Bad Boy Points -- Measuring Criminality

[trollson]

After another bagjumping incident, I thought I'd post a suggestion I have been mulling over for a while now.

 

Personally, I would not mind thiefs, pickpockets, and the like, if they where part of the game -- if their actions could have consequences and their victims some means of recourse.

 

So how about a "Bad Boy" points approach?

 

As a characters BB count passes certain levels, they suffer ill effects -- for example, gaining the effect of "antisocial", lose access to storage, lose the abiltiy to trade altogether, etc. Character over some threshold (depending on map and area) could also be PKable. The threshold could be modifed for guild wars and other (character to character) factors.

 

If each character has a fixed number of entries in a "PK" list and "Buddy" list, then these would count as +1/-1 respectively to the named character's BB score.

 

(I use the term "PK" list since it's in common usage already; it does not mean that characters have a list of people they can PK anywhere in the game. A better term would be "Accusation" or "Enemy" list)

 

If you kill a character with a lower BB score, you gain 1 BB point.

 

If you are killed by a character with a higher BB score, you lost 1 BB point.

 

There would have to be some way to recognise inactive characters, and clear their PK/Buddy lists.

 

As described so far, this system could be abused, so needs more work to ensure fairness (or at least playability -- things are not always fair).

 

Negative BB points are postive Karma

 

Summary:

• Each mention in a Buddy list: -1 BB.
  
• Each mention in a PK list: +1 BB.
  
• Killing a character with lower BB score: +1 BB.
  
• Being killed by a character with higher BB score: -1 BB (effectively a transfer of BB, would affect and limit Vigilanties).
  
• Trading with a character with higher BB score: +1 BB.
  
• NPCs refuse to talk/trade with characters of higher BB score.
  
• Changes apply to a "BB Limit", current effective BB increase or decrease towards this limit by +/-1 BB /gameday (online).
  
• Characters do penance to lower BBs (cf. Prisons).
  
• Negative BB could be positive Karma.
  
• Only extreme cases reach global PK'able. But if a character has p!ssed that many people off, the MODs would probably have got involved earlier...
  

Edited August 7, 2005 by trollson

[sparhawk]

So your saying crimanals should have there own fixed class?howd you get ANYONE to agree?bagjumpers would just keep on going without joining any class and if put on it would most likely create a new char.

[trollson]

So your saying crimanals should have there own fixed class?h

185606[/snapback]

 

Who mentioned anything about classes? There would just be another attribute for Bad Boy / Kama points for each character. Nothing to do with classes here.

[sparhawk]

But if i were a bag jumper id create anouther char i think we should have bountys that are on their tag

Edited August 4, 2005 by sparhawk

[trollson]

But if i were a bag jumper id create anouther char

185611[/snapback]

 

To what ends? You can't trade between them (inc. bag trade), that would be illegal and ban-able.

 

There are ways to abuse this system as described. For example -- prevent people making lots of spam characters to fill their PK/Buddy lists, recognising inactive characters, etc.

 

Bounties -- If that means bounty to kill, we would need some proof or a trusted witness (could be provided thru the game). Still need to have the target PK'able, and not all bagjumpers go to PK fields. Otherwise could be implemented now by the players.

Edited August 4, 2005 by trollson

[sparhawk]

hmmm i think your ideas okay

Edited August 4, 2005 by sparhawk

[Alderan]

bagjumping and scamming are not against the rules, its just another way of playing the game! theres nothing wrong with role playing an evil character.

[ttlanhil]

bagjumping and scamming are not against the rules, its just another way of playing the game! theres nothing wrong with role playing an evil character.

186071[/snapback]

sure. and nothing wrong with roleplaying a bounty hunter, tracking down those evil doers either. player solutions to player problems.

[Aerowind]

We really need a karma system, since everyone complains about bagjumpers and stuff, a karma system would be the only solution, and it would take forever to implement...

[Alderan]

sure. and nothing wrong with roleplaying a bounty hunter, tracking down those evil doers either. player solutions to player problems.

186072[/snapback]

i agree with you 100%, but what trollson is suggesting is to penalize people for role playing bagjumpers or scammers.

[trollson]

what trollson is suggesting is to penalize people for role playing bagjumpers or scammers.

186093[/snapback]

 

Slightly more than that, it allows the players to collectively penalised antisocial characters, whether through bagjumping, scamming, or just unpleasant behaviour.

 

The problem with the current system is that you can't hunt down "evil" characters, unless they choose to go to a PK map. There is no real recourse for the victims other than to post in the Outlaws section of the forum, which has limited use.

 

The suggestion here would allow players to do the judging, with rising levels of penalities, upto PK'able, storage denial, and trade denial (making using a mule or lacky rely on bag trading -- susceptable to other bag jumpers...). Though as I implied, the outline isn't sufficient to prevent abuse (of the system described).

[Aislinn]

Sounds exactly like Learner's Other-Life. You ought to go check out his site

 

I do agree that as long as scamming and bagjumping is legal, there should be an equal player recourse to deal with it (not including mods or bans or locks, etc). However, I don't think that things like this that you mentioned:

As a characters BB count passes certain levels, they suffer ill effects -- for example, gaining the effect of "antisocial", lose access to storage, lose the abiltiy to trade altogether, etc. Character over some threshold (depending on map and area) could also be PKable.

should be done. All it takes is one player with a grudge against another to pay off a lot of people to add that person to their pk list, or BB list...totally abused and way less than fair, totally unacceptable imo.

 

Levels and perks and "official" stats or storage rights are not something other players should mess with. It should be something more along the lines of the players can lock the scammer in jail for a certain period of online ingame time, or can't trade with other players for a certain period of online ingame time, stuff like that.

[LadyReni]

Levels and perks and "official" stats or storage rights are not something other players should mess with. It should be something more along the lines of the players can lock the scammer in jail for a certain period of online ingame time, or can't trade with other players for a certain period of online ingame time, stuff like that.

 

I agree with Aislinn. A player who chose to playe a bad person (it is a rpg afterall), shouldn't be punished by game developers by making his life more difficult than the life of those who play good characters. That refers to actions that are legal in game of course , not to game rules breakers.

It is great that we have people who want to play the roles of outlaws, it makes game more challenging.

Note: rpg is not just leveling but playing a role , but that's maybe only my opinion. -_-

[gadai]

No offence but the majority of bag jumpers aren't roleplaying anything. They tend to be lazy, petty people who are not willing to work for things, preferring to steal from others.

 

While I don't doubt that there are *some* genuine roleplayers out these I'm sick of seeing roleplaying being used as a catch all excuse for antisocial behaviour in game.

 

<edit>

 

Btw - this is not intended to be an attack on the roleplayers - more power to them for roleplaying. It does frustrate/annoy me that a lot of 'bad boys' say 'I'm roleplaying' when it suits them but consistently fail to roleplay under other circumstances.

 

</edit>

Edited August 7, 2005 by gadai

[trollson]

I am aware that the system as briefly described would be open to abuse, and have said so in the previous posting. It is not impossible to avoid many problems though, but I was not intended to go into great depth.

 

To limit the effects of groups ganging up on an erstwhile innocent character -- don't apply the BB immediately. Rather, keep two scores -- a total BB (determined as above), and a current effective BB level. The current BB level would increase/decrease towards the total by one point per game day (1). Representing the news spreading through the community, be ware of this character.

 

I would hope that other players would respond appropriately if a character is being unfairly victimized. While Pk/Buddy lists would be private, arranging a mass hate campaign could not be kept secret.

 

(1) This would have to reflect time-ingame, but must not require the character to be logged in over the change of day, as per harvest experience, otherwise it too could be abused. The game time-of-day of log-out/disconnect would have to be recorded, and the BB incremented/decremented if the time-of-day at log-in is less than that recorded.

 

There is no player authority in the game to send a character to prison, and probably couldn't be. Instead a BB'ed character could reduce their total BBs by performing "community service" as a form of voluntary punishment. This of course would have to take the form of some mundane repetative task, rather than a time-out, which the player could just sit out (go and do something else). A previous discussion of prison systems and punishments can be found here.

 

Having a high BB should affect how the character is perceived by other characters and NPCs, which is why I suggested the effects listed in the original posting. The simplest generic model would be to give all NPCs, including the storage NPCs and Bots, a BB score. A character would not be able to trade or talk to a NPC with a lower BB score. This would gradually restrict who would be willing to interact with the assumed criminal, forcing them to the outskirts of society (more remote storage NPCs may have a higher tolerance). Denying them the use of a lacky character is more tricky, since trades can be initiated both ways (and there is always bag trades).

 

 

Also I have nothing against role-playing bad guys, quite the reverse! But you need the good guys to be able to have some reproach. With a BB system it would become legitimate to play a bad guy, since you would have to tread carefully between discovery and accusation, and your criminal intent. There could even be thief skills (pickpocket etc).

 

At the present a bad guy just dashes onto your communal bag and sits there laughing, since there is nothing the other players can do about it. That is not roleplaying.

Edited August 7, 2005 by trollson

[Grossbouff]

bagjumping and scamming are not against the rules, its just another way of playing the game! theres nothing wrong with role playing an evil character.

186071[/snapback]

 

As I already said, I see no problem playing an evil char, but then you have to face the consequences. Like in real life. Thats my opinion.

 

Grossbouff

[Kala]

If bag jumping and scamming are legal, then I think there should be an option to be a vigilante and PK anyone who's 'roleplaying' an evil character anywhere, but also being considered an evil character (vigilantes are people who fight crime without officially being police - they can be arrested for breaking laws while punishing bad people).

[Aislinn]

Also I have nothing against role-playing bad guys, quite the reverse!  But you need the good guys to be able to have some reproach....

 

...At the present a bad guy just dashes onto your communal bag and sits there laughing, since there is nothing the other players can do about it.  That is not roleplaying.

186157[/snapback]

I wasn't arguing that, I totally agree. I just don't think your approach is the way to go.

There is no player authority in the game to send a character to prison, and probably couldn't be.

This was an example. However, I don't see why there couldn't be a way to do this, maybe require a certain amount of people to agree and use a particular key to put this person in a jail. We have "jails" all over EL. Also see Kala's idea below.

If bag jumping and scamming are legal, then I think there should be an option to be a vigilante and PK anyone who's 'roleplaying' an evil character anywhere, but also being considered an evil character (vigilantes are people who fight crime without officially being police - they can be arrested for breaking laws while punishing bad people).

I also think this is a great idea to work on. Again it doesn't involve messing with official player stats and abilities.

[trollson]

...require a certain amount of people to agree and use a particular key to put this person in a jail.

Wouldn't this be even more open to abuse? A group over a certain size would be able to incarcerate whoever they wished. At least the BB model has accusors ('PK' list) and defenders (Buddy list) to serve as some sort of balance.

 

For the vigilante approach:

• Who and how are "evil" characters recognised or determined? This cannot be upto the vigilante, or it would be severly abused, and they are not likely to self-declare.
  
• Targets must be PK'able by at least the vigilante. Again, how is this determined?
  
• Does this leave justice in the hands of fighter-types?
  

I didn't think my approach messed around with any official player stats?

 

It adds one in the form of the BB/Karma scale, whose value is transient, and requires fixed length server-side PK/Buddy lists.

 

Beyond that, the effects can be mostly modelled through NPC interactions which are modified. No perks are involved (though I mention 'antisocial' as a representative effect).

 

The only major change suggested is PK'able status, which is not essential to the scheme and would only apply to extreme cases. PK'able status would also be needed for vigilantes, which would be supported in this case within the BB system.

[pennifuin]

is this an attempt to stop people behaving 'badly'?

 

if so, just think, without the bad guys, there wouldnt be any good guys:P

 

plus there wouldnt be any scandal OR anyone to whine about.

[gadai]

More, I think Pennifuin, that there is no player based system at the moment to punish criminality. Personally I think the idea of some of the roleplayers taking on the roles of 'Lords' for certain maps would be cool - the more civilised ones of course. Then they and they're authorised 'sherrifs' could be responsible for the rule of law and order on those maps (have a special pk ability or something).

 

<edit>

The Lords would of course have to be carefully chosen for fairness and trustworthiness

</edit>

 

This would provide a recourse besides posting in Outlaws for the victims and given the size of maps should allow the 'evil characters' a more then reasonable chance to evade capture (at worst they could always #beam).

Edited August 8, 2005 by gadai