New Manufacturing System

[Knightbane]

Hi. I have a suggestion for all those manufacturers out there. My idea was mainly brought on by Cicero's statement on the game in this topic regarding the state of manufacturing at the moment.

 

I suggest that manufactured goods have a bonus added to them, dependant on the makers current manufacturing skill. Conversely, being inexperienced at making an item, (such as, being the exact lvl it takes to make the item) would detract from the final product. This would add a bit more variety to weapons, without actually having to add new weapons to the game. Too many, though enticing to veterans, may scare off new players because of the sheer number of weapons to choose from. While there are not many now, I can see that people will eventually grow tired of the current choices and crave more and more.

 

Now, this bonus would not be that much at first, perhaps +1 to hit or defense. It would also take a couple lvls to notice any change as well.

 

For example, it currently requires lvl 21 to make an Iron Sword. This is how it might work:

lvl 21: -2 Damage Penalty

lvl 23: -1 Damage Penalty

lvl 25: 0 Penalty/Bonus

lvl 27: +1 Damage Bonus

lvl 31: +2 Damage Bonus

lvl 36: +1 'To Hit' Bonus

lvl 43: +3 Damage Bonus

lvl 52: +2 'To hit' Bonus

Note- A bonus of +3 Damage means +3 from the normal item, not adding onto previous bonuses.

 

Now, I am not an experienced crafter, (Quite the contrary actually. :oops:) so these level's may be a bit off in reasonability. I just wanted to show that it would require much more experience between bonuses as the bonuses got better and better.

Using this system, there would be much more variety to weapons, also destroying the hierachy of weapons that gets SO boring after awhile. I am, of course, referring to the oh-so-beloved Rune 2 Handers of Runescape. Everyone has one, not because they necessarily like them, but because they are the best in the game. Please, take RS as an example and stray from this weapons mindset now before it is too late! :lol:

So yes, there could possibly be a Iron Sword that is better than a Steel Long Sword, but it would require a very good craftsman to make it.

 

I think that this would be good for that lone crafter who wants to set up a "little sword shop somewhere," as Cicero put it. It would allow more person-to-person trading, because not everyone can make a top-of-the-line staff. And while anyone can buy a sword from a shop, to get a good variation of the weapon, they have to get it from someone.

 

Now, I don't know how hard this would be to implement, and I assume it would be a rather large update (should it get put in, that is. Don't want to get ahead of myself here. :wink: ) This would largely be because every weapon is different, some have defensive characteristics that would have to get a bonus somewhere down the line. While this would be a large undertaking, I think that it would make manufacturing in general a much more enjoyable skill to level.

 

Please post your thoughts and suggestions on this suggestion. I have put some thought into this, and do not want it simply dashed for no reason. If you want to dash it though, post a reason at least. :lol: Thanks for your time.

 

~Exit Light, Enter Night

[Hemp Knight]

sounds good ... but yad also need away of seeing the stats of the items that you are tradeing for

[Learner]

The stats for an Item are already handled by the server when you use the eye icon or the right click.

 

I do like this idea or something close to it, the problem I see is that currently the items don't have unique stats currently. That would mean a lot of work revamping the server. While there isn't anything to prevent taking the time to do this, where do we want Ent to focus?

 

I do think that this would combine very well wil items wearing out also! So, maybe when one feature is being put in the other can be setup for.

[Cicero]

Well, there is a way to have unique details for a stack of items. If that were used, then only items with the same characteristics would be able to stack safely in your inventory. This would also have to be true for storage. If you had 10 swords with different levels of damage, they would have to take up 10 spots in your storage in order for the server to keep track of them correctly. Having bonus levels for weapons (and possibly other items) would be far more practical than having wear and tear on them, because of the number of unique items that would be possible. I think it would be cool to have weapons that were crafted masterfully, and weapons and items that are magically enhanced. It's a step more towards technically feasible.

[Knightbane]

Hmm...I hoped that the chance for improvement on a weapon would be limitless(well, nearly). How hard is it, exactly, to change the power of a weapon? Let me pan this out a bit more, to get an estimate:

lvl 21: -2 Damage Penalty

lvl 23: -1 Damage Penalty

lvl 25: 0 Penalty/Bonus

lvl 27: +1 Damage Bonus

lvl 31: +2 Damage Bonus

lvl 36: +1 'To Hit' Bonus

lvl 43: +3 Damage Bonus

lvl 52: +2 'To hit' Bonus

lvl 60: +4 Damage Bonus

lvl 69: +5 Damage Bonus

lvl 78: +3 'To Hit' Bonus

lvl 88: +4 'To Hit' Bonus

lvl 99: +6 Damage Bonus

 

There. Gets pretty rough towards the end. :lol: Maybe it should be easier, I dunno. Ok, where was I? :?

Ah yes. Using this estimate it would require 13 Iron swords to be recognised as unique items. I was going to suggest different names for them all, such as:

lvl 21: -2 Damage Penalty

lvl 23: -1 Damage Penalty

lvl 25: 0 Penalty/Bonus-Iron Sword

lvl 27: +1 Damage Bonus

lvl 31: +2 Damage Bonus

...................

lvl 99: +6 Damage Bonus

 

But it would be hard to come up with a name for every different kind of weapon, considering they all start at different points.

 

I would really like the game to do this, but I have no idea how, or if it would be possible. It would just be awsome to be rewarded for all the work that manufacturing takes. You have to admit, it sucks to be able to make an item, only to discover that your potential buyers can just go to a sword shop and get the same thing. You then have to lower your prices to unreasonable depths and...ugh! So annoying and degrading. Know what I mean?

 

~Exit Light, Enter Night

 

EDIT: Oops. I just noticed the max level is higher than 99. Oh, well, you get my point.

[Knightbane]

Hmm...I feel like I'm talking to myself here. :lol: Thanks to those who commented, it helped a bit.

 

I figure that there may need to be a MAX bonus level for each item as well, since an iron sword would have about 21 counterparts using my new chart. :shock: Not good. With the new MAX idea I have, it would reduce it down to 10, mainly because of the serpent sword being the absolute MAX. Observe :

 

lvl 21: -2 Damage Penalty

lvl 23: -1 Damage Penalty

lvl 25: 0 Penalty/Bonus

lvl 27: +1 Damage Bonus

lvl 32: +2 Damage Bonus

lvl 38: +1 'To Hit' Bonus

lvl 43: +3 Damage Bonus

lvl 48: +2 'To hit' Bonus

lvl 52: +4 Damage Bonus

lvl 55: +5 Damage Bonus

lvl 61: +3 'To Hit' Bonus

lvl 68: +4 'To Hit' Bonus -----------Serpent Sword -3 Damage Penalty

lvl 73: +6 Damage Bonus---------- SS -1 Damage Penalty

lvl 78:---------------------------------0 Penalty/bonus

lvl 83:---------------------------------+1 Damage Bonus

lvl 88: " "------------------------------+2 Damage Bonus

lvl 93: " "------------------------------+1 'to hit' bonus

lvl 99: " "------------------------------+2 defense bonus

lvl 105: " "-----------------------------+3 damage bonus

lvl 111: " "-----------------------------+2 'to hit' bonus

lvl 117: " "-----------------------------+4 damage bonus

 

This is only the chart for swords btw. Just take any sword, fit it into the chart, and find it's MAX level, which would be 10 bonuses from the level to make it. I can't make a universal chart atm, because it would take some time to balance everything out to be fair. Please, more comments!

 

~Exit Light, Enter Night

[DealerOfDeath]

:!: Excellent Idea :!: Level of manufactured item determines outcome! About time someone came up with a solution to appease the manufacturers, instead of my crummy ideas peppering the forums! BTW- I'm nobody of consequence, but I believe this is TOP NOTCH! (Somebody throw Knightbane's brain a bone, eh?)

 

Armor bonuses! Shield bonuses! Leather gloves that hit harder than low levelly manufactured Serpent or Omega swords!

 

(Concerning Omega swords)

(possible imaginational figment)

Ingame:

 

[PM From Entropy]: DoD!

[PM To Entropy]: Sir?

[PM From Entropy]: Shut it! And quit talking about Omega swords! There is no such item.

[PM To Entropy]: Oh dear. Just got excited about Knightbane's idea on the forums about manufacturing...sorry.

[PM From Entropy]: Well, np then. Though, I am seriously considering implementing his idea. But since I'm not really me and you are typing this youself, I might say anything, eh?

[PM To Entropy]: Good sir! please do not divulge all my secrets, mkay?

[PM From Entropy]: Oh, DoD! By the way. Sorry about telling you to shut up earlier. You know, I'm hoping to dedicate this game to you, when it's completed. Think of it! Dealer-Of-Death-Land!! What do you think?

[PM To Entropy]: Er..I am honored good sir! But Eternal-Lands works for me just fine.

[PM From Entropy]: Well, I'll keep it that way then. Can't wait to talk to you again DoD!

[PM To Entropy]: Gee sir, thanks...

DealerOfDeath wonders what got into Entropy....

[Aerowind]

HAHA that is a good one but anyone can tell you typed that urself considering the TO's and FROM's were in all caps

[DealerOfDeath]

HAHA that is a good one but anyone can tell you typed that urself considering the TO's and FROM's were in all caps

 

Good sir, I know not what you mean! BTW- just don't look at the edited 1 time @ blah blah

 

And I thought Entropy hated me, just like my mother does. Well, that's only on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday that I'm hated. All other days I'm just disliked greatly, but not quite hated.

 

-The following has been made possible by the Ridiculous, but Quite True Sayings of Worthless People Vol 32, page 2140, 10th paragraph.

[ShadowKnight]

I agree, but it would be nice if the extra points were randomly distrubuted, for a little more variety. Also, i say less of a bonus if you worship the manu god, cause i feel sorry for jevik, working hard to get serp sword level then out comes manu god to cut work in half.

[Keknehv]

Probably the limiting factor to this method, however good of an idea it is, is labeling each item. That would be a pain for the entire dev team, and I don't think that this is really high on their priority list...

[Knightbane]

I know it would be no small task to put in the game, but I really want to see this game have a unique spin on things. So far, it has as much mindless clicking as, dare I say, Runescape. Already I am beginning to see the monotony setting in again.

 

This would be a lot of work, but I think that it will dramatically increase the popularity of the skill, as well as setting it farther away from similar games. I know that right now, everyone is still getting all the bugs worked out and adding more user-friendly console commands and gods into the game. But please, when that is all said and done, set your sights not on adding more and more items to craft, but on making the current items better to craft. Plus, if something like this were added early on, it would be less daunting a work load (I'm putting that lightly :wink: ) then if it was put off until all the items were added.

 

I will put some more thought into the MAX bonus levels, but what I am trying to achieve is a magnificently crafted iron sword, for example, would surpass a couple of it's superior swords, perhaps just passing the steel long in power before limiting. In that way, the steel long will come close to the titanium short, and the titanium short coming close, but not passing the serpent sword. That's what I'm shooting for, anyways.

 

Thanks for the comments and compliments. I get a bone! Let's grind it up and put it in a potion! :lol:

 

~Exit Light, Enter Night

[Kerrighan]

Well the topic of non standard items has appeared beafore, And entropy said that the game engine doesn't allow it for some reason

[Kasgoroth]

You ppl got so excited, but don't you see the flaws in a "regelated bonus system"? I'd like to see bonuses, but in a unexpectable way (I'll explain later when I write my own idea down).

 

First imagine what's gonna happen with those weapons made by LVL-32 manufacturers if there are a few LVL-52 manufacturers around... No one would care to buy LVL-32 manufactured items, everyone will wait for those few ppl who reached the 52-manu to make them +4 Damage Bonus swords. Would YOU want a "+2 Damage" sword if you can have a "+4 Damage" one?

You just need one high-lvl manu-guy who will sell his swords at reasonable prices and no one will buy the "weaker" versions.

I wouldn't favor a predictable crafting system... that's boring and actually the same as just making new kinds of weapons with better stats.

 

And second even thinking about LVL-100 manu is insane :lol: you'll never reach that state, unless you completely forget what RL is for a year or so... make yourself one of those toilet seats receiving injections of drip-feeding to keep your mortal body alive, and voila! You're a suuuper-duuuper blacksmith, one if it's kind.

 

I don't wanna dis you Knightbane, you have good ideas, I'm just listing the flaws in such a system *g*, don't take it personal. I may be wrong of course - that's also a possibility :wink:

[Knightbane]

And second even thinking about LVL-100 manu is insane you'll never reach that state, unless you completely forget what RL is for a year or so... make yourself one of those toilet seats receiving injections of drip-feeding to keep your mortal body alive, and voila! You're a suuuper-duuuper blacksmith, one if it's kind.

 

LOL :!: Good one.

 

I've got nothing against pointing out flaws, in fact i should thank you for it. I do see your reasoning, though. It would be far too easy to make these beefed up swords, and everyone would just buy the best one possible anyways.

 

But I don't see what you mean here:

 

Would YOU want a "+2 Damage" sword if you can have a "+4 Damage" one?

 

No, I wouldn't want a +2 damage sword if I could have a +4 damage sword. But then again, who wouldn't always take the better sword, if given the choice? The factor in this is money. I would take the better sword, but if it was too expensive, I might settle for the +2 Damage. I see what you mean about reasonable prices, but why would he? If there are not many crafters in his level, then he would want to get as much money as possible since he has no competition. Ah well, it's kinda a moot point.

 

Now, you are very correct on the note of a regulated bonus system. It would be far too common to see Master Iron Swords, and we would be back in the same boat of manufacturing hierarchy. Here is what I now propose:

 

Same as with monster drops, there would be a chance of making a better sword. 1/200, 1/500, whatever the probability. Now I may have had a bit of experience with levels and such, but I have no such experience with probabilities. I don't even know where to start with this, but this formula may help.

 

KEY:

N...................Level to make item.

Nc..................Current Manufacturing Level

P................... Probability Quotient; cannot equal 0.

 

(Nc-N)/P

 

So, for example-->

N=21 (Iron Sword)

Nc=25

P=200

 

(25-21)/200=1/50 chance, or a 2% chance of making the item.

Then a little bit later, after lots of training:

(51-21)/200=3/20 chance, or a 15% chance of making the item.

 

The great part about this is you can put in whatever P value you want for the item to make the probability you want. Also notice that at the exact level to make the item, the probability will always be 0, regardless of P value.

 

So instead of having MAX levels, leveling up Manufacturing would, in this way, increase your chances of making a better item, and not allow you to simply make it every time. This, I think, loosens up the system a bit more and allows for bonuses in an unexpected fashion.

 

This may also be good for all those PKers out there. (Or bad)

 

PKer1: How the hell did you kill me!? We were both using the same swords, same armor, same everything! And i was a higher level than you too!!

PKer2: Nope. Got your sword and armor right here, and they are pathetic compared to my skillfully crafted items.

PKer1: Damn you Knightbane, and your painfully horrible yet undeniably ingenius idea! Damn you!

 

What do you think?

 

~Exit Light, Enter Night

[Kasgoroth]

I think that you have just eliminated the need for me to open another thread LOL :!: , really. I had a couple of ideas that differed with your first post a lot, so I though about making a new thread but your last reply made me believe that it's actually better to continue yours :wink:

 

My argument with the "+2 Damage" vs "+4 Damage" was actually more targeted at the fact that weapons/armor, or in fact ANY item in EL is created within seconds if you have the ingredients needed. Combine that with the fact that I replied to your "regulated bonus system"-post and what you'll get is a blacksmith who buys tons of steel bars (or produces them himself) and makes 50 swords with "+4 Damage". For a Two Edged Steel Sword you'll need 2 iron and 16 steel bars, so 50 swords would require 800 steel bars and only 100 iron bars. If you've been trading with middle-to-high-lvl players you know that means almost nothing to them (especially if they produce the bars themselves and don't need to pay for them or have friends who smelt bars for them). This means one high-lvl blacksmith could make large quantities of high-quality swords in a quite short amount of time covering ALL demand from the current playerbase. Even if he'd sell them for 20K each (or even cheaper) he would still make a profit. I hope I made it clear to you, though it doesn't matter now that you dropped the "regelated bonus system"-idea in favor of a system based on chances. I just felt the need to explain myself :roll:

 

Anyways, what I had in mind is quite similar to what you have already suggested, or could be handled as an addition.

 

For my examples I'll take the formula you've been using:

 

N...................Level to make item.

Nc..................Current Manufacturing Level

 

 

What if we had some values to choose from while making weapons? e.g. next to the MIX button (or over it, whatever... just imagine an advanced manu-menu) you'll have boxes where you could put numbers in out of a certain range, like:

 

- 0-50.000 for Strenght

- 0-50.000 for Special Monster Bonus

- 0-50.000 for extra Durability

 

and so on, there can be more (or completely different) modifiers that may affect the manu-result, just be patient and wait for my explanation *g*.

 

Now before you do your mix, assign the numbers (just by choosing one out of the valid range), like this:

 

- 340 for Strenght

- 4500 for Special Monster Bonus

- 7600 for extra Durability

 

then you MIX.

 

The unique modifiers the weapon gets right after the mix (like "+4 Damage", or "+2 to Hit", OR "+3 to Hit Goblins") will depend on the numbers you assigned for the 3 special values (as above), this can work as an additon to your suggestion Knightbane (not instead of it). Though I haven't explained yet what I mean with those modifiers :wink:

 

So to come to the point: each item you'll try to produce can have fixed hidden values (in my example out of those 3 above) for a successful enhancing attempt based on the players Nc e.g

 

As you reach LVL-30 in MANU your char will get fixed (hidden) values assigned for each weapon/armor you can create with your MANU skill based on your Nc of the item.

 

example: to make a very good "+# Damage" sword you'd need to enter the number "3450" into the first of the three modifier boxes, thus Strenght. But you won't know this perfect number, you can only guess it while you are still LVL-30 in manu. If you enter "200" for Strenght you might get a 1% chance to increase the damage done by the sword by a number between 1-3. Coming closer to the hidden value of "3450" for that sword you'll get a higher chance of creating a powerful item. So to say, if you happen to enter the value 3300, which is quite close to "3450" you'll get a 70% chance of giving the sword you'll produce a damage of a higher range, like 5-13.

 

Then after you LVL-UP your MANU to 31, all those hidden values for ALL items you are able to produce will be calculated again, by using the same formula with an aditional modifier so ppl won't be able to backtrack the calculation.

 

So to give you one more example:

 

You are 30 in MANU and you're trying to make an enhanced Iron Sword.

 

- The hidden Strenght-value for the Iron Sword would be 3450.

- The hidden Special Monster Bonus-value for the Iron Sword would be 25700.

- The hidden extra Durability-value for the Iron Sword would be 35.600.

 

You enter the following numbers into the value-boxes as followed:

 

- 3.000 for Strenght

- 700 for Special Monster Bonus

- 40.000 for extra Durability

 

Accoring to those numbers the chances to enhance the Iron Sword would be:

 

- Strenght: 60% chance of making an Iron Sword with "+3-6 Damage" (where any number between 3 and 6 will be assigned randomly)

- Special Monster Bonus: as you completely missed the hidden value here, you'll only get a 1% chance to get a weapon with "+1-3 To Hit a certain kind of monster"

- extra Durability: you are close to the hidden number, but not close enough, you'll only get a 30% chance to increase the weapons Durability by any number between 1-5

 

I'm well aware that I haven't provided any real formula, but unfortunately I'm really not so good in math, to be honest I'm quite bad in calculating numbers and resolving formulas :roll: but I hope I could at least explain my idea, so if the dev's like it, or at least find parts of it interesting I'm sure they can come up with a decent formula for it.

[Knightbane]

That is an interesting way to do it. So there is a unique "Optimum #' that is hidden from each player at each manu level. The closer they get to this # when punching in the values, the better the chance and the better the weapon, correct? A good formula for this would be

 

|((Chosen Value)-(Optimum#))/(Optimum#)|

 

The vertical lines mean absolute value, by the way, so it will work weather the number is higher or lower than the optimum. Come to think of it, that's the Percent Error equation. :lol:

 

I like the Special Monster Bonus. It's a very unique concept that I don't think I have seen anywhere else. It would be nice to have the legendary Goblin Sword, or maybe the Ogre Hammer. O yea. Not like they would be named that, but I'd call them that anyways. :roll:

 

Now, you mentioned this being related to the user's current manu level, and the level it takes to make the item, but you never said how exactly. It's based on it, but I'm not really sure how I could put it in formula speak. I kinda like having it put in formula, just because it becomes more than just speculation, but nearly possible, ya know?

 

The one downside to that is that it relies more on luck than on your manu level. (Well, as it is now. Maybe there is a way to combine the two formulas we have made, and still have it make sense )

What's durability, by the way? I mean, what would it relate to? Hit, defense?

 

I am going to say again, I don't know what is required to make these items. Kasgoroth, you lead me to believe that values for weapons can be assigned by the player while making the item, but how would that 'jive' with storage? There are many different combinations with both our methods, and too many could very well confuse the hell out of the server.

 

Hey, fighters have their new capes. Why can't crafters have their unique items too? The fighters then sell the capes to the crafters for these weapons, and business will again flourish! :roll:

I can dream, can't I?

 

~Exit Light, Enter Night

[ShadowKnight]

Ok, now the question remains...who's going to dl the source code and figure out how it could be done?

 

Also, we need unique stuff for other stats! It's always fighting this, manu that, how come nobody suggests that higher alch levels can make purer metals? (me excluded) so better alch people can make 24K gold instead of 20K. Ok, i think i saw something like that for pots, but that's it.

[Knightbane]

One step at a time, Shadow, one step at a time.

 

~Exit Light, Enter Night

[Kasgoroth]

I see what you mean and I've already thought about that, though I can't put it in math no matter how hard I try :lol: - so someone else gonna do it. The calculation that include both your current MANU LVL should give the blacksmith more chances to guess the hidden value as he LVLs up in MANU.

 

example:

 

Let's assume that the range of valid values stays at "0-50.000" and as your MANU-LVL you must come as close as 500 to the hidden value in order to see some improvements:

 

MANU-LVL: 21

Hidden value = 4500

 

Whenever you choose to use a number over 5000 or under 4000 you will only get this very low chance of 1% (or maybe 5% ?) to create an enhanced item. Besides the advancement of % rises only slowly as you approach the hidden value (perhaps with 4300 your chance will only increase to 20%, and at 4450 to 50%, so at this MANU-LVL you'll have to be VERY close to the hidden value to get your higher chances).

 

Now with higher MANU-LVL the range around the hidden value where the %-chance starts increasing is extended to 700. And so on...

 

Of course the range decreases again if you try to make an item that requires a higher LVL to make it will you get reasonable chances of guessing the hidden value or at least coming close to it.

 

You can play around with the values as long as you like, the valid range may be 0-1.000.000 instead of just 0-50.000, once we figure out the basics values can be adapted and improved by testing the system out.

 

----

 

As for Durability, it's a property for a weapon or armor that is quite often used in games (online or single-player). I believe that each game had different formulas for calculating the durability of a weapon/armor (it isn't as simple as giving a weapon only 130 possible hits and then it breaks). One way would be make a check each time you hit a monster/other player with that weapon for one durability point to decrease. e.g. if a weapon has 100 Durability it may break or become useless after 400 hits, or after 500 - it depends on luck and perhaps some other values you put into the formula.

 

For a weapon durability means: how long can you use that weapon "efficiently/at full strenght/or at all", so as durability of a weapon drops it may or may not affect it's power (it's up to the game designer to decide which exact properties durability should have), but once it's at 0 the weapon will either break or just become useless and you'll have to repair it.

 

For a piece of armor durability means: actually almost the same, only it affects it's ability to absorb damage. You may add certain LVLs where durability will affect your armor, e.g.:

 

Plate Armor with Durability of 100 - gives you AR +5

 

As long as the durability of that armor stays over 70 the armor uses it's full potential. When it drops to 69 and goes down it loses it's armor bonuses. Perhaps by 1, so at DUR 50-69 it will absorb only 4 damage instead of 5, at 30-49 only 3 damage, and so on.

 

It's totally up to the game designer how exactly DUR will work in a game, but I hope you got the basics.

 

Have I left anything out this time? It's a shame that I can't create a functional formula for you, but here I come to my limits *g*, so if you Knightbane or anyone else actually undestands what I'm trying to suggest here and is able to put it in math I'd definitely love to see it.

 

It would be also quite interesting to know if the implementation of such a system into EL is possible at all :wink:

[Knightbane]

Ok, this is how I interpreted your explanation.

Here is a picture that may explain it better than words can.

What it shows:

The probability of making an Iron Sword with a +1-3 Damage Bonus.

 

As you hit lvl 21, you begin in the red region. Here, you have little to no chance of getting the bonus. As your MANU lvl improves, you reach the Beginner Range, which allows room for a bit more error. You then progress through the graph, until your level is so far above the needed (lvl 40 maybe) that you always make the said item. Note that this is, again, for the lowest bonus range. This may or may not be what you wanted to convey, but it is how I interpreted it.

 

Now, a problem with this idea in the way I interpreted it ( ) is that at a substantial levle aways from the needed lvl, the crafter would be able to make the item perfectly every time. Now, although this seems to make sence, it also brings about the problem you stated before: Who wants to buy a +2 sword when they can buy a +4 sword? Even though it is still a ranged bonus, they will still get a couple nice +3's out of it, even if most of them are +1's and +2's. Now, we have one crafter flooding the market with +3 swords, and selling the others off to Trik. Not too great.

 

Another problem with this is the calculations. In order for the graph to progress evenly with your MANU level, and at every level get a tad bigger, we would need to use Integrational Calculus. That would, from my experiences with integration :lol:, require (bluntly put) shit-loads of work to produce the wanted effect. One integration equation is hard enough, but in adding one to every weapon, plus adding them to every comprehendable bonus range...Weeks to months of effort I'd estimate. :x

That's not even adding in your idea of durability, which would also require the same amount of integration.

 

I'm not saying the idea is bad (far from it ), but it is definitely complicated. I don't even want to think of how the system will make a unique hidden value for every player, at every MANU lvl. I don't want to bash your idea in favor of my own, but simple probability equations are easier to add than Integral Calculus, I think anyways. Maybe the Dev team has a different opinion, I dunno.

 

~Exit Light, Enter Night :?

[Kasgoroth]

Well I don't know about the math needed for this, you do so if you say that it will be so hard I guess you're right - so much for the math.

 

But if we put aside the complexity of such a system just for a moment and return to the theory (the part I feel comfortable with *g*), so I can reply to your statement:

 

There should never be a 100% chance of creating an item, not even if you hit the perfect value, I'd say the highest chance should be 90% in all cases for ALL calculations. Besides the item you are about to make will always get those end-modifiers at random, so even if you have a 90% chance of making an enhanced Iron Sword with a +5-13 Damage modifier you will still have no control over exact modifiers that the weapon will get in the end. They can either have a totally random assignment (between +5 & +13 in this example), or be calculated on their own, always in favor of the smallest number. Even for a high-lvl blacksmith it should still be hard to create a sword with +13 Damage or the like. If he makes 30 swords, perhaps only one of them will turn out to be +10, all the others more like +5 and +7.

 

Thus accoring to your graphic there will be no MASTER-RANGE, the hidden value should ALWAYS, at each LVL require ppl to find it or come close to it. It should just be made a LOT easier for blacksmiths whose MANU is 10 or 20 LVLs over the required LVL to find or come close to this hidden number. The MASTER-RANGE could end somewhere in the middle of the SKILLED-RANGE in your graphic. I mean it won't be so hard to find it anyway, our blacksmiths are making dozens of swords within minutes of gameplay, tweaking it won't require SO much time. Besides the higher your MANU-LVL is the longer you'll stay at that LVL (because it's gettin' harder to LVL-UP), thus having more time to play around with the values.

 

One more thing... the more modifiers you implement the better such a system can eventually get (in terms of variety of the final products). Right now I introduced the first 3 things that came to my mind (Strenght, Special Monster Bonus & extra Durability), but what you implement in the end can be more or less. You might want to start with a single modifier in the beginning and add more modifiers with updates. Also... to make it even more complex (so it's impossible to implement this suggestion for sure :roll: , the dev's will spit at me), different modifiers could (and should IMO) affect each other. So if you're trying to make a sword with +10 Damage AND +5 Special Bonus Monster you should be given a hard time in getting the best values for each modifier. The results of your crafting attempts should be balanced out, so that you don't get the highest modifiers for all bonuses at the same time (for the same item).

 

Of course the problem of "a high-lvl blacksmith selling good items at low prices" won't go away that easily, but if you create a MANU-system that makes it quite hard for everyone (be it a lvl 21 or lvl 40 manufacturer) to craft exceptional items, every blacksmith will think twice before selling a really good weapon for a low price. Also, ppl won't play 24/7 - even the nuttiest of the powergamers will need to sleep, eat or work for RL money This is why a property like durability is important to solve this problem. Items that last forever are teh evil :twisted: they create such problems in the first place.

[harrybacklarry]

well i thot i was kinda smart and u guys cunfused the hell out of me... but i do knoe that u r overcomplicating it... wat evry1 really wants is fairly obvious... evry single item needs a quality rating and evry bonus that item has wuld be improved (or decreased) by that quality rating and the rating wuld have a simple formula like say

(playermanu-itemreqlevel)-(maxqualitybonus)

+random(2*maxqualitybonus) = itemqualitybonus

 

note: random(value) is a very simple command used in nearly all programming languages

 

ok so with this u can include the *very awesome* idea about monster bonuses etc and the idea of item wear and tear (quality bonus decreases slowly until the item breaks wen it hits say -3) and most importantly imo the solution to all ur 'who wants a +2...' problems, the idea of weapon limits however rather than simply saying only a lvl 25+ can use a tit short or sumthin like that u say only a lvl 25+ can use a weapon with over +5damage or something like that...

 

one last note: becus of the fact that altho a +3to-hit gobs sword is awesome not all of the swords of that type wuld get +3to-hit gobs cus obviously an iron sword isnt just naturally magic like that so: u add in enchanting! eg iron sword(+4dmg blah blah +1quality) + goblin scalp(hehe) + (?)death ess [all in mix window] = iron sword(+4dmg blah blah +1to-hit goblins +1quality) and all the sudden YAY weve got a goblin slayer(even if it is a ghettoe iron version)

 

ok thas all and btw i was wundering... if i did dl the source code and add in all these great ideas and then sent it back to ent wuld he review it?

[Knightbane]

I don't know. I sent Entropy a PM about this idea, and he sent me back a simple PM saying, "unfortunately our server doesn't suport a 'quality' factor, there are only fixed items."

 

I sent him back another PM saying that each bonus item would be its own fixed item, but I never got a reply. I know he is a man of few words, but it would be nice to get some reasoning once and a while.

 

I want to see this implemented, as I said many times before, but a lack of intrest from the big guy himself is a bit discouraging. I'm glad you two were interested enough to post constructively, at least. I thought some formulas might make this more realistic, so thanks for another one Larry. It's good to have some options.

 

~Exit Light, Enter Night

[marick146]

hey i might have a solution to ur idea, of

"who wabts a +2 when u can get a +4"

well u can make it that when u can make the higher lev swords u need mroe bars

therfore it wil cost u more and the price will go up

so no every1 will want to amek this sword as it gives a lil bit mroe exp, when u can make 1 similar for less bars.

u can do this to all

u would still haev ur basic iron sword

then enhanced might be 13 iron 2 steel

master could be 16 iron 4 steel

so even though the weapond is better and u can sell for more, u can now make a steel 2e for a about the same exp so not so many ppl would bother to amek them