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Entropy

PvP instances

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Lol which idea is elegant? Your original post idea or your idea of banning complainers? :P

 

Seriously, I would code it myself if I could, it's that important in my opinion. (the vote to kick option I mean)

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abused how? i'm just making suggestions like asked. can't count how many simple elegant ideas i've been made to leave by the wayside in favor of something more complicated w/ wanted/needed features. your idea is totally different from the random queue thing tho. i was making suggestions based on this post:

 

I hope that those who want random teams realize that there will be no way in hell to exclude 'dirty players' from instances. And I don't only mean in your team, I mean against your team too. If Korrode's idea gets implemented, then someone constantly starts broding people left and right, I will perma ban anyone who complains to me about it (or who will say that they won't go to instances anymore until the problem is solved).

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I think the fact there is such a high cost to using such a command would keep abuse away.

You kick a person, you're one man short. Really not something to use unless desperate.

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What about a command like

 

#avoid_pvp playernameX

 

each player can have up to 10 #avoid people on their list which could be viewed by #view_avoided. Having it limited to 10 or so then a player has to choose those they absolutely don't want to have on their team but keeps people from abusing the command and making it to where they can only go with the 3 or 4 people they like to stack the team.

 

If a certain player is avoided by you they can't be on your team but they can be on the opposing team i see no problem with that. If entering this situation you should be prepared for anything the other team throws at you like BroD etc.

 

And if a player has more then say 100+ or 200+ #avoid_pvp against them then the server banns them from pvp instance altogether.

 

Just a thought dunno what it would take to program but might be a way to deal with the potential of having a person on your team purposely trying to let you fail.

 

If a command like this is in place I would like both ideas about equally

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abused how?

 

You don't like someone, and you are matched with that person and a friend, you PM your friend and both vote him out. Then he can go in instances for days.

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but then you and your friend are down one person and will most likely lose the match. i guess i'm seeing it as something people would only use in 'dire' situations.

 

Oh and elf ninja has an interesting idea.

Edited by Nova

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I hope that those who want random teams realize that there will be no way in hell to exclude 'dirty players' from instances. And I don't only mean in your team, I mean against your team too. If Korrode's idea gets implemented, then someone constantly starts broding people left and right, I will perma ban anyone who complains to me about it (or who will say that they won't go to instances anymore until the problem is solved).

 

 

I am sure it will be a hell for you to listen to people complaining,just like it happens everyday but to ban someone who tries to get your attention about something that makes the game (PVP instances) look bad by the fact that one-more bad player/s are there to ruin the fun of all isnt really the answer. I am sure is as well a hell to code this whole idea,which i think is great for the game-making somehow PK alive again, but if its not possible to do from the beginning as much as possible for this to happen in a smooth way for all players to participate of course you will hear everyday some complains(maybe more :unsure: ). But Nova and Aislinn idea of a command to kick the "bug" players isnt a bad one, yeah more to code. But look at how many people are waiting for this to happen, to have a bit more fun in the game. And i tent to go with both ideas , your and mr.K thou... i like the random thing more and i am giving here just a small example: how can a team of my a/d-p/c can go against a team of Mufosa or Korrode :confused: is they choose to be in same team. At least i know when random it was random and i cant argue/cry about it! :whistle: (well i will cry in pm's with my friends but thats life,i need to learn).

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How about instead of banning people who complain, you ban people who enter instances with their only intention being to hurt/annoy their own team. It can come under rule 25. No one will do it if they know they'll get banned for it, problem solved.

EDIT: I'll try and come up with a fair systematic way :P

 

As for the BRoD, if it's so bad, it should be removed from the game. Otherwise, what Dugur said; everyone will just have to use cotu/mage skirt, they have to for PK already anyway.

Edited by Korrode

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First choice for me would be to see both ingame since as was pointed out, they are totally different and each has a different goal. We're comparing apples and oranges here.

 

However, in my opinion, Entropy's idea isn't different enough from a basic "pk guild vs pk guild" event in KF [where basically the power team(s) have already been formed (pk guilds)] from what we have now to warrant choosing it over Korrode's as an only option.

 

 

I agree 100% with this statement.

 

I hope that those who want random teams realize that there will be no way in hell to exclude 'dirty players' from instances. And I don't only mean in your team, I mean against your team too. If Korrode's idea gets implemented, then someone constantly starts broding people left and right, I will perma ban anyone who complains to me about it (or who will say that they won't go to instances anymore until the problem is solved).

Mage skirt/cotu easily fixes this problem.

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First choice for me would be to see both ingame since as was pointed out, they are totally different and each has a different goal. We're comparing apples and oranges here.

 

However, in my opinion, Entropy's idea isn't different enough from a basic "pk guild vs pk guild" event in KF [where basically the power team(s) have already been formed (pk guilds)] from what we have now to warrant choosing it over Korrode's as an only option.

 

 

I agree 100% with this statement.

 

What the fuck?

How is Korrode's idea ANY different than how PK is now, besides for the fact that people are too lazy to come up with a queue system by themselves? And I guess you and Aislinn did not bother to read what I posted anyway, because ou would have seen quite a few differences.

 

How about instead of banning people who complain, you ban people who enter instances with their only intention being to hurt/annoy their own team. It can come under rule 25. No one will do it if they know they'll get banned for it, problem solved.

 

No, if someone complains about something I SAID will happen, and they said nvm, do it this way anyway, then that person is not playing the game for playing, but for pissing me off (and wasting my time). So they should be removed from the game ASAP.

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Because Korrode's idea allows for any easy way to pk with different people. A random queue allows easy access for a fun time. I mean as much as you hate it Ent, people are lazy. They will be a lot more prone to click a button to queue without having to find friends online that are not already doing something. If you don't have friends, queue and you'll find some. I mean there is no doubt that both systems will be used, but the random queue would be used much more.

 

And Aislinn and I did read your suggestion. You didn't read her comment. She's not saying that there is not anything different, she's saying that there's not ENOUGH different from the basic pk system that we already have. One of the few differences really would be that the pk instance would provide a different style of pk such as capture the flag etc (which could also be established in random queue). As it stands, I can ig a guild, talk trash enough to get the into pk with my guild vs their guild and have what your suggesting to a degree.

 

And ffs, the problem with "omfg i wanna go with my friends" could be easily fixed in a random queue if you code it where people in the same guild are queued as a "team". If the instance is a 3v3 and more than 3 people queue in the same guild, make it where the first three enter and the others stay in queue line.

Edited by Kidberg

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I think my idea has significant, massive difference from the "guild PK" that doesn't even happen anyway.

Not only that those different games are totally different than 'normal' PK, but you get a certain number of lives as well, and you can't resupply. Furthermore, that won't be already existing guilds, but new guilds created especially for this. There is nothing like this in the game, except for some player made events, which were pretty popular. My idea brings someone that isn't. Korrode's idea just makes it more easy for the lazy people to do something they can do right now too.

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I read just fine.

I stand by my statement. We already do events that are a close match to what you are looking at in your version of a pk instance. Players love this. We do not have anything similar to what Korrode proposed, which has been received very positively by the playerbase. Players sound like they love this idea as well. So as such, since we CAN, albeit not in an automated manner, or on a special map, or with multiple lives, do what you proposed already, my point was it makes more sense to implement Korrode's idea. (Ideally first, since I think both should be implemented :P )

 

That is not my only reason for promoting Korrode's idea but just an explanation of this most recent issue. (I am not going to repeat myself and others restating why I believe we do not having anything like Korrode's idea ingame, and why I believe it is a great thing to implement.)

 

Second issue: When you first made EL, you must have thought to yourself: "There will probably be people who come in here and make trouble we won't be able to handle. Therefore, I will add to the code a way to mute, kick, lock, ban these people so they can't come back and make more trouble, and ruin everyone else's good time."

 

So seeing that we suspect along the same lines that the occasional nasty griefer will show up that we can't handle just with words, why not put that same concept into play here and add a vote-kick command, or similar? What is different in the thought process here?

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I read just fine.

I stand by my statement. We already do events that are a close match to what you are looking at in your version of a pk instance. Players love this. We do not have anything similar to what Korrode proposed, which has been received very positively by the playerbase. Players sound like they love this idea as well. So as such, since we CAN, albeit not in an automated manner, or on a special map, do what you proposed already, my point was it makes more sense to implement Korrode's idea. (Ideally first, since I think both should be implemented :P )

 

If I didn't know you, I'd seriously think you are trolling. You mean my idea can almost be done by players, but Korrode's idea can't? Are you really serious?

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I read just fine.

I stand by my statement. We already do events that are a close match to what you are looking at in your version of a pk instance. Players love this. We do not have anything similar to what Korrode proposed, which has been received very positively by the playerbase. Players sound like they love this idea as well. So as such, since we CAN, albeit not in an automated manner, or on a special map, do what you proposed already, my point was it makes more sense to implement Korrode's idea. (Ideally first, since I think both should be implemented :P )

 

If I didn't know you, I'd seriously think you are trolling. You mean my idea can almost be done by players, but Korrode's idea can't? Are you really serious?

Not by random players on their own, obviously not. But generally speaking, yes, we have big pk events like this. With teams, rules, capture the flag, mods making sure non-contestants aren't interfering, etc. There is a new one posted in Events, something Thelinor, and we've had others. Korrode has run excellent ones, as well as Vanyel.

 

I just don't see what you are suggesting and what Korrode is suggesting as being on the same page or things that should be competing with each other for implementation. How is it people can immediately, or close to it, get paired up for a quick pk skirmish with people they don't know but who are interested too? It protects a player, usually, sometimes obviously luck of the draw will make a power team, from being blasted over and over by the same well oiled team machine. It gives a quick fun fast blast into the pk world, with little pain and the randomness will match you up with people you might not even know. And as Korrode said, if it goes badly, it isn't going to last all day and you sign right back up and do it again with a new bunch you get assigned to. Plus you aren't going to lose all your stuff! Human nature just doesn't allow for that in practice, even if 20 people were standing there, people would tend to pick what they know. This forces the randomness and from the sounds of it, people are interested in this.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative and contrary, but I think this is a great idea and I just can't see why you don't like it. It shouldn't be an "either/or" conversation here. Liking this doesn't mean we can't like your version too.

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Those events are pretty rare and requires at the very least one person to host them. It would be impractical to have a few of those every day, because no one has the resources to spend hours organizing and watching them. If we had a lot of money, we could just hire event planners to do that every day, for different time zones too. But of course, we don't.

 

Korrode's idea can be implemented 90% with just a bot. The only things the bot can't implement are teleporting the players to the instance, and making sure others won't interfere. Except for that, the bot can do the match making and tell players what the teams are. Then the teams can go to KF and start their fight.

 

[edit]

In fact, a bot with admin privileges could do all those things. Of course, it would have to be hosted by an mod/admin to prevent abuse.

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Those events are pretty rare and requires at the very least one person to host them. It would be impractical to have a few of those every day, because no one has the resources to spend hours organizing and watching them. If we had a lot of money, we could just hire event planners to do that every day, for different time zones too. But of course, we don't.

 

Korrode's idea can be implemented 90% with just a bot. The only things the bot can't implement are teleporting the players to the instance, and making sure others won't interfere. Except for that, the bot can do the match making and tell players what the teams are. Then the teams can go to KF and start their fight.

[edit]

In fact, a bot with admin privileges could do all those things. Of course, it would have to be hosted by an mod/admin to prevent abuse.

 

As far as I am concerned, the highlighted part is where the problem is.

Yes, we can do it now already, but it isn't happening and will never happen, because casual (lower level) fighters cannot have any fun in kf.

If you want to enable self-organised group pk even at low levels, why not make the battle rooms in MM battle hall multi and no drop? As far as I can tell they do not get used right now. With an a/d cap (real cap as in instances and originally at DP, not 'reduced to' like current DP, e.g. at 80, 100 and 120) this could be a nice extension of the DP SC arenas.

 

Not a real alternative to either of the ideas in the first post, but a quickie that should require little coding.

 

*afterthough* The portal to TD should probably go to GP instead, you wouldn't want people to land in TD by accident.

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Seems there are only few of us, so I decided to add my comment too. I support Entropy's idea :icon13:

Of course I am not saying Korrode's one is wrong (and should not be implemented too) but under word "instance" I imagine gather group of people I want to have fun with, no just sign into a random queue.

 

I am absolutely no PKer and I don't know much about fights and roaming in KF and arenas but don't blame me please, I am regular instancer and this is point of view of common EL player. And to be honest, how many real-in-heart PKers who would love the battles like fair and random Korrode style are here? :lurker: I think Entropy would like to attract much more people with this kind of instances - yeah, ones like me and many others.

 

- I like the idea of building teams like for instances: our rules, our level range, our restrictions, our agreements

- after one we still can mix up into two teams differently and try another one again and again

... so I think this is worth it, even when you need to wait for better time and it won't be "right now because I want and mates not here"

 

- I love the idea of several lives, can mix up strategy when returning from spawning point to battlefield

- I love the idea of different scenarios to choose from

- it's good anyone can join, ranger or bomber or summoner ... or even as a weak runner (speed hax rulezz) as a decoy to lead enemy team into settled trap

:D

 

Yeah maybe weaker players and those who avoid maps anyway will stay still out of these anyway - but at least, would give them the opportunity to join mighty friends to have some fun - without waiting, not for only few seconds of fight because of bad luck/preparation/equipment/pk skills.

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I think Entropy would like to attract much more people with this kind of instances - yeah, ones like me and many others.

 

- I like the idea of building teams like for instances: our rules, our level range, our restrictions, our agreements

- after one we still can mix up into two teams differently and try another one again and again

... so I think this is worth it, even when you need to wait for better time and it won't be "right now because I want and mates not here"

 

- I love the idea of several lives, can mix up strategy when returning from spawning point to battlefield

- I love the idea of different scenarios to choose from

- it's good anyone can join, ranger or bomber or summoner ... or even as a weak runner (speed hax rulezz) as a decoy to lead enemy team into settled trap

:D

 

Yeah maybe weaker players and those who avoid maps anyway will stay still out of these anyway - but at least, would give them the opportunity to join mighty friends to have some fun - without waiting, not for only few seconds of fight because of bad luck/preparation/equipment/pk skills.

I think yourself and some others aren't quite looking at the big picture, and are taking an idealistic view of how Radu's instances would go.

 

Do you really think there's going to, on any kind of regular basis, be teams that are actually balanced strength to yours? You'll basically need to get the entirety of both teams together from your friends and acquaintances to achieve that. The majority of the time if you make a team for Radu's style instance the only opposition teams you'll have to choose from are ones that will squash teams of mid-strength players like bugs.

 

Have a really serious think about it. Not a 'hopeful best scenario' think about it. Think about what's required to get into the instance in the first place, not just what happens once in.

 

Consider the current playerbase size. Consider that a lot of people new to PK may not really want to commit to 30+ mins solid of it. Consider that already skilled PK'ers are already friends with other already skilled PK'ers. How often do you really think you're going to be able to do the instance? and how often is it going to be a fun experience?

 

With my idea you will not ever be pitted against any single opponent that is worlds beyond you in strength. People who are not already skilled PK'ers will regularly get paired up with people who are. It will give you more of a fighting chance and an opportunity to get advice and learn something, not to mention meet new people and make new friends. Plus it means only 6 people in the whole of EL within a range need to queue and you can have an instance, you don't need to already know people beforehand to organise a team.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Radu's idea too, I'd like to see it in-game as well, I'd like to be able do those CTF style games and always be on teams with my pr0 friends too... but if it's one or the other, I definitely choose my idea. The accessibility alone...

 


 

@Radu

 

I actually missed the bit about KF before... that's no good, too much potential for interference.

 

Firstly; I'd be willing to make a map for the random PvP instance to be included in the next client update if it's to go ahead.

 

Until then, to get something going without a client update... as per our discussion in-game, I know you want to try with bots first, but how about a couple of quick and easy server-side changes too:

 

How would you feel about temporarily using cont2map13_temple (Egratia Point 'magic school') as the PvP instance ground.

 

epms-ingame.jpg

 

As far as i know, there is nothing of any consequence in this temple. No harvestables, no secrets, nothing. It also only shares it's map with one empty tent (also in Egratia) so would be easy to set PK/ND area perimeter, etc.

 

The current entry to the temple in Egratia would need to be disabled so there is no way in other than bots with admin privilege teleporting you in.

 

Simple setup something like this:

 

epms-topdown-botmarked.jpg

 

One team gets tele'd to Bot 1, the other to Bot 2.

 

The decor isn't right and the map should be bigger (it only takes 20 sec to walk the length of it), but it's just good enough, especially for a temporary solution.

 

watdayasay?

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And who said it must be always teams that are actually balanced strength to mine?

Why it cannot be sometimes like 30 players against Muffosa himself alone - just for fun? Like bosses waves in invasions with capped max? Some-kind of challenge or entertainment? :mace:

 

But I fully understand your point of view and why your suggestion is like it is. Covers a black hole in EL pk/pvp life in elegant way. It's a very good one.

Let other decide and tell their opinion too ;)

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Why would you want to go into an instance to face mufossa for the only thing to happen is him to 3 hit 1 person, turn, 3 hit the next person, turn so on so forth.

 

That sounds incredibly fun to me... *Sarcasm*

 

Korrode makes a very valid point. How often (besides the first 2 weeks after being implimented) will people take the time to sort out even teams and the teams actually be sort of even? How often will a group of friends all be online at the same time to be able to form teams?

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To avoid abuse (trading wins/grievers/etc.), I would assume that the SUICIDE command would be turned off for PvP instances. If it is not, would using the command in the instance kick you from the instance or simply kick you to designated area if using multiple lives? I could foresee some people trying to use this to annoy others. Not something desirable for anyone's first look into PK imho.

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Korrode, I think KF would be safe for this, because the bot can detect interference and boot or even ban those who interfere with a team. But of course, other maps or areas are possible as well.

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Korrode, I think KF would be safe for this, because the bot can detect interference and boot or even ban those who interfere with a team.

Mind if i ask how?

Can you elaborate a bit more on where the bot(s) are going to be and how it's going to work?

Are you intending for the teams to start at opposite sides of KF? or right next to each other?

Will the bot be in KF with them?

What if someone flees in an attempt to buy time to restore mana and then you've got the teams split up a bit and there's 2 battles going on outside sight range of each other, how will the bot monitor it all for interference?

Is there some way a bot can montior all combat happening in the whole of KF that i'm unaware of?

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