Pointer behaviour

[Rehdon]

Hi all,

I'm sure I'm too late for the next client update, but I'd like to suggest modifying the pointer behaviour. At the present moment the pointer changes almost in a random manner (or at least this is my impression) when hovering over different objects, for instance I almost always get the "pointing finger" when clicking to attack a monster, resulting then in the "This only works with NPC characters!" error message. What should happen IMHO:

 

1. when hovering over different objects the pointer should change accordingly, automatically: the attack icon for a monster, the use icon for an npc, the eye icon for things etc.;

 

2. now you can click on a door/flag from a distance and automatically open it/go to the map it's pointing to: the same thing should happen with monster (click on a monster and move towards it to attack from anywhere) and NPC (move to an NPC and talk to him), in short no more "You're too far away, get closer!" messages;

 

3. when clicking on your character the inventory window should open: no more "you can't trade with yourself" or "you see [name of character] messages.

 

Hope this makes sense for you devs, can try to explain better if needed

 

Rehdon

[Theladin]

If you have the walk icon selected on the bottom of the screen then the mouse pointer already behaves like you describe. If I put my cursor over titanium ore then it turns to a pickaxe, if I put my cursor over a monster it turns to a sword, etc. You can easily use the right-mouse button to select the mode that you are operating in.

[Rehdon]

Jon, that's what should happen, but more often than not I get the "use" icon. If, for instance, the use icon were disabled when hovering over monsters (i.e., if only the possible actions were to be shown) that wouldn't happen.

 

Rehdon

[Aislinn]

Hmm then either you have the wrong icon clicked or something is not working correctly on your system.

The cursor does function this way ingame. The use icon is not the default icon.

 

upon further thought, do you have the right click icon scrolled through to have the little walk guy as the default icon or is it set on the use icon? Try right clicking a few times and leave it on the guy and see if that helps.

[Rehdon]

upon further thought, do you have the right click icon scrolled through to have the little walk guy as the default icon or is it set on the use icon? Try right clicking a few times and leave it on the guy and see if that helps.

 

Ok, just made a little test: if I use something, then walk (= click on a different point of the map), then click to attack a monster the use icon is still there. Perhaps it's just my fault assuming that if the use icon is the currently selected one, it should change to the walk icon if I click somewhere on the map to move; or am I right in thinking that that should be the expected behaviour?

 

Rehdon

[Learner]

Part of the issue is that things like "USE monster" and "USE Titanium ore" are allowed by the client on purpose so that the server can decide if any special action can be taken. The server is the one telling you that you can only do that to NPC's because right now that is true, but it may change. If the client enforced rules like that, then a new client would be needed to change some features where currently only a server update is needed.

 

If the Icon isn't what you want, try Right clicking on the mouse and it will cycle thru the set of icons that are avaialble for the object your are over. What set of icons is available does depend on what item you are over.

[Guest baneazaghal]

No, the "auto-select-icon" feature works only if the currently selected icon is "walk". When it's selected, the button of the walk icon is lowered.

[Rehdon]

The server is the one telling you that you can only do that to NPC's because right now that is true, but it may change. If the client enforced rules like that, then a new client would be needed to change some features where currently only a server update is needed.

 

Ok, sounds reasonable to me. What do you guys think about points 2 and 3?

 

Rehdon

[Aislinn]

point 2: search

 

point 3: you won't get the trade message unless you click on yourself with the trade cursor, which should be addressed in the point one conversation. As to the "you see"...it should say that imo, if you click on yourself. If you want to open your inventory bag, click on the inventory bag icon at the bottom of your screen. It's there for a reason.

[Rehdon]

point 2: search

 

Did that before posting, didn't see any relevant thread. Admittedly there were too many results to browse them all, I just read the first 10 or so. I guess that was a sort of "already discussed, not passed" meaning?

 

point 3: you won't get the trade message unless you click on yourself with the trade cursor, which should be addressed in the point one conversation. As to the "you see"...it should say that imo, if you click on yourself. If you want to open your inventory bag, click on the inventory bag icon at the bottom of your screen. It's there for a reason.

 

You know, I really had a hunch that clicking on the inventory bag icon would open ... the inventory bag! But what I meant was something different: since currently there's no action tied to a mouse click on the character (except for the "You see [name of character]" and the "You can't trade with yourself" things, not very useful IMHO), how about having the inventory bag open when you click on the character? I think some old RPGs did this, and I found it very useful because it allows you to stay with the mouse near the character and the objects he/she's using etc.

 

Rehdon

[Torg]

how about having the inventory bag open when you click on the character?

Pressing Ctrl+I and not have to move the mouse... priceless.

[Matty27]

for instance I almost always get the "pointing finger" when clicking to attack a monster,

I worked out that the pointer will default to that icon if you have just used something from the quickslots - food/potion. Knowing this, unless mixing, I always rightclick once in main part of the game window to get back to the normal pointer which does change according to what it is over.

[Aislinn]

I worked out that the pointer will default to that icon if you have just used something from the quickslots - food/potion. Knowing this, unless mixing, I always rightclick once in main part of the game window to get back to the normal pointer which does change according to what it is over.

Correct, which I personally find to be a welcome feature and not something i would want to see changed. I count on that staying as a "use" icon when I am fighting and want to use sr's or a ring on short notice, as well as when I am mixing and need to eat.

[majestyk]

Sensible defaults are there to make things _easier_, not to make them possible (or impossible). All arguments like "press Crtl-I", "use the bag icon" etc. are not at the right place here, it was neither asked for "how do I open the inventory" or "how do I open it best". The suggestion was to make things more intuitive, and that should still be the main priority of every user interface.

 

It is intuitive that the default for inventory items and quick-slot items is "use". It is intuitive that the default icon for doors, caves etc is the "door" icon to enter. I don't think it is intuitive to always have to right-click once into the main-window to "reset" the pointer so it will auto-change again. IMO this is a "workaround" for a broken interface, good that we humans can easily adjust to that. Try playing another role-playing game, and you will find yourself asking why you right-click into the main screen so often.

 

And regarding point 1: the point is not to enforce the client to always use a certain action on something, but to use a sensible _default_ action on something. Only because the default is to attack monsters or harvest ores does not mean you would not be able to manually change the pointer to "use" if you want to try it.

 

I think these are some valid points. The user interface is what makes you see, feel and enjoy the virtual world, and I think there's still much room for improvements here.

 

Cheers,

maj

[Rehdon]

Well I was going to scribble something about the default actions and their importance to sensible UIs, but you wrote it all very neatly for me, majestyk, thank you! In fact in UI design they usually suggest that you count the clicks needed to perform a given task: the less clicks, the better for your user (duh!).

 

To stick to the fighting phase, what I was suggesting is that it would be a nice improvement if the pointer icon would switch automatically to "fight" when hovering over a monster/animal, just as it switches to "use" if I move it on a healing potion or food in the quick pick window.

 

Rehdon

[Aislinn]

As always, you can't please all of the people all of the time.

What's sensible for one person isn't sensible for the next.

 

Sensible is a VERY subjective term.

[Rehdon]

As always, you can't please all of the people all of the time.

What's sensible for one person isn't sensible for the next.

 

Sensible is a VERY subjective term.

 

As a general principle, you're right of course, but in this specific case you have an OBJECTIVE criterion: the number of mouse clicks. I think we all agree that the less, the better (unless you're really looking hard for those RSI injuries

 

I don't know how difficult it would be to change the code related to this particular issue, so as far as I know it could be difficult to implement the changes I suggested. I just wanted to get your attention on this specific point, hoping change a) would be considered is technically possible.

 

Rehdon

[Torg]

As always, you can't please all of the people all of the time.

What's sensible for one person isn't sensible for the next. <snip>

As a general principle, you're right of course, but in this specific case you have an OBJECTIVE criterion: the number of mouse clicks.<snip>

I do agree with this point. Just because something is the way everyone is used to, doesn't mean that it is the best way to do things. I agree that a measurable thing, such as the number of mouse clicks, is a more objective view, and hence going to provide a more definable result.

 

That said...

 

I don't know how difficult it would be to change the code related to this particular issue, so as far as I know it could be difficult to implement the changes I suggested.<snip>

Currently, the "default" action is in-fact to change to a fighting, or walking, or whatever action depending on the location clicked (what is under the cursor). Now, this "default" action is changed to a non-default ("use") cursor when something else when that item (eg. food) is clicked. Alternatively you can click the right-mouse button to change to the "use" cursor.

 

What is the difference between clicking on another item to change the cursor, and clicking the right mouse button to change the cursor? Should there be a difference? Currently there is not.

 

If there is a difference, then "use" becomes another default action, but how do you determine what items default to use? Maybe the default for the side bar should be use.

 

However, this brings to the fore the other side to the issue (which is being presented by Aisy et al). This relates directly to your argument about the number of mouse clicks:

When fighting, it is common to have the inventory open and to use a combination of side bar (especially for spells) and items from the inventory. These all need to be "used", however in your case, as the default cursor for the inventory window is "pick up to move" then you need extra clicks to change from the default cursor to the use cursor.

 

I think the problem therefore is that the default actions change depending on what activity you are doing.

 

Hence... the argument of "clicks" is now subjective.

 

 

 

(As for the changes to the code, as far as I know without actually looking at the code, I think it is fairly easy to adjust... if there is reason.)

[Rehdon]

Hi Torg,

I think I got what you mean, but what I'm suggesting is that the defaults are changed so that the most sensible icon appears when you're leaving the mouse icon on different objects, independently from what has been selected before (and thence constitutes the current icon selection). For instance:

 

NOW: if I use a potion during a fight and then move towards the next opponent, I have to right-click to get the "fight" icon.

 

SUGGESTED: pointing on a monster/animal with the mouse cursor automagically brings up the "fight" icon. One less click.

 

NOW: if I've used the "look" icon to read a sign, I have to right-click to get the "use" icon and drink a potion or eat some food.

 

SUGGESTED: moving the mouse cursor on a potion in the quickbar automagically brings up the "use" icon. One less click.

 

In this way a) you'd never see an icon whose action is not actually possible (e.g. a "use" icon on a monster) you can get to secondary actions, like "look" instead of "use", by way of right-clicking c) the interface would be more fluid and quick to use.

 

Hope I managed to explain better this time

 

Rehdon

[ttlanhil]

so if you want to eye-click a few items, you'll have to right-click every time, since it'd go back to use-click as the default each time you click?

[Rehdon]

so if you want to eye-click a few items, you'll have to right-click every time, since it'd go back to use-click as the default each time you click?

 

Yes. In that case you'd be adding one click, but consider that

 

1. you don't use the "look" icon often, actually I don't remember the last time I explicitly "looked" at something to understand what it was; different situation with newbies, I suspect, but after a little while you know your way in EL without needing to look at things;

 

2. the "look" action could be the default action in many cases (items which are not usable in rooms/maps for instance);

 

3. some items you look at are actually read using the "use" icon, most notably road signs;

 

4. the "look" icon on your character could be disabled without losing information;

 

In short, the situation would be a compromise, just like now, but a compromise favoring the most common actions.

 

Rehdon

[Alia]

It would be a nightmare if default action for click on yourself will be "open inventory", because I often

misclick when harvest, click on storage npc etc. and click on myself instead.

 

If you really want to minimize number of clicks, your should use keyboard, it is more ergonomic for many things

(espacially for us rogue-like gamers

However a lot of new shortcuts should be added.