About some formulas

[Rehdon]

I'm always on the look for new things to build and new skills in EL, even if I still can't/don't plan to build or learn them. Lately some of the new formulas for engineering and the one for spear left me scratching my head:

 

Nails

 

This is an unspecified quantity, so the fact that 2 iron bars are required will be justified if not too many nails will be required for other objects/building. Only 7 xp seems a bit few IMHO, should be raised a little, it would also cover the gap between nails and saltpetre.

 

Caltrop/Poisoned caltrop

 

Basically these are retorted metal wires/fragments IRL, why should death essences be needed (in such a quantity, at least) to build them? I reduce or get rid of them altogether for caltrops, leaving 1-2 for poisoned caltrops.

 

Snare

 

This also is puzzling IMHO, why 6 magic essences to build a snare?

 

Dung

 

Since I'm on it, it feels weird that you have to have harvest level 80 or more to harvest (in an effective way) ... dung!!!

 

Spear

 

The spear was a very simple weapon to build, and for a long time it was the typical weapon of the low rank warrior, as swords and shield were too expensive to be mass produced. But the required ingredients in EL are those of very high end swords: 1 Wooden Staff, 2 Titanium Bars, 1 Steel Bar, 2 Wolfram Bars, 2 Serpent Stones, 30 Fire Essences. I really can't make sense of this, why all that very precious wolfram? why the serpent stones? The formula for a basic spear I'd suggest would be 1 Wooden Staff, 2 Steel Bar, 5 leather; of course the stats would be completely different, especially wrt damage (as they are now they don't make it a a very attractive weapon IMHO, so requiring all that stuff is even more strange). More expensive/rare ingredients could then be required for more powerful kind of spears.

 

 

Note that I'm not complaining just for the sake of having easier stuff to produce: I know engineering is supposed to be an expensive and requiring skill, but that can be accomplished in other ways. You could raise the nexus required to build some items, for instance, perhaps adding some magic nexus for high-end items as well. Books are already expensive for engineering, so that's not a beginner skill anyway.

 

And I know that the game doesn't have to be 100% realistic, which would be impossible and not very fun probably, but when some features/items are too far from reality (or even the shared "vision" of non-real items, such as magic objects) producing/using them leaves me, and I suppose others, a bit uncomfortable with them, a feeling of artificiality which detracts from gameplay.

 

Well, end of rant, nothing to see here, move along

 

Rehdon

[Usl]

Caltrop/Poisoned caltrop

 

Basically these are retorted metal wires/fragments IRL, why should death essences be needed (in such a quantity, at least) to build them? I reduce or get rid of them altogether for caltrops, leaving 1-2 for poisoned caltrops.

The connection between death essences and poison is established; I think you could still have 1-2 for non-poisoned caltrops because of the connection to the "deadly" purpose of such devices... but it would be better, in role playing terms, to have no death essences for simple caltrops, but require some special tool, e.g. an iron rod or special mold for producing both types.

 

Snare

 

This also is puzzling IMHO, why 6 magic essences to build a snare?

This escapes me as well

 

Dung

 

Since I'm on it, it feels weird that you have to have harvest level 80 or more to harvest (in an effective way) ... dung!!!

There is some reason for this, because dung was actually processed in a rather complicated way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate#Manufacture) which is "hidden" in EL under the high harvest level. As frustrating as it is to harvest dung, I would keep the current high requirement to simulate the long processing.

 

Spear

 

The spear was a very simple weapon to build, and for a long time it was the typical weapon of the low rank warrior, as swords and shield were too expensive to be mass produced. But the required ingredients in EL are those of very high end swords: 1 Wooden Staff, 2 Titanium Bars, 1 Steel Bar, 2 Wolfram Bars, 2 Serpent Stones, 30 Fire Essences. I really can't make sense of this, why all that very precious wolfram? why the serpent stones? The formula for a basic spear I'd suggest would be 1 Wooden Staff, 2 Steel Bar, 5 leather; of course the stats would be completely different, especially wrt damage (as they are now they don't make it a a very attractive weapon IMHO, so requiring all that stuff is even more strange). More expensive/rare ingredients could then be required for more powerful kind of spears.

I am totally with you on this one. Spears should be very easy to build: 1 wooden staff, 3 leather, 2 iron bars, 3 fire essences (and possibly a mold to prepare the head). Spears date back from the Bronze Age, they cannot be that complicated -- the formula seems to come out from macro-economics theory rather than from a history book In the interest of role playing, simple (and maybe ineffective against anything at or above leather armour) and cheap spears could be introduced.

Then we could have different versions, e.g. obsidian head, javelins, halbards... or maybe, we could be able to poison the head (the same idea could apply to arrows), etc. But a basic spear, accessible to new players, would make for a better role playing (IMHO, of course).

[bkc56]

There is some reason for this, because dung was actually processed in a rather complicated way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate#Manufacture) which is "hidden" in EL under the high harvest level. As frustrating as it is to harvest dung, I would keep the current high requirement to simulate the long processing.

Except that the processing of dung -> saltpeter (potassium nitrate) happens in the engineering skill, not when it's harvested.

[Learner]

There is some reason for this, because dung was actually processed in a rather complicated way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate#Manufacture) which is "hidden" in EL under the high harvest level. As frustrating as it is to harvest dung, I would keep the current high requirement to simulate the long processing.

Except that the processing of dung -> saltpeter (potassium nitrate) happens in the engineering skill, not when it's harvested.

I think Entropy has a partial purification going on during harvesting, and he's taking a shortcut also. In reality you aren't harvesting the dung, just some of the components found in the dung heaps.

[Usl]

There is some reason for this, because dung was actually processed in a rather complicated way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate#Manufacture) which is "hidden" in EL under the high harvest level. As frustrating as it is to harvest dung, I would keep the current high requirement to simulate the long processing.

Except that the processing of dung -> saltpeter (potassium nitrate) happens in the engineering skill, not when it's harvested.

We don't model long mixing procedures in EL; here we have shifted the time factor (in reality, heaps of dung would be worked over for months) from the processing proper to the harvesting phase. As long as dung is only used in the manifacture of saltpeter, I believe this is a pretty reasonable compromise.

[Rehdon]

The connection between death essences and poison is established; I think you could still have 1-2 for non-poisoned caltrops because of the connection to the "deadly" purpose of such devices... but it would be better, in role playing terms, to have no death essences for simple caltrops, but require some special tool, e.g. an iron rod or special mold for producing both types.

 

Agreed on all counts, in fact I suggested to leave death essences in the poisoned caltrop formula.

 

I am totally with you on this one. Spears should be very easy to build: 1 wooden staff, 3 leather, 2 iron bars, 3 fire essences (and possibly a mold to prepare the head).

 

Forgot about the fire essences , and of course you should have iron spearheads besides (and before) steel ones.

 

Spears date back from the Bronze Age, they cannot be that complicated -- the formula seems to come out from macro-economics theory rather than from a history book In the interest of role playing, simple (and maybe ineffective against anything at or above leather armour) and cheap spears could be introduced.

Then we could have different versions, e.g. obsidian head, javelins, halbards... or maybe, we could be able to poison the head (the same idea could apply to arrows), etc. But a basic spear, accessible to new players, would make for a better role playing (IMHO, of course).

 

Agreed again. Funny that you mention obsidian, because spears actually go back to the stone age, stone spears and axes were the very first "complex" (= different from rough stone tools/knives) weapons to be made.

 

I'm not so keen on making spears ineffective with armors better than leather, because they actually were a very effective weapon.

 

As concerns "poisoned" spears and other weapons you could possible add a spell to that effect, don't know if it's already been suggested or not.

 

Rehdon

[Khalai]

If I am not mistaken, then well trained pikemen were one of the most dangerous military units. Remember about greek phalanx or roman legionnaires. So I do not see the reason, why spears, pilums and pikes should be considered a low quality weapon. 7 feet long spear can be far more dangerous in the hand of a trained soldier than a sword.

[Sayre]

Firstly, I don't think the issue is the quality or effectiveness of the weapon, rather it is the nature of the ingredients being used to make the weapon.

 

Second, facing a single fighter with a spear is somewhat different to facing a well organised phalanx in formation. A spear wielded by a single person in combat is limited to only a few effective movements in attack (thrust/sweep)while being limited by weight and centre of mass/torque issues, and is not generally considered an ideal weapon against someone with a sword and shield.

 

S.

[Rehdon]

If I am not mistaken, then well trained pikemen were one of the most dangerous military units. Remember about greek phalanx or roman legionnaires. So I do not see the reason, why spears, pilums and pikes should be considered a low quality weapon. 7 feet long spear can be far more dangerous in the hand of a trained soldier than a sword.

 

Well trained pikemen were one of the factors leading to the demise of medieval cavalry, but, as Spleenfeeder noted, that's not the issue here

 

You also have to distinguish from different kind of spears, the basic one we were thinking of is surely not the most powerful one: this way you could have more kind of spears (as you can for swords).

 

Rehdon

[Grimnir]

I would also be interested in seeing different classes of spears, reflected by the different materials required for making them (and different levels required to wield them). True enough, a hunting spear could be made by joining a sharp rock to a stick with some strips of leather; but the stone age people who typically wielded such weapons were not the same kinds of warriors as those who stood in the Greek ranks ... or the Norse ranks a thousand years later ... nor were these the same kinds of spears. We already have different classes of swords in this game - I think having different classes of polearms would add an interesting level of complexity.

[Rehdon]

There is some reason for this, because dung was actually processed in a rather complicated way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate#Manufacture) which is "hidden" in EL under the high harvest level. As frustrating as it is to harvest dung, I would keep the current high requirement to simulate the long processing.

Except that the processing of dung -> saltpeter (potassium nitrate) happens in the engineering skill, not when it's harvested.

I think Entropy has a partial purification going on during harvesting, and he's taking a shortcut also. In reality you aren't harvesting the dung, just some of the components found in the dung heaps.

 

While I surely don't want to delve deeper in this matter (pun intended ) it feels a bit too difficult anyway. The explanation is reasonable, but perhaps the 80+ harvest level is (somewhat) higher than needed.

 

In any case, although this makes things clearer about harvesting dung, I wonder why the level of realism varies wildly between different objects/skills: see what I wrote about the spear; to quote an example wrt skills making blackpowder, strictly speaking, is a classic alchemist thing; harvesting tin and making bronze objects, moreover, shouldn't be harder than iron, for well known historical reasons; etc.[1]

 

I understand that the reason why these little inconsistencies creep in the game is due to its growing bit by bit, but I hope there will be a sort of object and skill reordering one day, I would gladly accept the inconvenience of it if it were to produce a better EL world.

 

Rehdon

 

[1] Forgot to mention the weirdest thing I've found so far in the game: mining minerals using swords! I'm sure there must be some reason for that, but couldn't come up with one yet ;D

Edited September 15, 2007 by Rehdon

[Khalai]

I understand that the reason why these little inconsistencies creep in the game is due to its growing bit by bit, but I hope there will be a sort of object and skill reordering one day, I would gladly accept the inconvenience of it if it were to produce a better EL world.

 

I'd like to see that reorganization too, but I highly doubt it will ever come.

 

Forgot to mention the weirdest thing I've found so far in the game: mining minerals using swords! I'm sure there must be some reason for that, but couldn't come up with one yet ;D

 

This was discussed to death, when hydrogenium was about to be implemented. It is clarified in Radu's blog.

[Rehdon]

I'd like to see that reorganization too, but I highly doubt it will ever come.

 

Never say ever But seriously, I think Ent hinted about it some time ago, so I believe it will happen sooner or later.

 

This was discussed to death, when hydrogenium was about to be implemented. It is clarified in Radu's blog.

 

Thanks, will dig it up out of curiosity.

 

Rehdon