Negative Perk discussion

[Guest Enyo]

Just remove negative perks alltogether. Reset all those chars who took them and give them all the PP's their OA specifies.

 

189110[/snapback]

 

 

sounds like a good plan...........i agree

[The_Piper]

And remove the bagjumpers perk (MM) too. Would save us a lot of trouble.

 

Piper

[Guest Enyo]

And remove the bagjumpers perk (MM) too. Would save us a lot of trouble.

 

Piper

189130[/snapback]

 

i totally agree.. then maybe i can sell some capes.. but it's a bit discouraging when i see some mods and i won't mention names actually encourage noobs on the noob channel to get the MM perk as opposed to buying a cloak.. i think that's wrong and they mods should remain neutral on those issues.. but....... that's another story, lol.. sorry for going offtopic.

[Kami]

And remove the bagjumpers perk (MM) too. Would save us a lot of trouble.

 

Piper

189130[/snapback]

 

I to believe that the MM Perk is one of the sole reasons that this game is unbalanced.

 

But I wouldn't call it the "bagjumpers' perk." Rather it's "The Free Resources" Perk as if helps just about anyone who wants free Stuff and they don't want to work for it.

[goatsgomoo]

but it's a bit discouraging when i see some mods and i won't mention names actually encourage noobs on the noob channel to get the MM perk as opposed to buying a cloak..

Well, generally new players can't afford the cloak. So either make the cloak *much* more common, or keep the MM perk in.

Either that, or do what Alderan said. I kinda liked the old system, and with a bit of improvement (Nexuses actually have a use, you need more than just gc and beaver furs) it would be much better than the PP one.

[scarr]

evry1 can afort items this days.. MM cape is 4k or so ..thats few hour harvest liliacs or fruit -_-

[bkc56]

But I wouldn't call it the "bagjumpers' perk." Rather it's "The Free Resources" Perk as if helps just about anyone who wants free Stuff and they don't want to work for it.

189145[/snapback]

I'm not sure I agree with this. One of the early things I learned in the game was that if I wanted to make any serious progress harvesting (which leads to potions and essence) I needed the MM perk so I could get into areas with monsters. Once I had enough money to buy capes, I still wanted it so I could wear the excavator cape and still be safe in some of the caves (you can't wear them both).

 

Now that my att/def is higher, I may not need MM anymore. Yea, it would be nice to be able to "sell it back" for some fee and get the PPs back, but that's OK. I made the decision early that I needed it and was willing to expend the PPs to get it. The advantage it gave me early in the game is worth it to me. It took too much effort to get where I am so I'm not inclined to reset just to get those few PPs back.

 

And I'll agree with the above post about how newbies have no clue about the PP system. I was there, totally mis-used my PPs, and had to do a reset once some players told me more about how it worked (and most importantly, about which attributes weren't implemented and a waste of PPs). As a new player you simply have no idea how best to use them.

[Aislinn]

Well, generally new players can't afford the cloak.

189148[/snapback]

Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? The mm perk is like giving new players a free pass to everything. You aren't supposed to be able to do everything your first week here.

[Mar(c)]

the best solution is to take out the PP system entirely. (...) so obviously nobody likes it the way it is. The best way is just to take it out of the game.

188936[/snapback]

the PP system needs some major changes, and I think it would just be easier to just go back to the old system instead of messing with this new one that no one is ever gonna be happy with.

188994[/snapback]

Sorry, these are bs arguments -- not ment to be offensive -- because (1) you can't just state that nobody likes the PP system in a discussion about negative perks, and (2) if some system isn't entirely right yet, it is not instantly a reason to go back to a previous system. (Btw, I don't dislike the PP system, although I do dislike the negative perks system. :glare:)

 

 

sure, the old system needed some improvement, but it was a lot better than this PP system

188974[/snapback]

the old system needed a lot of changes too, but it was still better than the PP system =\

188994[/snapback]

Buying stats (paying gc e.g. to be stronger) a good system?? No way!

 

 

I recently reset, and in rebuilding my character, I had to spend 21 picks on my nexii alone. Now, I understand that I shouldn't have a realistic expectation to do everything, but this isn't exactly "not forcing classes", either.

189021[/snapback]

You're contradicting yourself here -- the ability to #reset actually contributes to this system of "not forcing classes". Do you want to "change class"? Just #reset, distribute future gained pp's differently, and work on your new profession's skills.

 

 

Just remove negative perks alltogether. Reset all those chars who took them and give them all the PP's their OA specifies.

189110[/snapback]

If all characters who took negative perks get the opportunity to redistribute all their pickpoints, it would be fair to give those without any negative perks the very same opportunity. Suggestion: a one-time-use command #redistribute (which first lists your current pickpoint distribution). Mandatory for the ones who get a negative pickpoint level after removing the pp's they spent on negative perks.

 

 

... MM perk ...

The mm perk is like giving new players a free pass to everything.  You aren't supposed to be able to do everything your first week here.

189173[/snapback]

Exactly, the MM perk is comparatively the cheapest of the positive perks, by far. Especially when training a/d isn't much of a priority for you. It's the first perk I've spent my pickpoints on as soon as I was able to afford them after last year's big crash/wipe -- and actually, it's the only one. If positive perks will stay, a better price would be 8 or 10 pp's.

 

 

and of course no trade with storebots because they are antisocial, they could harvest only and no transaction(trade) with other ANY character.

188669[/snapback]

Indeed, antisocial perk is the worst of the negative perks! That is, it's very clearly from before the bots era. If only the antisocial flag was visible for the clients... I'd be a supporter of blocking anti-socials from buying/selling at store bots. The antisocialness doesn't stand for "inability to communicate with shop NPC's", it stands for "you're really selfish to get those 10 pp's and expect the community to help you get your stuff anyway". And yes, I'm exaggerating here, but you get the point.

 

 

Ok, If people know me, they probably know I do not like negative perks and honestly I think they should be taken out of the game and a few of the normal perks lowered. Anyway I am curious what everyone else thinks here.

188612[/snapback]

I wouldn't mind getting rid of them either, or at least of the ones which don't affect gameplay regardless of your profession (I Can't Dance and Gelatine Bones don't affect non-fighters, Godless don't affect atheists in the current God system).

 

 

(A lot's been said, so I wanted to give my opinion too -- didn't know it was gonna be that long...)

Edited August 19, 2005 by Mar(c)

[Arnieman]

Nice to know at least part of my post wasn't thrown out. I get so fed up with people who post that they want ideas, and refuse to even look at new ideas - if all you want is parrots of your idea, say so.

You're contradicting yourself here -- the ability to #reset actually contributes to this system of "not forcing classes". Do you want to "change class"? Just #reset, distribute future gained pp's differently, and work on your new profession's skills.

189209[/snapback]

True, #reset may in a way contradict my argument. However, even so, if you #reset, then you are pretty much forced into a new class in that case. There is no real freedom to pursue everything if you so chose, which proves that "no forced classes" is a lie. The only way #reset affects this is allowing you the chance to get forced into another class.

 

As for MM perk, which seems to have become the new topic, keep the perk or toss the capes. Personally, I think the perk should cost a bit more in PPs, or be level dependent. However, if you can wear a cape that repels off monsters, it only makes sense that you might have the ability to repel them innately. Heck, in that case, make all perks into capes only - works under the same logic as taking out the MM perk without taking out the cape.

[Aislinn]

1. Nexii points cost too much to really do anything.

In the past, I heard it trumpeted as the triumph of this game that we "didn't force classes".  It has been my recent work on my character that has given light to this lie, at least to me.  I recently reset, and in rebuilding my character, I had to spend 21 picks on my nexii alone.  Now, I understand that I shouldn't have a realistic expectation to do everything, but this isn't exactly "not forcing classes", either.  My thought, rework the nexii at least semi-separate from pickpoints, or give up on the unforced classes fallacy.

189021[/snapback]

You're contradicting yourself here -- the ability to #reset actually contributes to this system of "not forcing classes". Do you want to "change class"? Just #reset, distribute future gained pp's differently, and work on your new profession's skills.

189209[/snapback]

Marc, you aren't getting the point. This is my huge problem with the nexuses and pp's as well. Changing professions and starting to work on a new profession is NOT the same as "not forcing classes". Having to work on one profession at a time most definitely IS forcing classes. I agree with Arnieman 1000% here. I want to do it all at the same time, and be able to do it all well. That would truly be "no forced classes".

[Mar(c)]

I disagree.

 

With "no forced classes", we're talking about "Eternal Lands has no fixed classes or professions, so you can always do new things and develop new skills without having to create a new character!" (from EL home page), right? I've always read that as not having to choose a class/profession at the moment of creating your character, as opposed to various other games with classes.

 

Of course you can do everything you want -- as long as you don't expect to reach the top of the world in every profession. So no, you really are not forced to one class, you can choose to have a few professions and become really good at those, or you choose to do all at the same time but at an average level.

 

To do all professions at the same time, and to be able to do them all well, wouldn't that undermine the mmorpg, especially the rp part of it? Wouldn't it be boring if after a while everyone would be "equal", in this sense?

Edited August 19, 2005 by Mar(c)

[Arnieman]

To do all professions at the same time, and to be able to do them all well, wouldn't that undermine the mmorpg, especially the rp part of it? Wouldn't it be boring if after a while everyone would be "equal", in this sense?

189250[/snapback]

depends what you intend to roleplay. I should be able to roleplay the semi-self sufficient character, shouldn't I?

 

Then again, #reset isn't an end all, it's a horrible waste of time if you get good stats, and then *poof* you have to build it again. Plus, as it is now, how do you explain that someone can mine titanium after only 5 well-spent pickpoints?

 

I don't pretend everyone should be equal, but at the very least, there needs to be the option to work hard to be able to do what you choose. As it is now, spend a few points, and you can do whatever. There needs to be actual work to it, and the option to work to whatever you choose, without having to #reset and start over.

 

Then again, there was the suggestion once you should be able to spend 30 pps in one nexus, and have a near legendary status in that skil... my opinion, if you were to spend that many pps in one nexus, it should come with its own straight jacket.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Arnieman

[Aislinn]

I disagree.

 

With "no forced classes", we're talking about "Eternal Lands has no fixed classes or professions, so you can always do new things and develop new skills without having to create a new character!" (from EL home page), right? I've always read that as not having to choose a class/profession at the moment of creating your character, as opposed to various other games with classes.

I fail to see any difference in choosing at the moment of conception and 3 days into the game when placing pp's is happening.

Of course you can do everything you want -- as long as you don't expect to reach the top of the world in every profession. So no, you really are not forced to one class, you can choose to have a few professions and become really good at those, or you choose to do all at the same time but at an average level.

 

To do all professions at the same time, and to be able to do them all well, wouldn't that undermine the mmorpg, especially the rp part of it? Wouldn't it be boring if after a while everyone would be "equal", in this sense?

189250[/snapback]

But that is how I would choose to play, that IS my rping part of it. I have never, in rl or here in EL, seen myself as a one-skill wonder. I like doing a variety of things. And why would it be boring? I think it's more boring to only do a couple skills to obscenely high levels, although I am sure some people would still choose to be mega fighters and not care about alchemy, and vice versa.

[Kami]

Here's an Idea regarding the Nexus System. I think that we should just exclude the Nexus System from the PP System entirely, but instead, our Nexus Level should directly reflect The current corresponding Skill and automaticly increase every so many Levels of that skill. Afterall, One's Experince in a skill is basicly a Personal Mathimatical represention of one's understanding and Knowledge of that Skill. That, in my oppinon, is the basic idea of what a "Nexus" is.

 

For example, every 7 +3 Levels or so of a skill (say Harvesting) we gain, our Nexus should also rise 1 point. Logical, right? Like At:

 

Harvesting Level 7 = Inorganic Nexus 1

Harvesting Level 10 = Inorganic Nexus 2

Harvesting Level 23 = Inorganic Nexus 3

Harvesting Level 39 = Inorganic Nexus 4

Harvesting Level 58 = Inorganic Nexus 5

Harvesting Level 80 = Inorganic Nexus 6 (if expanded that far)

 

[The Rate of Growth for each Skill would vary.]

 

This would both make it Experinced Based and Leave room for further Growth beyond 5 Nexus Levels. Then, each player would still be able to do anything in the Game but Working towards a certain Nexus of that would require far more diligance then being an all-rounder and more difficult then just raising one's Overall. Plus, there's no pain of Loss of a Reset since no one will reset.

 

Of course, why would you need Nexus then if we have Level Requirements? Well, Nexus might be used for other things as well. Like NPC Quests and Books requirements or even effecting the Success/Failure Rates or even work in Unison with another Nexus to add to a player's Abilities and Skills. (Just brainstorming)

 

[Though, The Fighting System may be even yet Trickier.]

 

Alright! So it's not the best idea but I really don't like having to buy Nexuses. It doesn't fit the game and basing it on Pick Points can adversely effect the game. We should earn them through direct "Hand's On" work and earning them by Leveling or maybe through NPC "Training" is more desirable.

 

 

Then, once the Perk system is removed in favor of a more "Incorprated, Indepth" System, that'll only leave the PP System to cover the Attributes. With a Little reworking, the PP system could possibly remain to handle Player Attributes Or it could be removed entirely for something Better.

 

What do you guys think?

Edited August 20, 2005 by Kami

[GreenGanjaKing]

to be honest i dont think there is anything wrong with the perks....they all are fine both possitive and negative.....it is pretty simple...if you dont like them....DONT GET THEM.....and lowering the amount of points given would be homo for basically the same reason....if anything a few should be raised in both catagories (for example:self destruct, hellspawn, antisocial, and MM) considering hs is annoying as hell and anti makes money hard to get....selfdestruct any newb can get that and MM is just fuel for bagjumping...but that is just my opinion

[Learner]

to be honest i dont think there is anything wrong with the perks....they all are fine both possitive and negative.....it is pretty simple...if you dont like them....DONT GET THEM.....and lowering the amount of points given would be homo for basically the same reason....if anything a few should be raised in both catagories (for example:self destruct, hellspawn, antisocial, and MM) considering hs is annoying as hell and anti makes money hard to get....selfdestruct any newb can get that and MM is just fuel for bagjumping...but that is just my opinion

189332[/snapback]

It is supposed to be annoying, thats why they are neg perks. What people are saying about them is there isn't enough negative compared to how many PP's you get by taking them.

[TheNaKun]

Both types of perks are fine, I have no trouble at all.. Then again, I started like, 3-4 days ago. The only two times I've used negitive were for getting to use my Titanium Steel Serpent Sword, and for the harvest perk, and I got the power hungry, and I can't dance (thank god for me reading this before choosing).

 

Anywho, I think that the perks are fine... Though Hellspawn must really blow.

[GreenGanjaKing]

It is supposed to be annoying, thats why they are neg perks. What people are saying about them is there isn't enough negative compared to how many PP's you get by taking them.

189333[/snapback]

i know that and what i am saying is they are fine the way they are....all are annoying (i know that to be the purpose)and they dont need to be anymore annoying or less points...if anything some should be more....and again that is just 1 of many opinions out there

[Drobus]

I disagree.

 

With "no forced classes", we're talking about "Eternal Lands has no fixed classes or professions, so you can always do new things and develop new skills without having to create a new character!" (from EL home page), right? I've always read that as not having to choose a class/profession at the moment of creating your character, as opposed to various other games with classes.

 

Of course you can do everything you want -- as long as you don't expect to reach the top of the world in every profession. So no, you really are not forced to one class, you can choose to have a few professions and become really good at those, or you choose to do all at the same time but at an average level.

 

To do all professions at the same time, and to be able to do them all well, wouldn't that undermine the mmorpg, especially the rp part of it? Wouldn't it be boring if after a while everyone would be "equal", in this sense?

189250[/snapback]

 

I agree on this. The current system lets you be, if you like, a 'Jack-of-all-trades' or a master of one(or a lesser master of a few, or whatever miix you want). If you choose to get the nexus points required to do multiple trades, then you will have lower physique/coordination, which will limit how much you can carry for those professions, thereby reducing your efficiency, or at the very least, you won't be as strong of a fighter for doing so. But you CAN pursue whatever trades you want, with or without reset. The fact that it is harder to be as good in multiple trades is IMHO a Good Thing.

 

There are issues with negative perks giving too many pp's for their negative conseqences. Here's what I think about the perk system:

 

Antisocial - Clearly gives too many pp's for its effect. -8 or even -6 would be better.

 

Gelatine Bones - I've never used this on a fighter type character. Obviously this is too many free pp's for

those who don't fight. Probably remove, because a non-fighting harvester/manu'er could

just take these points to pay for something useful like MM, and have a free point to boot.

 

Godless - Erm., this one is probably perfect. 20% bonus to XP in 3 skills is worth time and PP's in and

of itself, in the long run, so I consider it a painful one to take. Any less, and it wouldn't even

be worth considering.

 

Hellspawn - I would never take this(at any price, it would ruin the game). I could only see this as useful for

bots, or someone who is pk and wants to play 'King of the Hill' or something like that on a pk map.

 

I Can't Dance - I've never had this on a fighting character. I would imagine my comments about Gelatine

Bones apply here (free points for non fighters).

 

Power Hungry - No brainer, there's three of your Nexus points for whatever you do. This is good to have

but maybe it should make you eat 9 food per turn instead of 3. As it is, you can end up with

average 30 higher emu from these points, which if you fill with fruit, would take over 3 hours

to use up, as it is currently.

 

Most positive perks are fine, I think. Except MM.

 

MM - This should be removed or cost more(pp's and gold). Maybe 10 pps and 1000 gc or something.

 

 

Back to negative perks, they need some rebalancing, I think, but I would not object to outright removal of them, as long as it doesn't mean a total wipe. Give everyone the one time opportunity(requirement for those who had negative perks) to redistribute their pp's from OA without reset. MM might be ok as it is if people couldn't get the pp's for it for free from a negative perk that will have no effect on that particular character.

[Raisa]

I have read so many idea's and suggestions, some i like some i don't. But there is 1 thing i'd like to add to this discussion and that is the following:

 

I have the MM-perk and thats for the reason i just DON'T like to fight. I'm a crafter and i do need to get my recourses and for some reason the best places to get them are overwhelmed with monsters i cant handle with my a/d.

 

I took the perk so that i would be able to harvest with my exc cloak and don't have to wear an mm cloak.

 

Thats all,

 

huggels

Raisa

[Daxon]

Maybe they can modify the MM Perk to only work in caves and not open land/homes/castles/manors/etc? That'd need some major tuning to it though.. (KV's castle and rubies)

[Guest cordan]

IMHO the perks both pos and neg are fine as they are. It seems to me that the ones who have the biggest problem with the neg perks are the players who choose not to take them. Since they made the choice not to take them they should not whine about those of us who do. Everyone has the choice to take them or not and take both the good and the bad with that choice. I don't care for the idea of being forced to do anything specialy a reset and it seems that most are forgetting that when you reset you lose the original 5 pick points you start with at creation.

[Daxon]

Small note Cordan.. those first five pickpoints you have at the start came with the initial 3/3 a/d experience you have.. which equaled up to 5.

[Brom]

Here's an Idea regarding the Nexus System. I think that we should just exclude the Nexus System from the PP System entirely, but instead, our Nexus Level should directly reflect The current corresponding Skill and automaticly increase every so many Levels of that skill. Afterall, One's Experince in a skill is basicly a Personal Mathimatical represention of one's understanding and Knowledge of that Skill. That, in my oppinon, is the basic idea of what a "Nexus" is.

 

For example, every 7 +3 Levels or so of a skill (say Harvesting) we gain, our Nexus should also rise 1 point. Logical, right? Like At:

 

Harvesting Level 7 = Inorganic Nexus 1

Harvesting Level 10 = Inorganic Nexus 2

Harvesting Level 23 = Inorganic Nexus 3

Harvesting Level 39 = Inorganic Nexus 4

Harvesting Level 58 = Inorganic Nexus 5

Harvesting Level 80 = Inorganic Nexus 6 (if expanded that far)

 

[The Rate of Growth for each Skill would vary.]

 

I like this actually. For some reason no one commented on it yet. This would solve a lot of problems in EL.

1) New players doing things they should not be able to do yet

2) people boxing in plate armour with goblins and gargoyles

3) Better shows a persons level just by what they are wearing.

 

To name a few. It could use some tweaking. For example, according to this no one in the game currently could summon a fluffy rabbit and/or Chimera. So we may need to vary it for different nexsus's. It would allow more PP's which would decrease the need for negative perks. I like it. With some tweaking I would really love to see it implemented!

 

What do you think! It would make the high-level creation things rare again. Let me try and list some downsides.

1) Severe inflation of low-level eq

2) Player uproar at not being able to wear the things they just bought.

3) Summoning would become even more less popular

4) Many other games have a system like this.

 

Dispite the cons. I like it!