PVP instances

[Entropy]

This idea is based on some conversations we had last night in channel 6, partially spawned by this thread: http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=55211

 

Anyway, to summarize the conversation:

1. There will be an NPC, similar to Ilie.

2. People make two teams.

3. ????

4. Profit

4. The teams go to an instance, and fight each other in a Capture the Flag type game.

5. The team that survives (at least 1 player not dead while the other team has no players left) wins.

6. There is no penalty for death, but when you die you GTFO. Rostogols won't work like they do in normal instances.

7. The winning team gets a prize (exp and possibly some GC).

 

The only thing unclear to me is step 3. How do you plan to make the teams, tell the NPC which team you want to fight, have all the members in each team agree, etc, etc. This has to be done in a way that:

a. Will prevent cheating.

b. Will prevent congestions (if 4 teams go at the NPC at the same time)

c. Will prevent griefing (purposefully trying to join a team or get in the way, even though the other team members don't want that)

 

So tell me exactly how you would want that done.

[Nova]

just randomizing all the people who sign up into 2 teams won't work?

[carolus999]

maybe evrybody join the same channel,they talk to the npc, he teleport you in and give your name a color,like team red and blue?(dont know this good idea just was thinking to post it)

 

 

 

 

 

--termi

[Entropy]

The idea is to pick your team.

[Caliphear]

In another game i play which is very similar to this, your team joins "team channel" and it randomly chooses your opponents team matching you up with a team of the same level. So i think if you have a channel for each team then talk to the npc, it would work.Just like the instances only both teams go to the same map.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Caliphear

[Entropy]

Yes, but how do teams agree to fight? Every member agrees, or what?

[Caliphear]

Yes, but how do teams agree to fight? Every member agrees, or what?

The way other game does it might be too hard to do for el. but its computer chosen. you invite players onto your team which puts you into a team chat.they pick their champions they want to play.You then lock your choice of champs in. once locked in, the game adds everyones level together and finds another team with similar levels and send the 2 teams to a map.

 

For el i think it would have to be done along the lines of standing on the carpet and talking to the npc to set your team being in the same chat. Then the other team would have to do so also. Once "locked" into teams all go to the carpet and talk to the npc to be transported onto the map?

 

Ofc you would have to have an option for 3v3, 5v5, or instance. And just a suggestion, it would be fun to be able to hide and be strategic not just an empty map and fight.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Caliphear

[Firstknight]

how about team capes, each team has a leader, the leaders talk to the npc.

 

not sure how hard it is to code a specail cape. but i can see alot of thing you can do with one.

 

bag capes (only people with the cape can open the bag for guild events)

 

event capes ( the npc only see the cape )

 

war capes ( only attack player with an enemy cape)

 

game capes ( i see this opening up a bunch of options )

 

just a few thought

Edited May 5, 2011 by Firstknight

[Entropy]

how about team capes, each team has a leader, the leaders talk to the npc.

Umm, and the game knows that a team has a leader how?

 

not sure how hard it is to code a specail cape. but i can see alot of thing you can do with one.

 

bag capes (only people with the cape can open the bag for guild events)

 

event capes ( the npc only see the cape )

 

war capes ( only attack player with an enemy cape)

 

game capes ( i see this opening up a bunch of options )

 

just a few thought

Those suggestions address which exact issue that I asked feedback for here?

[Firstknight]

how about team capes, each team has a leader, the leaders talk to the npc.

Umm, and the game knows that a team has a leader how?

 

team leader cape or scroll- the leader could add team members names too

[Entropy]

This is the reason why I asked for suggestions. You did not mention a team leader cape before.

[nixxy4ever]

could you not have an npc where 1 person can buy a pack of scrolls (4). say your the npc. A player comes up to you, you have an option of something like 'apply for instance' and in their inventory will appear the 4 scrolls. these are then handed out to the additional 3 people who are in the team and they go to a building the you are standing outside of, like the ranging arena, all 4 people enter this building and they go up to a table with an npc that describes what is going to happen but thats it. when the team is ready, you use the scroll with the table, the scroll disappears and you enter a room. when all 4 are in the door will be unlocked and you enter your starting zone.

[Entropy]

I think the ebst solution would be to have the teams join a guild. I removed the leaving guild time penalty, so now people can make guilds for this purpose, and join them as needed.

[nixxy4ever]

could you not have a special instance guild that expired after 1 game day? you can stay in same guild but do something like #join_iguild [number]

[Entropy]

You are very generous with my time.

[Wizzy]

I think the ebst solution would be to have the teams join a guild. I removed the leaving guild time penalty, so now people can make guilds for this purpose, and join them as needed.

 

Probably the easiest way, and since most guilds have bots that rank high, and have auto #kick_me/ #accept_me commands, to join/leave the guild (as long as you are on that list) The time limit really has little importance to its original intention.

[Aislinn]

I'm curious why the

Most important part: Random team queuing. (This means 5 people (or 2 for that matter) who're all on chars custom built for the PvP instancing can not group up and always be on the same team together)

was rejected.

Not only would it eliminate a fair number of problems but I thought that was an integral part of the idea?

[korrode]

Personally I don't like the guild thing idea. The whole point of the suggestion is to provide fast, easy access to (fairly) balanced team-based PvP.

 

The only thing unclear to me is step 3. How do you plan to make the teams, tell the NPC which team you want to fight, have all the members in each team agree, etc, etc. This has to be done in a way that:

It depends what degree of GUI interface can be made for it.

 

For a text only solution, although fairly convoluted, it could be done with a command that, once your team has been to the NPC and queued, listed all other currently queued teams with some details, and another command that allowed each team member to state their willingness to fight a particular team.

 

Example:

 

Team members all get in a channel and goto the NPC and "queue".

 

All team members do the #pkinstlist command and get an output something like this:

978     Members:4    CombatRating:489
692     Members:9    CombatRating:1549
152     Members:6    CombatRating:712
239     Members:2    CombatRating:407

(The number at the start is a randomly generated group identifier (which i'll refer to as "GID" from here on))

 

Now each member of the team has 2 commands they can use:

 

#pkinstaccept GID

#pkinstunaccept GID

 

(The only parameter these commands will take other than an existing GID is "all")

 

The first command signifies that a team member is willing to fight the corresponding opponent team.

The second command retracts that willingness (having this command exist is optional)

 

When all members of 2 teams have set a willingness to fight each other, instances begins.

 

For a GUI interface, it's the same basic info getting displayed but ofc you'd have checkboxes or something to signify willingness to fight another team.

 

 

EDIT:

I'm curious why the

Most important part: Random team queuing. (This means 5 people (or 2 for that matter) who're all on chars custom built for the PvP instancing can not group up and always be on the same team together)

was rejected.

Not only would it eliminate a fair number of problems but I thought that was an integral part of the idea?

Radu said (i'm paraphrasing here) he believes it will get used more by the existing playerbase if people can go with their friends (random queuing requires a bigger playerbase with more already-PK'ers). Personally I still think random queuing and the balance and extreme usage ease it provides would be best even for the current playerbase. Radu seems set on the initial implementation being non-random (he did say he'd consider adding random one later), and he made some proposals that do help to address some of what the random queuing was there to address... and something is better than nothing so w/e :>

Edited May 6, 2011 by Korrode

[Aislinn]

1. Good thing that was discussed in @6 where everyone obviously is, so we can all make educated and informed posts.

 

2. I disagree with picking your friends making it more used. I hear the constant attempts to search for instances now with buddies, it's hard to get everyone together at the same time. Also, it limits your options, takes a long time to get people organized and together, and ends up being the same gangs guilds nobody else wants to fight anyway. Things are too cliquey here for that to work long term, in my opinion. Again, I think if you have a mechanism to remove the occasional griefer, random team selection is better. Plus I don't think people should have to leave their guilds to participate. Even with the penalty time removed, it can be a pita to find a high ranking person on when you need them and want to rejoin.

[korrode]

I hear the constant attempts to search for instances now with buddies, it's hard to get everyone together at the same time. Also, it limits your options, takes a long time to get people organized and together, and ends up being the same gangs guilds nobody else wants to fight anyway. Things are too cliquey here for that to work long term, in my opinion. Again, I think if you have a mechanism to remove the occasional griefer, random team selection is better. Plus I don't think people should have to leave their guilds to participate. Even with the penalty time removed, it can be a pita to find a high ranking person on when you need them and want to rejoin.

Indeed. I do hope Radu will reconsider...

[Entropy]

While there are some advantages with random selection, there are much more disadvantages:

1. No prior planning and strategy possible.

2. No way of communicating on Skype or other VOIP platforms to coordinate attacks and defense tactics in real time.

3. People will be pissed if they get teamed up with 'undesirable' players.

4. No way to control the balance of the teams. The server can't do a really good matching, the way humans can. For example, a team can get no rangers, etc.

5. No way to adapt to your opponents. If you don't know who you are going to fight with, you can't prepare adequately.

6. Might get teamed up against a friend or guildie. Some people don't like that.

7. Would be a lot of work for me to make it so that you can attack guildies in the pvp instance, while at the same time your summons won't attack people in your team.

8. Can't bring people to act as mules (since you have no idea which team the mule will end up to. Or a team might end up only with mules).

9. No possibility to make top teams (and team statistics) and stuff available on the website. Also, no possibility to make tournaments.

[Entropy]

Other disadvantages:

10. No honor. If a player or team plays dirty (for example, does not obey equipment rules, or other player made rules) he can't be excluded from the pvp instances.

11. If a player is not semi permanently affiliated with a team, it is less likely that player will be loyal to the team. They can log out, or switch sides, whatever.

[Aislinn]

1. I think that is a good thing. Element of surprise, of "what are we going to get this time?"

2. Why not? People either have skype or not anyway.

3. Other than known griefers, why would they be pissed? If a player is in the right stats range, logic dictates it's in his best interest to cooperate for the length of the instance.

4. Again, luck of the draw and it will be different next time. Randomness ftw.

5. Without these unknown quantities, nothing would be any different than what we have already...guild vs guild, same old fighting same old.

6. I would expect this would be worked out and discussed within guilds before people signed up.

7. Fair point, only you can decide how much work is worth the end result. Remember most people offering ideas have no idea what is actually involved in coding.

8. Well no mules then Or take a gamble.

9. Are statistics really necessary? Why no tournaments? I could see tournaments easily, each winning team plays another winning team until there are two finalist teams (all randomly selected each time from the pool of players on winning teams. Again it's in everyone's best interest to do their best to be in the final team.

[Entropy]

1. I think that is a good thing. Element of surprise, of "what are we going to get this time?"

What does surprise have to do with lack of prior strategy and tactics? Personally, I would think tactics is a very important and cool part.

 

2. Why not? People either have skype or not anyway.

Umm, many people don't feel like giving their Skype ID to everyone. And by the time you get everyone's Skype ID, add them make a Skype session for everyone, etc. the fight can be over.

 

3. Other than known griefers, why would they be pissed? If a player is in the right stats range, logic dictates it's in his best interest to cooperate for the length of the instance.

Would you like to end up with Morath? Or how about someone new, not very powerful? He will get blamed for his team loss.

 

4. Again, luck of the draw and it will be different next time. Randomness ftw.

I thought many people don't like the luck factor. that's why many fighters get Skeptic.

 

5. Without these unknown quantities, nothing would be any different than what we have already...guild vs guild, same old fighting same old.

Not at all, there would be different rules and stuff.

 

6. I would expect this would be worked out and discussed within guilds before people signed up.

How?

 

8. Well no mules then Or take a gamble.

No mules mean short fights. Would be nice for the fights to last at least 30 minutes, if not more.

 

9. Are statistics really necessary? Why no tournaments? I could see tournaments easily, each winning team plays another winning team until there are two finalist teams (all randomly selected each time from the pool of players on winning teams. Again it's in everyone's best interest to do their best to be in the final team.

 

Statistics are not a necessity, but are nice. And you can't have tournaments if you don't have fixed teams. And how do you decide which players will go to the instance anyway? Wht prevents someone like Morath from sneaking in?

[Aislinn]

I still think a method to get a griefer off the team should be implemented. I can't imagine it would be abused or you stand to lose the instance if you are short people on a random whim.

But if a known deadbeat who has no other intention than to mess it up joins (think brod, or somebody who goes unequipped and just stands there and literally does nothing), there should be a way to remove that person asap.

 

Too much planning will kill the instance and take way too long, and now you have 2 teams you have to find and organize and prepare and strategize with...People want to PvP NOW, not a week from now. And probably want some variety, I see it this way with 2 or 3 teams that never change.

 

Variety is the spice of life