Calling all guildleaders

[Jezebelle]

Or, you could very well actually take the suggestion I and I think others TRIED to make - give some plan that actually makes this more than just a regurgitation of a tried and tired idea.

 

 

this was the original idea and the Council should work out the details:

I would like to suggest to create a Guilds Council. All guildleaders take place in that council and we will monthly meetings with all guildleaders.

For day-to-day issues we can have a board of about 5 members of the Council.

 

We can discuss things like outlaw issues, abuse and other stuff that mods cant do anything about coz its not 100% against gamerules. So many times someone does something real bad, but cannot get a mods punnishment because its not against gamerules, but its frustrating someone gets a way with it, dont you think..?

 

Perhaps we can even have a Trial stand, where we, the Council think of punishments against those that cross the lines..

 

I know we dont have 'powers' to realy punish someone..but being given the silent treatment..isnt nice..imho..and if we unite as a Council..it will have more effect then when a few ppl keep to a punishment.

 

And, we might also discuss ingame issues, developement issues and come up with good suggestions for the devs of this game.

 

Together we can do so much more..together we stand strong..against anything and anyone..

 

Who is up for this?

 

*hugs*

 

Jezebelle ( W&W Guild)

 

n.b. oh..I forgot: i would also like the Council to be adressable for newcomers to ask questions to..specific questions. I would like to see all guildleaders have a speciality (alch, combat etc) so the newcomers know where to turn to with specific questions. This way the newcomers will feel welcome and they dont have to send an anonymous #help_me, in my experience i found most newcomers prefer a 'real'person to help them.

This world will get more friendly if newcomers know who to turn to, it will give them a feeling of having a friend in a new world.

[Arnieman]

So, we're trying to organize a guild council like we've already tried, to do some nice things unofficially for the game which are already served in other areas about as adequately as can be expected, either officially or unofficially, and include the leader of all the guilds to do this.

 

I'm wondering where the new and revolutionary idea that makes this so much better an idea than before comes in? And if you still don't realize that the "let them come and build it" mindset really isn't going to work, I don't know how else I can say it.

 

"If you build it, they will come..."

[Jezebelle]

So, we're trying to organize a guild council like we've already tried, to do some nice things unofficially for the game which are already served in other areas about as adequately as can be expected, either officially or unofficially, and include the leader of all the guilds to do this.

 

If I thought the 'nice things to do unofficialy for the game' had been done in a 100% good way, I wouldnt suggest this Council. I am not bored neither looking for more work, I only care about the game and imo it needs some improvements.

 

I'm wondering where the new and revolutionary idea that makes this so much better an idea than before comes in? And if you still don't realize that the "let them come and build it" mindset really isn't going to work, I don't know how else I can say it.

 

"If you build it, they will come..."

 

no..if people are willing to make an efford it can work.

[LadyWolf]

Too many hands in the cookie jar can be a mess. You seem to think that everyone in this "world" (as you refer to it) can magically ser aside differences and play nice, all by themselves. It doesn't matter how mature everyone tries to act, someone is going to feel slighted and go on the war path.

 

Grand delusions of a perfect existance. If this game was all nice and sugary, I think I would just have to leave. You cannot dictate game play. I'm sorry, but it will not work. Everyone is here to do their own thing (this IS a role playing game). If people want to be bad then learn to deal with it. It's gonna happen with or without this council.

 

I think things are as they should be. We have admins, mods and nh's to do everything that you have suggested. Why do we need more people "pretending" to be in charge ( meaning council)?

 

Again you have skirted the questions and suggestions put for to you.

 

A structure that is thrown up hastily without a firm foundation is sure to fall. So is an idea for something like this. This is why it has failed so many times before.

[Jezebelle]

Nobody is forcing anyone to join this Council, if you dont believe its needed, dont join.

 

Jez

[Damned_Angel]

I want to begin with a question.

 

It is wrong that someone tryes to build a bridge that will try to connect a community affected - maybe in a normal way - by the introduction of a very important feature?

 

I might be wrong extrapolating this to the whole community but i can feel the effects of cooldown in my guild. This new feature made my guild poorer with 4 members. 4 friends that i love very much. Maybe this is a small price for you but is a big price for Dawn, a guild that does not recruit massivelly. So i see this council as a source of new friends. Is that wrong?

 

LW, that i respect like hell, underlined something very important: we don't know each other very well - well i guess this could be our chance to get to know each other better.

 

In RL and virtual world the big powers with large spheres of influence allways applied the following principle:

"Divide et impera" (Split them and conquer them, in an approximate translation). I see this Council as a way to be more united - to forge more interesting and developing alliances.

 

Someone said that evil players etc make this game more interesting. I agree. And i have a suggestion too. They can make their own Council too.

 

Ent said about the future of el - strategies etc etc. I think this council prepares good alliances - maybe guilds will merge, etc. If the "bad guys" do the same we would enjoy like hell the new features, strategies etc Ent spoke of several times.

[Ghrae]

Damned Angel (and others who may think similarly),

 

I don't think that LadyWolf or myself are against the idea that Jezebelle has proposed. I have nothing against it at all. In fact, depending on how it was set up and how it worked... I would even been willing to recommend it to Lotharion (CEL leader) when he returns.

 

But from what I see so far, it's almost like someone telling you, "buy a green car" and "I've heard that green cars are really good", etc. And you're response would probably be "Who makes this green car? Is it a car? pickup? truck? What type of motor? What's the gas mileage?" and any other questions that help you determine if this is the right thing for you.

 

That's where I'm at... tell me details. Even if you draw up a plan that will undergo revisions and need approval, at least then I can get a CLEAR vision of what we're trying to do.

 

And yet, I have been told to leave (hello, this is a public forum), that they're might be outlawed guilds, and that the one who is the biggest supporter of this idea has no concept at all as to how it will work. So I'm stuck with a few people telling me that green cars are the way to go and my only attempt to talk with the sales persons (not just Jezebelle, but all supporters of the idea) have resulted in very little useful info.

[Jezebelle]

Kit:

 

Do try and read my very first post..that was the concept to work from. It will be shaped as we go along.

Ever wrote a concept? I did, many of em..and it starts out with the outer lines. The rest has to filled inwith details by all those who participate.

 

I get the feeling you only wanna jump in a bed thats allready made and even warm..well, this Guild Council is hard work to set it up, and even harder to keep it up.

 

Im willing to make an afford, are you? or are you just gonna stand by and comment on something that isnt even there yet?

 

Jez

[Damned_Angel]

Bro,

 

This concept is not virtual only. In my vision this Council Could Work as a Structure similar to RL - United Nations. When the UN was founded as League of Nations no one knew exactly why this was founded. To help eachother. That was the only reason. After that they came with brillant conclusions that now we have borrowed in our countries legislation - like human rights or protection of children.

 

 

As i underlined this Council - if would have the chance to work - could become some kind of EL's United Nations.

Outlaw people ---- could mean trade embargo. This happens in RL too.

 

UN was in the beggining the green car. I don;t know if the Council is good or if the Council would succeed. But as we have weddings in EL and wars why not to try to develop a structure like UN. This would be amazing in my oppinion and will help guilds develop and people get to know each other better:-)

[Ghrae]

Im willing to make an afford, are you? or are you just gonna stand by and comment on something that isnt even there yet?

 

As per the only rule I've seen, only guild leaders can participate. I'm not a guild leader of CEL. So instead of possibly "spamming" the forums set up for said council, I'm expressing my concerns, thoughts and questions here on the EL public forums.

 

Damned Angel,

 

Even the UN started with a game plan. Maybe it's the structured mind set that is me. But it seems that others have similar questions. It's just very hard to say "yes" without some level of details. A game plan, even if it must change due to on-going realities.

[Jezebelle]

Im willing to make an afford, are you? or are you just gonna stand by and comment on something that isnt even there yet?

 

As per the only rule I've seen, only guild leaders can participate. I'm not a guild leader of CEL. So instead of possibly "spamming" the forums set up for said council, I'm expressing my concerns, thoughts and questions here on the EL public forums.

 

 

again..read my first post.

 

Damned Angel,

 

Even the UN started with a game plan. Maybe it's the structured mind set that is me. But it seems that others have similar questions. It's just very hard to say "yes" without some level of details. A game plan, even if it must change due to on-going realities.

[Damned_Angel]

Draft Plan for Guild Council

 

Objectives

 

Guild Council exists to be a communications channel between the participating guilds and also a main debating forum for guild leaders regarding various issues.

 

Guild Council does not replace each guild's own management as a policy making body for these structures, but can offer suggestions and expertise regarding any policies. Guild Council does not exist to administer the affairs of the EL Guilds but can reccomend solutions for issues that might apear.

 

Guild Council works as a focus group in which the ideas that a certain guild wants to implement in its own strategy can be analized, if the representative of that guild requires assistance.

 

Guild Council analizes the game and offers solutions to the participating guilds regarding guild projects and also facilitates the organization of iter-guild projects. This will help smaller guilds to become more competitive and active in the game.

 

Guild Council can become a neutral arbiter that, if parties agree, can evaluate and offer solutions to various conflicts. Due the fact that reflects the community through its leaders, the Council can become the neutral ground for any diplomatic negociations.

 

Guild Council, through the expertise of the participants tries to find solutions for the market inflation and might reccomend the participating guilds the adoption of certain decisions to sustain a steady developement of the market.

 

Guild Council, due the fact that reflects the community through its leaders, can become a very good place for guild leaders interested in forging alliances.

 

But Guild Council exists primarily to allow leaders ideas to be developed in a place withouth any interferences.

 

 

Functionality

 

The functionality of Guild Council is therefore increased if a greater number of guild representatives become involved.

 

The ethos of this Guild Council, and indeed any other Guild Union, is that it is run by players for players. In order for that to be the case reperesentatives need to have a significant say in how things are run.

It is simply not feasible to take every decision through Guild Council at the time it needs to be made and therefore Guild Council can devolve some of it's reccomendation making power to a group of seven Officers, elected on an monthly basis, the Guild Executive Committee.

 

However Guild Council is where the Exec are held to account, giving reasons for all reccomendations made.

 

Even more central to the Guild Concil, in fact the very reason that it exists, is representation. There are two key ingredients in representation; Democracy and Involvement. Guild Council is democratically elected but to be truly representative it requires that representatives from every different guild background get involved in it.

 

 

 

(to be continued)

 

This is only a draft. i don't even know English very well to be able to write it. But i hope it is a second step in explaing wha this council is about.

[LadyWolf]

D_A you know i love you to death and hold you in high respect dear friend, but I just can't endorse this without first having my concerns addressed.

 

Seems all that is being done is "read my first post", stop posting here if your gonna be negative, don't join if you don't want to. So much negativity. Is this what can be expected when (IF) the council is formed? If we disagree with your views will we be told to "leave if you don't like it" or "don't post here if you are gonna be negative"?

 

YOU formulated this plan Jeze. I wanna hear YOUR opinions on the questions that I asked, yet all I see is you directing me (and Ghrae) back to your first post, which is the post that raised my questions in the first place.

 

As Ghrae pointed out, I'm not against the idea itself, just need answers before I can make a decision. Seems to me you'd rather only be surrounded by those that agree from the get go, not have any negative vibes. Guess what? Life is full of negativity, so try to counter it with something positive, like an answer to our questions.

 

Like Ghrae also pointed out, I choose to post here, rather than spam your forums seeking answers.

[Damned_Angel]

LW lol... milady i don't think the Council is a structure that has as an aim gathering toghether only "yesmen" and "yeswomen" lol.. not at all. I think the Council is a place where the debate is free.

 

Let me tell you something from our internal policy lol...smiles.... Dawn has a High Council whose members vote in many guild management issues - most of the time the vote is not unaniumous. Why? Because each person has his/her own way of seeing things, even if we have a system of common values.

 

I mean no one can think that this Council should be a Utopia. Come on. No one can imagine that. I personally would love to see argumented debates pro and against some issue. Because this would make the Council as it should be. Representative.

 

I also don't think that anyone said that who is not with us is against us. Not someone from this incumbent council at least. I think value and friendship comes under every tag. And i'm sure there are many people that think the same. Respect and other feelings are not dependant on beeing or not a member of the Council...

[LadyWolf]

D_A, I see your reply, and it is well written, but what you are failing to see is how Jeze has written her responses, then when they get a negative reaction or whatever all we get is "oh you took that out of context, that's not what I meant." or "dont post here if your only gonna be negative."

 

Here's an idea. D_A seems to have some valid thoughts on this. Why not turn it over to him? He is the only one that has stepped forward with anything other than a brush off, and that has actually at least given something to go on.

 

FOR THE LAST TIME I WANT AN ANSWER ON THIS QUESTION PLEASE:

 

UTi as well as 1 or 2 orther guilds, and CEL don't have a chosen GM or the GM is away due to real life reasons. WHY are we told that we have to join the guildless ones. Why can't we just vote a competent representative to be our voice? We are not guildless and that is denying our guild as a whole their right to a seat because of something that noone can control.

[MarantZ]

Seems like an awful lot of vague, grandiose, ideas but with nothing concrete as a basis.

 

Even DA's mission statement mentions not very much - just some vague terms including 'communications channel, offers solutions, focus group, facilitates the organisation of inter group projects, etc etc etc'.

 

I know there is a lot of talk about fleshing out this idea as people 'go along', but that rarely works. You need a clear 'goal', and it is the way towards that goal that needs to be defined.

 

And so far the only concrete goal is to punish 'bag jumpers, scammers' etc.

 

Such a large organisation and red tape to reduce the game to an exercise in leveling up in a sugary coated world.

 

Nope - not for me.

 

But if people insist on having a council of guilds/players, then it would be a lot of power to wield. Nothing like mods obviously, but it would have a lot of vocal power - a powerful voice.

 

So with that in mind, maybe Jez and DA have more concrete goals that they could outline?

[Jaha]

A few CONSTRUCTIVE questions/comments

1) what will be done to avoid power struggles/corruption?

I know that theoretically and in the perfect world, those wouldn't be problems. But as it is, there is the possibility for them. Examples: guild A and guild B are at war(or will that be outlawed from this?). Guild A becomes one of the five guild leaders. Guild B would A. be in a major danger because suddenly the guild that th ey are at war with are in a position of power above them. B. Leave the group in protest.

Another example is what if an extremely rich guild starts bribing people to get the one of the five positions(which name eludes me) I know that we would hope it wouldnt happen, but what will be done to stop it?

2)how often will the five leaders be elected?

3)What would be their exact powers?

4)I am sorry, but I cannot support the trade embargo on guilds that dont want to participate

Some guilds may just want to be apart, not part of some larger group. They shouldnt be punished for it

5)what will be done for guild leaders who arent able to attend at the set time/dont speak english?

 

those are just some pelimary questions

[Arnieman]

So, we're trying to organize a guild council like we've already tried, to do some nice things unofficially for the game which are already served in other areas about as adequately as can be expected, either officially or unofficially, and include the leader of all the guilds to do this.

 

If I thought the 'nice things to do unofficialy for the game' had been done in a 100% good way, I wouldnt suggest this Council. I am not bored neither looking for more work, I only care about the game and imo it needs some improvements.

 

I'm wondering where the new and revolutionary idea that makes this so much better an idea than before comes in? And if you still don't realize that the "let them come and build it" mindset really isn't going to work, I don't know how else I can say it.

 

"If you build it, they will come..."

 

no..if people are willing to make an efford it can work.

I too care about the game - don't get me wrong. I don't think trying to subvert the in-place architecture of the game is necessarily the way to go about that. IOW, if you have a problem with the way things are handled, there are better channels than this.

 

A.) Let's stop bagjumpers/scammers/outlaws! Fine and dandy, but what is a few more people chatting about a problem going to do more than is already done?

B.) Let's help newbies! Channel 1, #help_me, the Help Me forum section, people camped out by the beam fire... what more can we really do that isn't already being done?

C.) Let's set a communication channel between guilds! #ig, guild forums, and just generally PMing people of a given tag. It could work to foster diplomacy, and be an independent mediator between guilds! There are some guilds in this game that just will NEVER see eye-to-eye in this game, due to competing interests, personal disagreements, or what-not. If one guild is involved, then the other will naturally be suspicious of any involvement from the guild council. Independent mediation is a fallacy, and if you look at the current United Nations, you'd realize how it "works" - there are few really truly unbiased mediators.

 

To me, you cannot hope to achieve this without total guild cooperation, and you will never get that until you address the holes in the proposal. "Sign up and then build it" won't work. Heck, even having a plan doesn't always help. Case point: The thread about the last incarnation of this idea.

[Jezebelle]

A few CONSTRUCTIVE questions/comments

1) what will be done to avoid power struggles/corruption?

I know that theoretically and in the perfect world, those wouldn't be problems. But as it is, there is the possibility for them. Examples: guild A and guild B are at war(or will that be outlawed from this?). Guild A becomes one of the five guild leaders. Guild B would A. be in a major danger because suddenly the guild that th ey are at war with are in a position of power above them. B. Leave the group in protest.

Another example is what if an extremely rich guild starts bribing people to get the one of the five positions(which name eludes me) I know that we would hope it wouldnt happen, but what will be done to stop it?

Power struggles and/of corruption will excist as long as mankind does. We cab only hope for good sense and honousty, just as in rl.

2)how often will the five leaders be elected? I dont know, this has to be detemined by the Council, once it is formed.3)What would be their exact powers?

4)I am sorry, but I cannot support the trade embargo on guilds that dont want to participate

Some guilds may just want to be apart, not part of some larger group. They shouldnt be punished for it That also was just an idea, if the Council, once formed, does not agree with that, it wont happen.5)what will be done for guild leaders who arent able to attend at the set time/dont speak english?

Perhaps the non-english speaking once can be helped by others who speak their language.. The time difference has always been an issue for everything ingame (events etc.) Thats something that has to be worked around.

those are just some pelimary questions

Thank you for your questions

 

 

D_A, I see your reply, and it is well written, but what you are failing to see is how Jeze has written her responses, then when they get a negative reaction or whatever all we get is "oh you took that out of context, that's not what I meant." or "dont post here if your only gonna be negative."

 

Here's an idea. D_A seems to have some valid thoughts on this. Why not turn it over to him? He is the only one that has stepped forward with anything other than a brush off, and that has actually at least given something to go on.

 

Turn over to him WHAT exactly?

WE are FORMING a Guild Council here, not laying down an allready excisting Guild Council Law on those who want to participate. The idea is, to give ALL guidleaders a chance to discuss the rules and regulations and all . This is a non-excisting group, so much work to be done, and therefor, so many votes to count before adding any rules.

 

FOR THE LAST TIME I WANT AN ANSWER ON THIS QUESTION PLEASE:

 

UTi as well as 1 or 2 orther guilds, and CEL don't have a chosen GM or the GM is away due to real life reasons. WHY are we told that we have to join the guildless ones. Why can't we just vote a competent representative to be our voice? We are not guildless and that is denying our guild as a whole their right to a seat because of something that noone can control.

 

Ladywolf, the plan was to have the GUILEADERS in a Council, for the reasons many times mentioned.

To be honest, I thought every guild has a Guildleader which is supposed to be in charge of the well-being of his/her guild. I guess I am just spoiled within my own guild, lol.

Perhaps we could make exceptions for that, in rare occaisons, but the main plan IS, have the guildleaders in the Guild Council.

Why dont you discuss this within guild and have your GM send me a PM? Same goes for others who believe they dont have a GM.

 

 

[LadyWolf]

Lmao..ok ..I'll have my GM send you a pm..I'll have to get them to reprogram the BOT that is our lvl 20 to be sociable tho. READ my last posts..This is why I keep asking is cause we DONT have a set GM!

[Derin]

The Brotherhood of Bane appoints an Envoy to handle guild diplomacy, that person does not have to be the guildleader.

 

As I said before the Brotherhood of Bane is in favor of this idea, but we are not sure if it will work in a satisfactory way.

For representation from our guild; it will either be our envoy (most likely), or a guildleader or the guildmaster.

[Kirianthis]

The thought of a guild representative council is a good one. It does not represent everyone, but it does represent more than one individual at a time. I however do not have the time nor the patience to go to councils when there are so many other things that need to be done. Labrat has posted early in this thread that he is all for the council, and I am all for him going to it. He is not our guildmaster though. He is one of our most trusted leaders and I would be happy to allow him the power to speak for my guild in this council.

[MarantZ]

Seems like an awful lot of vague, grandiose, ideas but with nothing concrete as a basis.

 

Even DA's mission statement mentions not very much - just some vague terms including 'communications channel, offers solutions, focus group, facilitates the organisation of inter group projects, etc etc etc'.

 

I know there is a lot of talk about fleshing out this idea as people 'go along', but that rarely works. You need a clear 'goal', and it is the way towards that goal that needs to be defined.

 

And so far the only concrete goal is to punish 'bag jumpers, scammers' etc.

 

Such a large organisation and red tape to reduce the game to an exercise in leveling up in a sugary coated world.

 

Nope - not for me.

 

But if people insist on having a council of guilds/players, then it would be a lot of power to wield. Nothing like mods obviously, but it would have a lot of vocal power - a powerful voice.

 

So with that in mind, maybe Jez and DA have more concrete goals that they could outline?

 

 

I have repeated my question (shown above) as no one seems to have answered it. To repeat, I am aware that people want to 'flesh out' this idea as they go along, but if people are trying to establish the GOALS of such an organisation AFTER it's creation, then that is the wrong way to go about it. HOW to get to a goal is a more worthwhile/logical item to discuss. But the goals must be outlined first. To that end, can someone please outline the goals of a council of guilds?

[Jezebelle]

[can someone please outline the goals of a council of guilds?

 

(from Damned_Angel)

Draft Plan for Guild Council

 

Objectives

 

Guild Council exists to be a communications channel between the participating guilds and also a main debating forum for guild leaders regarding various issues.

 

Guild Council does not replace each guild's own management as a policy making body for these structures, but can offer suggestions and expertise regarding any policies. Guild Council does not exist to administer the affairs of the EL Guilds but can reccomend solutions for issues that might apear.

 

Guild Council works as a focus group in which the ideas that a certain guild wants to implement in its own strategy can be analized, if the representative of that guild requires assistance.

 

Guild Council analizes the game and offers solutions to the participating guilds regarding guild projects and also facilitates the organization of iter-guild projects. This will help smaller guilds to become more competitive and active in the game.

 

Guild Council can become a neutral arbiter that, if parties agree, can evaluate and offer solutions to various conflicts. Due the fact that reflects the community through its leaders, the Council can become the neutral ground for any diplomatic negociations.

 

Guild Council, through the expertise of the participants tries to find solutions for the market inflation and might reccomend the participating guilds the adoption of certain decisions to sustain a steady developement of the market.

 

Guild Council, due the fact that reflects the community through its leaders, can become a very good place for guild leaders interested in forging alliances.

 

But Guild Council exists primarily to allow leaders ideas to be developed in a place withouth any interferences.

 

 

Functionality

 

The functionality of Guild Council is therefore increased if a greater number of guild representatives become involved.

 

The ethos of this Guild Council, and indeed any other Guild Union, is that it is run by players for players. In order for that to be the case reperesentatives need to have a significant say in how things are run.

It is simply not feasible to take every decision through Guild Council at the time it needs to be made and therefore Guild Council can devolve some of it's reccomendation making power to a group of seven Officers, elected on an monthly basis, the Guild Executive Committee.

 

However Guild Council is where the Exec are held to account, giving reasons for all reccomendations made.

 

Even more central to the Guild Concil, in fact the very reason that it exists, is representation. There are two key ingredients in representation; Democracy and Involvement. Guild Council is democratically elected but to be truly representative it requires that representatives from every different guild background get involved in it.

 

 

 

(to be continued)

 

This is only a draft. i don't even know English very well to be able to write it. But i hope it is a second step in explaing wha this council is about.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Jezebelle

[MarantZ]

I already addressed these points by saying...

 

Even DA's mission statement mentions not very much - just some vague terms including 'communications channel, offers solutions, focus group, facilitates the organisation of inter group projects, etc etc etc'.

 

As I mention in my quote, these are far too long winded and vague.

 

The normal practice for creating an organisation such as you describe is to have very clear goals and work backwards from there.

 

Can you break it down to half a dozen or so bullet points?

Edited December 21, 2005 by MarantZ