PvP instances

[Caliphear]

Korrodes idea tbh just sounds like kf. No offense but If you want to just fight ppl go to kf. It would come in handy for those of us who cant compete with the pr0's but ppl who do not normaly pk i dont see wanting to go pk with ppl they dont know. They usually feel more comfortable with their friends. All I am seeing are the normal high level pkers looking for a different pk. Not the average players opportunity to do something different and have a chance without being harassed. Radu's idea gives more options than to just go kill. Bringing in all other skills not just a/d.

 

As far as the other skills, if your using a/d as basis then those with low a/d but high ranging or high engineering would be left out, or qued with low level and be op. I think thats what radu is getting at. I can be 30's a/d and have a high ranging level + 60 ap and take out everyone in my a/d range. Which brings it right back to the lower a/d ppl being killed in seconds. (same problem they have with dpa etc).

 

I'm far from pr0 but this is how i see it from the "avarage joe's" point of view

Edited May 13, 2011 by Caliphear

[korrode]

but ppl who do not normaly pk i dont see wanting to go pk with ppl they dont know.

Well that's not what people who don't normally PK tell me (of which i have consulted quite a few in regards to this). In fact, very few have said PK'ing alongside people they don't know would be a detrimental issue.

They tell me (in essence) that they don't PK because they feel it pointless and redundant to be 2-hit by people twice their a/d. Which is something that cannot happen in my design, but can happen in Radu's.

 

My design is not like KF. You can face me in KF Cali, and i'll wipe you away easily. You won't face me in my instance proposal.

 

Also, my list in this thread states "Everyone in instance will be within a close range of strength.", i don't mention a/d specifically because I by no means recommend it be the only factor in determining 'strength'. The only reason i used a/d levels as the only factor in the other thread was purely to keep it very simple and easy to implement. It's already been established that using other factors as well (attributes, other combat skills) can be used, and I support that concept, although i think a/d should still play a prominent role in strength assessment, but not be the only factor.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Korrode

[Nova]

Korrodes idea tbh just sounds like kf. No offense but If you want to just fight ppl go to kf.

Yep, because that is working so well now. People are flooding into KF to fight. Radu's idea sound more like KF to me where there will be a team of unbeatables that no one will want to fight and the whole idea dies by the wayside.

 

It would come in handy for those of us who cant compete with the pr0's but ppl who do not normaly pk i dont see wanting to go pk with ppl they dont know. They usually feel more comfortable with their friends.

Gosh thats funny because I can't even count how many people who I have talked to who are hoping the random queue idea gets imlenented so they can try a little bit of quick PK against people they don't already know. And most of these people admit to wanting random queue becaue they admit human nature gets the better of them and they end up just picking what they know and not trying anything different.

 

All I am seeing are the normal high level pkers looking for a different pk. Not the average players opportunity to do something different and have a chance without being harassed. Radu's idea gives more options than to just go kill. Bringing in all other skills not just a/d.

That's funny, I just went thru the thread again real quick and all i am seeing is people, high lvl PKers or not, saying that they like Korr's idea because it is different. (Of course thats not the ONLY thing I see, but anyone can say something like that to try to sway people to their way of thinking right?) Both these ideas are so different from each other it is unfair to put them up against each other tbh.

 

As far as the other skills, if your using a/d as basis then those with low a/d but high ranging or high engineering would be left out, or qued with low level and be op. I think thats what radu is getting at. I can be 30's a/d and have a high ranging level + 60 ap and take out everyone in my a/d range. Which brings it right back to the lower a/d ppl being killed in seconds. (same problem they have with dpa etc).

Also i'm fairly certain Korr was talking about some sort of formula that will factor in more then just a/d. (also, YOU'RE*)

 

I'm far from pr0 but this is how i see it from the "avarage joe's" point of view

Nope, you are giving your point of view and calling it everyone's

Edited May 13, 2011 by Nova

[Aislinn]

Anybody shooting off their mouth about only high level pr0 pkers wanting this look at my stats lately?

 

 

Although I am honored caliphear thinks I'm pr0! (You must have been talking to Ghrae...)

[Robb]

I would really love to see the two ideas merged somewhat, Korrodes queueing and balancing with the different game types Radu mentioned.

[Nova]

+1 robb. honestly I'd like to see radu's idea w/ both random queue and 'make your own' teams. But I'd still like to see Korr's in game w/ the random queue and the short fights. I honestly see Korr's idea perking up regular PK a bit as well. If it works as it is intended I have a feeling that I'm going to try some, like it, and then try some more regular PK on my own with friends. I don't want to speak for anyone but I'll put my money on the idea that more then just me will think along those lines. I'm sure there are some that will try it and hate it and never do it again, but thats just like any idea.

[Caliphear]

I am going by ppl i have talked to who do not pk.And the vast majority of the post i have seen are pkers. Ofc there is good sides to both ideas and i am in no way trying to say my views are everyones. Nor that my opinion is correct. If I am please show me where i said that. But i was under the assumption opinions were wanted so i gave mine. Attack me for my opinion if you wish but its my opinion. I don't attack yours.And i dont kiss ass with the popular vote and in no way disrespecting anyone elses.

 

In my opinion The reason kf doesnt work is because of the few who prey on anyone walking into the map. Which before you attack me on that statement , if you enter a pk map then you should expect to be attacked. I do all the time and never do i cry about it. My pki proves that. I do it because i enjoy the challenge even though i do die. New players give up because of this from what I have seen.

 

And yes korrode i see what your saying and if you can take all of that into consideration i would agree. It would be very nice to see ppl able to participate no matter what skill they chose. As i said long ago it would be nice if the two ideas could merge giving us the option.

 

What i do like in radu's proposal is you can choose to DENY a match if the other team is too op. And the diversity of the kinds of matches ie capture the flag etc. A more strategic game is what peeks my interest. Like League of Legends EL style. My one last opinion since i will no doubtedly be attacked again, is ease of use. I do agree simple is best as we are lazy and more likely to do something if we can just click a button on the client. And were we not going for 3v3 matches and 5v5 matches? Instead of trying to make it so many people?

Edited May 13, 2011 by Caliphear

[Nova]

Learn what attacking is and what an opposing opinion is. Learn what ass kissing is. Also learn that you can't proclaim yourself a certain 5 letter word over and over but still try to play the poor helpless victim. And biggest of all, learn when to use your and you're.

 

 

Ofc there is good sides to both ideas and i am in no way trying to say my views are everyones. Nor that my opinion is correct. If I am please show me where i said that.

It would come in handy for those of us who cant compete with the pr0's but ppl who do not normaly pk i dont see wanting to go pk with ppl they dont know. They usually feel more comfortable with their friends.

 

All I am seeing are the normal high level pkers looking for a different pk. Not the average players opportunity to do something different and have a chance without being harassed.

 

What i do like in radu's proposal is you can choose to DENY a match if the other team is too op.

And once that all star dream team of PKers choses to work together all the time everyone will be DENYING to fight them now just like KF.

[elg3neral]

my 2 cents

 

I think Aslinn is right that we comparing apples and oranges,.

both ideas sounds great and its hard to choose.

 

My feeling likes Radu's more , becouse of the deversety and able to use nice tactics.

But wat I have seen in EL about pk'ng and looking at player base, peeps behavior how they play etc.

 

I think the best choice is to go with mr.K's idea.

This way more peeps can easier go pk'ng its alot faster, we dont need endless time to get team togeter etc.

What i have seen about how long it takes to make teams to go instance.

I'm afraid that with Radu's idea it will be the same.

 

And for those who dont have many pk budies can go to, and experience pk in el.

 

So I think at this time mr. K's idea is better then Radu's.

 

[Caliphear]

Learn what attacking is and what an opposing opinion is. Learn what ass kissing is. Also learn that you can't proclaim yourself a certain 5 letter word over and over but still try to play the poor helpless victim. And biggest of all, learn when to use your and you're.

 

 

Ofc there is good sides to both ideas and i am in no way trying to say my views are everyones. Nor that my opinion is correct. If I am please show me where i said that.

It would come in handy for those of us who cant compete with the pr0's but ppl who do not normaly pk i dont see wanting to go pk with ppl they dont know. They usually feel more comfortable with their friends.

 

All I am seeing are the normal high level pkers looking for a different pk. Not the average players opportunity to do something different and have a chance without being harassed.

 

What i do like in radu's proposal is you can choose to DENY a match if the other team is too op.

And once that all star dream team of PKers choses to work together all the time everyone will be DENYING to fight them now just like KF.

 

And my point is made. Go back and read the original posts. I said a long time ago the same thing Robb said and you criticized. Someone else says it and your behind them.I am not here to keep some stupid rivalry going with you. I gave my opinion. You dont like it dont read it. Since everyones opinions arent welcome, one sided arguements is all you will get.Have fun.

 

as for your and you're i dont care. you get the drift.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Caliphear

[groomsh]

• Player made teams. You join a guild (can join/leave whenever you want, subject to the GM approval).
  
• One guild challenge another, and when that happens each guild can see the other guild overall PK strength.
  
• If the other guild accepts the challenge, they go to an NPC which teleports them to an instance.
  

 

From this i thought there you'll be able to form more then two guilds/teams (what would make sense if Radu was thinking about tournaments).

Taking this into account, i really don't get the argument about fighting a team of pr0's (or the lack of interest in entering an instance because the fear of always fighting against team of pr0's)...

If you can chose a team you want to fight against (i understood it this way from 2nd and 3rd quoted point) then i don't get the whole hype about always fighting a team of pr0's...

Or did i get something wrong ?

[Nova]

lol rivalry. Cute. I'm not fond of you so I will tend to go harder on your opinions but you are the one crying that I am unfairly singling you out. Check any thread I have ever posted in, I'm not shy about telling people I think they are wrong, asking for further clarification, arguing a point, making my own clarification, or on the rare occasion just plain calling someone a moron. The argument is one sided because you cry unfair when I have something to say about something you've said rather then continuing along a useful vein of conversation.

 

Many of the negative comments you made about the random queue idea can be applied to the other idea. You were making an argument out of something that had already been solved/stated in previous posts. You were making generalizations based on the opinion of a few people you had talked to so I did the same. Those were my points.

 

It's still my opinion that both ideas are good, and will get used, and have pros and cons like everything, and should be in game.

 

edit* and since I seem to be channeling Dr. King in my later post, this seems appropriate "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -- Martin Luther King, Jr. You and yours might want to think about that if you're not going to care about simple simple little things like your and you're.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Nova

[Nova]

• Player made teams. You join a guild (can join/leave whenever you want, subject to the GM approval).
  
• One guild challenge another, and when that happens each guild can see the other guild overall PK strength.
  
• If the other guild accepts the challenge, they go to an NPC which teleports them to an instance.
  

 

From this i thought there you'll be able to form more then two guilds/teams (what would make sense if Radu was thinking about tournaments).

Taking this into account, i really don't get the argument about fighting a team of pr0's (or the lack of interest in entering an instance because the fear of always fighting against team of pr0's)...

If you can chose a team you want to fight against (i understood it this way from 2nd and 3rd quoted point) then i don't get the whole hype about always fighting a team of pr0's...

Or did i get something wrong ?

 

My concern was that the only team to go up against will be a team of pr0s. You could deny fighting that pr0 team if you are a newbie PK team but will there be another suitably leveled team to play against? I'm not sure if others had different concerns.

[groomsh]

My concern was that the only team to go up against will be a team of pr0s. You could deny fighting that pr0 team if you are a newbie PK team but will there be another suitably leveled team to play against? I'm not sure if others had different concerns.

Well i don't think there will be a big problem to find let's say 6-8 people for this instance - not if you're not a total ***

Also, if you decide who you fight with and against, it's your rules and your instance "setup"... This is what i like about the idea, because i don't care much about PK in overall, but it would be fun to make some friendly fights without interference of some ebul pr0's .

 

This is also completely different from gathering people for PvE instances - there are a/d rules enforced by server and also your #ii must be ok, you need to have a rosto (or more), you need good equip etc etc etc ...

[Nova]

It might not be a problem, but then again it might and should be voiced so it can be considered. It's like the part of the thread that talks about people griefing the other idea. All the conversation lead to a few good solutions. I think the more types of activities in game the better. Hopefully we'll see the mixer instance idea someday too. I dream of an EL where the problem of the day is 'what fun thing should I pick to do? ...OMG I can't decide because there are so many.' *shakes head* oh sorry, I think I might have been channeling Dr. King or something.

[Entropy]

Can you elaborate a bit more on where the bot(s) are going to be and how it's going to work?

The bot would be in KF, or whatever map is decided.

 

Are you intending for the teams to start at opposite sides of KF? or right next to each other?

Why start at opposite ends? Wouldn't matter anyway. They will start both at the same location, however they will not be allowed to attack each other until the bot gives the starting signal (in about 30 seconds or so).

 

What if someone flees in an attempt to buy time to restore mana and then you've got the teams split up a bit and there's 2 battles going on outside sight range of each other, how will the bot monitor it all for interference?

 

The bot would be unable to monitor that, but if that happens and we get reports of it happening, I'll take action against those who break the rules.

 

Is there some way a bot can montior all combat happening in the whole of KF that i'm unaware of?

Nope. But it can also monitor channel 6 for PK deaths messages.

 

Anyway, if it turns out to be a big problem, I am sure we can move it to some other place.

 

Yep, because that is working so well now. People are flooding into KF to fight. Radu's idea sound more like KF to me where there will be a team of unbeatables that no one will want to fight and the whole idea dies by the wayside.

I stopped reading right here. If you want me to read your posts, it would be a good idea to actually read mine and not try to spread crap that I did not say or imply.

[Caliphear]

lol rivalry. Cute. I'm not fond of you so I will tend to go harder on your opinions but you are the one crying that I am unfairly singling you out. Check any thread I have ever posted in, I'm not shy about telling people I think they are wrong, asking for further clarification, arguing a point, making my own clarification, or on the rare occasion just plain calling someone a moron. The argument is one sided because you cry unfair when I have something to say about something you've said rather then continuing along a useful vein of conversation.

 

Many of the negative comments you made about the random queue idea can be applied to the other idea. You were making an argument out of something that had already been solved/stated in previous posts. You were making generalizations based on the opinion of a few people you had talked to so I did the same. Those were my points.

 

First of all i never cried anything. And I too say what i think like it or leave it. In this instance i agree with radu's idea. So leave your flames at the door.

 

The comments i have made about the problems with queing comes from my experience in other games in which random queing were used. Which is why "idealy" an option to chose random or chose your own group would be better. Radu doesnt want the trouble , wants to make it simple and thats up to him and / or whoever codes it. So again I say read the posts dont pick and chose. My opinion hasnt wavered from our discussions in channel 6 either although i do understand korrodes side more. Radu's requires no rosto and gives you an amount of lives. Also points in which i personaly like. Quick pk to me can be done in kf.

 

And Aislinn it was a figure of speech but you can be as pr0 as you want to be.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Caliphear

[Nova]

First off, saying that you are being singled out and attacked when people don't agree with your opinions is crying. What fricken flames? I don't agree w/ you so I'm flaming?

 

About all your opinions, great, I had my own and voiced them too and they were different then yours. The difference here is that you are trying to play the victim and turn opposing opinion into personal attack. With the amount of back and forth on this thread alone I think it's pretty obvious I'm reading the posts. You never know when an idea is going to get thrown out there that is not only a good idea but one that doesn't require much work so going off the beaten or chosen path a little can be a good thing.

 

Korrode's idea as I understand it doesn't (or isn't supposed too) require rostos either. Quick PK can be done in KF but thats not all Korr's idea was about. The fact that a lot of people aren't going to KF for that quick PK (look at all the times people say OMFG pk is dead) makes using KF for quick skirmishes a moot point imo. (again, different from yours but that's OK, I'm not putting you down or attacking or flaming because of it.) What you mentioned about people squashing people as soon as they get into KF was good point considering it looks like Radu wants to implement Korr's idea w/ a bot. Radu already mentioned the bot being able to do something about people who interfere w/ pvp instancers so we'll see how that goes maybe one thing will inadvertently solve another.

 

@Radu, That wasn't a put down of your idea but I get where you are coming from. As long as we are talking about it though, what's to keep what I said from happening? I know that with your idea there will be an option to deny a fight if you don't like the team you go up against, but what happens after that if there is no other team to instance against? You didn't say or imply it but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Maybe there is part of the idea that I'm not understanding?

[Maxine]

Can you elaborate a bit more on where the bot(s) are going to be and how it's going to work?

The bot would be in KF, or whatever map is decided.

 

Are you intending for the teams to start at opposite sides of KF? or right next to each other?

Why start at opposite ends? Wouldn't matter anyway. They will start both at the same location, however they will not be allowed to attack each other until the bot gives the starting signal (in about 30 seconds or so).

 

What if someone flees in an attempt to buy time to restore mana and then you've got the teams split up a bit and there's 2 battles going on outside sight range of each other, how will the bot monitor it all for interference?

 

The bot would be unable to monitor that, but if that happens and we get reports of it happening, I'll take action against those who break the rules.

 

Is there some way a bot can montior all combat happening in the whole of KF that i'm unaware of?

Nope. But it can also monitor channel 6 for PK deaths messages.

 

Anyway, if it turns out to be a big problem, I am sure we can move it to some other place.

 

I have monitored quite a few pk battles in kf, and have a few comments based on that:

It is impossible to monitor a fight without standing almost in the middle of it, have true sight on and read all the local messages.

 

Most interferences never shows up on ch 6, since it doesn't result in deaths:

people using magic

summons

ranging

being in the way

brod

...

 

If you are going to have to act on all reports of interference you will be a very busy man, and it will be after the fact, the item will already be destroyed, the battle already won/lost -> the fun spoiled. How will regular visitors of kf be able to see that this is an instance fight going on?

 

I still don't see how a relatively low level inexperienced pk-er would be able to participate. Apart from the hazards of other players, kf also has fluffies and chims.

[Dilly]

Disclaimer: not a PKer, but i know people and I know the EL community´s habbits.

 

In an ideal world, either system would work, in which case, Radu's idea for team making would be just as good as random queing. Unfortunately, in EL, people single out someone en masse, already when they have a different opinion. That´s the downside of having such a small number of players.. we all think we know everybody else, and we all tend to have very outspoken opinions, often based on silly things like falsely spread rumors, what guild someone is in and whether or not they once were spotted being friendly with a 'dishonorable outlawy person'.

 

People will absolutely refuse to team with a whole bunch of others because the levels aren't to their liking, because they aren't 'true PKers' or ´zomfg ur teh sux!!1!', which will only result in teams not filling up, or it will take far too long for everyone to be happy.

 

I LOVE the idea of PVP instances, but I really think that opting for the more random option (= have ceiling cat make teams) will make them a lot more succesfull. People can still decide to leave the instance if they really don't like who they find in there, but you could add a timepenalty for leaving the instance before the fight even started (and no option to buy off the time-out).

 

On the other hand.. I'd love to be proven wrong and see that EL players actually can make this work

Edited May 14, 2011 by Dilly

[Entropy]

@Radu, That wasn't a put down of your idea but I get where you are coming from. As long as we are talking about it though, what's to keep what I said from happening? I know that with your idea there will be an option to deny a fight if you don't like the team you go up against, but what happens after that if there is no other team to instance against? You didn't say or imply it but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Maybe there is part of the idea that I'm not understanding?

 

Obviously, if people like this idea, there will be many teams, since a team can only hold so many players (5-10). If a team is invincible, it will dissolve, because no one will want to fight them.

[Torg]

@#$%#^# - Just spent 30 mins replying to this and my computer rebooted. :-S

 

So... a summary: (edit: ok... maybe not a summary)

 

I think lots of people have missed the point with Ent's idea. There can be many teams put together that can challenge each other, if a team that is too strong challenges you then you say no, but there are enough people interested in fighting that between us all several teams should be able to be put together.

 

Ent's idea is a good one, but I think is very expensive if fighting for 30 mins? How long would it take for lower levels to get the gc or make the items (ess, etc). One week, more? All for a 30+ minute fight. Sure, it might be fun, but only once.

 

That said, in a capture the flag type challenge, maybe it would evolve to not be about the fight as such and more about the gameplay. Maybe taking tele ess would be better than taking att/def ess?

 

 

-------

 

 

Ent doesn't dislike Korr's idea, he just sees problems with it and doesn't want to spend time coding it into the server so he wants it proven with bots first. I also like the idea so have coded the bots.

 

The idea is that matches will be as closely balanced as possible by randomising the teams. Depending on the strength of the algorithm this should balance reasonably well, but the bots can't know what gear people are bringing so that might provide an in-balance to the teams. This should be minor though.

 

The concerns about guildies being placed on opposite teams I'm sure will be dealt with by people either mentioning on their guild channel that they are joining the queue (and thus anyone else not joining) or by agreeing that it's all good cos it's just a bit of fun.

 

I can overcome the concerns about people who are causing troubles by coding either a blacklist (needs to be monitored to prevent abuse) or possibly a system where you flag players you don't want to play with (more complex) into the bots.

 

The map that has been chosen is one that can only be accessed by being teleported to it. It also has no exits so you must teleport/ring/beam off it. This is to ensure the security of the match, as a safe way for people to have some fun PKing. Hopefully it will encourage people who don't want to get nuked by someone much higher as soon as they enter an map/arena to try some PK. However, there are problems with ensuring the security of the map when it is run by bots:

 

Whoever is left alive when the match finishes needs to leave the map. If they don't have ess/rings and can't Beam then they are trapped. This occurred during testing so it does need to be dealt with.

This brings up the next point, how do the bots know the end of the match? The bots monitor channel 6 for death messages to check when the match ends, but this doesn't allow for people that teleport off the map. At the moment a timeout is used to finish a match to deal with this. However, the timeout still doesn't ensure the security of the map.

 

My feeling is, in order to handle this with bots and ensure the security of the map, the bots need to be allowed to teleport anyone not known to be dead to Beam at the end of the match. Anyone that teleported off early will just have to suffer the consequences of being disruptive by being stopped temporarily from whatever they were doing after the match.

 

This would be much more straightforward if coded on the server as the match status would be intrinsically known, but I think it is possible to trial this with bots. My biggest concern is that it will be abused by people staying on the map at the end of the match if there is not a system to teleport them off.

 

 

-------

 

 

I personally feel that EL will be better off if both systems are implemented as they are designed to cover different types of game play. Yes, parts of both can be done with the existing maps and arenas, but there is nothing that enforces the security and rules of each idea in the game currently.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Torg

[Tico]

I couldnt read every posts and every ideas everyone postes so i wont criticize anything.

 

I think both radu/korrodes ideas are good in their basics and anything like that that come available in EL will be awsome, as the instances became.

 

It will give us real action times to times and the game will become even funnier then it is...

 

In the last 2 years all we hear in EL is "PK is dead", so Radu, congratz on your iniciative, ill enjoy anything that comes from this posts, no matter which features rules etc u choose.

 

Regards