Economy

[Malaclypse]

About 2 weeks ago, i posted a thread on the old forums with the question, whether

there is a fixed value at which making items will never fail. The answer then was, that,

if you are 25 levels above the recommended level the chance to succeed will be 100%.

 

This has some interesting impact on the so much flamed economy.

 

As an example lets use the Alchemy skill in the following discussion. Any other skill

(maybe with the exception of combat skills) will do the same.

 

At first, it means, that the set of failures for a single skill is finite, whereas the set of

producable items for a single skill is countable infinitely. There will be no player which

will ever produce an infinite amount of any item, simply cause any player will stop playing

at some time in the future (at last, if (s)he is dying ) but this will have no impact on

this discussion.

 

This implies, that the set of producable items is much, much larger than the set of

failures. As an example you can compare the set A = { -1, -3, -5, -8, -11 } with the

set N of all natural numbers. Probably anyone will agree, that N is much larger than A.

This is true, even if A contains thousands or say millions of members. In mathematical

terms the cardinal number of A (and also of the set of failures) is a finite number, let's call

it n, whereas the cardinal number of N (and also of the set of producable items for

a single skill) is infinite. No matter, how large n is, infinity is always ways larger.

 

Furthermore you can get a decent skill level, without failing once! For alchemy this means,

it is possible to make fire essences until level 45 and then continue making tit bars without

even 1 failure! (Note, that this example is the worst case. You can optimize this in a way,

that you make fire ess until level 26, then continue with water ess to level 27, earth ess to

level 28, and so on. Simply add 25 to the recommended level and you know at which level

something will stop to fail.)

 

So what impact does this have on economy? It simply means, that you don't need to

calculate the failures into your prices. Even if you don't make an infinite amount of items, you

will make many more items than the amount of items that will fail.

 

So don't trust people, that say the prices are so high because they must calculate their failures

within the prices This is true, even for items were you need to spend money (for example

leather stuff) because of the fact, that you can make lower level stuff until you are 25 levels

above the item you want to make. So any crying and whining about the many failures someone

has, is simply void. Of course, if you follow the way, that you make items always at their

recommended level you will have failures. And they will cost you something (either money or

time to harvest or make the ingredients yourself or both). But compared to the many items you

can and will make later without anymore failures, those few failures are void.

 

Note, that I don't want low prices for items, I simply want fair prices. And the prices are

all but fair. Most people that produce items will use a much higher price on lower levels

and later if their levels go up they will decrease the price. This way, other players that

started the game later will never have a chance to sell anything, because they can't give

such low prices without loosing much money. IMHO, a fair price will be, where the producer

will earn a few bucks (the amount depending on the item made), beside the cost (s)he has to

make that specific item. And this price should be calculated as if you will never fail, because

at some time in the future you will never fail.

 

I know that this thread may and possibly will annoy some people. So feel free to flame at

me I'm gladly awaiting them

 

Regards

[Grum]

whereas the cardinal number of N (and also of the set of producable items for

a single skill) is infinite.

aleph_0 to be precise.

Most people that produce items will use a much higher price on lower levels

and later if their levels go up they will decrease the price. This way, other players that

started the game later will never have a chance to sell anything, because they can't give

such low prices without loosing much money. IMHO, a fair price will be, where the producer

will earn a few bucks (the amount depending on the item made), beside the cost (s)he has to

make that specific item. And this price should be calculated as if you will never fail, because

at some time in the future you will never fail.

I don't understand. From the first part of the paragraph it looks like you think high-lvl players should ask more for the things they produce, from the second part it seems you want newbies to produce for less. Which is it?

 

Anyway, the price is what the market dictates. If you think ppl are asking too much, you're free to manufacture your own stuff.

[Malaclypse]

whereas the cardinal number of N (and also of the set of producable items for

a single skill) is infinite.

aleph_0 to be precise.

right, but which will be understood by only a few ppl with the necessary maths background

 

I don't understand. From the first part of the paragraph it looks like you think high-lvl players should ask more for the things they produce, from the second part it seems you want newbies to produce for less. Which is it?

 

It's neither. Maybe it's a language problem English's not my native language.

 

I don't like the way some ppl try to manipulate the prizes. Actually the price is not dictated by

the market like you said Grum, but it is dictated by a few 24/7 players, that have high levels

because of the much time they spend playing. But not anybody can spend that much time

on gaming.

 

Btw. I have another char which is a producer and non-fighting char (Malaclypse is not a producer,

she will become a fighting/summoning/magician char). But asking the prizes which I

calculated in a way that I think will give a fair prize, my items will either not bought, or i got flamed

about the prize, like Hey, the prize for x is not n, it is m.. And this char

produces the cheapest possible way, that is she makes anything possible by herself (harvesting,

making base ingredients like essences, bars and so on). The market in EL actually gives much

freedom to the players, but I feel, that this freedom is misused by some players for their own

advantage. They play the game not for fun, but only to be listed in some kind of best-of listing

(richest char, best alchemist/manufacturer/crafter etc.), which in my opinion is a very stupid and

childish way of playing a game. At least El is a game, and games are there to have fun. But not

having the fun alone for myself, but have fun together with others. This way they destroy the

game-fun for other players in some way. And as a side-effect they destroy the market.

[Grum]

I don't like the way some ppl try to manipulate the prizes. Actually the price is not dictated by

the market like you said Grum, but it is dictated by a few 24/7 players, that have high levels

because of the much time they spend playing. But not anybody can spend that much time

on gaming.

But these people charge prices as if they'd never fail (because they never do). Unless I misunderstood again, what you want is that these high lvl players ask a bit more for the stuff they make, so that lower lvl players also get a chance to sell something? I think you'll have a hard time convincing people of that.

[Malaclypse]

But these people charge prices as if they'd never fail (because they never do).

 

But they only do this for lower level items, lets say for steel shields once they reach lvl 30 or

40, not for steel shields when they are at level 16 or 18.

 

No, I don't want lower level players to get a chance to sell something, but to get

a chance to earn a few bucks too, like all the high lvl players do. It's no fun to be

forced to sell leather items at half the prize you actually have to pay for the

ingredients.

 

If you calculate for a longer time range the costs for failures will rapidly converge

to 0, while the income will converge to infinity.

 

I think you'll have a hard time convincing people of that.

I know that

[LordMalis]

The market in EL actually gives much

freedom to the players, but I feel, that this freedom is misused by some players for their own

advantage.

Its a capitalist market, not communist, and of course I'm going to use freedom to my advantage!!! Whose advantage should I use it for, your's?

[Malaclypse]

Its a capitalist market, not communist

 

It's neither, it's EL market, which is quite different

 

and of course I'm going to use freedom to my advantage!!!

 

Play together, not against each other, so you don't have to care about your or

someone's other advantages, but the advantage of all!

[Cicero]

The biggest problem in the economy is that fighters can sell the equip that they find for cheaper than manufacturers. Manu people have to buy the ingredients, but fighters just find the equip.

[Malaclypse]

The biggest problem in the economy is that fighters can sell the equip that they find for cheaper than manufacturers. Manu people have to buy the ingredients, but fighters just find the equip.

 

I agree with you Cicero, that this is one of the core problems with economy. But then again,

doesn't this imply that the drop rates are somewhat too high? If fighters would find less

items from monsters, it wouldn't have such a high impact on market, if they sell them for a

cheaper price. Furthermore ppl would think twice before giving away valuable items for a few

bucks.

[Starman_Omega]

I also see that Crafting is about the most underused skill (summoning coming close behind)Mainly because the fact that there are many, many books to read, while alchemny has a simple 9. maybe ent should destroy the magic nexus and replace it with the jewelry (or something) nexus, along with maybe placing the needed ingrediants safer places, so people won't always have to buy the ingrediants.

[Shadow fire]

Summoning will become more popular with the addition of fluffy & chimeran summoning

[crusadingknight]

The biggest problem in the economy is that fighters can sell the equip that they find for cheaper than manufacturers. Manu people have to buy the ingredients, but fighters just find the equip.

Items break...in fact, until you can beat something naked, there is barely any profit in it...

BTW,

This implies, that the set of producable items is much, much larger than the set of

failures. As an example you can compare the set A = { -1, -3, -5, -8, -11 } with the

set N of all natural numbers. Probably anyone will agree, that N is much larger than A.

This is true, even if A contains thousands or say millions of members. In mathematical

terms the cardinal number of A (and also of the set of failures) is a finite number, let's call

it n, whereas the cardinal number of N (and also of the set of producable items for

a single skill) is infinite. No matter, how large n is, infinity is always ways larger.

 

Logically, this number won't be infinity without infinity*1.2 (approximately) time ingame, since just to accomplish level 120 needs about 880,000,000 experience (actually more). But I see your point. On the other hand, my solution to this would be to curve the manu fail rate, so 0% is never achieved... annoying, but this would fix a few things. (Just like there is always a possibility, however remote to get pwned by a monster on a bunch of crit hits+damage).