Level Requirements.

[Aislinn]

Plus, manufacturing 1,000's of leather pants is not really the stuff of legends. 

187528[/snapback]

You'd be surprised

[Soldus]

You'd be surprised 

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[trollson]

On pants...

You'd be surprised 

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I have yet to produce any modable pants...

 

...and given the time I'm spending sitting in front of the computer I will need them soon!

[Aislinn]

On pants...

I have yet to produce any modable pants...

Tsk tsk tsk there is more to life than being modable...

...and given the time I'm spending sitting in front of the computer I will need them soon!

188005[/snapback]

Now you have a point here!

[gadai]

On this subject of MasterSmiths/MasterArtisans, I've been thinking that if each 'stage' (call it a 2-3 skill level range) had a different master, with each Master requiring a contribution of materials (for example purposes), coinage (as an apprentice fee) and time. If a player afk's during a training session ALL the exp from that session would be lost (a nod towards preventing AFK exping while remaining friendly towards people being unexpectably distracted). No, or very few, items would be produced during this process encouraging a more bouyant economy. Each 'training session' could last roughly an hour to allow people to schedule training time in RL. Obviously as a player gains skill levels it would take more time, resources and training sessions with the appropriate master.

 

If we wanted to really push the boat out the masters might do chat dialog boxes explaining the processes and techniques that they are training the character in during the training sessions. This would be educational...and stuff

 

On the subject of modable equipment - it is currently completely random chance, irregardless of the skill level of the maker as I understand it. I would love to see that changed to a sliding scale, the chance increasing the further one levels beyond the recommended for the production of that weapon. This would present the high manu characters such as L_c, LochnessLobster and Crannog (just mentioning the three that spring to mind) with a reason to continue developing their skills and increase the likelyhood that they would make things besides many pants/helms/gloves. What would also be great as an alternative would be that a character with say, 30-40 skill levels above the recommended could choose to make a modable version of a standard item. This obviously would require them to use much more ingreds or perhaps enhanced fire essences as part of the process. Once again, this presents the high level manufacturers with a tangible benefit for their hard work, though the con obviously would be that it would increase the number of (potentially) magic weapons in game, decreasing the possibility of website sales for the developers.

 

Finally, a quick vote in support of a player based economy - yep - make sand paper player manufacturable, picks, wine, etc, etc. I fully support this as it would give players more choices regarding 'career paths' and allow for a more flexible economy. The other side of this would be to restrict sales of this items from stores (by increasing the price in most cases - except sand paper which is already horrendous) to ensure that players prefer to purchase from other players rather then buy from the NPCs - after some time the 'value' of gold will stabilise based on the production/consumption of items - kinda like a free economy.

[trollson]

On the subject of modable equipment - it is currently completely random chance, irregardless of the skill level ... changed to a sliding scale, ... an alternative would be that a character with say, 30-40 skill levels above the recommended could choose to make a modable version of a standard item.

 

I agree that there should be some increase in the chance of producing an enhanced/modable item with level, though I feel that this chance should still remain low, perhaps not exceeding 1%. If characters can choose to make modables then they will just become another commodity; as levels only ever increase, then any level requirements set down now will be well populated as some point in the future -- "400 modable pants till level 230!".

[gadai]

If characters can choose to make modables then they will just become another commodity; as levels only ever increase, then any level requirements set down now will be well populated as some point in the future -- "400 modable pants till level 230!".

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But if those pants required an Enriched Earth Essence each then the random chance of EEE's would still throttle this type of behaviour. That said it is the more unlikely of those two suggestions to be implemented (not to imply that either ever will )

[trollson]

But if those pants required an Enriched Earth Essence each then the random chance of EEE's would still throttle this type of behaviour.

 

I have been assuming that 'moddable' and 'enhanced' where two forms of the same thing, and would have the same chance of occuring (relative to skill as applicable). You could have (say) moddable pants, but not enhanced ones, like you can have enhanced essences but not modable ones. Could be wrong though?

Edited August 16, 2005 by trollson

[gadai]

Nope - you're entirely right, modable and enhanced in terms of items are synonymous, as opposed to enchanted (magic). Obviously a cheap way to make moddable items would be unacceptable so for a char with the required 30-34 levels surplus give them the option of specifically attempting to create a moddable item but at a vastly increased cost (by including an enhanced essence in the recipe for example). The item would still have to be enchanted at a later point.

 

To use pants as an example:

 

Leather pants are level 12 (recommended), the character Manufacturer has a manu skill 30-40 levels higher then this and desires a pair of modable pants to look cool on rooftops in VOTD. Manufacturer takes the normal ingreds for a pair or leather pants + one (or more) enhanced earth essences and manufacturers the modable pants. If Manufacturer wished to enchant them (i.e. make them magic) later there would be an additional cost.

 

Hope this clarifies where I've been going with this

Edited August 16, 2005 by gadai

[trollson]

So we are agreed -- moddable pants will be in the next release

[duran]

thing is that i think nexus levels where supposed to work as a kind of level requirement. problem is that entropy in his visdom decreed that the highest level weapons and armor should be available to anyone with a nexus level of 5.

 

problem is that you start out with 5 pick points as a fresh char! and then by picking flowers for about a RL day you can get another 10-20!

 

basicly the nexus requirements for diffrent stuff should be increased by about 5-10 points across the board. this way people either specialize to hit an ability fast or generalize and grows slower...

 

so either fast growth in a limited area or slow but balanced growth...

[gadai]

Duran, I don't think if you can have a system where a player can be prevented from specialising on a single skill with enough determination to level it quickly. It is already difficult for someone to develop an all rounder char, see here as an example - I have no nexus above 3 besides vegetal!. That character has been focused on the maker skills for the last 3 months straight (reset to do so after a fun month of fighting and learning about the game) and I play alot. My point is that unless a skill exp per hour comes in on all areas that you will always have players that focus on a particular skill and level quickly irregardless of nexus requirements.

 

Guh - finished work - will write more later from the comfort of home.

Edited August 18, 2005 by gadai

[Placid]

thing is that i think nexus levels where supposed to work as a kind of level requirement. problem is that entropy in his visdom decreed that the highest level weapons and armor should be available to anyone with a nexus level of 5.

 

problem is that you start out with 5 pick points as a fresh char! and then by picking flowers for about a RL day you can get another 10-20!

 

basicly the nexus requirements for diffrent stuff  should be increased by about 5-10 points across the board. this way people either specialize to hit an ability fast or generalize and grows slower...

 

so either fast growth in a limited area or slow but balanced growth...

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I disagree. Nexus should stay as they are, and LEVEL based requirements should have the deciding factor. Nexi are way to hard to get, and that'd just make things WAY to challenging.

 

If level requirements were used instead, it gives you a target, not just another OA.

[Brom]

I disagree. Nexus should stay as they are, and LEVEL based requirements should have the deciding factor.

Ditto

[gadai]

I've been thinking a fair bit over the last few days regarding making modable items, on purpose as opposed to by random chance, the following are the latest round of ideas for discussion/critism (using weapons as an example):

 

If EL is a fantasy setting (which with monsters and magic it obviously is) it only stands to reason that sufficiently skilled manufacturers with a deep knowledge of magic and weaponry would be able to intentionally make a modable weapon (which could be regarded as a magic sword 'blank'), which could then be 'upgraded' to a magical weapon. My initial post suggesting that 30-40 levels is, in retrospect too low. A skill level 40-50 levels higher would be more appropriate, with an attack skill at least 20 levels above the recommended manu level of the weapon being produced and a magic skill at the same level as the attack skill (the creation of the item requiring a mana cost as well as food).

 

To compliment the idea of manu and magic skills being combined introduce effects on weapons - a tit serp of poison for instance or an iron broad of harm. These items would obviously require huge manu, magic and attack skills and cost a bundle to make.

 

Pro's:

 

Gives manufacturers a reason to level beyond 50 - in fact gives them a reason to level to 100 with the weapons in game at the moment and probably higher post update.

Introduces more variety to the types of weapons available - as time goes on remove the ones which are never made/sold and replace with appropriate player suggested options.

 

Cons:

 

Increases the amounts of these items within game, causing a decrease in price, adversely affecting the economy (suggest making the weapons horribly expense to produce - a cost = current price of the item on market - 20% seems appropriate and introduce an attack skill requirement for the items).

 

Now, tell me what I've missed?

[Brom]

You have missed that custom weapons currently can only be bought from the EL shop. If they can be made in the game, the people who have spent RL money will be sad Ill ponder more on it later.

[gadai]

According to rumour (good ol Rumour - must create the char! ) the ability to enchant modable weapons to magic is due to come into play in the next couple of updates, which means that they will be unhappy soon enough anyway

[Phenic]

Hullo, this all sounds vaugely familiar.

[Derin]

Level requirements are not a good solution. We have the nexus requirements and the price tag to regulate accessibility of arms and armors.

 

I think the requirements are good as they are. Why? you might ask. Here is my reply:

 

A game is for fun. Rememer that each player plays their "own" game in that sense. So if your perception of fun is to buy a full set of plate armor from the EL shop ($30 USD) then you should be able to use them, given that you have the required nexuses (which aren't that hard to get). Or if you amass the money to buy the goods in-game - why not?

 

By separating high lvl players from low level players (arms/armor-wise), you will take out a lot of fun in PK, since it it will be very predictable.

[Placid]

No I think your missing the point Derin.

 

Level requirements create a challenge, a target, something to look/work forward too.

 

If you play other games, this is in ALL MMORPG's becuase it balances the development of a character/player.

 

Its great to get a bit of EQ, and then work hard so you can finally wear it and reap the rewards of your hardwork.

[Aislinn]

No I think your missing the point Derin.

 

Level requirements create a challenge, a target, something to look/work forward too.

 

If you play other games, this is in ALL MMORPG's becuase it balances the development of a character/player.

 

Its great to get a bit of EQ, and then work hard so you can finally wear it and reap the rewards of your hardwork.

189129[/snapback]

Absolutely.

[Derin]

No I think your missing the point Derin.

 

Level requirements create a challenge, a target, something to look/work forward too.

 

If you play other games, this is in ALL MMORPG's becuase it balances the development of a character/player.

 

Its great to get a bit of EQ, and then work hard so you can finally wear it and reap the rewards of your hardwork.

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I see your point Placid. My input was another point, ie the point of my point so to speak

 

My point was that ppl see this differently, and I say: let them see it in many ways. I n my book, it's the diversity of game play that creates a good game.

 

So your point is very valid, althogh it will put restrictions to the gaming experience for some. And still, one MAJOR problem would be in PK

[Placid]

. And still, one MAJOR problem would be in PK

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True, but who PK's outside of a/d 60+ anyway?

[gadai]

Been thinking alot about this thread over the last few weeks and I remembered a system of economy control that some of the older Diku MUDs used to use:

 

Equipment Rental.

 

Equipment rental was appplied to all completed equipment (vastly less range in the circumstances I've encountered in before though). Each time a player logged out a % of the total value of their equipment was deducted from their gold. This meant that the more expensive/extensive a players equipments were the more expensive it was to store them, thus making the richest (resources) players pay the most and poor (resources) players pay the least.

 

Obviously this could cause problems for characters with large stores of completed items in storage - oh but wait, don't we want to stop mass producing?

 

The obvious way to circumvent this is to never log out - but if the server automatically disconnected you after an hour of afk that problem would be solved (unless players used illegal autoclickers, in which case they get banned anyhow).

 

I realise that most of the game would see problems with this idea - so please pick away at it - who knows, we might come out with something useful?

Edited September 6, 2005 by gadai