hitting' monsters. I think this 'event' is getting tied into a question from another thread: "What should be a fighter's source of income, alch, harvesting, or the skill itself?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Entropy Report post Posted April 23, 2008 nmt dont do nothing for me :/ breaks sucks, i degraded my tit shield in ~40 mins on ogres reset training, these break rates just to insane :/ Ok, you are banned for 1 month from the forums for this comment. Not only that it brings nothing constructive to the argument, but it's total bullshit. Here is a list with the items he broke in the last two months: Mon Feb 25 12:04:50 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather PantsMon Feb 25 19:04:30 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Mon Feb 25 19:24:50 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Armor Mon Feb 25 19:41:55 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Armor Tue Feb 26 06:17:23 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Armor Wed Feb 27 11:36:14 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Steel Greave Wed Feb 27 13:54:59 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Armor Wed Feb 27 20:52:21 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Thu Feb 28 11:32:42 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Sun Mar 2 09:34:47 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Armor Mon Mar 3 13:14:36 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Tue Mar 4 03:06:08 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Steel Shield Sat Mar 8 04:35:33 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Steel Shield Sat Mar 8 04:56:39 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Sat Mar 8 06:57:07 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Moon Medallion Sun Mar 9 19:18:16 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Mon Mar 10 19:54:58 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Fast Regeneration Cape Sat Mar 15 04:55:24 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Thu Mar 20 14:00:36 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Leather Gloves Fri Mar 21 02:08:21 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Steel Cuisses Sat Mar 22 15:12:18 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Leather Boots Sat Mar 22 16:07:17 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Titanium Plate Mail Sat Mar 22 22:04:45 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Cape of The Unbreakable Sun Mar 23 09:22:11 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Fast Regeneration Cape Sun Mar 23 10:34:36 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Steel Cuisses Sun Mar 23 13:50:02 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Fast Regeneration Cape Tue Mar 25 04:16:54 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Leather Boots Tue Mar 25 04:25:58 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Tue Mar 25 06:06:08 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Steel Shield Tue Mar 25 06:29:00 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Tue Mar 25 06:32:35 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Tue Mar 25 13:29:04 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Wed Mar 26 11:46:02 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Wed Mar 26 12:07:50 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Wed Mar 26 12:17:52 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Thu Mar 27 09:58:12 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Steel Shield Thu Mar 27 10:15:36 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Wed Apr 9 08:48:12 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Thu Apr 10 03:20:42 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Mirror Cloak Fri Apr 11 17:35:10 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Fri Apr 11 17:56:48 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Leather Boots Fri Apr 11 18:03:40 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Fri Apr 11 18:30:24 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Fri Apr 11 19:02:08 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Monster Magnetism Cloak Wed Apr 16 18:49:43 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Leather Boots Wed Apr 16 21:02:09 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Fire arrows Wed Apr 23 06:30:58 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Titanium Shield Wed Apr 23 06:51:26 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants Wed Apr 23 07:08:26 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Leather Boots Wed Apr 23 07:12:51 2008 Player BigkaV lost a Augmented Leather Pants So basically nothing new or more than what he broke in other days. But because he had ONE case of breaking a titanium shield, it must be that these break rates just to insane :/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ozmondius Report post Posted April 23, 2008 Uhm, I was totally satisfied with Ent saying he'd look at the data to see if there was a significant change in break rates and make an appropriate adjustment if so. I don't mind trading gc for exp--it makes sense, but it does go back to Robotbob's question on whether fighting, itself, could/should be self-supporting or nearly so. Entropy, I hope you will follow your first proposed course of action and make an adjustment if there is a problem. Thank you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cara Report post Posted April 23, 2008 If one really needs to train with tit shield instead of steel shield, I'm happy to see it break. If Ent is nice enough to do something about the break rate - cool. If not, I ain't crying my eyes out. Aug armor and no CoL ftw. (And maybe -maybe- if those aug sets break reasonably often, no one, except some naked pervs, can keep a spawn forever, which is good.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
baddude Report post Posted April 23, 2008 I don't see the breakage any worse than before. I have always broke lots of gear. back when chimeran wolf was strongest in game and i was training on it i broke so many iron plates but that is the price for fighting strong monsters. back then was no COL, SR didn't stack and no NMT in the game so we couldn't stay on spawn very long before going for restock. Training is way easier now with TS etc so if you don't like buying armor then i suggest working on your manu skill. as far as i remember the high end armor was made for PK not spawn camping so while training use training gear and save the good armor for PK. or PVP to work on your punching bag(def) level and I'll continue working on my att level on monsters without waiting for a spawn -x~~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korrode Report post Posted April 23, 2008 back when chimeran wolf was strongest in game and i was training on it i broke so many iron plates errr, well.. yeah u would have, all non-crit damage wouldn't have been being absorbed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites