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Placid

Do you like Diamonds?

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Fish Poo? o.O

 

Exactly, purposely done. Ways to get around bad language, but putting the point across. :)

Edited by Lexi

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Two thoughts:

 

1.) Placid, ooo... you really had me insanely jealous for 2.4M diamonds you didn't even have... and I do have nearing on 200K...

 

2.) Placid, your point has been proven in EL before, tho maybe as MrMind has been inactive for awhile until lately, maybe people forget. One person could have such a drastic control, and be so villified, and yet who tried to go against them?

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yes its a real concern if someone gets 2.4MK of diamonds, we should immediately form a group of good honest el citizens to discuss in deep this matter.

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Anyway placid, if someone ever manages to get 2 million of diamonds it will take him probably more than a year. If someone makes steel bars a year long he will also be able to put a new market price there. In real life if some oil country starts overproducing oil he also can set a new oil price. I don't actually see what you're trying to point out.

Actually, if they went at it RICH-style with a lot of harvesters, they could probably achieve it in a month or two. Though, diamonds make a poor example as flooding the market with them would only gain you a pittance for the time dedicated to them...

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With this amount of any (base) product, I have the power to force market prices down purely by selling them under their real value. It doesn't really cost that much to harvest this many of one thing (excluding the higher end harvestables that require additional items), except time and patience. I'm still making 2.4million GC by selling at 1GC each, and that's where the potential for ruining the market lies

There r some weak points in ur theory:

Why should some1, after putting so much time and effort, sell diamonds for 1gc? Its 3x less money that he could get, so it would mean that his 18-months work would be sold only as 6-months work(so he worked/played 1 year for absolutely nothing).

 

I sold once also many iron pl8 sets( ~40 iirc) when they were cheaper than now, around 8-9k for iron pl8 and 4-4,5k for greav/cuiss(market price). I sold all for not cheaper than 4k for iron greav/cuis and 8k for pl8, even tho it was big amount of items and it took me several weeks to sell them( used market channels, el forums marketplace and my trade bot to sell them).

 

U would not destroy market having 2,4m diamonds or even 10m diamonds, even assuming u could "play"10-20h/day for months/years. Ppl who would need diamonds would buy them from u at a cheaper price, and ppl who dont need them would buy from u too, only to sell them in the future making big profit on ur work.

I wrote "play" coz it would look more like work to u, than playing( play=fun and no fun in harving+muling so much of 1 thing for so long).

I harved myself ings for ~150k HE's( around 2 years ago so no cooldown so didnt have to buy+ mule pofs :) ) and it was crazy hard, took me several weeks and i hated it with all my heart lol, and im not a casual player :P

I mixed only 100k of them, needed 0,5-1L of vodka/day to not go crazy while mixing :) ( took me 7 days, so after that i couldnt look at mix button and vodka for a long time :( )

 

Btw. I have nothing against u, just wanted to make clear that ur theory is theory only and will stay like that forever B)

 

<sorry for typos, im sure i made many, just dunno where :P >

 

mp

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There r some weak points in ur theory:

Why should some1, after putting so much time and effort, sell diamonds for 1gc? Its 3x less money that he could get, so it would mean that his 18-months work would be sold only as 6-months work(so he worked/played 1 year for absolutely nothing).

You're missing the point entirely. The suggestion isn't that I would offer that price all the time, but when competitors are attempting to make a sale selling at ~3GC. With millions of a product in stock, I can afford to offer them at those prices.

 

I sold once also many iron pl8 sets( ~40 iirc) when they were cheaper than now, around 8-9k for iron pl8 and 4-4,5k for greav/cuiss(market price). I sold all for not cheaper than 4k for iron greav/cuis and 8k for pl8, even tho it was big amount of items and it took me several weeks to sell them( used market channels, el forums marketplace and my trade bot to sell them).

I don't see your point there.

 

U would not destroy market having 2,4m diamonds or even 10m diamonds, even assuming u could "play"10-20h/day for months/years. Ppl who would need diamonds would buy them from u at a cheaper price, and ppl who dont need them would buy from u too, only to sell them in the future making big profit on ur work.

I wrote "play" coz it would look more like work to u, than playing( play=fun and no fun in harving+muling so much of 1 thing for so long).

I harved myself ings for ~150k HE's( around 2 years ago so no cooldown so didnt have to buy+ mule pofs :) ) and it was crazy hard, took me several weeks and i hated it with all my heart lol, and im not a casual player :P

I mixed only 100k of them, needed 0,5-1L of vodka/day to not go crazy while mixing :) ( took me 7 days, so after that i couldnt look at mix button and vodka for a long time :P )

Again, you're missing another vital point. It doesn't have to be one person! MrMind and RICH mass produced thousands of products (the details of which i've forgotten. I don't have MrMind's story URL around) for sale on the market, and reached this potential. It is not difficult, nor hard to organise. The more people you have, the quicker it becomes.

 

Btw. I have nothing against u, just wanted to make clear that ur theory is theory only and will stay like that forever :(

You can never be sure that a theory will never become practice. Big mistake!

 

This is exactly the sort of posts that I wanted to muster. The intention of this is to stir discussion (and wishfully thinking, change) about the market and the game's systematical design flaws. So thank you for your reply.

 

This game is rapidly outgrowing itself and the shoddy design flaws need to stop being ignored and dealt with.

 

Edit; here's the URL for those interested in MrMind's attempt at economic ruin: http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24738

Edited by Placid

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If you'd sell them at 1gc, I'd buy them all. Then I'd be the one having control over the diamond market, so I would raise the price to 2gc (which is still way lower than other people's prices) and make a fortune.

 

More on the topic - yes, you'd be able to exert power over the market, so long until your stock is sold out, then things will settle again. Because of unlimited resources, the base price will always be what people think that their time is worth. If a majority of people start harvesting diamonds, then the price will drop. Since there are other ways to get more experience, more money and more fun, I doubt this will happen in a scale large enough to change market prices permanently. It's much more likely that tweaking any other game parameter is going to affect that price (i.e., diamonds required for some new item, a new great harvesting spot, a special item you can only get while harvesting diamonds, something along those lines).

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the shoddy design flaws need to stop being ignored and dealt with.

 

Like what? Diamonds are 3 emu, take a long time to harvest, require a decent level, and they are a good distance from storage.

I think this is a pretty good design without having a hard limit on the amount harvested.

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the shoddy design flaws need to stop being ignored and dealt with.

 

Like what? Diamonds are 3 emu, take a long time to harvest, require a decent level, and they are a good distance from storage.

I think this is a pretty good design without having a hard limit on the amount harvested.

Not the design flaws in Diamonds, you imbecile, but the flaws that allow unlimited harvesting, no dynamic market control such as limited NPC sale/purchases. The list goes on.

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I'm not sure how a realistic economy can be considered flawed - disruptive market forces are the driver of a dynamic economy, and aren't uncommon in real life. Unlimited production is actually the rule rather than the exception, with the few industries with extremely limited productions (petroleum, gold), or artificially imposed quotas (milk, grain) becoming commodities, while the rest are determined by market forces. There is nothing at all to stop me from crashing the local real estate market, or undercutting the margins of local businesses by selling cheap lumber, and there's even a local milk war going on now where the business nearest the dairy plant has begun selling at the minimum price, undercutting its competitors by 26%.

 

Things like limited harvesting and dynamic NPC prices seem more like design flaws in my opinion, because they serve only to subvert a player-based economy by introducing artificial scarcity and supporting dumping, eventually making the player economy as much of a joke as in other games. (Ever played runescape? Limited harvesting and dynamic prices are exactly how they created an economy where the entire exchange of goods runs between players and NPC shopkeepers, with only the most valuable of items actually changing hands between players.) Instead, the best approach to me seems to be to lessen the reliance on NPCs by reducing the necessity of dumping by further splitting the more valuable items into components, in order to reduce the amount of excess goods produced by leveling skills. At present, as raw materials are a minority in the market behind secondary, tertiary, and even quaternary goods (I believe the production of secondary goods is often tied into the harvesting of raw materials?), it seems almost useless to consider reducing their flow into an economy where what problems do occur are about two steps up the chain.

Edited by crusadingknight

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Like what? Diamonds are 3 emu, take a long time to harvest, require a decent level, and they are a good distance from storage.

I think this is a pretty good design without having a hard limit on the amount harvested.

Not the design flaws in Diamonds, you imbecile, but the flaws that allow unlimited harvesting, no dynamic market control such as limited NPC sale/purchases. The list goes on.

 

The design elements I pointed out do a good job of regulating the amount of raw materials in the game, I was just using your example of diamonds. They apply to all harvestables more or less.

I would like to see anybody even try to amass so much of something as to affect the market in ways you describe, it's nearly impossible.

 

Limiting harvesting is a bad thing, it would artificially stifle production and, in my opinion, make the game less fun. Remember, this is a game and it's supposed to be fun.

 

Adjustable NPC prices could be a good thing, but is the topic of another thread.

 

P.S. Its hard to respect your opinion when you use language like that.

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I too disagree that the market can be controlled in such a way. 2.4mil/infinity does not even equal 1% of the potential that is available.

 

The only way such things ruin the market is if the other sellers in the market panic instead of taking advantage of the opportunity. You sell at 1gc fine they still sell at 3gc and whenever you are selling they buy them all. They could even harv something else and sell that for normal price and buy what you are selling.

 

As highlighted by Mr. Mind all sorts a new players were taking advantage of the low prices which also meant it was a great time to start an alt character.

 

There was lack of cooldown which affects most production to some extent at this point in time.

 

2.4mil diamonds would take 2000 hours+ to harvest based on the 1200 per hour someone mentioned. At 10 hours a day that is still 200 days and if that is how you choose to make you gc then go for it. 3600 gc in value per hour is okay however there are many other resources that can be harved for more value per hour than that.

 

The game is growing and because the game is growing then antics of Mr. Mind and those who would try to emulate him will have less and less of an ability to affect the market.

 

Back in the early days many players gained benefits that new players today would drool to have access to.

 

The market is maturing and seems to be becoming very self regulating.

 

Besides if you want to sell all your hard work underpriced then it save everyone else from wasting their time doing it. They can get on with more fun things and just be glad that diamonds or whatever else are now easily available. Eventually the stock will get used up or not depending on how you release it but if you try to over sell the price players can just go harv it themselves.

 

The reason that irl price wars start existing is that holding onto stock makes it cost more and therefore lose value. This does not exist in this game everyone can put in the work they need if they want to reach a goal and there is no reason they can't just put stock on hold. They can go it alone if they want or work with their guild. If they choose they can be part of the market place.

 

If some group decided to truly try to ruin the market they would need to have more player hours than everyone else in the game to do it and even then it would likely have to be much greater than all the others player hours due to the existence of the npcs. Maybe Rich had this for a time and with the exitence of some of the advantages that existed it was sustainable for a while. At this point in time a much stronger case than what Mr. Mind +Rich did in the past will have to be provided before I start getting concerned about the future of the market.

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it would be so easy to fix this problem if npcs would just buy everything(for decent prices) then you would have to be nuts to sell stuff lower than npcs could buy it for nobody would sell that low because they could sell to the npc.

Edited by sirdan

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It is funny that the lilac bushes never get picked over. Poor plants. :)

 

I was looking at the other thread. If people didn't make up evil schemes it might not be as fun. And you could always do thinks like boycott. But it's all hypothetical in this case since you didn't really get that many diamonds. You trickts us!

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it would be so easy to fix this problem if npcs would just buy everything(for decent prices) then you would have to be nuts to sell stuff lower than npcs could buy it for nobody would sell that low because they could sell to the npc.

 

This was mentioned many times, but never happened. Must be a good reason for it. NPC prices can't solve the problem of its own, people would just less interact between them, and that's not the point of MMO, is it?

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