RomanHD Report post Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) Hitler brought Germany out of a depression, rebuilt the military, built the auto-bahn,designed the shape of the vw bug, oh fucking come on lol, I could do this for any fucked up human being I want to hero worship. And that, my friend, is exactly why things are not always black or white. I believe in cases like these we have to look at the intention. Let's look at it this way: * Hitler did positive things for Germany BECAUSE he wanted to become its president and start wars killing lots of people. * But did M. Jackson compose/record/perform all his music and donate to all the charities just BECAUSE he wanted to have fun with some young meat? That might have been the case, and if so, it's fucked up, but we can agree that's it VERY improbable. Thus, MJ wins again EDIT: grammar Edited July 6, 2009 by RomanHD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dilly Report post Posted July 6, 2009 *listens to 'She's out of my life' on the radio for the 300th time this week* I'm not to judge someone for things he may or may not have done. No, celebrities should not get away with just anything. But no, just because someone IS a celebrity with some very remarkable preferences should not mean either that he can be (falsely?) accused and lynched for just about anything. The truth about it all will forever stay in the middle now. I just feel sorry that someone that broke basically all the records, was so messed up from such an early age that he turned into what we've seen of him: a childlike, fragile, emotionally messed up, physically mutated, supposed to be grownup man, and the genius of his music sort of got overshouted by teh dramah. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robotbob Report post Posted July 7, 2009 Hitler brought Germany out of a depression, rebuilt the military, built the auto-bahn,designed the shape of the vw bug, oh fucking come on lol, I could do this for any fucked up human being I want to hero worship. And that, my friend, is exactly why things are not always black or white. I believe in cases like these we have to look at the intention. Let's look at it this way: * Hitler did positive things for Germany BECAUSE he wanted to become its president and start wars killing lots of people. * But did M. Jackson compose/record/perform all his music and donate to all the charities just BECAUSE he wanted to have fun with some young meat? That might have been the case, and if so, it's fucked up, but we can agree that's it VERY improbable. Thus, MJ wins again EDIT: grammar Oh this is going to be fun. (disclaimer: I'm from an ethnic origin that nazis hate, hence I'm no nazi supporter, ehem) Have you ever read Mein Kampf? I have read but the English\German. So I cannot even answer your first bullet list item. The way you answered just highlights my original assertion about hero worship. That no matter how evil or misguided a person is, those people who wish to worship this person can always highlight good things, in the shadow of all the bad. --- [on mike jackson's behaviour] I'm certain Mike Jackson, living in Gary, IND as a plumber, would have done the exact same thing with his creepy behavior with and around male boys. Mike Jackson's cultish followers seem to totally glaze over is the fact he was a mentally ill person and no amount of accolades for singing, dancing, painting, poetry, charitable donates, allows you to do whatever you want and violate social norms in doing so. It fine to say, He had some good songs, He gave to charity,(hell I could probably recite all the lyrics on the thriller album, the only real thing he ever did) but most of his supporters talk about him in a zealous hero worship way as if he was their Messiah. He did admit to having pj sleepovers, with exclusively pre-teen males, none of them related to him, and sleep in the same bed. This isn't make a wish bullshit, this is a sick person, who at 45, should be socializing with adults, both public and intimate. I'm sorry you can't use the "I'm peter pan" to get a ok nod to be a creepy weirdo. The police did confiscate, all the barely legal, club, etc porn mags in his bathroom and bedroom, the bottle of whiskey, the soiled undergarments, none of this is up for jury speculation. This is all fact, either by Mike Jackson himself, or the police evidence collection. --- [On hero worship] So will Bill Gates receive the same hero worship when he dies? He has given far more to charity than Jackson ever managed between buying creams, chimps and other expenses (He is still in debt, in death) Or will Bill Gates get mostly ignored because his original persona was never sexualized? I really think this is the core of it, since Jim Morrison and Elvis both received the same level of hero worship but a guy like Roy Orbinson did not. --- (Side note: on the drama, the person created it all himself. The baby dangling, the masks, he paid for the mutilation, the pajamana parties with boys, the neverland ranch,;a child sexual predators haven. Too bad he didn't focus on music, instead of the 99% of the other weird shit) --- Gohan, I have started the "leave gohan alone" crying youtube post, but I need a lock of hair and maybe clothing item in order to start teh voodoo shrine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RomanHD Report post Posted July 7, 2009 The way you answered just highlights my original assertion about hero worship. That no matter how evil or misguided a person is, those people who wish to worship this person can always highlight good things, in the shadow of all the bad. Just as...you can always hate someone by pointing his/her minor shortcomings in spite of all the positive sides of his/her personality and life. I'm certain Mike Jackson, living in Gary, IND as a plumber, would have done the exact same thing with his creepy behavior with and around male boys. With all due respect, your certainty doesn't mean a jack. Mike Jackson's cultish followers seem to totally glaze over is the fact he was a mentally ill person and no amount of accolades for singing, dancing, painting, poetry, charitable donates, allows you to do whatever you want and violate social norms in doing so. I am not MJ's cultish follower. In fact, Thriller is the only MJ album I have in my music collection. Also, I don't give a shit about your 'social norms'. Unless he did something seriously wrong, what society thinks doesn't really mater. He did admit to having pj sleepovers, with exclusively pre-teen males, none of them related to him, and sleep in the same bed. This isn't make a wish bullshit, this is a sick person, who at 45, should be socializing with adults, both public and intimate. MJ obviously had a hard childhood and never quite grew up. Unless he did with them something that can be classified as sexual intercourse, it's not such a big deal. Yes, weird, yes, socially unacceptable, but wrong as in morality and law - most likely not. So will Bill Gates receive the same hero worship when he dies? He has given far more to charity thanJackson ever managed between buying creams, chimps and other expenses (He is still in debt, in death) Or will Bill Gates get mostly ignored because his original persona was never sexualized? For me, Bill Gates > Michael Jackson. Both because he donated more to charity, and because Windows 7 is such a kick-ass system Anyways, off to watch MJ's memorial http://www.cnn.com/live/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XenaMT Report post Posted July 7, 2009 I wonder why he was never made a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ateh Report post Posted July 7, 2009 MJ obviously had a hard childhood and never quite grew up. Unless he did with them something that can be classified as sexual intercourse, it's not such a big deal. Yes, weird, yes, socially unacceptable, but wrong as in morality and law - most likely not. Do you have children of your own ? Are you saying you wouldn't mind a middle aged man having sleepovers with your 9 year old son ? Its not such a big deal to you ? Everyone defending this I ask you again, do you want your kids having sleepovers with middle aged men where they all share the same bed ? In essence what you are saying is as long as you donate money to charity , what you do with under age boys is your own private business ? ffs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RomanHD Report post Posted July 7, 2009 Do you have children of your own ? Are you saying you wouldn't mind a middle aged man having sleepovers with your 9 year old son ? Its not such a big deal to you ? Nope, I don't have children, so I can't really say. BTW, watching MJ Memorial live @ CNN.com live, congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee just nominated Jackson as World Humanitarian. That was like half an hour after Al Sharpton told MJ's kids that their dad wasn't weird -- he just had to deal with weird things. Eat this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PaulB Report post Posted July 7, 2009 You mean to tell me that you would actually have to have children BEFORE you decided if they could go over to a middle aged man's house and sleep in his bed? By then it's already too late. The answer should already be there man :/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Infamous Report post Posted July 7, 2009 lmfao this is just unbelievable, people keep ignoring that he slept with little kids and ignore the question "would you let your kids sleep with a middle aged man?" answer is obviously no, people just worship him too much to admit they wouldnt let that happen and thats its wrong stop being so damn ignorant and just admit sleeping w/ kids whether or not there was sexual intercourse is wrong and let the guy rest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RomanHD Report post Posted July 7, 2009 stop being so damn ignorant and just admit sleeping w/ kids whether or not there was sexual intercourse is wrong Proudly not admitting And I'm VERY far from being a MJ worshipper. As I said, I have ONE of all his albums, and I've listened to it maybe twice. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scarr Report post Posted July 7, 2009 MJ LEGEND FOREVER hes son was a twat tho, eating gum and not showing any emotions at all..whats with that :/ was sad when paris cried, dont say you didnt cry a little bit and that michael jackson plastic joke is just stupid, there isnt even plastic involved in plastic surgery afaik .. and i believe he didnt had that much of it, only in hes nose? and also he had a skin desease rip mj legendddddd Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagpieLee Report post Posted July 8, 2009 MJ LEGEND FOREVER hes son was a twat tho, eating gum and not showing any emotions at all..whats with that :/ was sad when paris cried, dont say you didnt cry a little bit and that michael jackson plastic joke is just stupid, there isnt even plastic involved in plastic surgery afaik .. and i believe he didnt had that much of it, only in hes nose? and also he had a skin desease rip mj legendddddd I totally agree. The man is a legend. I don't really care about his innocent behaviour or his court proceedings (he was proven not guilty anyway and the other case was settled outside because he couldn't be bothered - he had enough of media speculation and wanted it to be settled privately). I'm a big fan of his and gutted not to see him in action. I tried to get tickets for his London gigs but I couldn't The man and his music is just amazing. Tbh I can't believe all the haters out there who want to turn a blind eye for all of his efforts for the fight to make the world a better place and his multi-million selling records. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why don't people talk about other convicted paedo's, rapist, murderers etc. they seem to only want to talk about MJ...? Stop all this vigilante-type posting on a now deceased legend please, you're not impressing anyone. And yes I accept that he was mental. But then again, most people classed as 'genius' are a bit mental anyway and MJ being the massive genius that he is, was way below the socially accepted behaviour. Yes, little Paris speech was teary I'm planning to go to his musical soon. Thriller on Shaftsbury Avenue in London (it's been out for a while, way before his death) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The_Piper Report post Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) Hitler brought Germany out of a depression, The depression was nearly over, when Hitler came to power, he was just benefiting from what others did and the general situation of economy world wide. rebuilt the military, that was already done during the 10 years before he came into power. built the auto-bahn, Indeed, but others got that idea years ago and built the first autobahn between Cologne and Bonn, before Hitler started to build any. (that autobahn was later degraded to a simple street, because it's impossible, that someone else than Hitler started to build Autobahns.) designed the shape of the vw bug Lol, i guess, that was Ferdinand Porsche , oh fucking come on lol, I could do this for anyfucked up human being I want to hero worship. Yeah, more luck next time with facts And what has that all to do with Michael Jackson? A lot. False accusations, false facts, all the same. And i still have no idea why someone is posting about Hitler in a Michael Jackson thread Is he that fascinating? Do you want him back? Piper Edited July 8, 2009 by The_Piper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robotbob Report post Posted July 8, 2009 Hitler brought Germany out of a depression, The depression was nearly over, when Hitler came to power, he was just benefiting from what others did and the general situation of economy world wide. rebuilt the military, that was already done during the 10 years before he came into power. built the auto-bahn, Indeed, but others got that idea years ago and built the first autobahn between Cologne and Bonn, before Hitler started to build any. (that autobahn was later degraded to a simple street, because it's impossible, that someone else than Hitler started to build Autobahns.) designed the shape of the vw bug Lol, i guess, that was Ferdinand Porsche , oh fucking come on lol, I could do this for anyfucked up human being I want to hero worship. Yeah, more luck next time with facts And what has that all to do with Michael Jackson? A lot. False accusations, false facts, all the same. And i still have no idea why someone is posting about Hitler in a Michael Jackson thread Is he that fascinating? Do you want him back? Piper If you had actually read, my -facts- were bullshit propaganda, just like the rest of the mike jacksons wonderful gifts to the world. I brought that into this thread to highlight even sympathic germans to their old leader, can still blindly see him as good. Do you want him back? I am jewish and lost 15 members of my family in the holocaust, enjoy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
conavar Report post Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) and the other case was settled outside because he couldn't be bothered - he had enough of media speculation and wanted it to be settled privately). Sorry, if you are innocent you have nothing to hide and prove yourself innocent......... settling out of court for $20 million just because you cant be bothered isnt the action of a "innocent" person.. People with their head stuck in the sand just because they bought the Thriller album .. Note: Wonder if we will have a RIP Gary Glitter thread aswell Edited July 8, 2009 by conavar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robotbob Report post Posted July 8, 2009 I totally agree. The man is a legend. I don't really care about his innocent behaviour or his court proceedings (he was proven not guilty anyway and the other case was settled outside because he couldn't be bothered - he had enough of media speculation and wanted it to be settled privately). I'm a big fan of his and gutted not to see him in action. I tried to get tickets for his London gigs but I couldn't The man and his music is just amazing. Tbh I can't believe all the haters out there who want to turn a blind eye for all of his efforts for the fight to make the world a better place and his multi-million selling records. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Why don't people talk about other convicted paedo's, rapist, murderers etc. they seem to only want to talk about MJ...? Stop all this vigilante-type posting on a now deceased legend please, you're not impressing anyone. And yes I accept that he was mental. But then again, most people classed as 'genius' are a bit mental anyway and MJ being the massive genius that he is, was way below the socially accepted behaviour. Yes, little Paris speech was teary I'm planning to go to his musical soon. Thriller on Shaftsbury Avenue in London (it's been out for a while, way before his death) [heros] I notice a couple keys, in regards to hero worship. I notice he is being referred to as MJ. This follows making the person more than human, a demigod. MJ is also Michael Jordan, a damn fine bball guy, but apparently still it far from man-god status. I notice, not here, but in other places, naming him Mike Jackson is completely abhorred since it makes him less god-like. There are plenty of people, whose names will never be known that have and are fighting to make the world a better place. These people have gone quietly everyday delivering food to the hungry, medicine to the sick. However, they will never be anyone's hero. We prefer our sports, music, art, hero's to reach this demigod status, with few nods to men and women like Gandhi and mother Teresa. The ability to sell a massive quantity of something should not make someone, a legend. The people that do not like that this type of person becomes a hero, legend for all of us to admire, or appeal to being like, some human idolatry, a demigod, have an equal right to complain when these people are worshipped. I say, feel free to enjoy a person music or body of work, but no singer is a hero legend for all mankind. -- [on genius] Einstein was assumed genius, but he did things like forget to comb his hair, and was mostly an distance asshole, not have preteen boys sleepovers. People like to use the term genius, not to express one persons mental powers, but to explain why they cannot do what this particular person can do. Its a term to allow them to forgive their own failings by allowing the other person to be -more than human-, just more hero worship. Stop all this vigilante-type posting on a now deceased legend please, you're not impressing anyone. Stop all this hero worship-type posting on a now deceased singer please, you're not impressing anyone. (p.s.) yes infamous, its amazing, its completely ignored. It really shows how powerful hero-fication is, these people are infallible. Note: Wonder if we will have a RIP Gary Glitter thread aswell Poor guy was just a few sells and mega concerts in Rio from it :/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PaulB Report post Posted July 8, 2009 The news coverage is getting out of hand also... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RomanHD Report post Posted July 8, 2009 The point is: * Hitler is remembered as a dictator, who first helped Germany, but in the end, brought Germany to its knees and caused a world-wide homicide. * Michael Jackson is remembered as awesome entertainer, pop singer, dancer and a philanthropist with a weird psyche due to his hard childhood who MAYBE shagged some kids And dude, WTF is wrong with referring to Michael Jackson as MJ in a MICHAEL JACKSON THREAD. In a Michael Jordan thread, I will most likely refer to Jordan as MJ also. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scarr Report post Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) i know right, what does it matter we say MJ LOL in E-L evryone calls eachother with abrivations i wouldnt be suprised if they called you RB aswel masterpiter was MP, donpedro was DP cu@ Edited July 8, 2009 by scarr Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagpieLee Report post Posted July 8, 2009 Care? MJ will always be Michael Jackson to me. Sure you can say Michael Jordan who is a household name in the US and maybe a few other countries but MJ - Michael Jackson is a household name across the globe. I'm not going to get drawn is the stupid debate on heroes/legends/genius because quite frankly any logical and rational arguments will fall on deaf ears. Doesn't matter because some people seem to forget that it's ALL OPINION ANYWAY. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robotbob Report post Posted July 8, 2009 Cool, this was fast, and very interesting. My little test on the sanctity of Mike Joe Jackson's name, and any full or abbreviations was met by 3 people, rather quickly. Funny how this was met with 3 replies, but 'would you let your 10 yr old son, sleep over with a middle aged man' still manages to remain ignored. Poor Marlon, sniff Roman, you still don't understand the point of that post. It was to show that I could use bullshit propaganda about that person, seemly making them good and completely ignoring the bad, this time when you used it, you only help me make my point, you selected things that make that particular dictator look bad and that singer look good. Thank you. Although this disclosure wasn't expected and I lol'd, with a weird psyche due to his hard childhood who MAYBE shagged some kids For those of you that have never been to Gary, Indiana, USA. I suspect almost everyone there has a hard childhood, it fcking dangerous just to drive around, come to the USA and make it a pilgrimage destination. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagpieLee Report post Posted July 8, 2009 Actually I didn't answer it because it wasn't directed at me. If it was? My answer would of course be no (I don't even have a 10 yr old so), but that doesn't necessarily mean that his music is crap. And to be honest, most fans of MJ wouldn't care - that's the whole point that you're missing. People who are big fans of his music won't care much about his madness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RomanHD Report post Posted July 8, 2009 My little test on the sanctity of Mike Joe Jackson's name, and any full or abbreviationswas met by 3 people, rather quickly. Funny how this was met with 3 replies, but 'would you let your 10 yr old son, sleep over with a middle aged man' still manages to remain ignored. Poor Marlon, sniff I already said a few posts ago that I don't have children so I don't know the emotional bonds connect with it. Looking at it rationally, however, if my son agreed and I were sure that the middle aged man would do nothing bad/immoral to him, it would probably be OK. I lol'd I'm glad you did Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ateh Report post Posted July 9, 2009 Actually I didn't answer it because it wasn't directed at me.If it was? My answer would of course be no (I don't even have a 10 yr old so), but that doesn't necessarily mean that his music is crap. And to be honest, most fans of MJ wouldn't care - that's the whole point that you're missing. People who are big fans of his music won't care much about his madness. I suppose thats what some of us can't understand, why its OK to have PJ partys with MJ jus because he danced and sung to some pop music My little test on the sanctity of Mike Joe Jackson's name, and any full or abbreviationswas met by 3 people, rather quickly. Funny how this was met with 3 replies, but 'would you let your 10 yr old son, sleep over with a middle aged man' still manages to remain ignored. Poor Marlon, sniff I already said a few posts ago that I don't have children so I don't know the emotional bonds connect with it. Looking at it rationally, however, if my son agreed and I were sure that the middle aged man would do nothing bad/immoral to him, it would probably be OK. rationally i'd say you will probably change your mind once you have a child, because quite frankly even though you are trying to make a point I think you have just basically said you are all for middle aged men having sleepovers with underage boys and thats prolly the most fucked up thing ive read all year Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robotbob Report post Posted July 9, 2009 Ateh already covered it, but just a quicky addition: Looking at it rationally, however, if my son agreed and I were sure that the middle aged man would do nothing bad/immoral to him, it would probably be OK. And to be honest, most fans of MJ wouldn't care - that's the whole point that you're missing. Thats the whole point, no one cares about what possible wrong a hero does, they are forgiven. It allows many heros to do whatever they want to do, all with follower approval. Scary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites